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Pekka View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Representative albums for each genre
    Posted: March 08 2009 at 13:56
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

At the same time, I agree with Raff that a band as important as ELP needs to be better represented at least on the symph prog page - being that they are classified as  symph prog - if not on the main page.  What is the solution? Perhaps to introduce a separate ranking on the basis of importance and influence and then list the most representative albums of a sub genre and the genre as a whole prominently. We can still have the best album lists so if you are like "F*** influence, I want to listen to the best albums" then you will get a good guide for that too.  That way, the system remains democratic and also gives credit where due.  What do you think?


This thought came to me too when reading Raff's response to my earlier post (shouldn't have gone away for the weekend so I would've been the first one to suggest it Big smile). Perhaps the sub-genre specialists (I've got the impression that there's a sort of an expert team for every subgenre, right?) should get together and discuss for example the top 5 most representative albums of  crossover prog, heavy prog, symphonic prog and so on. Then on the subgenre pages there would be the people's voice (Canterbury Scene top rated albums) and perhaps above that the experts' "objective" list of the most representative albums of the named genre. Five or something albums with short explanations why they capture the essence of the sub-genre in question.

Make any sense? There's no point in making any general polls of these, it would just be another popularity contest, but if the selected few would put their preferences aside and try to think as "objectively" as possible, it could very well work.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2009 at 15:02
In response to the notion of a "key albums" list: Easier yet, we could just bring the old algorithm back (to a separate list) - one that weighs the number of ratings more highly than our current algorithm. With minor exception, you'd end up with a list of all the important albums, because those generally receive more ratings (good or not-so-good). This would eliminate any possibility of argument over subjective choices for key albums.

Realistically, I don't expect to see any sort of key albums thing being added to this site any time soon, though.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2009 at 15:21
Originally posted by Keppa4v Keppa4v wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

At the same time, I agree with Raff that a band as important as ELP needs to be better represented at least on the symph prog page - being that they are classified as  symph prog - if not on the main page.  What is the solution? Perhaps to introduce a separate ranking on the basis of importance and influence and then list the most representative albums of a sub genre and the genre as a whole prominently. We can still have the best album lists so if you are like "F*** influence, I want to listen to the best albums" then you will get a good guide for that too.  That way, the system remains democratic and also gives credit where due.  What do you think?


This thought came to me too when reading Raff's response to my earlier post (shouldn't have gone away for the weekend so I would've been the first one to suggest it Big smile). Perhaps the sub-genre specialists (I've got the impression that there's a sort of an expert team for every subgenre, right?) should get together and discuss for example the top 5 most representative albums of  crossover prog, heavy prog, symphonic prog and so on. Then on the subgenre pages there would be the people's voice (Canterbury Scene top rated albums) and perhaps above that the experts' "objective" list of the most representative albums of the named genre. Five or something albums with short explanations why they capture the essence of the sub-genre in question.

Make any sense? There's no point in making any general polls of these, it would just be another popularity contest, but if the selected few would put their preferences aside and try to think as "objectively" as possible, it could very well work.


Yes, there are indeed a number of genre teams, and there have been for some time nowWink. We are in charge of subgenres, which means evaluating bands and adding them, moving them around when necessary, updating bios and relevant info, and so on. However, the Top 20 lists present on every subgenre's page are exclusively based on the ratings expressed by site members, which means it does not reflect our opinion as genre team members.

Actually, the issue of having a Collabs Top 20 (or something of that sort) has been recently discussed in the Collabs zone, but as usual these suggestions take time to be implemented because of 'real life' issues. Anyway, I'd suggest this discussion should be taken outside this thread, so it can be visible to other people, and elicit comments and suggestions.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2009 at 15:22
yes.. it has been discussed several times in depth...  whether it comes to pass is another matter....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2009 at 15:33
Originally posted by Sckxyss Sckxyss wrote:

In response to the notion of a "key albums" list: Easier yet, we could just bring the old algorithm back (to a separate list) - one that weighs the number of ratings more highly than our current algorithm. With minor exception, you'd end up with a list of all the important albums, because those generally receive more ratings (good or not-so-good). This would eliminate any possibility of argument over subjective choices for key albums.

Realistically, I don't expect to see any sort of key albums thing being added to this site any time soon, though.


I think that would again put more weight to popularity than the actual features of the music. Rather than how many people have heard the album? the question should be how well does the album represent this genre of music?

Your last sentence is probably true, but still I think this is an idea worth toying around.

