The CPR Scene

With a fourth volume of the CPR series coming out very soon, I wondered what people here felt about the whole subject of CPR or to give it it's name Christian Progressive Rock. Here is a link for people who want to read up on the compilation series;

Epignosis wrote: 1. Yes, but I haven't a clue why.  No one here seems to mind that Pink Floyd preaches against capitalism, no one here seems to mind that Rush preaches in favor of capitalism, no one here seems to mind that countless metal bands growl against and ridicule Christianity, no one here seems to mind that Jethro Tull preaches against religion, and no one here seems to mind that Yes preaches about...whatever it is they're preaching about.

Actually my impression has always been that proggers don't ignore these themes, but in fact they coincide with their own ideological convictions. There's a "liberal left" (I think that's what's it's called in the States) majority in the proggers, and there are some minorities like those pro-spirituality (especially those into Kraut, psych, the hippier stuff) and finally those who like Rush. ()

As an agnostic with a staunchly anti-religious streak I do get put off by overly Christian (or any other religions) lyrics. The Torman Maxt album is a good example, not only was the musc pretty bad, but it did feel like I was getting hit around the head with a bible (or at least one part of it) and I found that seriously off-putting. Having said that, I do rather like Proto-Kaw, so I guess its how its said rather than what is said thats the important part.

Easy Livin wrote: To turn it a round a bit Proginrev, do you feel that the message is more important than the music? Would you rather listen to mediocre CPR than a well recorded album without a message? Do you think the right message always makes the album good, or is there bad CPR? Are there some bands or artists who simply jump on the CPR bandwagon? Is prog the right type of music for an overt message? Are there styles of prog music which would be unsuitable for CPR?

I have to say that the music is more important, but I also think lyrics have their place. I listen to music of all types from Opeth to Muse to Radiohead to Genesis to Dream Theatre etc etc. I just love music of a more progressive nature. I just happen to be a Christian. I hate mediocre music Christian or not, and there is alot of Christian crap. Some of the tracks on the CPR comps I cringe at because it is obvious the message has been put before the music. There are some great albums without a message that in my opinion can be more uplifting, like Sigur Ros or Yes. There is bad CPR. The problem is not bandwagon jumping but discerning between getting famous people to sign on just because they are famous. I find an overt message sometimes too much myself. I think Neal Morse communicated more to more people when he was in Spock's Beard than now. Like people watch the Chronicles of Narnia and Lord of the Rings but never read Christian fiction per se. I think all styles of music are great for all. I have heard some Christian black metal and Goth :) . Now that makes me smile.

A refreshingly candid view Proginrev

toroddfuglesteg wrote: That Christian Rock scene is as cynical and dishonest........ well, more dishonest and cynical than the secular music scene. That is my own experience from this scene and I released a Christian Rock album back in 1994. Let me put it this way; the scene and my experiences there made me more anti-Christian than Christian.   The scene is respectable and angelic on the surface....... ........ but the reality is very different. The bands and the parents of these angelic children following the scene tells the kids to buy the Christian albums because the lyrics are Christian. So don't buy any Epignosis album because that is "secular" and you may burn in hell because of it. Buy albums from [insert generic CPR album/artist here]. Is that honesty ? But that was how the scene worked back in 1994 and that was how the band I released the album with sold their album. And so did their distributor. And it was a very effective way of selling albums. Give the buyers the choice between heaven and hell. No matter the quality; the Christian buyer will always choose heaven. That is how this scene made money then and I doubt the scene has changed. As Jesus once did; purify and clean out the temple and keep the businesses outside the temple. That is why I have problems with the morals & the ethics of the Christian Rock scene. On the other hand;  if the quality is good from this scene, I am more than happy to flash my credit card on albums from that scene. But that's on quality and quality alone. Give me some exciting music I can love.   I would also be more than happy to do an interview and profile feature with the owner of CPR for ProgArchives. Please PM me with your email address and I will send you some questions.  Edit: Email sent to your email address.

