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Joined: January 07 2008
Location: Somewhere
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Points: 1072
Posted: April 11 2010 at 18:02
halabalushindigus wrote:
..."Bob Dylan makes William Shakespear sound like Billy Joel" - George Harrison
.
.."Here she comes again, the same old painted lady from the brow of the Superbrain, she'll scratch
this world to pieces as she comes on like a friend, but a couple of songs from your ol' scrapbook could
send her home again" - David Bowie
..I wish I'd been a doctor, maybe I'd of save some life that's been lost. Maybe I'd of done some good in
the world, instead of burning every bridge I crossed" - Bob Dylan
Last quote is from Infidels, I luv that album! What a deep, ominous atmosphere that album has, perhaps thanks in part to Mark Knopfler's guitar playing.
Note: this particular one isn't going to win any converts but....
Joined: October 21 2007
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Points: 8052
Posted: April 11 2010 at 18:23
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I say nay, even though Dylan electrified Folk and changed the conception of different genres including Gospel, Rock and even Rockabilly, he never crossed the parameters of Prog or reached the boundaries of Proto Prog.
His early career impacted Rock but not enough for Proto, and his later career is not even remotely related to Prog for PR.
Jon Anderson sung several non Prog songs during his career including YES, (America) so that's not an excuse to add him, neither IMO the fact that some members would want to review his albums.
Iván
There really aren't many albums more influential to the development of rock than Bringing It All Back Home. Additionally, I think it's pretty much undeniable that noone has influenced rock/general popular music lyricists more than Dylan... Steve Hackett, Chris Cutler, Peter Hammill, the Beatles being just a few of those who've acknowledged his influence in that department.
Sides which, Hard Rain's Gonna Fall came out in '63, is 7 minutes long and features imagery as yet pretty much unheard.
Lots of Desire is pretty progressive, I'd reckon... odd instrumentation (violin, additional percussion), some complexity, unusual lyrics, odd structures, narrative lyrics. I mean, it's not exactly Gentle Giant or Gryphon but it's rather more exotic than something like Coheed and Cambria, Broken China or Nuova Era).
I'd say the main argument against his inclusion is that his influence is so broad. I don't think there are many figures who've influence music in general as profoundly as Bob Dylan but whether his influence on 'prog' is particularly special (as The Beatles certainly were, Hendrix is more questionable; Led Zeppelin... well, I'll stay away from that one) remains in doubt.
So yeah, because Dylan's a big artist and he doesn't really fall into the instrumentally-driven rock category, he's probably not going to get in here... frankly, if he wasn't so famous, he'd probably be passed in without much fuss.
But yeah, I think his credentials for influencing the development of progressive music are a lot better than some others we've got around here.
Joined: April 27 2004
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Points: 19557
Posted: April 11 2010 at 20:26
TGM:Orb wrote:
] 1.- There really aren't many albums more influential to the development of rock than Bringing It All Back Home. Additionally, 2.- I think it's pretty much undeniable that noone has influenced rock/general popular music lyricists more than Dylan... Steve Hackett, Chris Cutler, Peter Hammill, the Beatles being just a few of those who've acknowledged his influence in that department.
1.- You said it, to Rock in general,not Progressive Rock in particular
2.- This is a musical site, the lyrics influence is not determinat, if this was a poetry site, OK,. but is a Progressive Rock site
TGM:Orb wrote:
] Sides which, Hard Rain's Gonna Fall came out in '63, is 7 minutes long and features imagery as yet pretty much unheard.
Lenght alone means vety little.
TGM:Orb wrote:
] Lots of Desire is pretty progressive, I'd reckon... odd instrumentation (violin, additional percussion), some complexity, unusual lyrics, odd structures, narrative lyrics. I mean, it's not exactly Gentle Giant or Gryphon but it's rather more exotic than something like Coheed and Cambria, Broken China or Nuova Era).
Progressive as an adjectuve, no doubts, Progressive Rock as a genre, no way
TGM:Orb wrote:
] I'd say the main argument against his inclusion is that his influence is so broad. I don't think there are many figures who've influence music in general as profoundly as Bob Dylan but whether his influence on 'prog' is particularly special (as The Beatles certainly were, Hendrix is more questionable; Led Zeppelin... well, I'll stay away from that one) remains in doubt.
Again, music in General is not enough for a Progressive Rock site
TGM:Orb wrote:
] So yeah, because Dylan's a big artist and he doesn't really fall into the instrumentally-driven rock category, he's probably not going to get in here... frankly, if he wasn't so famous, he'd probably be passed in without much fuss.
That's not the point, his greatness is not negative or positive for his inclusion, the poin is thathe's a GREAT NON PROG ARTIST, soi his addition to ProgArchives is not correct.
TGM:Orb wrote:
] But yeah, I think his credentials for influencing the development of progressive music are a lot better than some others we've got around here.
