What ever happened to E.L.P.?

Floydoid wrote: AFlowerKingCrimson wrote: I see that Carl is touring again this year as ELP. Interesting. I might go since I've never seen ELP before. ;) As ELP? Shouldn't that be as P?

Hi,

If I knew that he was using film to show what he did with the drums, and (basically) give us a drum clinic that most hitters do not have or will ever learn, other than timing ... then it will be worth seeing ... you can't see the others, this might be a bit weird, but hopefully interesting ... he was one of the few drummers that worked on helping the music come alive ... instead of the cheap and low level abilities in most bands these days!

Hopefully it will be nice and worth it, is all I can hope for ... I never got a chance to see ELP, and I might enjoy saying hello and at least say a fond thank yo ufor the inspiration that he and his mates gave me and others!

richardh wrote: Hrychu wrote: The whole "prog got boring by 1974" is an anglo-commonwealth-centric myth that's repeated by people that dismiss the more underground 2nd wave prog bands, mostly from outside the 1st Western World. It comes down to what can genuinely be called 'prog'. We've been down that road on PA many times. I'm talking about what was genuinely regarded as 'progressive rock' back in the day (ie the 'first wave') not talking about purely innovative music which of course carried on and is still happening all over the world. IMHO

Hi,

Not sure that this sounds right, or might mean something else ... the "original" progressive music was innovative, and different, at least as far as the methodology and format designs of most pop music ... I still believe the idea was to get past the pop music formats, and in essence, that meant that anything new had to be innovative, since I'm not sure you can have 674 variations upon a theme on the same 12 notes in a couple of scales, and not add something else to it all.

In the end, let's face it ... most "progressive" and "progrock" and innovative materials that we list here, still are not exactly beyond what classical music has shown specially in the 20th century when a lot of music busted out the designs and the ideas of what music was ... thus, thinking that innovative and special new materials from all over the world, was what made it innovative, when it really wasn't, even if there was some inspiration taken from it. Almost ALL new music, over the centuries, was completely different than what the norm was and while it might not have taken to the ears all around, eventually it did so.

But I think that we are missing the point of all this ... the one thing that rock and jazz music brought to the plate in the 20th century was what I consider "attitude", which was ignored by classical music for hundreds of years, since it was not exactly easy to score something that had been improvised, and the player had no idea what he did here or there, and there didn't exist a recording device available which would help, and THERE WASN'T until nearly 100 years ago! That, on its own, dismantles the idea of "innovative" because we can not evaluate what it was what was played! And could not be scored!!!

Miles Davis, for example, was not exactly appreciated by the classical music folks, however, in due time, his forays into somewhere else, got some results, and at that point I think it went beyond jazz, in terms of a definition, something that we don't like to do ... we think that everything has to fit in a little box with the same 4 corners and so forth!

But the main issue, with something like Miles Davis, is ... where is it going to lead us all? And how are we going to take it ... and all of a sudden we think that John McLaughlin was crazy when he just flew away, but we love it when Steve Howe did it, or Chris Squire did it for 60 seconds incredibly well, and then, we have an issue ... our ideas of all this, are not comprehensive and strong, or our ideas would make a little bit better sense, specially with the history of the music in mind, which rock fans intentionally ignore because it trashes their likes left and right and every which way!

In the end, I think that we're trying hard to CLOSE DOWN the idea that new music can come along and create something new ... why? Easy! ... We have no terminology or ideas how to interpret it, but one thing is always true ... when yo look at it all within a historical context in music, most of it makes sense, except the "fan-dom" ... which will likely still fight for pieces of the pig! Music? So what? ...


Edited by moshkito - April 21 2025 at 09:02

It remains to be seen what criteria they use, not only the talent of the musicians and their albums, but also their longevity in the music scene, their ability to reinvent themselves, or whether their music is timeless or anchored in its time. I agree that ELP seems to be below Jethro Tull, Yes, Genesis, Van der Graaf Generator, or King Crimson, although it's a matter of taste. However, when they emerged, they were a success from their first album, attracting the attention of Jimi Hendrix himself and Miles Davis after their performance on the Isle of Wight. And their first five albums, from the self-titled album to Brain Salad Surgery, boast a superlative level of innovation. The classical adaptations to rock, which he had already patented with The Nice, were the hallmark of Keith Emerson, a pianist with a sensitivity for playing everything from jazz to classical to rock 'n' roll. Carl Palmer had already proven his worth with Atomic Rooster, but later, he grew even more capable of playing melodies on his drums. And Greg Lake, personally, for me, had one of the best and most versatile voices, along with Ian Anderson's, in the early years. While they seemed to lose their way after 1973, at a younger age than some of their fellow bandmates, with the aforementioned merits, I believe they deserve a place that honors their achievements.

