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fungusucantkill 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 26 2005
Location: New Orleans
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Points: 618
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 Topic: Sun Ra?
Posted: July 21 2007 at 16:32 |
I understand that Sun Ra is more of the Jazz Avant Garde rather than Prog.
But I think maybe they should be considered? or have they already been considered? They just seem so progressive.
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Ghandi 2
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Joined: February 17 2006
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Points: 1494
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Posted: July 24 2007 at 00:10 |
He's Jazz, not rock. If we added him we'd have to add Coltrane and who knows how many others (plus all the avant groups that the post-rock and avant teams are dying to include). We must remember that this is prog ROCK archives, not innovative music archives. Some stretch the boundaries of rock so far that it can hardly be called rock, but that is a subjective thing.
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Equality 7-2521
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Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
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Points: 15784
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Posted: July 24 2007 at 23:16 |
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He is so progressive. More progressive than a majority of the bands here, but as Ghandi said Sun Ra wasn't rock. His inclusion would open the door for innovators in jazz and every other imaginable genre.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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The Wizard
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 18 2005
Location: United States
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Points: 7341
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Posted: July 24 2007 at 23:31 |
His influence did spread into rock music however, if that means anything.
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Proletariat
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Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
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Points: 1882
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Posted: July 24 2007 at 23:38 |
If we can add bands that arn't prog, that are only rock but influenced rock then we should be able to add ones that are only prog and not rock. I would absolutelly support his inclusion.
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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queenlerxst
Forum Groupie
Joined: June 17 2007
Location: United States
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Points: 84
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Posted: July 24 2007 at 23:40 |
 Ghandi 2 wrote:
We must remember that this is prog ROCK archives, not innovative music archives. |
 Indeed. I was shocked to see a lot of jazz musicians in the archives as it is. Sun Ra would really be pushing it. |
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queenlerxst
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Joined: June 17 2007
Location: United States
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Points: 84
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Posted: July 24 2007 at 23:42 |
The Wizard wrote:
His influence did spread into rock music however, if that means anything. |
What music hasn't infiltrated the prog rock genre?
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The Wizard
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 18 2005
Location: United States
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Points: 7341
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Posted: July 24 2007 at 23:43 |
queenlerxst wrote:
The Wizard wrote:
His influence did spread into rock music however, if that means anything. |
What music hasn't infiltrated the prog rock genre? |
Good point.
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Cheesecakemouse
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Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
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Points: 1751
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Posted: October 03 2007 at 04:20 |
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I think Space is the Place fits in anything else the RIO/ Avant genre did, similar to trout mask replica in terms of pure chaos.
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
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Joined: March 26 2004
Location: France
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Posted: October 03 2007 at 04:57 |
Ghandi 2 wrote:
He's Jazz, not rock. If we added him we'd have to add Coltrane and who knows how many others (plus all the avant groups that the post-rock and avant teams are dying to include). We must remember that this is prog ROCK archives, not innovative music archives. Some stretch the boundaries of rock so far that it can hardly be called rock, but that is a subjective thing. |
But currently we have a lot of non-rock bands. It's too late to go backwards as we've widely expanded the "prog" definition. Progarchives should be called progressive music resource and not progrock resource anymore if we want to be coherent.
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Cheesecakemouse
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
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Points: 1751
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Posted: October 03 2007 at 05:01 |
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A B Negative
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 02 2006
Location: Methil Republic
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Points: 1594
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Posted: October 03 2007 at 05:10 |
The Wizard wrote:
His influence did spread into rock music however, if that means anything. |
If Sun Ra is "widely accepted as MUSICALLY influential to the development of Progressive Rock by the community" he can fit in Prog-related.
I'm a big fan but I don't see his influence on the development of prog. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!
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"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."
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Cheesecakemouse
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 1751
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Posted: October 03 2007 at 05:16 |
A B Negative wrote:
The Wizard wrote:
His influence did spread into rock music however, if that means anything. |
If Sun Ra is "widely accepted as MUSICALLY influential to the development of Progressive Rock by the community" he can fit in Prog-related.