Edited by Keppa4v - March 08 2009 at 15:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2009 at 03:58
The initial posts in this thread have been exctracted from here: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=56147
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2009 at 21:21
Do you think we could actually discuss which representative albums that are not in the top 100 will you include?? I mean as much as I love "Brain Salad Surgery" Iknow that this will require a lot of time from Administrators Collabs and all those involved while I am just sitting in my chair parroting "Yeah , Include the whole ELP catalog and Focus 3 on that list man!!"
 
So if the list we came up is pretty big ( and objective) that may be a start
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2009 at 11:45
The idea that the representative album needs to be from outside the top 100 seems to indicate that somehow there is an obscure album out there that defines a genre better than one that many have declared to be "great".

If you're looking to get into a genre, any genre, starting with one of the top 10 albums from that genre's list is not exactly a flawed concept. Should I be bothered by the fact that Klaatu's Hope is not listed in the top 10 in Symphonic ? The Genesis and Yes albums at the top of that chart are good starting points.
There are some genres that are harder to pin down, such as eclectic. But then what aspects of eclectic would need to be highlighted in a band's music to make it represent such a varied genre ?

Make things easier on yourself, save some needless work for members, and use the existing wealth of information. The goal is already achieved.A spotlight to be shone on a group's album that has not managed to garner sufficient attention & admiration to stand out from the masses will not make it more representative, nor more worthwhile of enjoying such a "title".

If anything , such promotion is left to the fan. Its' supporter(s) and fan(s) are able to post reviews, start threads, and also mention said album(s) in any relevant discussion. If there is sufficient interest, or that enough people bother to listen to it, like it enough, and review or rate it enough, it will eventually attain your goal.
On the other hand, you must acknowledge that it is possible that the opposite may happen. People's curiosity is piqued, they go out & get it, listen to it, dislike it, rate & review it to express this view, and it ends up in the same place where it began if not lower.

SO highlighting what you believe is the overlooked textbook case for a genre does not make for a solid case in putting it ahead of other albums that the community have come to state are examplars of a genre.
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2009 at 13:16
I did not read all the thread's post but in the SUB-GENRE page, below the MOST POPULAR ALBUM
we can list the GENRE EXPERT UNKNOW GEM TO DISCOVER , or something like that.

Picked manualy from time to time...

Good job guys
Prog On !
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2009 at 13:21
I think that would be a GREAT idea M@X..  We can have the popular albums.... then the albums that really define the particular sub-genre.   Ratings and reviews do not often make that distinction.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2009 at 13:24
Why not starting this movement with the RPI ;-)
Prog On !
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2009 at 13:27
hahahhah.. .I know just the man to put in charge of that M@X... let me page him. 

He's already got the list...  he's been using it to help steer people here in the forums.  I'll have him post it here.... thanks again brother. Clap
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2009 at 13:27
That's a great idea , RPI has loads of unknown masterpieces.
 
But don't forget that this change is brought to us  maily by "Brain Salad Surgery"Approve (I think)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2009 at 13:37
^ ELP's debut album Angry LOL 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2009 at 13:52
Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:

The idea that the representative album needs to be from outside the top 100 seems to indicate that somehow there is an obscure album out there that defines a genre better than one that many have declared to be "great".

If you're looking to get into a genre, any genre, starting with one of the top 10 albums from that genre's list is not exactly a flawed concept. Should I be bothered by the fact that Klaatu's Hope is not listed in the top 10 in Symphonic ? The Genesis and Yes albums at the top of that chart are good starting points.
There are some genres that are harder to pin down, such as eclectic. But then what aspects of eclectic would need to be highlighted in a band's music to make it represent such a varied genre ?

Make things easier on yourself, save some needless work for members, and use the existing wealth of information. The goal is already achieved.A spotlight to be shone on a group's album that has not managed to garner sufficient attention & admiration to stand out from the masses will not make it more representative, nor more worthwhile of enjoying such a "title".

If anything , such promotion is left to the fan. Its' supporter(s) and fan(s) are able to post reviews, start threads, and also mention said album(s) in any relevant discussion. If there is sufficient interest, or that enough people bother to listen to it, like it enough, and review or rate it enough, it will eventually attain your goal.
On the other hand, you must acknowledge that it is possible that the opposite may happen. People's curiosity is piqued, they go out & get it, listen to it, dislike it, rate & review it to express this view, and it ends up in the same place where it began if not lower.

SO highlighting what you believe is the overlooked textbook case for a genre does not make for a solid case in putting it ahead of other albums that the community have come to state are examplars of a genre.


I am sorry to contradict you, Claude, but we should know by now that - at least under the current system - the community is not 100% reliable, far from that. We all know about the attempts to manipulate the ratings  in order to get a given album a higher or a lower placement in the Top 100. Until we allow anyone who registers to the site to rate an album (often without even bothering to review it), any 'recommendations' based on those ratings should be taken with a good pinch of salt.

