Sun Ra: proto-avant prog

I often meet PA members who think Sun Ra belongs here.

Just popped into PA for a bit and saw this.  I think Related could work.  The first album I bought of his was Languidity from 1978 and I would consider that PA worthy (has similarities to Mwandishi and related player albums), and I think other music of his is suitable. I quite wanted SUn Ra in JRF for that album some years ago, but know they know him well and I wouldn't expect it.



And this from 1957is pretty cool for its easy use of electric keyboard in jazz, so has early electric jazz pedigree:

Sun Ra is about the furthest thing I can imagine from prog rock.

Avant Garde music is not necessarily prog.

Man With Hat wrote: Henry Plainview wrote: Sun Ra was not rock music, while Soft Machine was jazz rock. If Sun Ra becomes proto-prog then we've just opened the doors to every free jazz or avant-garde musician of the '60s. There was a lot of avant-garde music recorded in the '60s.    Can't say I say this often...but I agree completely with henry.   Admittedly, the scope of this site is already too large, no need to open the door further.

I wouldn't consider Sun Ra as Proto Avant Prog, but I think a fair case could be made for Sun Ra as a JRF related artist.  He's certainly worked with people included in PA's JRF section (Priester for instance), and have you heard Languidity? I got that album when I was really into Mwandishi and Mwandishi-related works and a lot of cosmic jazz and I felt it in the same universe. I'm not saying that Sun Ra should be in. As for the scope of this site being too large, why do you believe so? I feel the opposite, but that's a purely subjective point of view.  I want to see this site have a new category for  innovative people such as Sun Ra (one's who composed in the second haldf of the 20th century). Stockhausen and Xenakis, though musically different., would also fall into this new progressive non-rock category.  So would jazzers such as Coltrane and Mingus. But I think jazz people such as Sun Ra and Freddie Hubbard could go in Related now, and I'm not sure what the arguments are against opening the doors more anyway. Has the site really been harmed by any additions? I think opening the doors has led to many more people using this site even if its alienated some. I'm sure some would like to see complete categories gotten rid of.  Various people were against Miles Davis and Herbie Hancock being included, yet most now happily accept the additions (at least i don't see much in the way of complaints), and many such as myself feel it was very beneficial to the site.

Equality 7-2521 wrote: Sun Ra is about the furthest thing I can imagine from prog rock. Avant Garde music is not necessarily prog.

But do you consider Languidity to be that different from music recognised as JRF at this site or just really different from Prog Rock? This site moved from being a Prog Proper site long ago, and I'm glad cause rock gets, well, pretty boring.


Edited by Logan - January 28 2011 at 14:39

Equality 7-2521 wrote: Logan wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: Sun Ra is about the furthest thing I can imagine from prog rock. Avant Garde music is not necessarily prog. But do you consider Languidity to be that different from music recognised as JRF at this site or just really different from Prog Rock? This site moved from being a Prog Proper site long ago, and I'm glad cause rock gets, well, pretty boring. Each addition is to be judged on its own merits and not compared to other bands present on the archives. Isn't that still the policy?

How do you KNOW that was the policy?

Whose policy is that? It was never mine. It can be hard to judge fit without comparing to others, and even if people are not voicing comparisons, it's a perfectly normal and useful thing to do when deeming appropriateness for PA and category fit. One can still judge an act on its own merits while comparing it other similar ones (others of the same style). By the way, have heard Sun Ra's Languidity? It's not really surprising, is it,, that I would compare it to other similar ones in a category, is it when considering it? Also, when writing bios it's commonplace to mention similar acts/ albums/  I discovered that Sun Ra album due to a  series of discoveries that started with Herbie Hancock's Crossings or Sextant.

Anyway, I hear some people say such things, but if there is an official policy, then I don't know it and would not have agreed to follow it / join a team. I think telling people that you cannot take into consideration similarities in the evaluation process would be ridiculous.


Edited by Logan - January 28 2011 at 15:47

I'm not really sure why it's that relevant to what I was trying to convey before anyway, but could someone please provide a link? I was never told this was the policy when I became a team member.

