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jammun 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3449
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 Posted: March 10 2009 at 20:03 |
Hang on everyone, let me find my walker 
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: March 10 2009 at 20:21 |
I may be stealing your walker before the day comes when scantily scad women are parading around the site wanting to discuss Britany's latest and newly remixed Grt's Hits colection 
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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jammun
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3449
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Posted: March 10 2009 at 20:34 |
I must admit I did not envision this particular subject and subsequent discussion to somehow come to include Britney
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 10 2009 at 20:39 |
I think it's the Prog equivalent of Godwin's Law.
"As a Prog debate grows longer, the probability of a Britney reference approaches 1"
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What?
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jammun
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3449
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Posted: March 10 2009 at 21:04 |
But Britney aside, back to my initial musing regarding a handful of Yardbirds songs, and then I'll be done with it.
For Your Love: early use of harpsichord in a rock song. Clapton supposedly quits just because of that. Changes of rhythm throughout the song.
Shapes of Things: adventurous rock song, early use of distortion. Jeff Beck decides he likes this song so much, he re-records it for his first album, without noticable improvement. (But J. Beck enjoys his little niche here on the site).
Train Kept A-Rollin'/I'm A Man: my argument is starting to show some serious signs of weakness.
Still I'm Sad: background vocals apparently based on Gregorian chants, definitely proto.
Happenings Ten Years Time Ago: rhythmically challenging for a rock song of the time, and a beautifully psychedelic solo break (Page & Beck).
Little Games: early use of what I assume is bowed guitar by Page, which he would later employ with LZ (who also enjoy a little niche here on the site).
White Summer: acoustic companion piece to LZ's Black Mountain Side.
Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Sailor: prototypical LZ. Virtually same guitar style as that found on Houses of the Holy.
Just sayin'.
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jammun
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3449
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Posted: March 10 2009 at 21:07 |
 Dean wrote:
I think it's the Prog equivalent of Godwin's Law.
"As a Prog debate grows longer, the probability of a Britney reference approaches 1" |
and in this case, actually reaches it.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 10 2009 at 21:18 |
jammun wrote:
But Britney aside, back to my initial musing regarding a handful of Yardbirds songs, and then I'll be done with it.
For Your Love: early use of harpsichord in a rock song. Clapton supposedly quits just because of that. Changes of rhythm throughout the song.
Shapes of Things: adventurous rock song, early use of distortion. Jeff Beck decides he likes this song so much, he re-records it for his first album, without noticable improvement. (But J. Beck enjoys his little niche here on the site).
Train Kept A-Rollin'/I'm A Man: my argument is starting to show some serious signs of weakness.
Still I'm Sad: background vocals apparently based on Gregorian chants, definitely proto.
Happenings Ten Years Time Ago: rhythmically challenging for a rock song of the time, and a beautifully psychedelic solo break (Page & Beck).
Little Games: early use of what I assume is bowed guitar by Page, which he would later employ with LZ (who also enjoy a little niche here on the site).
White Summer: acoustic companion piece to LZ's Black Mountain Side.
Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Sailor: prototypical LZ. Virtually same guitar style as that found on Houses of the Holy.
Just sayin'.
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...and this is where the problems lie for me.
The LZ comparisions carry little weight since LZ is a Prog Related band, not a Progressive Rock Band - Proto-Prog-Related does not have direct effect on Progressive Rock, therefore isn't Proto-Prog by our definition.
The Jeff Beck connection is also tenuous, he is here under Jazz Rock/Fusion, (and not for Truth or Beck-ola), nothing he did while in the Yardbirds reflects the JR/F direction he would later take.
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What?
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65766
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Posted: March 10 2009 at 21:23 |
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I think it's a fair assertion about them being proto, the problem is what prog were they the prototype of? If you look at artists as Touch or GG&F you see the glimmer of something more than the already highly creative rock of the 1960s - the very psych scene itself progressive in a way - but there is a difference between the bands that were simply underground and the ones moving away from the pop market as it was (Prog to take over just a few years later as king for a brief period)..also, as Dean points out, the acts the Yardbirds later spawned weren't prog [Zep, J. Beck, etc.]. It is a fine line to be sure and the Yardies were certainly an inspiration to huge numbers of young rockers, but I don't know if that inspiration gave us much Prog.
