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Dean 
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 Posted: October 27 2007 at 20:54 |
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For me, one of the pluses of the splitting of Prog-Metal is that many of the bands weren't related at all. To your average Arcturus or Isis fan, a Dream Theater or Pain Of Salvation CD is a $15 frisbee - and vice versa.
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What?
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P.H.P.
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Joined: September 01 2007
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Posted: October 27 2007 at 20:57 |
 MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
So lets be sincere, this changes are positive in some cases, but don’t say they are directed for the newbie who will navigate in an endless sea of genres, this multiple sub-genres are for the Proghead who eats, dreams and breathes Progressive Rock, and he’s the only one who will care to investigate the slight difference between crossover and Prog Related.
My advice to a newbie regarding the three PM genres would be this: Focus on the main Progressive Metal genre to discover what PM originally was like and how these bands and their successors developed, and then explore the two other genres to find out about the more experimental metal bands which made their music progressive in more unusual ways.
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Hmm...I think to be able to understand Prog Metal you must understand Prog Rock first, because Prog Metal is " son" of Prog Rock, and in the case of that newbie, I just can't do other thing than just recommending him/her some good Prog Rock instead!!  
Edited by P.H.P. - October 27 2007 at 20:58
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Chris S
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Posted: October 27 2007 at 21:53 |
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The mutual but unequal transfusion of molecules through a semi - permeable membrane until equally dispersed - " Osmosis" applies to our passion of prog too!!!
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: October 28 2007 at 01:33 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
If someone comes here, knowing Dream Theater and maybe Symphony X, then the recent change means that he will be able to find similar bands more easily. That's what the whole thing is all about. And when he's ready for the more unusual stuff he moves on to the two new categories.
You won't be always there to give him ann advise, plus most of the newbies visit the site once or twice, if they don't find it friendly enough, they never come back.
And believe me, three Prog Metals is irrational, there should be only one as every other genre, but that is past, it's done and we need to hope the best for Prog Archives
Time will tell ... in the meantime we might begin creating schools like you did in Symphonic Prog.
Haven't done it yet and will take some time because of some breaking news that I'm not authorized to tell yet.
What I don't understand about those who constantly criticise genres: If you don't like them, why don't you simply browse the A-Z list? It's not like you *have* to use them.
Hey, I don't criticize genres, I'mhead of one team, I'm in favoutr of genres, I don't agree with three Prog Metals, three Symphonics or Three Neo Progs, that's a different story.
Another example of demagogy (look it up at wikipedia ) ... a mild one but still. We create 2 new genres and it took us about 2 years to get there. There is no danger of new genres being created every day.
So we should create ficticious genres every day? There's no reason to expand the genres, it's ilogic, the genres have to be created whebn there's a reason i don't believe there's a reason for three Prog Metals, but i may be wrong
My advice to a newbie regarding the three PM genres would be this: Focus on the main Progressive Metal genre to discover what PM originally was like and how these bands and their successors developed, and then explore the two other genres to find out about the more experimental metal bands which made their music progressive in more unusual ways.
Why not Prog Metal kept as one strong sub-genre, and several schools inside, it's simpler and rational...Or is Prog metal a super genre that deserves more sub-genres than the rest?
Remember the phrase "Divide et Vinces" (You can find it also uin Wikipedia ). i believe in solid, strong and unified sub-genres rather than in weak, divided and with no reason to support that division.
Perhaps we can get M@x to implement pages which combine genres, for example one which lists all metal genre bands, another one which lists both post rock and post metal, another one which lists RIO/Avant, Krautrock and Zeuhl, one which lists Eclectic Prog and Symphonic Prog etc.. This way we can have the best of both worlds ... people who want specific lists can use the genres, the others can use the combined pages.
This may be done in a small site as your's Mike, but Prog Archives is too big and already has a method that has brought success and reliability.
Think outside the box!!!!
Yes, it's a good idea to think a bit outsisde the box, but it's also useful to think a bit in this box called Prog Archives. 
Iván
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Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 28 2007 at 02:52
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Raff
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Posted: October 28 2007 at 04:47 |
darqdean wrote:
For me, one of the pluses of the splitting of Prog-Metal is that many of the bands weren't related at all. To your average Arcturus or Isis fan, a Dream Theater or Pain Of Salvation CD is a $15 frisbee - and vice versa. |
Kudos to you, Dean  ... I experienced that yesterday evening, when I started listening to the MP3s on the Tech/Extreme Metal page. In the past, every time I'd tried to listen to those tracks, I ended up being frustrated by the incredible diversity of the bands listed, which didn't allow me to really 'make sense' of the wider subgenre of PM. On the other hand, yesterday I was able to appreciate the subtle (or even more evident) differences amongst the bands belonging to that particular sub, instead of being overwhelmed by music that was far too diverse to be classified together. David's metaphor of the music store is, in my very humble opinion, extremely fitting... I know that every time I go to a mainstream store I have a hard time finding what I may be interested in, because everything going under the handle of 'international pop-rock' is lumped together.... from Yes to Frank Sinatra.