I'm a big fan but I don't see his influence on the development of prog. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong! |
What about Space is the Place, pure dissonance in same way a lot of Rio and Avant, I know he did at least one fusion album, I have an album called 'The Futuriustic Sounds Of Sun Ra", it sounds like prog jazz (if there were such a thing), basically it has the eclecticism and experimentalism of prog without the rock element of some of the bands here, but its certainly prog. Anywayh I only know a couple of his albums and they have that certain 'eccentricity' that many prog bands have.
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Visitor13
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: February 02 2005
Location: Poland
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Points: 4702
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Posted: October 03 2007 at 05:18 |
oliverstoned wrote:
Ghandi 2 wrote:
He's Jazz, not rock. If we added him we'd have to add Coltrane and who knows how many others (plus all the avant groups that the post-rock and avant teams are dying to include). We must remember that this is prog ROCK archives, not innovative music archives. Some stretch the boundaries of rock so far that it can hardly be called rock, but that is a subjective thing. |
But currently we have a lot of non-rock bands. It's too late to go backwards as we've widely expanded the "prog" definition. Progarchives should be called progressive music resource and not progrock resource anymore if we want to be coherent. |
If PA wants to be coherent, it has to go backwards and limit the 'prog' definition. And since 'prog' stands for progressive rock, non-rock bands should be removed, no matter how progressive they are. No room for Sun Ra under this definition.
By the way, if you want to create a progressive music archives, you have to cast all prog bands aside (at least for the moment) and start from various traditional forms of music and work from there, seeing which 'non-traditional' music enters into a meaningful dialogue with traditional and how. I daresay that in this case classical music should take precedence over prog.
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Cheesecakemouse
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 1751
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Posted: October 03 2007 at 05:21 |
Just remeber Tangerine Dream, and Brian Eno's ambient albums are not rock. Kraftwerk veered away from rock, and UV is more classical than anything else. Mike Oldfield most progressive stuff eg Amorok, has very little to do with rock.
Edited by Cheesecakemouse - October 03 2007 at 05:22
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A B Negative
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Joined: May 02 2006
Location: Methil Republic
Status: Offline
Points: 1594
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Posted: October 03 2007 at 05:26 |
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
A B Negative wrote:
The Wizard wrote:
His influence did spread into rock music however, if that means anything. |
If Sun Ra is "widely accepted as MUSICALLY influential to the development of Progressive Rock by the community" he can fit in Prog-related.
I'm a big fan but I don't see his influence on the development of prog. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong! |
What about Space is the Place, pure dissonance in same way a lot of Rio and Avant, I know he did at least one fusion album, I have an album called 'The Futuriustic Sounds Of Sun Ra", it sounds like prog jazz (if there were such a thing), basically it has the eclecticism and experimentalism of prog without the rock element of some of the bands here, but its certainly prog. Anywayh I only know a couple of his albums and they have that certain 'eccentricity' that many prog bands have.
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The RIO/Avant artists I've heard (Boredoms, Beefheart, Cardiacs, Guapo, Henry Cow, Sleepytime Gorilla Museum, Zappa) don't have any Sun Ra influence as far as I can see, but I concede there's a lot of RIO/Avant music I haven't heard.
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"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."
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Visitor13
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: February 02 2005
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 4702
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Posted: October 03 2007 at 05:33 |
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
Just remeber Tangerine Dream, and Brian Eno's ambient albums are not rock. Kraftwerk veered away from rock, and UV is more classical than anything else. Mike Oldfield most progressive stuff eg Amorok, has very little to do with rock. |
Which is why they shouldn't be here.
Not that I'm going to write any petitions for their removal or anything, I like the site for what it is - a place where people can exchange recommendations. But even when I joined back in February 2005, the site looked like a 'pretty much anything archives' to me. Obviously it still looks that way. And the addition of Sun Ra would only be a further step in that direction.
Edited by Visitor13 - October 03 2007 at 05:34
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Gamemako
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 31 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1184
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Posted: October 03 2007 at 21:21 |
Visitor13 wrote:
By the way, if you want to create a progressive music archives, you have to cast all prog bands aside (at least for the moment) and start from various traditional forms of music and work from there, seeing which 'non-traditional' music enters into a meaningful dialogue with traditional and how. I daresay that in this case classical music should take precedence over prog.
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Quoted for truth. 
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Sun Ra?
I definately agree.