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PA the only site to recognize J-R Fusion as Prog?

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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 05:33
Originally posted by Starshiper Starshiper wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

I don't know why you think you have to
explain to me what Terje Rypdal is about.
Do we discuss
jazz-rock as prog stuff? Though it would be too heretical to say on
these pages that Terje Rypdal is not prog at all as he got his entry in
the PA database, he is, in fact, an experimental jazz guitarist whose
best albums are ECM-style free jazz. I mind you that Manfred Eicher
produced only one ECM album as prog in his career, and that is David
Torn's 1987 Cloud About Mercury, an atypical ECM album that really can
be safely considered full-blown prog. On the other side, the Mahavishnu
Orchestra's high-energy jazz-rock is more like instrumental progressive
rock than jazz.

No I don't think of Terje Rypdal as Prog. We agree. If you actually read what I wrote every once in a while before replying, you would have known my take on this. But his 1971-1975 albums in particular are Jazz Rock Fusion to me (and several projects during the same era). I don't care if you agree or not. Your takes are are yours only, and certainly not mine. To my ears and many others ECM-albums like Chick Corea/Return to Forever, Priester's Love, Love, Liebman's Lookout Farm, Maupin's The Jewel in the Lotus, Waldron's The Call and many more are Jazz Rock Fusion. Many enough agree with me. Which isn't strange. Because it's correct.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 05:58
^ Of course you are correct, how could it be any other way? You are clearly the only one here with enough experience to say something intelligent about the subject. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Starshiper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 06:32
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Starshiper Starshiper wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

I don't know why you think you have to
explain to me what Terje Rypdal is about.
Do we discuss
jazz-rock as prog stuff? Though it would be too heretical to say on
these pages that Terje Rypdal is not prog at all as he got his entry in
the PA database, he is, in fact, an experimental jazz guitarist whose
best albums are ECM-style free jazz. I mind you that Manfred Eicher
produced only one ECM album as prog in his career, and that is David
Torn's 1987 Cloud About Mercury, an atypical ECM album that really can
be safely considered full-blown prog. On the other side, the Mahavishnu
Orchestra's high-energy jazz-rock is more like instrumental progressive
rock than jazz.
his 1971-1975 albums in particular are Jazz Rock Fusion to me (and several projects during the same era). I don't care if you agree or not.
It is not a matter of agreement. Terje Rypdal has never been prog like Mahavishnu Orchestra; rather, Rypdal's style of experimental fusion was always within the realm of jazz.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 06:57
^Lol. I agree that it's not a matter of agreement. I know who I am discussing with. I recognise you in the way you speak with certainty about things you have only a passing interest, or have very limited knowledge about*. Anyway, since you obviously don't really know much Terje Rypdal, here's a couple of nice examples for you (and everyone else). Btw, I laughed when I googled and found the one of the songs I was looking for with THAT introduction (you'll see it once you click on the video):





*and of course how lazily you read other people's post before you make your own reply. That's your signature style:)

Edited by Saperlipopette! - September 25 2024 at 07:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 07:10
Quote This is not based on personal opinion but a kind of consensus powerful enough to have an impact on how these things are generally seen.
When I listen to music, I'm always sceptical towards these sorta general consensuses amongst the powerful experts. It is seldom unbiased, and when there is a clear tendency for gatekeeping in the listenerbase of a particular genre (eg prog rock and classical), those powerful consensuses can be harmful for the musicians, who might subconsciously choose to follow the bogus rules set by some influential gatekeeping snob, instead of trusting their own imagination.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 07:11
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

^Lol. I agree that it's not a matter of agreement. I know who I am discussing with. I recognise you in the way you speak with certainty about things you have only a passing interest, or have very limited knowledge about*. Anyway, since you obviously don't really know much Terje Rypdal,

*and of course how lazily you read other people's post before you make your own reply. That's your signature style:)
Aren't personal insults (how I read this) against PA guidelines/rules?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 07:27
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

...
When I listen to music, I'm always sceptical towards these sorta general consensuses amongst the powerful experts. It is seldom unbiased, and when there is a clear tendency for gatekeeping in the listenerbase of a particular genre (eg prog rock and classical), those powerful consensuses can be harmful for the musicians, who might subconsciously choose to follow the bogus rules set by some influential gatekeeping snob, instead of trusting their own imagination.

