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Hirgwath 
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 Topic: The Velvet Underground
Posted: February 03 2008 at 16:48 |
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For proto-prog?
They match to some degree with the Archives definition.
Long compositions:
see: "Heroin", "European Son", and (from what I haven't heard): "The Gift", "Sister Ray", "The Murder Mystery"
"Lyrics that convey intricate and sometimes impenetrable narratives":
Check.
Concept Albums? No.
Unusual vocal styles/harmonies? Lou Reed has a distinctive voice (and so did Nico), but not really. Unless there are some on White Light/White Heat, which is still on my to-listen list.
Non-standard electric instruments and tunings? Electric viola, celesta, piano, and ostrich guitar (non standard-tuning of electric guitar).
"Inclusion of classical pieces"?
Well, no. But a whole lot of influence from 20th century avant-garde music.
"Aesthetic link to visual art?"
Andy Warhol, anyone?
I think they have so much in common with avant/RIO, psychedelic, post-rock, and possibly kraut-rock and Zeuhl, that they merit a spot in proto-prog. They have the (20th century) classical and (free) jazz influences down, in addition to lengthiness, instrumentation, and tunings.
I hope I wasn't supposed to post this elsewhere.
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Skwisgaar Skwigelf: taller than a tree.
Toki Wartooth: not a bumblebee.
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Evans
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Posted: February 03 2008 at 17:11 |
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Well, i love the Velvet Underground, i tend to think they were at LEAST ten times more innovative than almost all of the bands on this site people hail as groundbreakers, but you will get very little love or support for your cause, i am afraid.
White Light/White Heat is a moster of an album, it is absolutely fantastic and rabid at the same time. But really, Sister ray is just 3 chords repeated over and over with Reed singing some strange words about drugs and pimps, no real "epic", and while Heroin is a genius song on almost every level, it is not near complex enough to be considered as something which influenced bands such as King Crimson and Genesis.
I can see songs such as Sister Ray being a slight influence to bands like "Can", with the long, repetitive jams, noise, and ramblings by a strange frontman.
The Gift and The Murder Mystery are innovative and interesting, but.. no.
White light has a lot of unusual vocal styles .Cale just talking in the left speaker in the Gift, in Lady Godiva there's Reed and Cale trading lines (although it's only near the end and it really works badly). Reed's style in Sister Ray is very reminiscent of Malcom Mooney from Can, and, of course, "the Murder Mystery" from the third album.
Post-rock, though? Where?! :)
They were, however, more punk than the Sex Pistols, at a time Sid Viscious and Johhny Rotten were still eating sand and pulling girls' pigtails.
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'Let's give it another fifteen seconds..'
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Hirgwath
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Joined: July 16 2007
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Points: 262
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Posted: February 03 2008 at 23:23 |
 Evans wrote:
Well, i love the Velvet Underground, i tend to think they were at LEAST ten times more innovative than almost all of the bands on this site people hail as groundbreakers, but you will get very little love or support for your cause, i am afraid.
White Light/White Heat is a moster of an album, it is absolutely fantastic and rabid at the same time. But really, Sister ray is just 3 chords repeated over and over with Reed singing some strange words about drugs and pimps, no real "epic", and while Heroin is a genius song on almost every level, it is not near complex enough to be considered as something which influenced bands such as King Crimson and Genesis.
I can see songs such as Sister Ray being a slight influence to bands like "Can", with the long, repetitive jams, noise, and ramblings by a strange frontman.
The Gift and The Murder Mystery are innovative and interesting, but.. no.
White light has a lot of unusual vocal styles .Cale just talking in the left speaker in the Gift, in Lady Godiva there's Reed and Cale trading lines (although it's only near the end and it really works badly). Reed's style in Sister Ray is very reminiscent of Malcom Mooney from Can, and, of course, "the Murder Mystery" from the third album.
Post-rock, though? Where?! :)
They were, however, more punk than the Sex Pistols, at a time Sid Viscious and Johhny Rotten were still eating sand and pulling girls' pigtails.
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They were a precursor to post-rock in that they were very influenced by minimalism. Post-rock just loves the same sort of gradual build up. I get a heavy Godspeed You! Black Emperor vibe. Start quiet, repeat, and crescendo into chaos. Why does prog have to be epic? Why shouldn't prog be about drugs and pimps? Lou Reed wrote of those things because he read the American literary fiction of the time, and liked it. The Beatniks. And the way you put it makes it sound like it's somehow unworthy of prog, to write about anything remotely social. Unlike a lot of modern popular music, VU lamented the fact that they were heroin addicts, and felt disgusted with themselves. Lou Reed was disgusted that people shot up while listening to "Heroin". That's not what it was about. Why must prog have more than three chords? Especially when they are played in a way that is somehow unique or interesting? Classical music doesn't even need to have three chords, let alone any chords at all, any more. John Cale was influenced by classical composers who did similar experiments. The note density is not proportional to a song's progressiveness. However, if the historical link between VU and prog is just not there, mayhap they don't need a spot.
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Skwisgaar Skwigelf: taller than a tree.
Toki Wartooth: not a bumblebee.
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Raff
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Posted: February 04 2008 at 01:55 |
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I am sorry to have to contradict Evans, but as far as I can remember (there have been other threads on VU over the past couple of years) there were quite a few people who agreed with their addition, and exactly on the same grounds as presented by Hirgwath. Of course, they were not influential on the development of prog if by prog we mean only Yes, Genesis and their ilk, but definitely so on other, less popular subgenres.
As to the objection that they were influential to punk, I think it should be high time to ditch this totally artificial dichotomy between punk and prog. Art is not about barriers, but rather about cross-fertilization. One of the foremost modern prog bands, The Mars Volta, was formed after the demise of hardcore outfit At The Drive-In. John Lydon was a fan of VDGG. What those idiotic, pseudo-journalists wrote back in 1977 was not how things really were.
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Evans
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Posted: February 04 2008 at 05:21 |
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That's right, Raff, there were a few, but not as many as i would have wanted...
And i didn't say that they were influential to punk as a reason not to include them, i like punk! :)
Personally, i wouldn't hesitate, i consider them way more groundbreaking than so many bands that are already here, but i was trying to give the "other" side's reasons for not wanting them here. A recap, if you will, because they've been up to discussion before.
I agree that Heroin is kinda post-rockish, i wonder why i didn't think of that. It is, however, the only song of theirs with that obvious kind of connection to Godspeed, even if the simplicity is always there.
Still, prog is, to most people, high-brow, and as someone write about the Velvet Underground; "If you don't understand the genius in "Venus in Furs" or If you sit there listening to Sister Ray nodding quietly and going 'ah, yes.. of course', you haven't got anything'".
It is interesting what you said about Lou hating when people were shooting up to his song, though, where did you read that? I always figured he was kinda proud over it, as he had such a reputation of being a real bad-ass, and all that. Plus he wrote a song on the next album about Amphetamine, so..
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'Let's give it another fifteen seconds..'
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Hirgwath
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Posted: February 04 2008 at 20:58 |
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I read about Lou Reed's feelings about "Heroin" on Wikipedia, I think. Perhaps the source is still there.
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Skwisgaar Skwigelf: taller than a tree.
Toki Wartooth: not a bumblebee.
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micky
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Posted: February 04 2008 at 21:03 |
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yawn.... this band should probably be on the tops of the admin's list of bands to consider for the proto ranks. Somewhere up above the Gods of Prog are laughing at us for adding the Doors and Jefferson Airplane.. and not adding an American band that actually was... proto prog and massively influential to prog at the same time.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Evans
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Posted: February 05 2008 at 06:17 |
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For the sake of the argument, i must claim that i don't believe the Velvet Underground were in fact "hugely" influential. Remember, for a long time they were pretty "underground". Part of that has to do with them having to withdraw theit first LP for a while after it was first released due to some copyright issue, and when it was released again, it just didn't sell that much at all.
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'Let's give it another fifteen seconds..'
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micky
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Posted: February 05 2008 at 06:52 |
true... but again for arguments sake... Although never commercially successful, The Velvet Underground
remains one of the most influential bands of their time: a famous
remark, often attributed to Brian Eno, is that while only a few
thousand people bought a Velvet Underground record upon their initial
release, almost every single one of them was inspired to start a band.
The Velvet Underground's massive influence and the cult following that
has outlasted the group's original existence. The Velvet
Underground was one of the first rock music groups to experiment
heavily with the form by incorporating avant-garde influences. Sure Genesis and some of the big boys didn't get off listening to the VU... but I'd think you agree there is a LOT more to prog than those 'name' bands coming out of England and pure symphonic prog.. whatever the hell that is hahhaha.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Evans
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Posted: February 05 2008 at 08:53 |
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But were they inspired by the avant-garde vibes of "White light/White Heat" or the simplicity of the two-chord song "Heroin"?
Did the bands they started play progressive music or noisy and loud punk music with lyrics about pimps and drugs?
Again, it's all for arguments sake, as i am one of their biggest supporters on this site :)
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'Let's give it another fifteen seconds..'
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micky
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Posted: February 05 2008 at 08:58 |
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put it this way... the brits.. who know a thing or two about prog.. thought enough about the influence of the VU to devote large sections of their episode on prog/AR with the '7 ages of Rock' series..... TO the VU. Was the episode comprehensive.. of course not... but their influence really is beyond question. Regarless of how punk bands may have taken the 'attitude'... or how many albums they sold... it was who WAS listening to them that matters.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Evans
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Posted: February 05 2008 at 09:11 |
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Then try to get your collaborator friends to see the light as well, micky!
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'Let's give it another fifteen seconds..'
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micky
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Posted: February 05 2008 at 09:15 |
Evans wrote:
Then try to get your collaborator friends to see the light as well, micky!
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hopefully they watch and listen.  .... I tend to stay out of the fray regarding these kinds of addtions..just toss off an opinion or two... The Who were the only one I really cared much to get involved with.. mainly for having their early period recognized as prime importance to what prog was to become.. and not have it stuck away in related..
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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The Velvet Underground
