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Do the Beatles get too much credit..

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Logan View Drop Down
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    Posted: August 28 2010 at 14:55
Undoubtedly the Beatles were hugely influential (has been incredibly popular), but do you think/feel that the Beatles commonly get too much credit and/or consideration in terms of innovation and origination?

I certainly think so.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Triceratopsoil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2010 at 15:04
Maybe a little bit too much credit, especially in recent times, but really I think it's deservedly so.  They were one of the groups that showed other people "hey, you know, it's alright to play whatever music we want" and from that stemmed nearly all later music, popular and less so, even if the bands in question aren't influenced in the slightest by the music of the Beatles.  It was the concept of creativity for the masses that makes them so important
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote J-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2010 at 15:11
Absolutely not. They're one of the only bands that was immensely popular but never caved in to the record industry. Their early albums are a bit overrated IMO, but the later masterpieces definitely make up for it in the end. One of the most influential, and best, bands ever.

Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2010 at 15:35
I don't think many would dispute, any more than I would, that The Beatles were hugely influential and had a tremendous impact on music, but in terms of origination of musical ideas and true innovation, I think they're overrated. I don't doubt their importance at all, and I like this statement "It was the concept of creativity for the masses that makes them so important." What I do suspect is that they were being given exposure to a lot of underground music that was more innovative (asnd more musically astute associates such as George Martin helped to elevate the music).  I listen to the Beatles albums, and I can think of many more, that I would think, were more musically creative/ inventive before them. They popularised such ideas, I would say, but I doubt that they were as originative as quite a few claim.

Some claim that Sgt. Peppers was the first Prog album, but I hear others from the same time and earlier that seem like much more progressive rock.  It was an important album to Prog, I won't deny that.  I've seen claims made that tthat The Beatles originated Psychadelic Rock and Raga Rock, which is not true.  Musicians/ composers borrow ideas for music. Music is not born in a vacuum, other than the Hoover Symphony was born in a vacuum cleaner, and they adapt, that's progress, but I think that those who influenced The Beatles are not getting enough credit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elder08 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2010 at 16:23
I had this argument with someone the other day about who was better muscially Pink Floyd or The Beatles and I said while the beatles have inspired probably every popular artist today immensely, Pink Floyd pretty much had one kindofsortofnotreally bad album and were pretty much Omega good from the start

"There are people who say we [Pink Floyd] should make room for younger bands. That's not the way it works. They can make their own room."- David Gilmour
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2010 at 16:26
And in the end, maybe, I don't really care...
I think they get the credit they are due.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jammun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2010 at 16:30
My stock answer:
 
Go listen the the American Graffiti soundtrack.  Now go listen to the first couple of Beatles albums.
 
Then tell me who was innovating.
Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Triceratopsoil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2010 at 16:35
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

They popularised such ideas, I would say


and that's the key difference


Edited by Triceratopsoil - August 28 2010 at 16:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UndercoverBoy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2010 at 16:57
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I don't think many would dispute, any more than I would, that The Beatles were hugely influential and had a tremendous impact on music, but in terms of origination of musical ideas and true innovation, I think they're overrated. I don't doubt their importance at all, and I like this statement "It was the concept of creativity for the masses that makes them so important." What I do suspect is that they were being given exposure to a lot of underground music that was more innovative (asnd more musically astute associates such as George Martin helped to elevate the music).  I listen to the Beatles albums, and I can think of many more, that I would think, were more musically creative/ inventive before them. They popularised such ideas, I would say, but I doubt that they were as originative as quite a few claim.

Some claim that Sgt. Peppers was the first Prog album, but I hear others from the same time and earlier that seem like much more progressive rock.  It was an important album to Prog, I won't deny that.  I've seen claims made that tthat The Beatles originated Psychadelic Rock and Raga Rock, which is not true.  Musicians/ composers borrow ideas for music. Music is not born in a vacuum, other than the Hoover Symphony was born in a vacuum cleaner, and they adapt, that's progress, but I think that those who influenced The Beatles are not getting enough credit.
Agreed 100%.  I've nothing more to add.

