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Sweetnighter 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 24 2004
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 Topic: Miles Davis: Worthy of Progarchives?
Posted: February 09 2005 at 12:20 |
Yes or no? I think the dilemma in terms of submitting davis as an
applicant to the archives is this: although he released such a diverse
amount of fusion rock albums in the late 60s and 70s (not to mention
basically inventing the genre), its such a small part of his repotoire
because of the sheer amount of albums he released. Realistically, the
entire fusion category in the archives as we know it, with groups like
Return to Forever, Mahavishnu Orchestra, and groups that would be
influenced by his music, such as Soft Machine and later Brand X,
wouldn't even be here. I feel that some of his fusion releases are
absolutely essential in the library of a true prog rocker that his not
being in the archives is really a shame. Here are some of those albums
that i think make his need to be in here essential.
  Agharta and Panagea 1975
 On the Corner 1972
 Live-Evil 1970
 Bitches Brew 1969
 In a Silent Way 1969
An interesting solution would be to include all of Davis' works post-1967, as nothing he did before had any relation to rock.
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I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die.
"Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend
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Reed Lover
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Location: Sao Tome and Pr
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Posted: February 09 2005 at 12:25 |
O.F.F.S.
The sound of barrels being scraped reverberates around the archives!
BTW I like Miles Davis very much,but...
HE DOES NOT BELONG ON THIS ARCHIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Velvetclown
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Posted: February 09 2005 at 12:26 |
I have to agree with Reed !!!!!!!!!! 
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Reed Lover
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Posted: February 09 2005 at 12:27 |
 Velvetclown wrote:
I have to agree with Reed !!!!!!!!!! |
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Velvetclown
Forum Senior Member
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Posted: February 09 2005 at 12:28 |
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Velvetclown
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Posted: February 09 2005 at 12:32 |
REED ALIVE AND WELL AND................................ 
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The Hemulen
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Joined: July 31 2004
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Posted: February 09 2005 at 12:32 |
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A couple of people have suggested this, perhaps it needs serious
consideration: What about an "Of Interest" section? Just a list of
artists that though not really prog display high levels of
musicianship/creativity within their chosen genres. Thoughts?
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Garion81
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Joined: May 22 2004
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Posted: February 09 2005 at 12:33 |
If we are to include Miles and other Pre Prog music then their should be a Pre Prog or Prog roots section or catagory. Not so those albums are reviewed but maybe just a list of those artists that influenced those who did start Prog. I also think the time line for these groups or artists should stop at 1969. That should satisfy that urge to include this or that artist.
Just food for thought.
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 "What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
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Certif1ed
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Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
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Posted: February 09 2005 at 12:37 |
Being of the inclusive nature, I vote yes on the strength of Bitches Brew alone.
...but I won't bully anyone about it... 
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Sweetnighter
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Posted: February 09 2005 at 12:42 |
I'm sorry, I guess i just fail to see how you can have a fusion subgenre in the archives without miles davis .
As I said his pre-67 material is not worthy of inclusion as its not
rock, but albums like In a Silent Way and Bitches Brew were crucial to
the fusion movement!
Edited by Sweetnighter
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I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die.
"Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend
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Garion81
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Posted: February 09 2005 at 13:03 |
Sweetnighter wrote:
I'm sorry, I guess i just fail to see how you can have a fusion subgenre in the archives without miles davis . As I said his pre-67 material is not worthy of inclusion as its not rock, but albums like In a Silent Way and Bitches Brew were crucial to the fusion movement! |
If you look at the Criteria SN it states that the Majority of the artists material has to be in the prog rock category. I understand about the two albums they are both great but is that the extent of Miles prog rock or fusion CD's? I mean Jeff Beck has two great prog albums in Blow by Blow and Wired but they do not constitute a majority of his material so he should not be included.
IMHO 
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
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Sweetnighter
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 24 2004
Location: United States
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Points: 1298
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Posted: February 09 2005 at 13:11 |
Garion81 wrote:
Sweetnighter wrote:
I'm sorry, I guess i just
fail to see how you can have a fusion subgenre in the archives without
miles davis . As I said his
pre-67 material is not worthy of inclusion as its not rock, but albums
like In a Silent Way and Bitches Brew were crucial to the fusion
movement! |
If you look at the Criteria SN it states that the Majority
of the artists material has to be in the prog rock category.
I understand about the two albums they are both great but is that the
extent of Miles prog rock or fusion CD's? I mean Jeff Beck has
two great prog albums in Blow by Blow and Wired but they do not
constitute a majority of his material so he should not be included.