Hi,

I imagine that most musicians that have enjoyed some attention in the public areas, be it concert, or sales, are smart enough to (often!!!) not pay too much attention to a lot of critics, and nowadays (specially!!!) the incredible number of fans, that ... one might even say they did not listen to anything except one song ... which is not likely to be true, but the attitude with which it is said/told, does not, generally, apply to much of anything the artists did, or does.

And that's the main difference. An artist or a "fan" ... I can see it now ... and what Picasso would say to you, or I, and any comments ... he was good at swearing and telling folks off! So was Dali, though he made fun of his critics!

Nothing that shows up on the Internet, should interfere with the musician's life and work ... it's almost like saying that the artist married the wrong blonde ... c'mon ... let folks have their choice ... but I think the artist has to stand up for himself/herself ... and in the past several years, let's say 30/40, women are the ones that have stood up the most ... and benefited from it.

PA is good, and PA is fine ... but we can not get away with thinking that we are not "fans" and that our comments are important ... they might be in another reality, but you really think a Frank Zappa, Robert Fripp and many "originals" care about what you and I say? Very doubtful ... they know what they are doing with their work ... and only their significant others might have a comment or two, but I do not think that Toyah spends her time commenting about KC's pieces ... as long as Robert has fun playing on her stuff!

We have to wake up to the reality ... just because you bought a Coca-Cola doesn't mean you can tell them to change their recipe for the drink ... we got to wake up to this reality, even though I would say that there are times when things do need some change ... but if the band/artist has no idea what is cotton and what is an idea,  or what it is solid rock ... then he/she will likely not get very far ... and this is where a lot of bands fall apart!

PS ... reminds me of early days of The Rolling Stone, that for many years made fun of Led Zeppelin, and their music in the first 2 or 3 albums ... and you think the group cared? They just went out and blew the magazine to shreds ... you have to know who you are and what you want to do. Nothing else matters regardless of how I feel about it!


Edited by moshkito - September 25 2024 at 07:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Starshiper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 07:39
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

^Lol. I agree that it's not a matter of agreement. I know who I am discussing with. I recognise you in the way you speak with certainty about things you have only a passing interest, or have very limited knowledge about*. Anyway, since you obviously don't really know much Terje Rypdal, here's a couple of nice examples for you (and everyone else). Btw, I laughed when I googled and found the one of the songs I was looking for with THAT introduction (you'll see it once you click on the video)
You can laugh or cry, but the owner and mastermind of ECM, Manfred Eicher, was very strict regarding the specific style of his label, and he only allowed David Torn to record a prog record for ECM. And that is the already mentioned "Cloud About Mercury." Terje Rypdal was indeed recording an experimental and interesting jazz fusion for ECM; no one denies that, but Manfred Eicher would never have allowed Rypdal's ethereal fusion to be organic enough to cross into the realm of prog, even if Rypdal might have once wanted it.

There are a number of "proggy" jazz fusion albums in the ECM catalog; for instance, Solstice by Ralph Towner (in PA as well) perhaps sounds more "proggy" in the typical sense of the term than any record by Terje Rypdal, but hey, you know what? "Proggy" doesn't mean prog... Ouch

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 07:43
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

PA is good, and PA is fine ... but we can not get away with thinking that we are not "fans" and that our comments are important ... they might be in another reality, but you really think a Frank Zappa, Robert Fripp and many "originals" care about what you and I say? Very doubtful ...
A few years ago, Guy Manning had a not so positive thread about him shut down. He even sent me a PM accusing me of posting something I never did. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 07:48
^^Don't take the words of ECM's owner for truth. What he claims have little relevance to what I hear. Try Love, Love or Lookout Farm. It's wonderful Jazz Rock Fusion (not Prog, but I never claimed it was).

Edited by Saperlipopette! - September 25 2024 at 07:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 08:10
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

^^Don't take the words of ECM's owner for truth. What he claims have little relevance to what I hear. Try Love, Love or Lookout Farm. It's wonderful Jazz Rock Fusion (not Prog, but I never claimed it was).

