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Joined: March 04 2008
Location: Retirement Home
Status: Offline
Points: 3658
Topic: BURNIN' RED IVANHOE Posted: July 16 2011 at 07:53
Burnin' Red Ivanhoe was formed back in 1967, and that makes them one of the first scandinavian prog bands. Their style was quite original from the start, blending jazz-rock with R&B, blues, psychedelia etc.. their debut from 1969 (double album) "M 144" sounds somewhat like THE WHO with jazz influences. Most of Burnin' Red Ivanhoe's albums have that certain scandinavian touch to it, similar to early 70's prog groups such as WIGWAM, CULPEPER'S ORCHARD and TASAVALLAN PRESIDENTTI. In 1971, the band released the album "WWW", which is probably a good place to start (for proggers), as it contains some of their most progressive and interesting work.
I got in touch with Karsten Vogel and this is their story.
When did you take up music and who were
your musical inspirations? How was the music scene in your area when
you started? When and how did you join Burnin Red Ivanhoe ?
After listening to names like Paul
Desmond and especially Charlie Parker since I was 12 I bought my
first Saxophone shortly after celebrating my 14. birthday. It was in
a horrible condition so I had to have another one a few months later.
When Eric Dolphy and John Coltrane arrived on the scene they too were
main influences. And so was Albert Ayler a few years after that
again. At the same time I began listening to rock groups such as The
Who, The Rolling Stones and The Beatles. I had an idea of connecting
my two main musical influences avant-garde jazz and progressive rock
into one expression and with this purpose began writing songs
together with poet Niels Erik Wille, with whom I had been doing some
extreme shows at different places in Copenhagen.
Since I at that time knew only jazz
musicians and had only been playing jazz at jazz clubs and
underground art ventures, I had to start all over again with new
musicians to let this musical dream come true. So I began getting a
band together in 1966 called M/S Mitte - The Burning Red Ivanhoes,
shortly after just Burnin Red Ivanhoe. So I created this band to
realize my music and make it happen in realtime.
(As you can see, I’m the only
original member of this group, since it was created by me .)
We had our first gig (as a quartet) in
May 1967.
It was a very turbulent period of time,
and for different reasons I had to change the line-up several times
until at least in the springtime of 1970 we had the “classical”
Burnin with Ole Fick, Kim Menzer, Jess Staehr, Bo Thrige Andersen and
me.
Do you know the origins of
and/or why the original band members chose Burnin Red Ivanhoe as
their band name ?
When I was working together with Niels
Erik Wille, the lyrics were in Danish language. No one had done
progressive rock music with Danish lyrics before. As a result of
weird thinking I gave all the Danish song English titles (no rational
reason for that!) and one song I translated to “Burnin Red
Ivanhoe”. At the same time I had a very unusual band name.
This is an archive
based interview also intended for the fans you get well after both
you and I have passed away so let's go straight to your albums.
Please give us your long or brief views on your albums,
starting with.......
M144 from 1969
As said before I had written quite a
lot of songs and instrumental pieces for BRI over the last four
years. We had played perhaps a 100 gigs since the first one in 1967,
but also there had been changes in personal on all instruments
several times. When we began the recordings (in the day time in a
cinema) in fact only the drummer Bo and I had been playing with the
band for a longer time. So I had four bass players to work with me,
two guitar players, three vocalists and some guest musicians such as
John Tchicai and Hugh Steinmetz from my avant-garde period. It was
absolutely turbulent and I had to have Franz Beckerlee (also at that
time a avant-garde jazz man - later on famed Gasolin guitar player)
to help me keeping up the good spirit.
The tape recorder was a home build
4-track machine, not going very precisely and not erasing well. In
fact much of what we did in this studio was pioneer work according to
Danish standard at the time.
Today this double album has a kind of
legendary status in Danish rock history. I find it myself much
innovating with some great moments but also with obvious weak parts,
and I’m definitely not satisfied with my own playing on the
Saxophone. I had nearly no time to rehearse at that time and my
instrument was in a horrible condition too.
After all - well: I’m a little proud
of having made this album.
Burnin' Red Ivanhoe from
1970
In the springtime of 1970 we got the
opportunity to come to UK and consequently had Ole Fick (he was been
singing and playing on M144 as studio musician) as a lead singer.
Richard Williams of Melody Maker and John Peel of BBC had done a lot
for us over there. Also John Peel (under the name Eddie Lee Beppeaux)
released the album and together with bass player Tony Reeves produced
it.
This is classic Burnin, good vocals,
wild Saxophones, some blues feeling and some musical writing that
later that year had Frank Zappa to contact me for a friendly talk.