Hrychu wrote: AFlowerKingCrimson wrote: I see that Carl is touring again this year as ELP. Interesting. I might go since I've never seen ELP before. ;) ELP? More like Carl and the Holograms. xd

No doubt but it's being billed as an evening with Emerson, Lake & Palmer or something like that.

presdoug wrote: verslibre wrote: richardh wrote: ^ on that basis most prog was getting boring by 1974. Many bands that had started about 1969/70 were struggling to progress or come up with new ideas. Prog was splitting into the jazz rock stuff which never had a wide audience. ELP were one of the most recognisable and well known prog bands of the time and still crop up in quiz shows even today (I know because I watch a lot with my Mum!). Fanfare For The Commmon Man made no2 in the UK in 1977 and gave them a brief new lease of life. That along with Keith Emerson's surprise hit Honky Tonk Train Blues and Lake's Xmas song showed the guys were capable of exploring new directions. Works was just a confusing time for the band but honestly most prog bands by 1978 were struggling because they didn't know what else to do. Once you've climbed the hill you can only come down. Yeah, I can't get behind the "prog got boring by 1974" view. I'm sure dr_prog is taking the piss. Tangerine Dream suddenly got huge in '74! Then Goblin went from strength to strength with Profondo Rosso and Suspiria. Jean-Michel Jarre had a pair of hit albums. Vangelis. Tomita. Even Kraftwerk. And so on. And I love the fusion stuff: Weather Report, Return to Forever, Brand X, Herbie Hancock, Jan Hammer's myriad collaborations...! And European bands like Triumvirat and Libra were also making their mark in America in 1974 and 1975, respectively...and Nektar and PFM were breaking new ground at that time, as well....

Libra's 1977 soundtrack to Schock certainly benefitted from the Goblin connection: drummer Walter Martino was a founding member and participated in the realization of Profondo Rosso in 1975.

The whole "prog got boring by 1974" is an anglo-commonwealth-centric myth that's repeated by people that dismiss the more underground 2nd wave prog bands, mostly from outside the 1st Western World.

richardh wrote: ^ on that basis most prog was getting boring by 1974. Many bands that had started about 1969/70 were struggling to progress or come up with new ideas. Prog was splitting into the jazz rock stuff which never had a wide audience. ELP were one of the most recognisable and well known prog bands of the time and still crop up in quiz shows even today (I know because I watch a lot with my Mum!). Fanfare For The Commmon Man made no2 in the UK in 1977 and gave them a brief new lease of life. That along with Keith Emerson's surprise hit Honky Tonk Train Blues and Lake's Xmas song showed the guys were capable of exploring new directions. Works was just a confusing time for the band but honestly most prog bands by 1978 were struggling because they didn't know what else to do. Once you've climbed the hill you can only come down.

Yeah, I can't get behind the "prog got boring by 1974" view. I'm sure dr_prog is taking the piss. Tangerine Dream suddenly got huge in '74! Then Goblin went from strength to strength with Profondo Rosso and Suspiria. Jean-Michel Jarre had a pair of hit albums. Vangelis. Tomita. Even Kraftwerk. And so on. And I love the fusion stuff: Weather Report, Return to Forever, Brand X, Herbie Hancock, Jan Hammer's myriad collaborations...!

richardh wrote: ... I seem to be alone in thinking that Emerson continued doing exactly what he wanted which was to explore orchestral music. I find it sad that no one cares about his soundtrack music for the films Inferno, Nighthawks and Best Revenge. Coming out of school and going to college I was still listening to him and really there just nothing else I cared about. ...

Hi,

I also enjoy the orchestral material he did and always thought that "my generation" had the talent to be one of the greats, however, the whole thing had been, by that time, inundated by rock folks that did not care about the music itself, except the hits they liked ... and it was very bad ... I had the same reaction when I walked out of the YES concert in 1972, when everyone stood up for the encore ... of the well known hits!!! There was no such appreciation for TFTO ... and I cried on the way out, because I knew good example right there, that the "music" was no longer important, and the money would stay with the hits. And a buffoon started his curry idiocy to help sell his solo albums!

That hurt bands like ELP a lot. And it's a good thing that KC did not do exactly, some concept albums with ideas, or they would have been ripped apart even more than they were.