Hi,

Story goes that Manfred Eicher had a "white room" and the musicians went in and came out with an album, and a lot of it was not pre-defined, or worked. A lot of it was just plain improvisation, and the only person I have ever read anything about against it, I think it was Steve Tibbetts. But Manfred kept what they did and released it. 

There is a lot of ECM that has this feeling of improvisation, and when you hear Jan Garbarek, Egberto Gismonti and many others ... these folks are/were magnificent improvisational players and they didn't care, or worry about who they played with.

Reminds me of Shankar (the violin player) and that special  concert and he was warming up with Bruce Springsteen ... and Bruce turns to him and goes ... what key are you in, man? ... and Shankar says ... you no worry about key, and just play and I join in!

Improvisation at its best ... and a proper person for the "white room". 

Terje Rypdal probably did some of those sessions ... and I like EOS (no one else has ever talked about it that I have seen!!!) which was likely improvised and for my ears it is the best "chamber music" album ever made ... the other person ... was David Darling, who was also known for improvisations. Oh, btw, skip the first cut or you will not listen to the album!!!!


Edited by moshkito - September 25 2024 at 08:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 08:16
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

PA is good, and PA is fine ... but we can not get away with thinking that we are not "fans" and that our comments are important ... they might be in another reality, but you really think a Frank Zappa, Robert Fripp and many "originals" care about what you and I say? Very doubtful ... they know what they are doing with their work ...
I'd rather none of them ever read any of my comments. I wouldn't want them to care about me or anyone here. I'm here as a passionate music lover. Often procastinating, always improvising and making things up as I'm typing without any plan or thought behind what I'm going to write. Maybe I'm reacting to claims or takes I agree or disagree with or whatever. I have opinions about music. Most of the time worthless takes. Just like the rest of you. But I can place them here:). When old threads are ressurected and I stumble over comments I've posted years ago, I've always forgotten all about them and I'm often embarrassed by what I've written. I don't even want the future me to see my comments:). The best I can hope for is improving my english skills, clearing my head and get better at explaining myself. In addition to learning about artists I was previously unaware of (of course). The artists we discuss should focus on their art. Not us.

Edited by Saperlipopette! - September 25 2024 at 12:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Starshiper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 08:24
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

/......./ I like EOS (no one else has ever talked about it that I have seen!!!) which was likely improvised and for my ears it is the best "chamber music" album ever made ... the other person ... was David Darling, who was also known for improvisations. Oh, btw, skip the first cut or you will not listen to the album!!!!
I bought "Eos" upon its release, and I like it [regarding Dave Darling himself, I would recommend his album "Cycles"].
However, I believe that "Per Ulv" from 1978 is Terje Rypdal's most "proggy" track:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 09:43
The great thing about RYM and its multiple tagging system is that ANYONE can vote on a primary or secondary genre that can paint a more detailed description of any particular album. While that can be biased with a very few votes, the albums that have hundreds of votes by rabid music addicts are quite accurate and revealing.

Many of Terje Rypdal's albums incorporate progressive rock into the jazz rock / fusion. Adding to the rock elements are also elements of progressive folk and psychedelic rock.

Take Rypdal's debut BLEAK HOUSE for example.
Primary genres: Jazz Rock, Jazz Fusion
Secondary genres: Psychedelic Rock, Progressive Rock, Progressive Folk, Post-Bop

It's hilarious to watch the arguments on this thread when usually both parties arguing are correct to some degree. Jazz fusion is not prog per se but prog related. They are closely related but separate entities.

As far as Rypdal goes, true there are PURE jazz albums with no rock but he definitely had albums with rock integrated into the mix. He also crossed into third stream, ambient, funk and chamber music at times.

Fusion means fusion with something else. Prog rock was definitely one of those something elses.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 09:54
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

PA is good, and PA is fine ... but we can not get away with thinking that we are not "fans" and that our comments are important ... they might be in another reality, but you really think a Frank Zappa, Robert Fripp and many "originals" care about what you and I say? Very doubtful ...
A few years ago, Guy Manning had a not so positive thread about him shut down. He even sent me a PM accusing me of posting something I never did. Wink

HI,

These days this is not a surprise, however, since there are no downloads or exchanges taking place, someone not happy with the comment and asking to shut down a thread ... is likely to not get a proper response, depending on the standing of the website and nature of their work.