The music is unique and the album got
us into the international progressive rock scene.
W.W.W. from 1971
In the years since the release of M144
Burnin had played an awful lot of jobs. I began to lean more against
the instrumental side of the band’s music, but the audience
demanded the old hits. I wrote a kind of a suite in four pieces, only
one with vocals. Heard today it might be a little too slow in
progression but it sure has great moments. The song (a real song I
will call it) “All about all” is among my favourite Burnin
recordings.
The title “W.W.W.” (we are writing
1971!) is puzzling. I gave it that title after the initial letters of
the first names of sir Ivanhoe combined with the first name of the
main character in a Norwegian book by writer Johan Borgen
“Lillelord”. They both were persons with personalities scattered
minds (as I felt I had myself).
This album never was very popular in
Denmark, but I think it gave us a good reputation in other countries.
Too I find the cover perhaps the best
we ever did.
6 Elefantskovcikadeviser from 1971
After having played
some concerts together with the perhaps
most popular Danish folk singer ever we decided to do an album
together. Though not the most Burnin-ish album it became one
of the most popular, not least because of Povl Dissings strong
vocals. The avant-garde side of the band is hardly heard, the tempo
is in general slow compared to Burnin standard, but the overall
atmosphere is fine.
Right On from 1974
After splitting up in April 1972 due to
a general feeling of being tired Burnin had some gigs less than a
year after again. This happened alongside with my work with Secret
Oyster. Kenneth Knudsen from that band joined Burnin as a keyboard
player and Kim Menzer left. The music became more aggressive (which I
liked) as heard on this album. “August Suicidal” I find is one of
the top-5 Burnin recordings, written to our great drummer who had
serious problems with his lifestyle.
Shorts from 1980
This album is definitely not my
favourite. I also had that feeling when recording. There never was a
common feeling of going deeply into the music when we did it and the
choice of producer was quite unhappy. Peter Thorup was great in many
musical fields but not connected to the music that Burnin could
produce when we were at our best.
Lack Of Light from 1998
We had to produce this album ourselves
also having the expenses by doing it.
There are some fine tracks here (Lack
of Light, Strindbergs Car a.o.) but also the album suffers from being
the expression from different minds. Since Ole Fick had trouble
singing at that time we had female singer Janne Eilskov with the band
both on gigs and in the studio. She is a strong lead, but had no
understanding of how to relax.
After all we got our invested money
back!
and the live album Miley
Smile/Stage Recall from 1972
After splitting up we did a two weeks
tour in Norway. It was a very happy tour, since we felt released
after the decision of not going on with the band.
Just after the tour we went into the
studio and in three hours played live songs that we were very
familiar with at that point. What you hear is a very strong playing
band. Lots of energy. And one of my best songs “I
want the rest of my life surrounded with money” (- in fact the
reason why I felt it important to do this session since it was
unrecorded until then).
How was your
creative processes from coming up with an idea to finally record it
as a song or a piece of music?
There was different ways
to come from idea to recorded or live played music. Often it was the
character of the music that decided how things would happen.
In many cases I had a
melody with changes, tempo and main expression as part of the
composition. I then asked for lyrics, and sometimes also got some.
With Niels Erik Wille I then began working with his words to make it
fit to the song and to what the band would feel for. In some cases
his words came before my music. But still we often made some changes
before being satisfied. With other writers I seldom made changes.
Mainly because I did not have a regular working situation with them.
And also in many cases I never got the words that fitted to the song
and consequently wrote some words myself. I never felt like a poet,
but in a couple of cases they came out all right.
Well after that I
played the song or the musical piece for the rest of the band, often
giving a story, a description of a situation or a landscape or
whatever to give an idea of what I had in mind. Also because the
ability to read music was not what Burnin was known for. But every
piece of music, that I have written, is
written down in one way or another.
Many pieces I wrote with
the particular musicians in the band in mind. Like: This piece will
have to feature Kim’s harmonica, that piece will highlight the drum
and bass teamwork.
Sometimes - or in fact
quite often - the music did not work, so any further work with it was
cancelled. I should say that more than half of what I wrote for the
band never ended up in the book.
The most important
progression for the music was when it was played live on stage.
Burnin was more a live than a studio band.
For those of us
unknown with your music; how would you
describe you music and which bands would you compare yourself
with ?