IMHO
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Yeah, I see what you're saying, and to an extent you're right... but
how many artists have released as much material as miles davis? he
released fifty years work of material, and that ten of those years were
dedicated to rock oriented music is saying something. If Miles releases
8 fusion albums and some small group releases one fusion album and that
one album only, is that small group more prog simply because more of
their music was dedicated to prog music? That doesn't seem to make a
whole lot of sense to me. If Miles had miraculously popped up in the
mid-1960s and died in 1980 and released only fusions albums, i bet he
would be in here. I just think that a musician's contribution to prog
rock music is more important than whether or not what he/she/they
released was mostly in the style or not. Quality, not quantity!
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I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die.
"Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend
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Garion81
Special Collaborator
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Joined: May 22 2004
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Posted: February 09 2005 at 13:15 |
Sweetnighter wrote:
Garion81 wrote:
Sweetnighter wrote:
I'm sorry, I guess i just fail to see how you can have a fusion subgenre in the archives without miles davis . As I said his pre-67 material is not worthy of inclusion as its not rock, but albums like In a Silent Way and Bitches Brew were crucial to the fusion movement! |
If you look at the Criteria SN it states that the Majority of the artists material has to be in the prog rock category. I understand about the two albums they are both great but is that the extent of Miles prog rock or fusion CD's? I mean Jeff Beck has two great prog albums in Blow by Blow and Wired but they do not constitute a majority of his material so he should not be included.
IMHO
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Yeah, I see what you're saying, and to an extent you're right... but how many artists have released as much material as miles davis? he released fifty years work of material, and that ten of those years were dedicated to rock oriented music is saying something. If Miles releases 8 fusion albums and some small group releases one fusion album and that one album only, is that small group more prog simply because more of their music was dedicated to prog music? That doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense to me. If Miles had miraculously popped up in the mid-1960s and died in 1980 and released only fusions albums, i bet he would be in here. I just think that a musician's contribution to prog rock music is more important than whether or not what he/she/they released was mostly in the style or not. Quality, not quantity!
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Well Admins? What say you?
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
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Manunkind
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2005
Location: Poland
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Points: 2373
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Posted: February 09 2005 at 13:45 |
Sweetnighter wrote:
Garion81 wrote:
Sweetnighter wrote:
I'm sorry, I guess i just fail to see how you can have a fusion subgenre in the archives without miles davis . As I said his pre-67 material is not worthy of inclusion as its not rock, but albums like In a Silent Way and Bitches Brew were crucial to the fusion movement! |
If you look at the Criteria SN it states that the Majority of the artists material has to be in the prog rock category. I understand about the two albums they are both great but is that the extent of Miles prog rock or fusion CD's? I mean Jeff Beck has two great prog albums in Blow by Blow and Wired but they do not constitute a majority of his material so he should not be included.
IMHO
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Yeah, I see what you're saying, and to an extent you're right... but how many artists have released as much material as miles davis? he released fifty years work of material, and that ten of those years were dedicated to rock oriented music is saying something. If Miles releases 8 fusion albums and some small group releases one fusion album and that one album only, is that small group more prog simply because more of their music was dedicated to prog music? That doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense to me. If Miles had miraculously popped up in the mid-1960s and died in 1980 and released only fusions albums, i bet he would be in here. I just think that a musician's contribution to prog rock music is more important than whether or not what he/she/they released was mostly in the style or not. Quality, not quantity!
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Then The Beatles and The Beach Boys should be here as well.
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"In war there is no time to teach or learn Zen. Carry a strong stick. Bash your attackers." - Zen Master Ikkyu Sojun
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator
Jazz-Rock Specialist
Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
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Points: 12799
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Posted: February 09 2005 at 13:45 |
Garion81 wrote:
I mean Jeff Beck has two great prog albums in Blow by Blow and Wired but they do not constitute a majority of his material so he should not be included.
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They also happen to be the ones the jazz fusion fans (with no or little interest in prog) would list as Jeff Beck's important contributions to that sub-genre.
Having had the opportunity to ask Hugh Hopper directly about Miles Davis's influence on Soft Machine, the answer is 'no' wrt to those early fusion albums, but more likely 'yes' to albums before '66; but then John Coltrane was a much bigger influence. Check my thread elsewhere on BBC 4 Jazz Britannia documentary, which has revealed a significant amount wrt jazz influences on 60's and 70's rock musicians. Further on Soft Machine, Graham Bennett's forthcoming biography on the group, will tell more.