A practical example: the top rated album in Heavy Prog is Rush's Moving Pictures. Now, as great an album as it is, it is in NO WAY the most representative album of the subgenre. It is simply one of the best-known, and easiest to find. On the other hand, there are a lot of albums in HP by more obscure bands that, in my opinion, would represent the main features of the subgenre much better than MP - but , if we have to rely on the community's judgement, they will never have a chance to be spotlighted.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2009 at 13:54
^ exactly Raff.... that is the heart of the matter.. to say NOTHING of the mess that is the folk-prog and RIO-avant 'lists'

half ..to most those albums aren't even a part of the sub-genres...this is an idea.. whose time has WELL come.


Edited by micky - March 10 2009 at 13:55
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2009 at 16:04
Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:

The idea that the representative album needs to be from outside the top 100 seems to indicate that somehow there is an obscure album out there that defines a genre better than one that many have declared to be "great".

Has there been such an idea? I've never meant to say so and I haven't seen anyone else either.

Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

I am sorry to contradict you, Claude, but we should know by now that - at least under the current system - the community is not 100% reliable, far from that. We all know about the attempts to manipulate the ratings  in order to get a given album a higher or a lower placement in the Top 100. Until we allow anyone who registers to the site to rate an album (often without even bothering to review it), any 'recommendations' based on those ratings should be taken with a good pinch of salt.

One must have a massive campaign involving many people if one wants to really make a difference in ratings with wordless reviews. A good example came a while back with the new Overhead album, there were two two star reviews by prog reviewers and two four star reviews, one by a prog reviewer and one wordless by someone anonymous. This equalled to 2.71 if I remember right. Then I wrote a five star review with 800+ words, and that altered the overall rating 0,2 points. With only four reviews submitted earlier. So if there's a popular album that you want to see rated higher, you'll find yourself creating accounts for weeks to see any difference. I think the current system pretty accurately tells what people really think.

In my original suggestion I didn't mean this as a "now these are really the good albums of the genre" type of thing, just an interesting alternative for those who really want to get to know what the style is all about. I'm sure no one means it that way, I just want to make it clear Smile


M@x's idea sounds very nice too Clap


Edited by Keppa4v - March 11 2009 at 01:13
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2009 at 14:36
My main point was that it seems that we're saying that none of the  albums that form the top 100 list for a genre are representative of the genre.
I just see it as a way for someone to do the same thing we accuse the fanboys - goose up a favourite of ours.

I prefer M@x's description - unknown gem(s) to discover. And isn't that really the real point of presenting such an album ? That would allow us to use our expertise in giving a spotlight for the overlooked albums, without somehow saying that said album is really the textbook example of a genre compared to those that most actually like. (i.e. y'all are wrong, this is the best genre x album)

That's something that's kept me here - the wealth of information on lesser known, even obscure bands and albums that CAN be worthy of one's time & attention ( & $$$) even though they have not or do not enjoy the popularity of others. But the top 100 lists have also been the best starting point in getting more into prog. The best known bands & albums are there for a reason. Yes, there is some "fan boosting" in some cases. Does that apply to King Crimson's In the Court of the Crimson King, or just to Dream Theater albums ? Evil Smile

Sign me up for Night Sun.
Just stay away from the "representative" tag. The top 100 lists must surely include at least a few that can stand as examplars of their genre.


Edited by debrewguy - March 11 2009 at 14:49
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2009 at 14:59
I can't imagine anyone thinking that none of the top 100 (or top twenty for each category which is what we should be specifically talking about) don't have representative albums for that category. Of course the all-genres top 100 doesn't even have a Raga Rock representative, but then it doesn't matter for our purposes

........................................................................................

Incidentally, even if we don't implement the secondary "genre" list (the representative albums list as an additional list in the category), the chosen list could be included as part of the text under the category definition as recommended albums for getting a good feel for the category (one album per chosen band ideally).


Edited by Logan - March 11 2009 at 15:04
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2009 at 15:44
Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:

My main point was that it seems that we're saying that none of the  albums that form the top 100 list for a genre are representative of the genre.
I just see it as a way for someone to do the same thing we accuse the fanboys - goose up a favourite of ours.

That's why I made the point that such a thing should be avoided at all costs. Few people with a lot of knowledge of the genre, favourites forgotten, thinking as "objectively" as possible. I think it wouldn't matter if half of the chosen albums were on the top of the best rated albums list, that list keeps on changing slightly from time to time when new people get to know them, but this would be more of a permanent thing.

The lesser known gems thingy is really a great idea too and much easier to make happen, so maybe more thought should be given to that?
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