  Hope you realise I am not the owner of CPR. I am just a punter like you. You didn't e-mail me anyway!!! Can understand what you have written here and your feelings. Sorry you have been hurt so much. I was a church minister and took a load of crap there too. People are people unfortunately. Hope you get to speak to the owner, would like to hear what he has to say. I went through the record burning rubbish due to the so called evils of rock music. Now I have bought them all back. Great rock is great rock.

Sorry, proginrev. I thought you were CPR.    But a big, big thank you for bringing them to my attention. I have actually interviewed a lot of the bands featured there. See the Index page in Interviews for the interviews. 

I have emailed CPR, they have replied and they have received my questions. I will bring the interview when I receive their answers. Some of the questions is based on the questions you have asked yourself.    

Let me answer your questions:

1. As a child of the European culture and society, I do not like to be preached at. In my view; God is in our homes and in the churches. Not anywhere else. I know Neal Morse and your American culture state that God is everywhere. Hence; his preaching/lyrics in the albums does not sit well in the European culture. So my answer is yes.  

2. Difficult to answer on a short notice. But yes, I believe people respect more good role models than good sermons.

3. The origins of progressive rock and most of progressive rock comes from Christian music and imagery. Handel, cathedrals, the Bible, the imagery...... they are everywhere in progressive music. "Christian progressive rock" is like the statement "the water is wet". It is like buttering up a piece of bacon. But as a scene where Christian musicians can meet up on the net or in real life, drink liters of tea and have a good time; the Christian progressive rock scene is like a group of chess players meeting up to share their passion. I respect that.  

I hope that has answered your questions.

Yes, the likes of Joseph Aranza and his likes did a lot of damage to a lot of people. Most of these preachers though is serving time for various crimes. Some of them hideous. My experiences was of a dishonest, cheating, cynical scene who had no place in the temple. But I hope it has changed to the better. 

   

Edited by toroddfuglesteg - May 07 2011 at 14:42

 

Nathaniel607 wrote:   In fact, in kind of brings to light one of the reasons I really don't like religion - they seem to want to split things in "religious" and "non-religious" as opposed to just "good/nice" and "bad/evil".

I totally agree with what you write here and that has been my main reason for my disagreement with this scene and the religiou christianity despite of my own christian beliefs. I hope that shone through in the interview too. It is the reason why I have no contacts with my many relatives, bar my parents. My relatives has divided the world into "christian" and "non-christians" and does not accept crossovers.  

Personally, I want one scene without any barriers between "us" and "them". But I respect the fact that others, like CPR, disagrees with me. That does not means I am not talking to those who has defined themselves as "them", but who I regard as "us" because I do not accept this barrier.     

Edited by toroddfuglesteg - May 16 2011 at 14:00

toroddfuglesteg wrote:   That Christian Rock scene is as cynical and dishonest........ well, more dishonest and cynical than the secular music scene. That is my own experience from this scene and I released a Christian Rock album back in 1994. Let me put it this way; the scene and my experiences there made me more anti-Christian than Christian.   The scene is respectable and angelic on the surface....... ........ but the reality is very different. The bands and the parents of these angelic children following the scene tells the kids to buy the Christian albums because the lyrics are Christian. So don't buy any Epignosis album because that is "secular" and you may burn in hell because of it. Buy albums from [insert generic CPR album/artist here]. Is that honesty ? But that was how the scene worked back in 1994 and that was how the band I released the album with sold their album. And so did their distributor. And it was a very effective way of selling albums. Give the buyers the choice between heaven and hell. No matter the quality; the Christian buyer will always choose heaven. That is how this scene made money then and I doubt the scene has changed. As Jesus once did; purify and clean out the temple and keep the businesses outside the temple. That is why I have problems with the morals & the ethics of the Christian Rock scene. On the other hand;  if the quality is good from this scene, I am more than happy to flash my credit card on albums from that scene. But that's on quality and quality alone. Give me some exciting music I can love.   I would also be more than happy to do an interview and profile feature with the owner of CPR for ProgArchives. Please PM me with your email address and I will send you some questions.  Edit: Email sent to your email address.

