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PA the only site to recognize J-R Fusion as Prog?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2024 at 21:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2024 at 22:46
''Prog rock'' as a term has become much more broader that it used to be in the 70's. Then ELP, Yes, Genesis and Tull were the full on prog bands that could be clearly differentiated. Floyd were not widely regarded as prog and people would have laughed at the suggestion that Supertramp were prog. The psyche bands and J/R fusion bands were their own thing. The 2 most valid categories of prog to me looking at a historical basis are Symphonic prog and Neo Prog. The rest is a mixture of experimental and metal while J/R is largely jazz based (duh!) and has a totally different attitude to me not caring for classical forms of music on which prog is based. The fact it's included as 'prog' doesn't bother me although I am still very puzzled that Steely Dan are put in this category next to RTF and Mahavishnu. And then there is post rock whatever that is Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2024 at 23:13
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Yes. Progressive Rock and Jazz-Rock/Jazz Fusion are different genres. Is there anyone on planet PA (apart from maybe Moshkito) that would disagree with that? Different, but more often than not, with tons of overlap. Canterbury Scene is also singled out as a separate or different genre. Every thinkable and unthinkable genre out there is. I don't really see the relevance.


If you for instance look at top 100 Jazz-Rock / Jazz Fusion albums all-time on RYM, only 20 of these 100 albums are also tagged as Progressive Rock or one of what RYM consider to be Prog sub-genres:

https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/all-time/g:jazz%2drock,jazz%2dfusion/ 

Well yes. They are not the same as we all agree. But it can be more or less similar in approach. And so? RYM even separates Jazz Rock and Jazz Fusion, so this does not directly compare. Anyway, none of Soft Machine first seven albums are tagged as Progressive Rock. But Canterbury Scene combined with Jazz-Rock Jazz Fusion, Psychedelic Rock, Experimental Rock... indicates some kind of Progressive Rock without the Progressive Rock tag:). Looking at a Hawkwind-album tagged: Space Rock, Hard Rock, Heavy Psych, Psychedelic Rock and Krautrock - you can expect it to have Progressive Rock qualities. But it will probably not sound anything like Yes.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2024 at 00:06
^ RYM can sometimes be perceived as the ultimate authority on all things music simply because they have so many users - but quantity does not necessarily imply quality. It depends on who these users are, and what their background is. Of course the more users participate in rating and tagging, the better, generally speaking, the result will be. But if most of these users are teenagers, the result may never be accurate, regardless of quantity. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2024 at 00:23
^I do not disagree to any of that. But RYM's model is just so much more presice than PA (which is what's being compared). Because it has the biggest online community of all the music sites, the wrongs added by uninformed teens or trolls - usually gets buried in the sheer amount of correct info. I very rarely come across information that proves to be totally wrong (something that in regards to genre tags, I experience at least 50% of the time on Discogs). When I do notice obvious wrongs, it's always extremely obscure albums/artists with very limited info. As long as I'm aware, it's not a big issue or an actual problem.

Edited by Saperlipopette! - September 19 2024 at 00:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2024 at 02:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2024 at 02:09
^ RYM is not the only music website with a more precise tagging system than PA ... pretty much all major prog websites are more precise, since they assign genres (at least) on the release level. Back in 2009 I debated this with M@x to no avail, one of the reasons why I left PA back then (and founded PF/AP) was this limitation.

I agree that RYM gets it right (or at least right enough) for most major releases, but the user base is biased towards experimental/avant/black metal/hip-hop/experimental  stuff. Of course this doesn't always necessarily cause problems, since by and large users stay away from music they do not like nor care about. I'm just saying that the large user base has both advantages and disadvantages. IMHO a much smaller user base could be just as good (or even better) at separating the awesome from the mediocre (and putting it in reasonable genre "buckets"), given the appropriate tools (a flexible genre system). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2024 at 02:49
^ To tie this back to the topic, given PA's crude genre system, JR-F needs to be included in order to be able to list not only essential prog artists like Mahavishnu Orchestra, but also "fringe" prog artists like Miles Davis. As a consequence, this leads to peculiar results, such as Miles Davis - Kind of Blue (a more or less pure Jazz release) being listed as the #1 Jazz-Rock/Fusion release.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2024 at 03:13
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ RYM is not the only music website with a more precise tagging system than PA ...
I know. I suppose most everyone knows that. David_D brought RYM into the discussion and he used that specific site's genre tags as an argument for... something. That's why I'm only discussing RYM/PA (and because I know enough to have an informed opinion).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2024 at 04:24
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ RYM is not the only music website with a more precise tagging system than PA ... pretty much all major prog websites are more precise, since they assign genres (at least) on the release level. Back in 2009 I debated this with M@x to no avail, one of the reasons why I left PA back then (and founded PF/AP) was this limitation.