The wonderful thing, though, is that Keith Emerson will be remembered for a long time and appreciated for his work ... and most of those "reviewers and idiots"? No one remembers them or even knows who they were or are. Though I tend to think that on a progressive forum, too many folks here don't care for the music itself ... and that hurts ... I often suggest those folks never cared what "progressive music" and its parent "art rock" was really all about ... because for them it wasn't a hit of their choice!

I got into ELP for their classical music work, which Keith Emerson had already been doing with The Nice. But the times were changing and the corporate structures were getting stronger, and finally around 1980, took all the independent radio stations off the air, and gave them "classic rock" which they still play ... and that means only 2, maybe 3, songs by ELP will ever be heard and those folks, mostly have never even heard the albums ... most of us, even here, are better tuned to music than just the same hits on a different rotation every day of the week, and repeated next week!

Edited by moshkito - April 20 2025 at 10:19

moshkito wrote: Floydoid wrote: ... As for ELP's later albums... well let me just say IMO they probably should have called it a day after Works 1. Hi, A tough area to call ... specially as they were a part of a system that was based on hits and making some money for the record company involved ... which means that any musician thinking they can get a free ride and only do what they feel like doing ... might as well retire now, and stop the illusion! As a writer, I have never wavered from my inner feeling, and I suppose that I could say that I have bucked the "system" more than once, which might have given me a bit more materially, but in the end, it would hurt me inside ... I live for my inner vision, in dreams or otherwise, and write from them a lot ... and I can not leave that behind ... I don't change skins during different seasons, to be able to do that and leaving the comforts they won behind would likely be a serious issue for a discussion, that they needed to have, but might have been one of those moments when things went in agreement in the other way that we as fans have not enjoyed or appreciated ... but in the end, who the fudge am I to be telling a Picasso, or Stravinsky, what to do with their life? It's a ridiculous notion, and us trying to think for Emerson, Lake or Palmer, is a bit on the mean side. I can see Palmer laughing these days, and look at his past with some appreciation for the beautiful work he did that 9 out of 0 drummers would not and instead just play the simplest and highschool'est of bits in drumming, like you have these days ... no talent ... just timing, the first thing you learn in school!

I seem to be alone in thinking that Emerson continued doing exactly what he wanted which was to explore orchestral music. I find it sad that no one cares about his soundtrack music for the films Inferno, Nighthawks and Best Revenge. Coming out of school and going to college I was still listening to him and really there just nothing else I cared about. Furthermore Emerson was still keen to bring back progressive ideas with 1986's Emerson, Lake and Powell which although hit and miss was still way more interesting than almost anything else coming out in mainstream rock music at the time. Palmer is another case though. He was far too young to give up being only 27 when the music press was rounding on ELP in 1977. He had to change his style and stance to survive and did that very sucessfully with the band Asia. I respect the guy a lot but even you have to admit his drumming on things like Black Moon and later Asia albums is pretty dreadfully dull. Sadly Carl stopped being relevant as drummer decades ago although I love his lust for life and displaying his visual drumming art which he does with great enthusiasm. He's also a 'tea totaller' like youself. Something in that it would seem ( although I could never dream of giving up beer, not happening ever!!)

Floydoid wrote: ... As for ELP's later albums... well let me just say IMO they probably should have called it a day after Works 1.

Hi,

A tough area to call ... specially as they were a part of a system that was based on hits and making some money for the record company involved ... which means that any musician thinking they can get a free ride and only do what they feel like doing ... might as well retire now, and stop the illusion!

As a writer, I have never wavered from my inner feeling, and I suppose that I could say that I have bucked the "system" more than once, which might have given me a bit more materially, but in the end, it would hurt me inside ... I live for my inner vision, in dreams or otherwise, and write from them a lot ... and I can not leave that behind ... I don't change skins during different seasons, to be able to do that and leaving the comforts they won behind would likely be a serious issue for a discussion, that they needed to have, but might have been one of those moments when things went in agreement in the other way that we as fans have not enjoyed or appreciated ... but in the end, who the fudge am I to be telling a Picasso, or Stravinsky, what to do with their life? It's a ridiculous notion, and us trying to think for Emerson, Lake or Palmer, is a bit on the mean side. I can see Palmer laughing these days, and look at his past with some appreciation for the beautiful work he did that 9 out of 0 drummers would not and instead just play the simplest and highschool'est of bits in drumming, like you have these days ... no talent ... just timing, the first thing you learn in school!