When posting music, as is the case in the toob, yeah, the artist has the ability to ask for it to be taken down as Robert Fripp and many others have done. But I don't think that Robert is so messed up as to ask a thread at PA to be shut down and taken out ... so a smaller artist not being good enough to stand by their music and post something else, I am not sure that it is the right thing to do.

Over the years, I have had some folks contrary to my opinions, and in some cases I have cleaned up the posting based on their comments, because they were "on point" and polite.  But, in general, I can stand up for myself, as my thoughts, and ideas on the arts are ... I suspect ... a bit more extensive than some in that I can compare film, theater and rock music within the last 50 years (let's say) and provide a point that otherwise is ... possibly ignored ... case in point the thread on ELP being over the top ... there weren't many films, theater productions and literature 50 years ago that were NOT over the top, so criticizing ELP for it, I imagine is a lack of appreciation for the arts at the time.

And, in my view of things, these ideas are very consistent ... and not based on the ideas of a numbered and ranked piece of music these days, which is something that this generation has never seen or appreciated. Progressive, and many of us here, came up in the days of Nureyev, Misha (Baryshnikov) and a lot of really big names in classical music, like Bernstein, Ozawa, Karajahn, Fonteyn, Callas, Nilsson, Tebaldi,  and so many others, so someone thinking that ELP was over the top, FOR ME, is sort of not taking in consideration the times and places where so much of these things took place, which was the big cities, since the small towns very often had never seen "ballet" done with the international feel, like you did in the big city.

It's a tough area to control, these days ... with many folks being more abusive than they should be in regards to the arts, or what I call a "trumpian" attitude to something they don't like, with little respect for its being shown, and the arts always had this issue ... but I really think that the best artists stick to their work, and the only opinion that matters for them might be their significant others and close friends they work with.

I like to say, that I "write for myself", and thus, a comment can not (very often) interfere with that specific moment in time that I described, thus a comment ... is quite meaningless for me ... those folks never saw the "movie" in my head that brought it out ... how could they be an authority on it? See?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 09:54
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

As far as Rypdal goes, true there are PURE jazz albums with no rock but he definitely had albums with rock integrated into the mix.
If we're talking solo/bandleader albums: what are his PURE jazz albums again? I can't say I've ever come across any such album.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 10:15
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

...
A few years ago, Guy Manning had a not so positive thread about him shut down. He even sent me a PM accusing me of posting something I never did. Wink

Part 2

There is another side to this that is a bit on the scary side of things ... and it was on The Daily Doug thing ... who reported that Robert Fripp did not wish to be looked at or studied as he has many other musicians and works.

I'm not sure why ... really, although it is my opinion that there are times when DD is not exactly informed and helpful ... for example, a lot of comments about Chris Squire and some of the odd notes used, when there are some interviews where he explains the 5th string tuned to a lower octave, for example, for a good reason which shows up in a couple of pieces DD has done, and he commented on that note but couldn't explain it, including how it fit. Likewise the idea that Chris also used combination notes to create new sounds from them, which he also provides examples and how it was used ... all in all, it shows how creative he was and how thoughtful he was in terms of helping make the musical piece special ... when most bass players only count to 4 and stick to the drummer ... I like to say that the drummers here have to stick with Chris, for example!

But there are times, when it is clear that DD does not know what to say, and he reverts to some notes, or chords that he can show you on the piano ... which, at times, throws him off a lot as is the case with Keith Emerson more than once ... the transitions can be really confusing, but if DD has not sat through Rachel Flowers doing TARKUS on the piano, I am not sure that he can state, clearly, that in the end, this is an incredible piano concerto that was done in the style of the time and place, since no professor in any Uni would accept that as valuable ... and Keith made it stand up, and later we got to see even more about it.

I think that Robert Fripp looks at a lot of the KC catalog as his classical music ... and someone only commenting on the notes and chords of the piece and not its continuity and possible meaning, is a way to throw people off the very idea of the music itself ... and turn it into just another song that is considered "progressive" because it has these chord changes and odd notes and transitions ... in many ways that does not explain the pieces of music much and kind kills them for me ... it takes the "soul" out of the music for me many times.