EDIT: to remove the pyramid quote -- breaks up the flow of conversation too much, and I don't really like snipped posts.


Edited by Logan - January 28 2011 at 16:05

Logan wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: Logan wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: Sun Ra is about the furthest thing I can imagine from prog rock. Avant Garde music is not necessarily prog. But do you consider Languidity to be that different from music recognised as JRF at this site or just really different from Prog Rock? This site moved from being a Prog Proper site long ago, and I'm glad cause rock gets, well, pretty boring. Each addition is to be judged on its own merits and not compared to other bands present on the archives. Isn't that still the policy? How do you KNOW that was the policy? Whose policy is that? It was never mine. It can be hard to judge fit without comparing to others, and even if people are not voicing comparisons, it's a perfectly normal and useful thing to do when deeming appropriateness for PA and category fit. One can still judge an act on its own merits while comparing it other similar ones (others of the same style). By the way, have heard Sun Ra's Languidity? It's not really surprising, is it,, that I would compare it to other similar ones in a category, is it when considering it? Also, when writing bios it's commonplace to mention similar acts/ albums/  I discovered that Sun Ra album due to a  series of discoveries that started with Herbie Hancock's Crossings or Sextant. Anyway, I hear some people say such things, but if there is an official policy, then I don't know it and would not have agreed to follow it / join a team. I think telling people that you cannot take into consideration similarities in the evaluation process would be ridiculous.

Too much to respond to for me as I have other things to do, but the problem is commonly that people draw poor comparisons.  Sorry this is poorly written.

Each one is supposed to be done on its own musical merits, but one can bolster a case by noting similarities to other albums in a category. In this case I mention that I found Sun Ra's Languidity similar to Mwandishi related works and ones with similar aural qualities ( albums by Hancock. Henderson, Maupin, Priester etc.) but I don't think I did anything wrong to compare it with those because I'm making a comparison to a Fusion style. And damn anybody who doesn't think Crossings and Sextant were essential additions. ;) I was making reference points rather than saying that because that is in and this has some similar qualities to my ear this must be right for Related.

A proposal should never be rejected because of someone making an x, y argument.  The music should speak speak for itself as much as possible (the listener will make his/ her associations).  It should be supplemental.  Actually, for PR a good x/y case was more important because arguments were important and one had to show specific similarities/ influences.

I'm not proposing Sun Ra for Related. If I'd really wanted Sun Ra in Related then I would have proposed it officially when I cared more some years ago, but I do think think there is some merit.   I know how that works and have proposed music to PR in the past.  I don't really care about additions anymore -- I just enjoy discussing them, and sometimes sharing music with people.

I don't think there was a set policy. I think I became a collb in 2006 and have been using the site since 2005 so I'm not really a noobie. The big problem with so many of the "The old if X is here why not Y" comments is that they are not sufficiently relevant / appropriate comparisons. If album x is considered prog and album x sounds the same, there's a good chance that album y will be considered prog. Lots of people pull out albums as examples that many don;'t consider prog to justify inclusion, or the mention albums that are not easily compared to warn against an inclusion.  If we let in X, then y must be let in.  No, doesn't work that way.  I think it's fine to draw comparisons and make reference points but don't care for the if X is here then Y should be too arguments commonly. And Maybe x shouldn't have been included in the first place. Still offering such reference points can help the evaluator come to a decision.

We all make comparisons.  This act sounds like music in Canterbury Scene, so we might consider it for Canterbury Scene which is closer to how I was comparing Languidity to Mwandishi albums.

As for opening this up to progressive archives, we have discussed it. I've started threads on it and there was very little interest in the idea for or against that I saw. Unless M@X came in with a "hell yeah!" in such a discussion, I wouldn't hold my breath. I'm going to start my own site anyway.

EDIT: By the way, I wondered if there was some confusion with Equality where he might have thought Languidity was a band, cause I'm not really sure that my thinking came across before. I consider the album more JRF-related certianly than Prog Related.


Edited by Logan - January 28 2011 at 16:52

Just wait for the jazz archives to launch, kay?