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bhikkhu
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Posted: October 28 2007 at 10:32 |
The Art split was needed because of the diversity of styles. The split of metal doesn't make sense to me from of point of sheer logic. Why couldn't the diversity of the bands have been dealt with within the existing sub-genre? They are all still Metal bands. And it seems some of the supporters know this without realizing it.
micky wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
think of it this way; you walk into a record shop that has music in
thoughtful and knowledgeable sections instead of all mixed together,
say it has a large metal section with Tech, Experimental and
traditional progmetal sub-sections where right away you discover
several things you'd been interested in... then you go to a
record shop that lumps rock, pop, metal, psych, punk, and classic prog
all together, and you realize you would've never found that copy of Skullgrid
if you had to look through all the other stuff in the second record
shop. Which place will earn your respect, and where are you more
likely to go next time?
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don't know whether to kiss you David ( probably not a good idea ) or envy you.
well said.... much better than I could say hahhaha...
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And sometimes they don't.
darqdean wrote:
For me, one of the pluses of the splitting of Prog-Metal is that many of the bands weren't related at all. To your average Arcturus or Isis fan, a Dream Theater or Pain Of Salvation CD is a $15 frisbee - and vice versa. |
Not related at all? They aren't all Metal bands? Oh well. Like I said it is a matter of logic for me, and I am a bit anal about these things. If I see a crooked picture, I have to straighten it. Life goes on.
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micky
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Posted: October 28 2007 at 10:38 |
sure HT... they are all metal bands... and all sound the same right?
All have the same style? Let's just drop all the prog bands that
were 'rock' in the same sub-genre while we are at it.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: October 28 2007 at 10:52 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
If someone comes here, knowing Dream Theater and maybe Symphony X, then the recent change means that he will be able to find similar bands more easily. That's what the whole thing is all about. And when he's ready for the more unusual stuff he moves on to the two new categories.
You won't be always there to give him ann advise, plus most of the newbies visit the site once or twice, if they don't find it friendly enough, they never come back.
That's why we'll continue to improve the genre definitions which are always there.
And believe me, three Prog Metals is irrational, there should be only one as every other genre, but that is past, it's done and we need to hope the best for Prog Archives See below ...
Another example of demagogy (look it up at wikipedia) ... a mild one but still. We create 2 new genres and it took us about 2 years to get there. There is no danger of new genres being created every day.
So we should create ficticious genres every day? There's no reason to expand the genres, it's ilogic, the genres have to be created whebn there's a reason i don't believe there's a reason for three Prog Metals, but i may be wrong
Also see below ...
My advice to a newbie regarding the three PM genres would be this: Focus on the main Progressive Metal genre to discover what PM originally was like and how these bands and their successors developed, and then explore the two other genres to find out about the more experimental metal bands which made their music progressive in more unusual ways.
Why not Prog Metal kept as one strong sub-genre, and several schools inside, it's simpler and rational...Or is Prog metal a super genre that deserves more sub-genres than the rest?
Yes, I do think that Prog Metal is a different situation than most of the other genres. It can benefit from a split because during the last 25 years metal bands have discovered more and more different ways or styles to make their music progressive. With about 500 bands a split is a good thing even from a pure numerical standpoint, and except for a handful of bands which are "between the chairs" the three new categories are proving to be quite consistent and logical.
I would support a split of the Symphonic Prog genre too ... if you can find a way to split the genre into a small number of genres which are roughly equally sized and without any major inconsistencies. We found such a solution for prog metal and implemented it ... it wasn't a matter of splitting our genre "at any cost".
Remember the phrase "Divide et Vinces" (You can find it also uin Wikipedia ). i believe in solid, strong and unified sub-genres rather than in weak, divided and with no reason to support that division.
There are many reasons, and most fans of the genre support them.
Perhaps we can get M@x to implement pages which combine genres, for example one which lists all metal genre bands, another one which lists both post rock and post metal, another one which lists RIO/Avant, Krautrock and Zeuhl, one which lists Eclectic Prog and Symphonic Prog etc.. This way we can have the best of both worlds ... people who want specific lists can use the genres, the others can use the combined pages.
This may be done in a small site as your's Mike, but Prog Archives is too big and already has a method that has brought success and reliability. I fail to see why this shouldn't be implemented ... it doesn't require any change in the structure of the website. Just a few additional pages, or even simply a slight change to the current top 100 chart page (introducing checkboxes so you can select more than one genre).
Think outside the box!!!!
Yes, it's a good idea to think a bit outsisde the box, but it's also useful to think a bit in this box called Prog Archives.
Iván
Agreed ... it doesn't make much sense to think outside the box which is defined by what M@x would really implement. But we can think on the fringes ... 
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micky
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Posted: October 28 2007 at 10:57 |
^ if that doesn't get you in the X-mas spirit.. what will.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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bhikkhu
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Posted: October 28 2007 at 11:04 |
micky wrote:
sure HT... they are all metal bands... and all sound the same right?
All have the same style? Let's just drop all the prog bands that
were 'rock' in the same sub-genre while we are at it.