I agree that RYM gets it right (or at least right enough) for most major releases, but the user base is biased towards experimental/avant/black metal/hip-hop/experimental  stuff. Of course this doesn't always necessarily cause problems, since by and large users stay away from music they do not like nor care about. I'm just saying that the large user base has both advantages and disadvantages. IMHO a much smaller user base could be just as good (or even better) at separating the awesome from the mediocre (and putting it in reasonable genre "buckets"), given the appropriate tools (a flexible genre system). 


Mmmhhhh!!!... I'd say it's not that he didn't want , but he couldn't...
AFAIK, Max was limited to what he could do or add because of the base on which the database was built.
Single genre was always the major flaw of PA, and the source of many fights amongst our collabs (including us two). i seem to remember you were for the multiplication of prog genres at first then fell back on the description tags used in the RYM mode.



Personally, back thenn I preferred giving a second and third genre to a band (without making hyperlinks 
I suggested he created another column with those hyperlink-less genre of those alphabetical list page, he had agreed to the principle, but for some (technical?) reason, he couldn't do it




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2024 at 04:38
^ No, M@x could have moved the genre to the release level if he had wanted to, I think he decided against it because it would have been a lot of work and people were flocking to the website because of the free mp3s, and since SEO is the main purpose of the website, it ultimately was not worth the effort.

I think I argued in favour of this change first and foremost back then, but it's too long for me to remember any details. Adding more genres to an artist is not particularly helpful IMO because it does not help anyone new to an artist to find out which release contains which ...


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - September 19 2024 at 04:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2024 at 06:09
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

''Prog rock'' as a term has become much more broader that it used to be in the 70's. Then ELP, Yes, Genesis and Tull were the full on prog bands that could be clearly differentiated. Floyd were not widely regarded as prog and people would have laughed at the suggestion that Supertramp were prog. The psyche bands and J/R fusion bands were their own thing. The 2 most valid categories of prog to me looking at a historical basis are Symphonic prog and Neo Prog. The rest is a mixture of experimental and metal while J/R is largely jazz based (duh!) and has a totally different attitude to me not caring for classical forms of music on which prog is based. The fact it's included as 'prog' doesn't bother me although I am still very puzzled that Steely Dan are put in this category next to RTF and Mahavishnu. And then there is post rock whatever that is Wink

Yes, "Prog Rock" as a term has become broader but some places more than other. Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2024 at 08:12
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

...
It depends on who these users are, and what their background is. Of course the more users participate in rating and tagging, the better, generally speaking, the result will be. But if most of these users are teenagers, the result may never be accurate, regardless of quantity. 

Hi,

I think, in time, this will average out some and if the numbers are "teenagers" ... we know one thing for sure ... their attention changes quickly and they will go somewhere else and find something else. The folks that "believe" in the whole thing as "progressive" (regardless of its sub-d's) will, likely stick around ... and support the music.

My only concern is history ... in general a musical/artistic scene lasts a certain amount of time, and very few of them in the history of the arts last over 50 years ... which might suggest that we are quickly running out of time, if this holds ... and I hope that the many sub-d's that we have ended up with are what will eventually break it all apart ... I, honestly, have no worries about any of the definitions, except one ... "symphonic" that has material in it that should not be there, simply because a band has a keyboard or two.

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

...
Adding more genres to an artist is not particularly helpful IMO because it does not help anyone new to an artist to find out which release contains which ...

And I wonder how much this is a part of the problem ... and we can take GENESIS starting out as folk/rock, then developing into "progressive", only to fall back into a lot of material that made them money but in all honesty does not fit what we consider "progressive" ... it might be best to immediately state at the INTRO for the band, that its aims changed ... and not even mention the rest of the albums? 