Edited by Atavachron - March 10 2009 at 21:25
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jammun
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3449
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Posted: March 10 2009 at 21:32 |
Dean wrote:
jammun wrote:
But Britney aside, back to my initial musing regarding a handful of Yardbirds songs, and then I'll be done with it.
For Your Love: early use of harpsichord in a rock song. Clapton supposedly quits just because of that. Changes of rhythm throughout the song.
Shapes of Things: adventurous rock song, early use of distortion. Jeff Beck decides he likes this song so much, he re-records it for his first album, without noticable improvement. (But J. Beck enjoys his little niche here on the site).
Train Kept A-Rollin'/I'm A Man: my argument is starting to show some serious signs of weakness.
Still I'm Sad: background vocals apparently based on Gregorian chants, definitely proto.
Happenings Ten Years Time Ago: rhythmically challenging for a rock song of the time, and a beautifully psychedelic solo break (Page & Beck).
Little Games: early use of what I assume is bowed guitar by Page, which he would later employ with LZ (who also enjoy a little niche here on the site).
White Summer: acoustic companion piece to LZ's Black Mountain Side.
Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Sailor: prototypical LZ. Virtually same guitar style as that found on Houses of the Holy.
Just sayin'.
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...and this is where the problems lie for me.
The LZ comparisions carry little weight since LZ is a Prog Related band, not a Progressive Rock Band - Proto-Prog-Related does not have direct effect on Progressive Rock, therefore isn't Proto-Prog by our definition.
The Jeff Beck connection is also tenuous, he is here under Jazz Rock/Fusion, (and not for Truth or Beck-ola), nothing he did while in the Yardbirds reflects the JR/F direction he would later take.
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Regarding LZ, understood. I'm not sure anyone would benefit with the addition of a proto-proto-prog-related grouping .
Regarding Jeff Beck, doubly understood. I would assume (and maybe even hope) that without Blow by Blow and Wired on the resume, he would not be here at all.
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jammun
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3449
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Posted: March 10 2009 at 21:42 |
One last comment, and we'll put this one to bed.
While in college, my friends and I rented a house for the year. The landlord had two rules for us:
1. Pay the rent on time.
2. No jailbait in the house.
Now where is that damn walker...
Edited by jammun - March 10 2009 at 21:43
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: March 10 2009 at 22:14 |
jammun wrote:
One last comment, and we'll put this one to bed.
While in college, my friends and I rented a house for the year. The landlord had two rules for us:
1. Pay the rent on time.
2. No jailbait in the house.
Now where is that damn walker...
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hahhaha...
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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earlyprog
Special Collaborator
Neo / PSIKE / Heavy Teams
Joined: March 05 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 2164
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Posted: March 11 2009 at 05:44 |
For completeness:
Yardbirds recorded with sitar and tabla players in early '65. This is evident on "Heart full of Soul" (although the best known version of this song does not use sitar but uses the guitar to imitate the sitar). Before the Beatles and Norwegian Wood !
It's also worth noting that Gouldman (10CC) contributed with song writing.
Now having presented all the evidence, the essential part of course is an assessment based on a listen of the songs listed above.
This topic (again) turned into a discussion of what proto-prog is. Well, that's another topic.
Edited by earlyprog - March 11 2009 at 06:10
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akin
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 06 2004
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 976
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Posted: March 11 2009 at 06:39 |
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Being well acquainted to Yardbirds music, the only thing I can say is that their experimentalism was not more revolutionary than Byrds, Beach Boys, Animals, Rolling Stones and all the psychedelic underground circuit of the sixties though none are considered prog or proto-prog. For example, Blues Magoos' version for Tobacco Road is from 66 and owns everything Yardbirds has made in terms of experimentalism, IMO.
Being the first to use an instrument means nothing. Emil Richards has an album, New Sound Element - Stones (1966), with the earliest use of Moog Synthesizer and uses a lot of assorted percussion from the whole world (people claimed that he arrived at Zodiac - Cosmic Sounds sessions in 1967 with a truck loaded with hundreds of percussion instruments from his collection of more than 700 different percussion instruments!). Even so, the album is jazz. The same way Yardbirds is blues-rock. One little experimental thing here and there, but if you don't pay attention, you will never notice that it isn't pure jazz and blues rock, respectively.
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Yardbirds for proto?