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No they don't all sound the same. I never said that. I have stated many times that the diversity of the bands needed to be addressed. But, since they are all still Metal bands, that diversity should have been addressed within the overall heading of Prog Metal.
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micky
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Posted: October 28 2007 at 11:07 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: October 28 2007 at 11:13 |
I basically just go with the flow, so, just a bit. The sub genres are there for you to explore or ignore. But if metal metaltastisizes any more this may become a metal prog site. (I read the new sub genre's definitions, the danger is there ) Hopefully things will settle down with the split.
Edited by Slartibartfast - October 28 2007 at 11:17
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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bhikkhu
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Posted: October 28 2007 at 11:18 |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: October 28 2007 at 13:01 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
That's why we'll continue to improve the genre definitions which are always there.
Definitions that won't be read if the site is too complex and not friendly, for me three Prog Metals create confusion.
Yes, I do think that Prog Metal is a different situation than most of the other genres. It can benefit from a split because during the last 25 years metal bands have discovered more and more different ways or styles to make their music progressive. With about 500 bands a split is a good thing even from a pure numerical standpoint, and except for a handful of bands which are "between the chairs" the three new categories are proving to be quite consistent and logical.
Why different? What makes it so special? Every genre is as important as all the others and some are pretty much more complex than Metal, all the bands in this genres have the Metal component, all should be together.
We have almost 400 bands in Symphonic and I'm sure we will pass the 500 soon, but all are Symphonic and that's the main point.
I would support a split of the Symphonic Prog genre too ... if you can find a way to split the genre into a small number of genres which are roughly equally sized and without any major inconsistencies. We found such a solution for prog metal and implemented it ... it wasn't a matter of splitting our genre "at any cost".
Well, the Symphonic split wion't happen, we believe all Symphonic bands belong together, we even believe Italian Symphonic bands belong in Symphonic, but this is a decision taken above and we have to accept them.
There are many reasons, and most fans of the genre support them.
Mopst of the fans? The majority always keep silent to keep the peace, only some of us feel we should express our opinions when we thing something is not right for the site, but again, we can only talk because this has been decided.
Agreed ... it doesn't make much sense to think outside the box which is defined by what M@x would really implement. But we can think on the fringes ...
I rather think in the box itself, there's where the important issues arre, but agaion this is only theorical, because the Prog metal issue has been decided, only time will tell.
Iván
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: October 28 2007 at 13:10 |
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"Why
different? What makes it so special? Every genre is as important as all
the others and some are pretty much more complex than Metal, all the
bands in this genres have the Metal component, all should be together."
Sorry, but I don't think that any of the other genres was comparable to prog metal as far as stylistic bandwidth is concerned. Imagine that Symphonic, RIO, Eclectic Prog and Post Rock were combined ... would that be a good thing?
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bhikkhu
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Posted: October 28 2007 at 14:06 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
"Why
different? What makes it so special? Every genre is as important as all
the others and some are pretty much more complex than Metal, all the
bands in this genres have the Metal component, all should be together."Sorry, but I don't think that any of the other genres was comparable to prog metal as far as stylistic bandwidth is concerned. Imagine that Symphonic, RIO, Eclectic Prog and Post Rock were combined ... would that be a good thing? |
No, but they don't all have a common thread, such as all being Metal bands.
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Logan
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Posted: October 28 2007 at 14:31 |
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I like the metal split, but I would rather the new categories be organised as subcategories of the Prog Metal category (click on Prog Metal and then have a further chance to click on the subcategories. The "Prog Metal" list of bands as it stands could be renamed Traditional, Conventional, Typical, or Generic Progressive Metal -- don't know what name is best, but... whatever, not important to my point).
Of course I want multi-tagging as a further development, but I could see this category/ sub category approach working for the old art rock category.. though I'd tweak the master category name.
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micky
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Posted: October 28 2007 at 14:33 |
bhikkhu wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
"Why
different? What makes it so special? Every genre is as important as all
the others and some are pretty much more complex than Metal, all the
bands in this genres have the Metal component, all should be together."Sorry,
but I don't think that any of the other genres was comparable to prog
metal as far as stylistic bandwidth is concerned. Imagine that
Symphonic, RIO, Eclectic Prog and Post Rock were combined ... would
that be a good thing? |
No, but they don't all have a common thread, such as all being Metal bands.
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silly me... how about all being rock bands as a common thread... a category as mushy and wide as metal...
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: October 28 2007 at 14:44 |
^ thanks! Actually this is the typical error ... to some people Prog Metal can only be either a sub genre of prog rock like all the others or something completely different from prog rock - so different that it doesn't really belong here. Jazz-Fusion is in the same situation ... it's very different from the other Prog Rock genres. Neo Prog is another special genre, theoretically it could be split into Symphonic Neo Prog and the rest. I'm not suggesting that though, since there aren't enough bands in the genre to justify a split and the differences between them are not *that* big.
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P.H.P.
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Posted: October 28 2007 at 14:47 |
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For me, the only way Metal can be Prog is if it's a sub-genre of Prog Rock, strongly influenced by it, otherwise it only is what has been called "Technical Metal", IMO.
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Are you stubborn about the genre changes?