Edited by UndercoverBoy - August 28 2010 at 16:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2010 at 17:14
They deserve every shred of credit.........but the show must go on
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2010 at 17:27
Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

They deserve every shred of credit.........but the show must go on


This article is for you then, "The Beatles are the most creative band of all time": http://www.starcrost.com/entertainment/beatles.php
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UndercoverBoy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2010 at 17:41
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

They deserve every shred of credit.........but the show must go on


This article is for you then, "The Beatles are the most creative band of all time": http://www.starcrost.com/entertainment/beatles.php
And this article probably isn't.Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2010 at 17:42
Originally posted by UndercoverBoy UndercoverBoy wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

They deserve every shred of credit.........but the show must go on


This article is for you then, "The Beatles are the most creative band of all time": http://www.starcrost.com/entertainment/beatles.php
And this article probably isn't.Tongue


LOL LOL
LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2010 at 17:42
^^^ Interesting reading, particularly referencing Macca at the most popular songwriter, not necessarily the best. Personally I would put Lennon above Macca for songwriting. They are influential beyond comprehension and hit the music scene at the best possible time. Comparing Beatles to PF would be futile IMO because they impacted different decades while in their prime.
 
I know this will be frowned upon but in many respects subjective opinions do carry more weight when you were actually there. For example a 20 year old gives Let It Be a three star review and he/she cannot understand all the hype about the album would have to have been around in the NOW to fully appreciate it. Yet to counter that I fully believe that The Beatles will end up being the biggest band of all time for millenia. That would be the popular beliefWink
 
Now the best.....


Edited by Chris S - August 28 2010 at 17:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2010 at 17:44
Originally posted by UndercoverBoy UndercoverBoy wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

They deserve every shred of credit.........but the show must go on


This article is for you then, "The Beatles are the most creative band of all time": http://www.starcrost.com/entertainment/beatles.php
And this article probably isn't.Tongue
LOL, I ain't gonna read it.Too much negative energy..LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caretaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2010 at 18:03
I've never been a big Beatles fan but to answer the question I voted no. It seemed like after they did the pop thing their financial success freed them up to do more creative and innovative things which I give them credit for. And they certainly influenced quite a lot of other musicians as they were influenced  by the artists of  their era.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Icarium Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2010 at 19:33
Pet Sounds Pet Sounds Pet Sounds Pet Sounds Pet Sounds +++++, it is the first prog-related album and is verry inovative album, probably not the best but it is damn good, record which sadly are to overshadowed by Sg Pepper...,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2010 at 20:54
I think, as with Metallica, people get carried away in the business of firsts when it comes to Beatles, but there's no denying their influence and importance.  Besides, at least in my opinion, they were the best of the big bands, be it pop or rock.  It takes a lot of guts to go the 'other way' when you are a successful band and to sign off with arguably your best album.  Beatles did it and I can't think of any other big band who have lived up to their example or their quality.   

EDIT:  Oops, I voted Yes when I meant to say No. Ouch


Edited by rogerthat - August 28 2010 at 20:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Floydman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2010 at 21:27
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Undoubtedly the Beatles were hugely influential (has been incredibly popular), but do you think/feel that the Beatles commonly get too much credit and/or consideration in terms of innovation and origination?

I certainly think so.
 
They deserve the status as being THE MOST INFLUENTIAL ROCK/POP BAND EVER.
 
Get back to me when you can find evidence of a rock group—any  rock group in 1966, but, perhaps even more notably, using multitrack recording to produce something like "Tomorrow Never Knows" and then using their platform as the Most Popular Band in the world to expose millions of listeners to those new sounds
 
If anything the Beatles were the biggest influence overall on early progressive rockers and psychedelic rock.
The Beatles had influences like everyone else but they came in sounding like no one else "A Hard Day's Night", "I Want to Hold Your Hand", "If I Fell" etc,. The early Kinks, Yardbirds, and The Rolling Stones  all sounded like blues wannabees.
 
The fact the Beatles were the main cog in the British Invasion and George Harrison use of the Ricky12 string guitar really launched folk-rock. The chord usage on songs like "If I Fell" floored people like Bob Dylan and The Byrds and was miles ahead of people like the Rolling Stones and the blues based peers. People like Brian Wilson thought Rubber Soul was the first album that was a complete statement.
 
 
Are you kidding me - from a pop music song structure to recording engineering standpoint - you're hard pressed to NOT hear the Beatles influence everywhere in modern pop recordings.   Music progresses and people create different styles and techniques. The psychedelic use as a studio instrument for example like loops, varispeeding, backward tape was already a different style than say Brian Wilson or Phil Spector.

Strawberry Fields Forever" was constructed uniquely..

There are edits of three sections taken from two different takes. 0:00 to 0:55 is take 7, 0:55 to 1:00 is another section of take 7, and 1:00 to end is take 26. It is fairly well known that take 26 was really faster and in a higher key, and that slowing it down to match the tempo also brought into the same key. The idea of the edit is credited to the songwriter, John Lennon, while its execution, involving the manipulation of tape speed and the use of the 5-second bridge segment, is credited to the producer, George Martin.

It's unlikely that many (or any) recordings done prior to 1962 featured splicing of tape to combine takes or bouncing of tracks. 2 track tape machines (later 4, 8, 16, 24 and on) were not widely available until Studer and Telefunken devloped them their versions in the late 50's/early 60's. Prior to that recordings were mainly made direct to disc - making combining takes impossible. Later in the 60's, some of those direct to disc performances were transferred to tape and performances could then be edited/combined after that.

It's a fact that The Beatles' ideas and demands pushed engineers like Norman Smith, Geoff Emerick, Chris Thomas, Glynn Johns, Alan Parsons etc. to develop new techniques that formed the groundwork for modern digital editing we see today with Protools, etc.

Knowing an recording engineer. I promise you that if you read up on Beatles recording techniques you'll be astounded at how many things their engineers did for the first time as crazy, rule-breaking ideas, experiments, etc. that have since become common practice in modern day recording and editing. Necessity was the mother of invention in their case.

Are you kidding me - from a pop music song structure to recording engineering standpoint - you're hard pressed to NOT hear the Beatles influence everywhere in modern pop recordings. Let's see: some of these not of course invented by the Beatles but certainly invented new ways in using these techniques in creating a rock sound.

Use of heavy limiting on drums and guitar (pioneered on Revolver, rarely if ever used before by anyone) - everywhere these days
High use of treble and equalization of guitars and vocals (rare before Beatles Rubber Soul) - everywhere afterwards
Key changes in middle 8/bridges of songs - everywhere
Use of weird/experimental guitar chords in pop songs (VERY IN ROCK MUSIC before the Beatles) - now everywhere
Artificial Double Tracking - invented by Beatles Engineer Ken Townsend, now used in one form or another on almost every song by anyone
Guitar fuzz box/distortion pedal on bass used by the Beatles "Think For Yourself"  during Rubber Soul sessions. You might hear these nowadays too
Pioneering use of vocal effects like phasing/revolving Leslie/etc. - pioneered by the Beatles on Revolver, used extensively on Sgt Peppers - used everywhere you hear any slightly psychedelic sounding song
Direct Injection (DI) bass and guitar rock recordings - used by Beatles engineers on Revolver and later. Prominent on distorted guitar on Revolution - used by virtually everyone nowadays
Use of editing - Used by the Beatles first to combine multiple takes of songs into one - nowadays this is done on virtually every modern pop recording using computer technology like Pro-tools
Varispeed recording (speeding up or slowing down recordings to alter the characteristics of instruments or voice) - used extensively by the Beatles first on Revolver and afterwards - now used commonly
The list could go on an on.


Edited by Floydman - August 28 2010 at 21:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thellama73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2010 at 21:46
I think they get a bit too much credit. They were undeniably one of the most groundbreaking and influential bands ever, but people act like they did it in a vacuum, with no help from their contemporaries. Pet Sounds was almost as influential as anything the Beatles did, but the Beach Boys are commonly dismissed as a one trick surf rock pony. The Velvet Underground arguably had even more influence on the music of the late seventies and eighties, and their debut came out the same year as Sgt. Pepper, showing little debt to the Beatles.
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