In passing have you noticed how Ornette Coleman Group influenced Ian Drury & The Blockheads..................check the bass riff on Sex and Drugs and Rock'nRoll.
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Sweetnighter
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Joined: October 24 2004
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Posted: February 09 2005 at 14:10 |
How is anything that Jeff Beck, The Beatles or The Beach Boys
progressive or akin to Davis' late 60s work? I have Jeff Beck's Blow by
Blow... sorry, I'm not hearing anything progressive. Now listen to
Bitches Brew and then tell me its not progressive.
Edited by Sweetnighter
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I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die.
"Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend
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Spartacus
Forum Groupie
Joined: January 27 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 72
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Posted: February 09 2005 at 14:13 |
This just opens up a whole new can of worms. I second the thought of including these influential bands such as Miles Davis in a second section of prog influences. It would be a very good feature for this site since so many times the question of "what is the first prog album?" is posed. Prog was an evolution, like every other genre in music, and not was not born. I fully believe we should accept this fact and include "influentional groups" as a seperate function in the archives. This would certainly create wonderful discussion and presumably be a distinguising feature of the site.
I fully enjoy Miles Davis's music and it should be discussed on this site, but include him in the archives? No. Include him as an influnece as a seperate section? Yes.
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Manunkind
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Joined: February 02 2005
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 2373
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Posted: February 09 2005 at 16:38 |
Sweetnighter wrote:
How is anything that Jeff Beck, The Beatles or The Beach Boys progressive or akin to Davis' late 60s work? I have Jeff Beck's Blow by Blow... sorry, I'm not hearing anything progressive. Now listen to Bitches Brew and then tell me its not progressive. |
To quote Robert Coover: "When is a flea not a flea?"
"Pet Sounds" by the Beach Boys is "progressive" squared in comparison to what they did before. It's one of the first experimental rock albums, it even predates Zappa's "Freak Out" by about one month. As you may imagine the poor surfer dudes used to early Beach Boys' tunes ran around like headless chickens after hearing "Pet Sounds". So did all the Beach Boys themsleves, apart from Brian Wilson , the author of the material.
"Revolver" and "Sgt Pepper's..." are also "progressive" squared as compared to the early Beatles. Seriously experimental and highly influential. Mentioned and endorsed as candidates for the first progressive albums in the (ahem) "First Progressive Album" thread.
Other acts that influenced prog and just might be included in the archives? Hendrix, (helmet, kevlar vest, groin protection on) The Doors and The Velvet Underground.
Yes, Davis created jazz rock, but I still think that "In a Silent Way" and "Bitches Brew" are as progressive as the aformentioned albums. Davis himself probably wouldn't have liked the term; progressive jazz was another name for cool jazz then, something Davis had dabbled in and distanced himself from, namely by recording the two albums. And speaking of Davis' albums, they were recorded with the help of John McLaughlin, Chick Corea, Joe Zawinul, Wayne Shorter and Benny Maupin among others. All of these musicians expanded upon Davis' vision. Mahavishnu and Return to Forever are in the archives - so why not Weather Report? No guitar? McLaughlin also recorded an outstanding jazz rock album with Tony Williams, Benny Maupin led jazz rock bands, and Billy Cobham continued to play jazz rock after he left Mahavishnu. I don't remember the names of those bands now , but they existed all right, and if Davis is included, no matter if in an "of interest" category (a very good suggestion, by the way) or in the archives themselves, then so should be all these bands.
But going that way we might end up including Son House, the first known proto-bluesman.
The bottom line: "Progressive" is a murky concept (nothing new here). If Davis is progressive, than so are all of these bands, and if they are included in the archives, the forum is running the risk of gradually losing its focus. Still, their influence on prog is undisputed, so if an "of interest" category is created, they should be placed there, they deserve it 100%.
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"In war there is no time to teach or learn Zen. Carry a strong stick. Bash your attackers." - Zen Master Ikkyu Sojun
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Cluster One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 03 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 780
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Posted: February 09 2005 at 16:40 |
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Wow, what a can of worms! As much as I love Miles Davis, I don't feel
he belongs on this site. I can just see the next person to find him on
ProgArchives saying "WTF? But he's from like the 50's..."
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Marmalade...I like marmalade.
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Sean Trane
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Posted: February 10 2005 at 03:02 |
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If you add Jack Johnson to those albums you proposed, then I say yes
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Miles Davis: Worthy of Progarchives?