My stylistic
inspirations in the rock field were bands like The Free Spirits, The
Who, Earth Opera, a little Frank Zappa, a little Terry Riley. But the
combination of avant-garde jazz and progressive rock was unheard at
the time. Burnin is more than most bands a fusion group, and that is
part of the unique sound. You will find many styles represented:
swing, avant-garde, pop, blues, contemporary European music, rock,
folk. In most cases this mix worked ok and is defining the band as
such. In the very creative period from mid 60th
to mid 70th
it was fine with the audience with this stylistic mix. In the years
after that when the target group thinking began to take over the
music business it wasn’t that easy to work that way.
How was your sales
figures and popularity in Denmark and did you venture out into the
bigger markets like UK, USA and the European
markets too in the 1970s?
According to Danish
standard at that time we had great sales figures. In
fact I don’t know how many copies were sold, since we nearly never
had any statement and consequently never got the money, we should
have had. I will guess M144 including cd’s have sales figures
between 20.000 and 30.000. “6 elefantskovcikadeviser” could be
the same. Too these albums are part of a bargain 10-album boxset with
music from this period. I don’t know the sales figures, but they
are good (30.000?) and not included in what I suggest here.
“BRI” and
“W.W.W.” around 15.000 - 20.000 worlwide. The other albums have
small figures.
We played four tours and
some big gigs in UK, several concerts in Germany, one - two tours
every year in Norway (in Bergen only The Beatles were bigger), and
also played quite a lot in Sweden and Finland. In UK and Germany we
were big names playing concerts with Uriah Heep, Black Sabbath,
Incredible Stringband, Jimi Hendrix (well that was in Sweden), and
was among famed BBC DJ John Peels favourite bands in the world. He
produced us and released two of the albums on his own label.
Burnin Red Ivanhoe has
split up. When and why did you split up ?
After five years of really
hard work and still not much money we were tired. Also I wished to go
more in the direction of instrumental, more jazz oriented music. The
audience wanted the well known songs. So during a rehearsal I had to
say stop, and that was it.
Then I founded Secret
Oyster. I already had the idea to that band during the last months
with Burnin Red Ivanhoe.
But in the next eight
years Burnin in with different line-ups were on tour again.
After all that band is
something special.
In the 80th
there was no Burnin. But again in 1991 we got together again (new
bass player, new drummer), and in fact we have been playing ever
since. Some years not more than ten gigs. Others around 30.
Do you still have any
contacts with the other Burnin Red Ivanhoe band members ?
So - yes, we are often
together, this year will bring us on tour again and hopefully a new
cd with all new songs will be released in September.
Finally, how is the availability of the
Burnin Red Ivanhoe albums and is there any plans to do anything more
under the Burnin Red Ivanhoe name ?
It is hard to get the
vinyl albums, they are quite expensive when they are in a second hand
store. Most of the cd’s are sold out, but the 10-album boxset with
music from the period including “m144” and “6 elefants…” is
a big success and available.
To wrap up this interview, is there
anything you want to add to this interview ?
I’m glad you asked me to
answer these questions and feel honoured by your attention.
I love playing music and
still my fingers are ok
Uncertainty lengthens the
distance!
Thank you to Karsten Vogel for this interview
Their PA profile is here and their homepage is here
AAAAARRRRGGGHHHH I am going to miss their show in Christiania today!!!!!!!!!
One of my all time faves from Denmark! Karsten Vogel is a prodigy on the sax, and Kim Menzer is just out this world on a number of weird instruments. The guy is over 70, but he can blow the didgeridoo like a reverse vacuum cleaner on epo. Ole Fick is probably one of the most emotional guitarists here, and the way he plays now gives me goosebumps. I´ve seen them a number of times live, and never once caught a bad performance. Furthermore, I spoke to Karsten some 2 years back after a concert, that took place just outside Copenhagen, in a little wooden amphietheater/ Indian theater shed thing. We spoke for an hour about all sorts of things; when they toured in Germany in the 70s, Cobham, Charlie Parker and everything in between. A night I´ll never forget - and I hope he didn´t mind too much. As a matter of fact, I think he enjoyed talking to a young guy, who was totally in love with the music of that era.
He also popped by at one of friend´s funeral. Combined with being one of the worst experiences of my life (my friend committed suicide), it was also one of the most spiritual things I´ve ever witnessed and felt. After a sort of ceremony, with pictures of the deceased displayed on a giant screen - along with some of his favorite music played in the back - we´d all go up to the altar(not really an altar - it was a non religious thing) and light candles. I felt like my soul had been ripped out of me - like a black hole, and then suddenly Karsten steps in and starts playing on the sax - unrehearsed and just following the mood or maybe something quite different. I have no words to describe this scenario, but it made me cry tears of joy, and it was like a giant bird had flapped its wings and took off - right there and then.
Thanks for that interview Torodd, that made my day
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
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