But, I thing that will hurt/confuse things even more ... unless we can find a "genre" that covers all the bases. 


Edited by moshkito - September 19 2024 at 08:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2024 at 08:21
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ RYM is not the only music website with a more precise tagging system than PA ... pretty much all major prog websites are more precise, since they assign genres (at least) on the release level. Back in 2009 I debated this with M@x to no avail, one of the reasons why I left PA back then (and founded PF/AP) was this limitation.

I agree that RYM gets it right (or at least right enough) for most major releases, but the user base is biased towards experimental/avant/black metal/hip-hop/experimental  stuff. Of course this doesn't always necessarily cause problems, since by and large users stay away from music they do not like nor care about. I'm just saying that the large user base has both advantages and disadvantages. IMHO a much smaller user base could be just as good (or even better) at separating the awesome from the mediocre (and putting it in reasonable genre "buckets"), given the appropriate tools (a flexible genre system).

Pretty much agree with all this. RYM does an excellent job with tagging albums multiply (both primary and secondary genres) for albums generally over 50 votes however some of the more obscure releases can be totally wrong. There is a tendency to tag avant-garde metal onto anything that's just slightly weird or experimental which is not what the term means.

The thing i love about RYM is that the genre tags are constantly expanding. In recent years dissonant death metal and dissonant black metal have been added however some newer tags like downtempo deathcore and some of the hip hop tags are rather unnecessary so it does seem they get carried away a bit. Personally i prefer a more precise description because sometimes i want to laser focus my search.

PA is woefully behind the times and given the owner's lack of desire to maintain even the most basic upgrades, it seems unlikely this site will continue in the future except perhaps as a clunky relic of the past. I do hope this changes of course. A partnership with you would be beneficial as you are much more active here than he is and have all the skills required to make it snazzy again :)

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Edited by siLLy puPPy - September 19 2024 at 08:23

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2024 at 11:12
^Dude, I can't even read that without highlighting it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mellotronwave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2024 at 11:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2024 at 12:18
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

If you for instance look at top 100 Jazz-Rock / Jazz Fusion albums all-time on RYM, only 20 of these 100 albums are also tagged as Progressive Rock or one of what RYM consider to be Prog sub-genres:

https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/all-time/g:jazz%2drock,jazz%2dfusion/ 

Well yes. They are not the same as we all agree. But it can be more or less similar in approach. And so? RYM even separates Jazz Rock and Jazz Fusion, so this does not directly compare. Anyway, none of Soft Machine first seven albums are tagged as Progressive Rock. But Canterbury Scene combined with Jazz-Rock Jazz Fusion, Psychedelic Rock, Experimental Rock... indicates some kind of Progressive Rock without the Progressive Rock tag:). Looking at a Hawkwind-album tagged: Space Rock, Hard Rock, Heavy Psych, Psychedelic Rock and Krautrock - you can expect it to have Progressive Rock qualities. But it will probably not sound anything like Yes.

When you look at RYM's top 200 Jazz-Rock / Jazz Fusion albums all-time, 52 of these 200 albums are also tagged as Progressive Rock or one of, what RYM consider to be, Prog sub-genres, which btw are:

                    Avant-Prog, incl. Brutal Prog, RIO and Zeuhl
                    Canterbury Scene
                    Neo-Prog
                    Symphonic Prog

( https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/progressive-rock/ )

This number of albums may indicate an overlap of about 25% of Jazz-Rock / Jazz Fusion between those genres and Progressive Rock and its sub-genres. These 25% are of course a very large number of albums, as Jazz-Rock and Jazz Fusion are rather big genres.

( https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/all-time/g:jazz%2drock,jazz%2dfusion/ )


Edited by David_D - September 19 2024 at 12:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Floydoid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2024 at 13:19
Personally as genres I have no interest in J-R Fusion or PR/MR and all the metal genres but they are here. So be it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2024 at 13:39
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Pretty much agree with all this. RYM does an excellent job with tagging albums multiply (both primary and secondary genres) for albums generally over 50 votes however some of the more obscure releases can be totally wrong. There is a tendency to tag avant-garde metal onto anything that's just slightly weird or experimental which is not what the term means.

I've seen your review of Happy the Man's debut on RYM - a good read. Thumbs Up

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2024 at 16:00
^ thanks for the kind words, good buddy!

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