Again, his influence particularly in Progressive Rock is not determinant IMO.
Joined: January 07 2008
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Points: 1072
Posted: April 12 2010 at 09:39
@Ivan
Have to say that I think progressive lyrics are a huge part of progressive rock. Its not my fault you like Genesis too much and their super-irrelevant lyrics. Many people here cut their teeth on Pink Floyd and seek out fine lyrics.
Joined: March 05 2006
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Posted: April 12 2010 at 09:46
clarke2001 wrote:
earlyprog wrote:
Dylan - among others - influenced proto-proggers who in turn influenced full blown prog.
Proto-prog he was not, but it could be argued that he inspired the Byrds, Jefferson Airplane and others to incorporate folk and turn music in the direction of US psyche.
I woudn't mind seeing the Byrds in proto-prog (as well as two dozens of psyche bands that were highly innovative). However, Dylan influenced proto prog which influenced prog: true. But a bit of a stretch for a website: Dream Theater are influenced by Iron Maiden which are influenced by Deep Purple which are influenced by The Beatles which were influenced by, for example, Chuck Berry; but I don't believe Chuck Berry should be here as an influence on prog. (yes, all thementioned artists in line are here, but they all did some prog, while Chuck didn't).
Taking Dylan into perspective of prog is not such a sinister idea, but the vision of the site would be quite shaken because equally good arguments could be given for The Sex Pistols (entire pop-rock --> alternative --> alt.prog & nu-prog), The Rolling Stones, Buddy Holly...hell, Link Wray !
I hope I didn't come across as embracing Dylan's addition. Not at all. As I stated, he is not proto-prog. He did however influence proto-prog. But that's not the same as saying he is prog.
He was just one of the constituents in the mix that proto-prog was, but by no means prog by himself.
Joined: April 27 2004
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Points: 19557
Posted: April 12 2010 at 09:47
RoyFairbank wrote:
@Ivan
Have to say that I think progressive lyrics are a huge part of progressive rock. Its not my fault you like Genesis too much and their super-irrelevant lyrics. Many people here cut their teeth on Pink Floyd and seek out fine lyrics.
The lyrics are important part of a song of any genre (BTW: I don't believe Genesis lñyrics are irrelevant azt all), a stupid lyric doesn't help in Rock, Folk, Prog or whatever,but lyrics alone, no matter how intelligent they are don't define a genre ´per se", a genre is defined by the MUSIC.
Bob Dylan was one of the great game-changers in 60s music. Before Dylan there was little lyrical complexity, weak, repetitive themes, and a lack of political and philosophical content in popular music. Even bands such as the Beatles hardly strayed from the normal content of pop music, even as they began to tinker with the forms. Bob Dylan came out of the Folk movement and was influenced by 40s/50s stalwarts like Woody Guthrie and Pete Seeger. Dylan, however, immediately became a success. His first album was modest and somewhat traditional, but soon he was coming out with unique, catchy folk albums. Many of the songs were much longer and less repetitive than contemporary pop, 6, 7, 8 minute songs being common. Dylan greatly influenced the Beatles, who began writing more complex music, lyrically, thematically and musically, against the norms of pop. Bob Dylan meanwhile went electric, although he had some great acoustic numbers like the 12 minute long, surrealistic masterpiece Desolation Row on Highway 61 Revisited (1965).
In 1966 he recorded the electric 12 minute long "Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands" which was later sung by Jon Anderson on Steve Howe's "Portraits of Bob Dylan." Two other tracks on the double album Blonde on Blonde were also over 7 minutes as well as being electric. After this initial phase, where he heavily influenced the development of Prog Music, Dylan went through different stages. His unorthodox music ebbed and flowed, sometimes resulting in minor masterpieces like Blood on the Tracks and Infidels, sometimes disasters. He went through a country stage, a joke stage, a christian stage, a traditional music stage and the popular modern stage, but he always remained a standout figure.
As a layer of the foundation stones of Prog, Dylan should be included on these archives, for us to review.
If lengthy songs would be a reason to include artists, then let's include Arlo Guthrie as well. His 18-minute epic Alice's Restaurant was released in 1967, just before The Collectors What Love (Suite) and Procol Harum's In Held 'Twas in I, being one of the first, if not the very first, side-long epic.
Joined: January 07 2008
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Posted: April 12 2010 at 12:52
Okay, I agree with what some people have said about Dylan being more proto-proto-prog than outright proto-prog. That makes sense, but there is no proto-proto-prog category. The main point is that without Dylan, there wouldn't have been progressive rock as we know it. You can't say that about most individual artists before Proto-Prog. Dylan shifted the gears completely and was not a simple product of his time or genre. Prog emerged from a long curve of development - not necessary immediately from the Beatles and late 60s bands.
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halabalushindigus wrote:
