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Topic ClosedDoes Laurie Anderson belong in the archives?

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Poll Question: Does Laurie Anderson belong in the archives?
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Does Laurie Anderson belong in the archives?
    Posted: July 25 2008 at 19:27
Please express your opinions.
''I always had the repulsive need to be something other than human''-David Bowie
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2008 at 00:41
I don't think of her as a Prog artist, but as a progressive artist and as a performance artist.  I would like to see her in the archives (and it could open the doors to some other interesting additions Evil%20Smile). 
Greg's the name; prog rock, prog paper, prog scissors is my game.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2008 at 00:52
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I don't think of her as a Prog artist, but as a progressive artist and as a performance artist.  I would like to see her in the archives (and it could open the doors to some other interesting additions Evil%20Smile). 
 
Yes Logan, but lets face it, this is a PROG site, there are thousand of progressive artists who aren't here, we should evaluate what benefit is for the site and for Prog in her addition.
 
  1. She's not influential,
  2. Apparently is not influenced by any Prog artist,
  3. Most Prog collectors won't care for her additions,
  4. Her music is extremely basic, her main influence is mainstream.
Prog Related is a place for artists that really represent something for the genre, Bowie, despite the opposition, was a pioneer and influenced the genre, The Who are fathers of the Rock Opera, but Laurie Anderson is not even a trascendental artist, and honestly her addition could open more the gates to unwanted and unrelated additions which would cause more loss of identity.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2008 at 01:23
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I don't think of her as a Prog artist, but as a progressive artist and as a performance artist.  I would like to see her in the archives (and it could open the doors to some other interesting additions Evil%20Smile). 
 
Yes Logan, but lets face it, this is a PROG site, there are thousand of progressive artists who aren't here, we should evaluate what benefit is for the site and for Prog in her addition.

Sure.
 
  1. She's not influential,
  2. Apparently is not influenced by any Prog artist,
  3. Most Prog collectors won't care for her additions,
  4. Her music is extremely basic, her main influence is mainstream.
Prog Related is a place for artists that really represent something for the genre, Bowie, despite the opposition, was a pioneer and influenced the genre, The Who are fathers of the Rock Opera, but Laurie Anderson is not even a trascendental artist, and honestly her addition could open more the gates to unwanted and unrelated additions which would cause more loss of identity.

Yes, I know it could, thus the mischievous evil emoticon. Evil%20Smile 
 
Iván


That's kind of why I'm not going to vote.  Neither poll question represents me.  I would like to see her in the archives, but I would not expect her in the archives.  It's more I'd like her here than she should be here.  Partially because I'm not much of a purist and quite inclusive, and would like to see this site expanding further beyond progressive rock into other progressive avenues (deep down I want to open the doors to artists such as Cage, Stockhausen, Glass, Nyman and eventually Mariah Carrey! LOL).

If we had a specific "progressive electronic related" category, I think there'd be a case.

Incidentally, she has cited influences such as Massenet.
Greg's the name; prog rock, prog paper, prog scissors is my game.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2008 at 01:39
 
^^^^^
 
That's the most honest reply I ever read Logan "It's more I'd like her here than she should be here" ClapClapClap
 
And believe me, it has hapened to most of us, I seen mentioned Meat Loaf hundreds of times, and I've been tempted to say  "What the hell, another one won't hurt,  I love his work and the Steinman piano is rooted in Rock Opera"...But at the end I notice he's just a Hard Rock musician, musically imaginative, of course progressive (His songs have more bridges than the highway to Peruvian mountains LOL and musical changes than King Crimson), but his addition will confuse people who come here for Prog and who are the vast majority.
 
And honestly, she can mention Bach as her influence, but I read Torman Maxt mentions Dream Theater as their influence (I don't like DT, but at least they have talent) and read awebnsites of the most unrelated bands who mention (In this rder) Pink Floyd, King Crimsom, Yes, Genesis, Jethro Tul, Camel Focus and Italian Symphonic. LOL
 
One thing is the influences that artists claim and another one is the real influences, as we say in Spanish "El papel aguanta todo" (Something like the paper accepts any claim).
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2008 at 04:04
Wrote a long reply before the server crashed and lost it all, a reply that include an opposite view to Iván 3rd subpoint above.

But, anyway, I support Laurie Anderson's addition. I offered several times to propose her properly to Prog Related and then, in case she's approved, to take care of the addition. But, after so many delays, it's clear I don't have the proper time to do any of that.

I support her because, even if she's completely leaning on mainstream music, there's still lot of experimentalism, theatrical, avant-texts and fusion. But since it's not enough to be progressive music, Prog Related is very good for her, she can fit in without opening other doors - I think we've feared more for that when several other great rock bands were approved for PR. The early albums, Big Science, Mister Heartbreak and the United States fabulous 4 CD tour sustain her addition in PR.


Edited by Ricochet - July 26 2008 at 04:05
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2008 at 04:56
Ivan:

You almost make it sound like I'm coming clean. Wink When I said before that I'd like her here, that is exactly what I meant (had intended to specify in my first post in this topic).  There's a difference between liking something here and thinking it should be here (of course it can be both).  One notices it a lot in topics here, and is a bit of a peeve, "You should have included this artist" rather than "I wish you had included this artist" when it's purely a subjective appraisal.  As I said in my first post in Mandrake's Laurie Anderson thread (back in October), I do not consider her a Prog artist, a progressive artist but not prog, and so could understand why she wouldn't be considered suitable for the site.  That said I heard qualities that made me think that she could find a place, particularly since this site has been moving/ has moved beyond a  traditional view of Prog (and not just because of including the "non-prog" (or semi prog) categories. I felt she might find a place in "revisionistprogarchives." Incidentally, I should have mentioned that Laurie Anderson cited Massenet as an influence and has adapted music by him.

If this was my site,  she would be here, because her music has experimental and innovative qualities that would fit my vision for a progressive site, but it's not, so I don't want to be presumptuous in saying she should be here -- that others should share my vision at this site.  If the admins, after weighing up the arguments and listening to the music decide that she is acceptible; then great.  If not, I accept it.  I don't think I'd be wrong in wanting her here, but it would be wrong of me in this case to expect the same from those who make those decisions.  And just because I like certain music, of course, does not mean that I would think it suitable for the site.  There's music I dislike that I'd sooner suggest, because, well, I know or suspect it fits.  Of course if I like the music I'll be more passionate about the addition, and if  I think such an addition could expand the parameters of the site in a beneficial progressive way with related additions, then yeah.

I can think of at least one person who is something of an expert in progressive electronic that feels that she could have a place here (and he posted Clap).  I do recognise that she doesn't fit that well under the current site parameters/ guidelines.   But as some wise soul said recently, "one can make a case for most anything as prog (or at least prog related) if you try hard enough.

I've held myself back from making certain recommendations, though.  I had considered suggesting Todd Machoveran experimental composer and inventor from MIT who has done very  interesting innovative music (hyperinstruments/ computer music/ as well as acoustic chamber music) but decided not to, as he's more on the academic music side than rock or rock-related.  In that case more research into his music informed me -- I'd heard some amazing experimental tape-loop operatic music of his on an arts station (somewhat reminscent of some Stockhausen work). Okay, we might both remember that we once discussed Kitaro's merit... I felt there was a  case, whereas you didn't.  It's not always cut and dried.  And I used a to have a considerable number of Kitaro albums (incuding the ones that delved more into rock).  I rmember that part of your argument against Kitaro was that the music was too simple, as with Anderson in this case.  I see it differently, and think that Progressive Electronic need not be that complex.  And you didn't think him that good (of course one doesn't need to be good to be included in the archives).  I don't find his music that simple -- not that complex either, but that's not what I primarily think about when it comes to Electronic Prog (often a very different kettle of sigh to, say, symhonic prog which operates according to different guidelines.  If he were to be evaluated for Prog Related (in this case as a Progressive Electronic Related artist) then one might expect somewhat different criteria than for, say, a Prog Metal Related artist.

Quote Prog Related definition: Progressive rock is not a separate universe in music, it’s a genre among many others, a voice in the chorus and as part of a biggest scenario has points of contact with other musical genres.

I'd argue that it's not even a true genre as it's used now here as its so disparate in styles.

Prog Related is the category that groups bands and artists that:

- Without being 100% Prog, received clear MUSICAL influence of this genre, OR

I've heard many times from high-ups that it's a non-prog category, which can indicate an absence of prog (guess it depends on the context -- I think of it a little differently).  Some consider Lou Reed, Anderson's partner, as prog-related, and I know he's influenced her music. At the least I think Anderson related to prog related, which still makes her realted, just a little farthr romoved.  I had once, not so seriiously suggested a "Related to Prog Related" category, as well as a "Related to Related to Prog Related" category -- another nefarious attempt to further dilute the prog purity of this site by me.

- Are widely accepted as MUSICALLY influential to the development of Progressive Rock by the community, OR

She wouldn't fit there, even if she has infleunced progressive music.  The widely accepted kinda counts against obscure artists that somehow magically influenced it when no one ven knew who they were. LOL

- Blend characteristics of Progressive Rock with mainstream elements creating a final product that despite not being part of the genre is evident that are close to Prog.

I tend to think that Anderson does blend characteristics of progressive ... won't say rock necessarily, but progressive electronic as illustrated by artists in the archives, and blended it with aminstream elements creating a final product that despite not being part of the subgenre is evident that has significant similarities. Okay, there's a bit of a problem when I limit it to Progressive Electronic rather than just Prog since I may take out the Prog part of the equation from ElectronicIn other words, blends electronic with amianstream rather than specifically progressive electronic. One could quite easily mistake an Electronic (but not Progressive Electronic) artist for a  Progressive Electronic Related artist. Never mind, it's very late.

We specify the word MUSICAL because simple performance of a determined instrument in a Prog or mainstream band is not justification enough to include an artist, no matter how virtuoso he/she may be, Prog Archives has to evaluate their compositional work because the music is what determines the characteristics of a band or an artist.

Yes, the musician may be good or bad, but it's the composition that matters most.  I mean, sometimes you have very poorly execute prog compositions, but they still come out as prog since it still has the compositional qualities one looks for -- it's possible (sloppy played prog, but prog none-the-less).

Prog Related bands are not considered part of the genre but they have contributed in some form in the development of Progressive Rock, the inclusion of a band is exceptional and only after verifying that it’s a contribution for the better understanding of Prog among the members and visitors instead of a source of confusion for the community.

Ah, now I understand the non-prog comments made by some more... I guess cause I don't tend to think of it as a genre as we use it here (more an umbrealls of styles/ approaches)When i think of Prog as a genre, I do think of those classic bands like Yes, ELP etc.


Forgetting the definitions used at this site for the moment, and definitions can change (sometimes we define things into existence, and then negate other things because of our rigid definitions): I think people like Laurie Anderson could fall into the shadowy realms of progressive music (not all is really rock, and not all is complex or sounds like what most would think of as Prog) that is represented at this site (or we could define her a place, not that I'm really suggesting it).

I have great respect for the Ground and Sky site, and they include Big Science (the album I primarily based my liking her here on)  I also refer to babyblaue prog reviews a lot when looking for album info particularly (not that we should follow their examples as they probably have their own criteria).  Note: I came up with the thought that Laurie Anderson may be a worthwhile addition independently:

Ground and Sky review - Laurie Anderson - Big Science

Babyblaue Prog-Reviews: Laurie Anderson

 So maybe it's not as far-fetched as some think, and maybe it's more far-fetched than others think. Having only heard in full two of her albums, I'm hardly an expert (Big Science alone was enough  for me to make a connection, but that connection lies outside PA definitions; current or otherwise).

I rather like this little write up from The New Yorker: Night Life: Night Life: The New Yorker

Quote HIGHLINE BALLROOM

431 W. 16th St. (212-414-5994)—May 17-18: Laurie Anderson’s performances are not the multimedia events that they used to be, but they do hit on a variety of levels. Her small group (usually a trio, though her husband, Lou Reed, has been known to sit in) creates a blend of keyboard, synthesizer, violin, and guitar sounds, sometimes rhythmic, sometimes breaking through the strictures of time signatures and achieving a meditative euphoria. But the most arresting instrument in the band is Anderson’s voice. Often, she’s not singing so much as speaking in pitch, every word precisely presented, offering lyrics that are epigrammatic, politically and culturally astute, funny, and cosmic. To quote from “Transitory Life,” one of her recent compositions, “It takes a long time for a mouse to realize he’s in a trap, but, once he does, something inside him never stops shaking.” (Part of the High Line Festival.) May 19: The Secret Machines started off as a Texas trio, then decamped to Brooklyn to bring their sprawling sound and sense-engulfing live shows to a larger audience. After two popular and critically acclaimed major-label albums, the guitarist Benjamin Curtis has announced that he is heading out on his own. The band, known for a prog-ish, stentorian approach, is now entering a new phase. (Part of the High Line Festival.)

Incidentally, quite a number of progressive or progressive related artists such as Igor's Egg - " LDS - "~V~" Gravity Tree , JESUS DIESTRE and BLISSFUL BEHEMOTH cite Laurie Anderson as an influence, for what it's worth.  Maybe not big names in the progressive scene, but she's had an effect.  If I really researched I very much expect that I'd come up with a number of names in the archives that cite here as an inspiration.

As for Laurie Anderson's possible inclusion, one could think of a suitable prog description (if she were prog enough), I'd say Progressive Electronic/ Expermental/ Art Rock then (using prog parameters, otherwise I'd add others).  Then for Prog Related one would think if she has sufficient relation to artists in those categories.  Duh.  In Progressive Electronic (an important base point for me) they tend to look for bands with a significant psych element -- is here sufficient psych elements to make the "related" connection?  I thought of her because of her experimental, progressive approach.

Rico: That's, in a nutshell, why I had thought that she'd be a worthy addition to the site.

I'm glad I copied my post before the forums were unavailable since it's a fairly longish one.  And now it's failing to connect.  Ah, gotcha.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2008 at 07:18
Good posr Logan, bu tI ask you a question..... Related to Prog Related?
 
Isn't hat forcing too much the boundaries?
 
The site has already accepted the inclusion to atists related to Prog, as an example artists from a Prog band are almost pre-accepted to Prog Related, but it's specifically said that artists from Prog Related bands won't be  accepted as individual additions.
 
The point is clear. Prog Related is a non PROG category, so what's the sense of adding an artist rellated to a non Prog artists or band?
 
Quote Yes, the musician may be good or bad, but it's the composition that matters most.  I mean, sometimes you have very poorly execute prog compositions, but they still come out as prog since it still has the compositional qualities one looks for -- it's possible (sloppy played prog, but prog none-the-less).
 
I think you don't get the point here, and I believe Iknow what is, because I wrote that definition. Wink
 
Composition only, because this is a music based site, and performance alone means nothing, The Scissor Sisters played a cover version pf "Cofortably Numb, it's a Prog song, but they are non prog artuists, they just played a Prog song.
 
Michale Jackson could buy the rights (he done it before Wink) of Genesis Gabriel era, sing completely Nursery Cryms, byt his performance alone, doesn't make him a Prog artist, only a Pop mutant (The mutant is for obvious reasons) that PERFORMED a Prog album.
 
And about the sites, we shouldn't trust them, unless we are talking of an almost unanympus option, remember, Progressive Ears has added Jerry Lee Lewis and Stevie Wonder, and this doesn't make them Prog.
 
Laurie is accepted by two ALBUM BASED SITES (Not of the top ones like Proggnosis, Progressor, Progressive Ears or GEPR ), this doesn't mean she should be here, this sites add reviews of even non Prog ALBUMS, they don't define Prog Artist (Not completely sure about Ground & Sky)..
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2008 at 07:31
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Good posr Logan, bu tI ask you a question..... Related to Prog Related?
 
Isn't hat forcing too much the boundaries?
 
The site has already accepted the inclusion to atists related to Prog, as an example artists from a Prog band are almost pre-accepted to Prog Related, but it's specifically said that artists from Prog Related bands won't be  accepted as individual additions.
 
The point is clear. Prog Related is a non PROG category, so what's the sense of adding an artist rellated to a non Prog artists or band?



Not sure I understand this.
Who said Laurie Anderson would be related to a non-Prog band - I mean, who said we would add her based on that?
I think we're trying to add her as a non-Prog artist with, however, enough progressive characteristics that could "relate".


Edited by Ricochet - July 26 2008 at 07:36
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2008 at 07:38
Originally posted by Ricochet Ricochet wrote:


Who said Laurie Anderson would be related to a non-Prog band - I mean, who said we would add her based on that?

 
Please Rico, read Logan's post:
 
Quote Some consider Lou Reed, Anderson's partner, as prog-related, and I know he's influenced her music. At the least I think Anderson related to prog related,
 
Ok, now go by steps.
 
  1. Prog Related = NON PROG (bY DEFINITION)
  2. Logan said she's Related to a  non Related artist

This means Related to NON PROG

For God's sake. Lou Reed is not even here, so what was the point of mentioning she's related or influenced by Lou Reed, a non Prog and non Prog Related artist????
 
That's said, I go back to bed, it's 6:30 am and I was with insomnia since two hours ago.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 26 2008 at 07:44
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2008 at 07:44
Originally posted by Iván_Melgar_M Iván_Melgar_M wrote:

Please Rico, read Logan's post:
 
Quote Some consider Lou Reed, Anderson's partner, as prog-related, and I know he's influenced her music. At the least I think Anderson related to prog related,
 
Ok, now go nby steps.
 
  1. Prog Related = NON PROG (bY DEFINITION)
  2. Logan said she's Related to a  non Related artist

This means Related to NON PROG

For God's sake. Lou Reed is not even here, so what was the point of mentioning she's related or influenced by Lou Reed, a non Prog and non Prog Related artist????
 
That's the inference step by step.
 
Iván


OK, but after the all, the argument above can't be used for her addition, I'm sure even Logan would agree.

Logan said "some consider", but while it shouldn't mean Lou Reed is NON PROG because he's NOT ON PA, it also shouldn't really mean the point here that Lou Reed = PR, Lou Reed = Laurie Anderson => Laurie Anderson = PR

Back to my statement, I'm sure that if we judge Laurie Anderson in the right way to judge an artist for PR, she wouldn't put much problems in being accepted as PR.

I know Micky and Raff once even considered her best albums (the early stuff) good for Crossover. But PR is the better place indeed.

Edited by Ricochet - July 26 2008 at 07:44
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2008 at 08:24
I only know of her early career, and her minimalism was maybe (just maybe) taken from Can or Kluster
 
 
Let's fave superman is miniůalist, but it's not prog (or even progressive) and does everything to not resemble it
OverallI'd rather she's not in PAI , wouldn't fight her inclusion all the way
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2008 at 09:54

I'll fight for her inclusion.

She definitly is prog related IMO
''I always had the repulsive need to be something other than human''-David Bowie
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2008 at 15:21
I won't go into much detail now because I'm just preparing for my daughter's birthday party -- 5 years old today.  Lou Reed is considered prog related by some due to his contributions to Art Rock.  I take a different approach to PR than the site definitions -- personally I would change them especially those percent mentions "Without being 100% Prog" since I don't like such quantification, especially when what is prog is debatable.  If a band is only 99% Prog then is it not suitable for a prog category? I see Prog-Related in part as semi-prog rather than non-prog, or music shares shares similar compositional approaches to artists in prog categories.  Or it just doesn't fit the sites current progressive categories.

The Related to Prog Related relates to comments I sometimes make such as "Sure so and so is prog Related, the question is how closely Related?"  Related to Prog Related is meant in a rather humorous train of thought way.  I've actually mentioned this idea a number of times, only partially seriously.  Please see this topic of mine as it should provide added context: Proto [insert Prog genre] and Related bands (click)
I've humorously suggested a Related to Related to Prog Related category before.


And yes, agree with Sean Trane.  Actually, i don't know how closely her minimalism relates to Can or Kluster -- I've likened her to people like Philip Glass, and various electronic minimalist composers.


Edited by Logan - July 26 2008 at 15:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2008 at 19:45
Very late, but conversation died before, and I didn't have the mind (as I was very busy) to properly explain before, but my comment about "...Some consider Lou Reed, Anderson's partner, as prog-related, and I know he's influenced her music..." was meant to bring  a little levity to the post.  Related in the sense of a "familial" (partner) relation who is related to Prog, but not meant to be taken as a serious part of an argument.  It's the music that matters, not who one is a partnered with.  At the same time, I do believe that to be fair, and I try to do so, one should try to refer to both strengths and weaknesses of a postion (offer an argument and counter-argument -- pros and cons -- when it comes to evaluation).  We're not trying "win" place for people here, we're exploring the possibility, then it's up to the admin to decide.

I think musically she has quite a  bit in common with artists in Progressive Electronic and Krautrock (in part her minimalist approach), and has Art Rock/ Crossover credentials.  But as I said in this thread Laurie Anderson
 I don't think she's Prog, progressive, avant-garde, quirky, and experimental, but not Prog; however, I do think her approach to music makes her considerable for PR as a related artist (an interesting case, anyway, I think).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2008 at 02:26
I am not an expert on Laurie Anderson by any means, but I'd like to point out one important fact. If, according to the new guidelines for controversial additions, their presence on other prog sites is one of the defining factors to be taken into account, she is included in the databases of three of the foremost prog sites: ProgressiveEars, GEPR and ProgGnosis. I would take it to mean that there are other knowledgeable people around who consider her output to be at least prog-related.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2008 at 03:15
To make it here an act needs to be either progressive or Prog, or, best of all, both. Laurie Anderson is, I think, the former but not the latter. That makes her acceptance here somewhat problematic. I'd be happy to see her here, based on just about everything she's done.

Again, it comes down to what the guardians of the site want. Prog, progressive or both? If both, then she should be here.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2008 at 03:59
Prog Related ..  bring her in  Approve
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2008 at 05:40
A point raised above is almost worth starting a new thread for:
 
Should an artist being an influence on other artists be a factor in classifying whether he/she/they is (are) considered progressive or not.
 
Surely an artist can be progressive without growing a horde of imitators?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2008 at 06:35
Ok, here are my two cents: HELL NO.
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