Imagine being a concsiencious parent of a teenage offspring, they like to listen to this weird music that you don't understand, and you don't know what sorts of "messages" the lyrics may be promoting. You are vaguely aware that what media you consume must influence your thinking, after all advertisers wouldn't spend all that money otherwise, and you can see the influence of other media on society around you. You know the name of the genre that your beloved offspring is listening to is "Prog Rock" and then you hear of "Christian Prog Rock". Hurrah, your problems are solved, because you can trust this music, it's message will be in line with your own thinking, and yet said offspring will surely embrace the music because it is the style they like. Of course you buy it and encourage said offspring to engage with it.

It's totally understandable.

Maybe, just maybe, at a time in their life when they are trying to sort out what their own values and beliefs are, it's quite helpful for the offspring to realise that not everybody thinks the same, and to have other influences as well, including ones that the parent doesn't agree with. I could be wrong though, I am not an expert.

Epignosis wrote: 1. Yes, but I haven't a clue why.  No one here seems to mind that Pink Floyd preaches against capitalism, no one here seems to mind that Rush preaches in favor of capitalism, no one here seems to mind that countless metal bands growl against and ridicule Christianity, no one here seems to mind that Jethro Tull preaches against religion, and no one here seems to mind that Yes preaches about...whatever it is they're preaching about. So I find it rather odd that anyone would have a problem with lyrics "preaching" (silly word in this context, really) Christianity.  Mostly all I've heard anyway is Christian prog rockers praising God, expounding upon the Bible, and singing about their own experiences, not threatening people with the Gospel.  What's wrong with lyrics reflecting one's personal journey, whatever that is? 2. Yes, but not because of the lyrics. In the case of Kansas, Livgren's music has always been religious/spiritual.  From his Hindu mysticism, his pseudo-Christian Urantia ideas, to Christianity proper- it's always been his thing.  Yes, his solo work has found a limited market, but so has everybody else who released solo material from Kansas.  Steve Walsh's music is very dark and disturbing, but I've never seen one of his records in any music store.  Dave Hope bassically (pun intended) retired from music to become a minister.  Steinhardt-Moon is practically unheard of.  Even Native Window (Kansas minus Walsh) wasn't a big deal.  I have seen Proto-Kaw in typical music stores, however. 3. No.  I've always said there's no such thing as Christian music.  The notes and instruments of a composition do not communicate any specific message- only the lyrics do that.  Therefore I find it odd that a band would be labeled a "Christian band" when Yes is not classified as a "Quasi-Hindu-Earth-Mother-Universalism" band.  From my experience, nobody talks about the "Atheist music scene" or the "Muslim music scene" or the "Buddhist music scene." Bands should be labeled by their music, not by their lyrical content.  To find glitzy pop music next to R&B next to thrash metal next to Latino music next to bluegrass next to classic hymns just because the lyrics are similar is not helpful at all. Although "Christian Progressive Rock" is pretty darn specific!

I basically agree with all of this, and I'm not a Christian.

However, my basic problem with a lot of this Christian prog, particularly Morse, is that the subject matter is extremely limited.  I mean, half a dozen albums with very similar lyrics, concepts and lyrical themes just gets boring to me.  I've noticed that Glass Hammer is able to write about a wide variety of subjects, despite the fact that they are devout Christians and seem to take their religious beliefs very seriously.  They don't feel confined to writing about JUST Christian themes.  Why does Morse seem incapable of this?  For that matter, even Proto Kaw seems to have a broader lyrical pallet.

Anyway, it's not the message or the "preaching" that bothers me, but the repetition and "sameness" of the lyrics.  Honestly, if a band like Metallica can come up with good lyrics from the bible (Creeping Death), why can't someone like Morse, who's obviously far more talented?