When it comes to J-R fusion, I think it was something very valuable at the times ... jazz was very big in the 60's and there really was not a lot more places for them to go to, other than get electric, and take a role that had some rock moments in it, which we have called "fusion" ... I am not sure I like the wording myself, as I consider it a nature of how progressive a lot of music can be, in this case Jazz added Rock ... and just a week later, Rock added Jazz. It was a natural fit, that these days confuses a lot of people in making an effort to describe and place albums in their right location for fans to have a better idea of what it might sound like ... right now, there are times when ... many of us go ... what? You're kidding me!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 10:17
Originally posted by Starshiper Starshiper wrote:

There are a number of "proggy" jazz fusion albums in
the ECM catalog; for instance, Solstice by Ralph Towner (in PA as well) perhaps sounds more "proggy" in the typical sense of the term than any record by Terje Rypdal, but hey, you know what? "Proggy" doesn't mean prog... Ouch


Ralph Towner is a beast. Ana comes 22 years after Solstice and may well be his finest hour.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 10:25
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by Starshiper Starshiper wrote:

There are a number of "proggy" jazz fusion albums in
the ECM catalog; for instance, Solstice by Ralph Towner (in PA as well) perhaps sounds more "proggy" in the typical sense of the term than any record by Terje Rypdal, but hey, you know what? "Proggy" doesn't mean prog... Ouch


Ralph Towner is a beast. Ana comes 22 years after Solstice and may well be his finest hour.

Hi,

Likewise if you listen to Egberto Gismonti, in DANCA DAS CABECAS, SOLO, SOL DO MEIO DIA, it is totally acoustic and I call it welcome to my living room and there he goes ... it would fit as "jazz" a lot more than anything else, because it just goes and goes and goes ... beautifully so. And then you get NO CAIPIRA and you find jazz, meets bossa nova, meets classical, meets acoustic ... an amazing mix that defies description and I doubt that any place would be capable of explaining that album well at all ... thus making it an album that most folks won't listen to because any categorization of it is not clear in what you hear. 

And then there is SANFONA, and you get real fusion in my mind ... and incredible album, that is very satisfying, with an acoustic guitar (and in another piece piano) that shows something incredible, and a musician that is so classical in his approach to things that is difficult for us to sit and listen to.

And if that's not enough ... how can we call MAGICO fusion, jazz or anything else? A beautiful album ... that is a special listen for anyone that loves music ... 
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Jacob Schoolcraft View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jacob Schoolcraft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 11:24
If an artist expresses their personal opinions on a band or a specific style of music and their opinion is quite the opposite of people who show up at their gigs to see them play then those people can really get heated up. They might say..."Hey...I respected you...I came to your gigs...now you disappoint me:

I might be a musician but when I'm sitting listening to music I am no different than anybody else and either I like it or I don't. To me music is all about "feel". Or what it makes you feel. However it's a fact that a majority of people who respect your musicianship will be letdown if they discover that you don't prefer their favorite band. That's very sad.

As an artist you can be inspired to compose by nature. If you are in the forest ...near the ocean or in your backyard looking at the sky or the nightsky. You can create right on the spot when being exposed to nature's surroundings. In that sense you need to give up everything else. Turn off your phone...avoid gatherings or having friends around. Instead you, nature, and your instrument become one. You can write a Symphony which is inspiring that way.

Music is an art form that demands privacy and hours of devotion. It may turn out that your Symphony or Prog Rock suite is rewarding only to you and in the end it's pointless to promote yourself when your audience will be small regardless. You have to want to do it! It's fun! It gives you a good feeling.

It's always good to get back to your roots after being screwed by the music business. Think about when you took up an instrument and perhaps you were a child then. You worked your ass off to sound good ...to develop skill...but you weren't a whore for acceptance. Instead you were working towards something that sounded beautiful to your ears and was inspiring .

Imagine getting involved in the music business at age 18 though....and being surrounded by people who have little knowledge about music being a real art form and they want to make you force music to be something that it naturally isn't. They want to turn it into product regardless of how stupid it comes across. They want you to make music that is just made up B.S. and completely contrived. They are not the art form. They are responsible for musicians watering down Jazz...commercialized Rock in the late 70s and 80s...ignoring Prog and never supporting it.

Edited by Jacob Schoolcraft - September 25 2024 at 11:32
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