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Jonathan View Drop Down
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Points: 201 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Grateful Dead for psych/space rock
    Posted: January 26 2013 at 07:12
I agree with you on "The Who", They maybe put out ONE Album before the Prog Movement Started in England.
(I think Procol Harum started over there. That's just me though.)
But they don't belong in Proto-Prog.
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Points: 11420 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2013 at 07:04
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

I think the rule is the same

So do I, although it is so convoluted these days that I don't think anybody knows. Good example I can think of off the top of my head is Miles Davis, whose extensive discography is on the site, but, out of those, how many are prog? Three, four at best?

For what it is worth, I do not think that GD belong here, for the simple matter they were never a prog or progressive rock band, were never a part of that "scene", even to the point that they were never art rock in the sense we used to use the word. Dean is also correct in that the prog related badge could, in theory, extend to so many acts that it would overtake the prog section itself.

I am, in writing this, fully aware before people reply that this argument could be extended very widely. The Who are a very good example. A great band, yes. One of my favourite bands. Progressive in the sense that they pushed quite a few barriers and Townsend experimented with new sounds, yes. But a progressive rock band, even prog related? No, IMO. They were a rock band, born out of an explosion of blues based music in the 1960's. And before people come back with Tommy, yes it was a concept album, I know, but it was not a progressive rock album. The phrase hadn't even been invented at the time of release. Townsend used the phrase rock opera.


Perceptive post certainly. I'm also a big Who fan and just like Steve, I can point to their innovation and experimentation with longer forms, subject matter and structures etc but cannot defend their inclusion in PA (they're here because presumably some collab(s) succeeded in getting their favourite rock bands admitted, which applies for Sabbath to boot - who I also adore)

Unfortunately I'm completely biased re the Grateful Dead, and care not a jot for their progressive credentials as for me, they represent a war crime against silence.
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Jonathan View Drop Down
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Points: 201 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2013 at 06:49
I think Prog-Related would be a better place for GD.
They belong here more than most Bands in the Proto-Prog Section, IMHO.
(After 1967, There was no more Proto-Prog in America or England to me)
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Points: 17659 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2013 at 06:43
Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul HarbouringTheSoul wrote:

I am of the opinion that just about any 60s band worth a damn could be added to proto-prog or prog-related, but that doesn't mean all of them should. Reserve them for bands who either had a notable influence on prog artists or were regarded as part of the "progressive" scene at the time.


THIS!! Smile


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Points: 13849 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2013 at 06:22
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

I think the rule is the same

So do I, although it is so convoluted these days that I don't think anybody knows. Good example I can think of off the top of my head is Miles Davis, whose extensive discography is on the site, but, out of those, how many are prog? Three, four at best?

For what it is worth, I do not think that GD belong here, for the simple matter they were never a prog or progressive rock band, were never a part of that "scene", even to the point that they were never art rock in the sense we used to use the word. Dean is also correct in that the prog related badge could, in theory, extend to so many acts that it would overtake the prog section itself.

I am, in writing this, fully aware before people reply that this argument could be extended very widely. The Who are a very good example. A great band, yes. One of my favourite bands. Progressive in the sense that they pushed quite a few barriers and Townsend experimented with new sounds, yes. But a progressive rock band, even prog related? No, IMO. They were a rock band, born out of an explosion of blues based music in the 1960's. And before people come back with Tommy, yes it was a concept album, I know, but it was not a progressive rock album. The phrase hadn't even been invented at the time of release. Townsend used the phrase rock opera.
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Points: 14788 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2013 at 01:50
I think the rule is the same
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Points: 65766 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2013 at 20:22
^ there was a time around here when one full prog album was enough to get you a spot somewhere on PA
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Points: 5484 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2013 at 06:43
Yes, the Dead had a few prog albums.  "Blues For Allah" is one that I haven't seen mentioned here.
 
But of their (now) masssive catalog, only a few albums truly qualify.
 
For the same reason that a jazz artists with many albums, but one ore two fusion albums, is also not listed here.
 
Phish, although heavily Dead influenced, has many other references.  For instance, they also incorporated Zappa into their sound.
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Points: 23108 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2013 at 04:13
As a huge fan I must admit to feeling a tad confused, when I first learned that GD weren't on PA. I then proceeded to get involved with the site - got to learn up front the distinctions between progressive and prog, even if it was a complete mindf*ck at times, and then finally realising why they weren't here.
It's the same sort of discussion we've been having about Philip Glass, even if he is miles away from The Dead. Either way, it boils down to what this particular site focuses on, and that is prog - not progressive music.

GD will never stand a chance in psych space here, and rightfully so too, because they're not a prog band. They were a progressive blues outfit, who then took things way out there and beyond, especially in a live setting(I loooove Dick's Picks) - yet I can't see them included on PA other than in proto and related. I feel much the same about Edgar Broughton Band actually...
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Points: 65766 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2013 at 02:59
Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul HarbouringTheSoul wrote:

I am of the opinion that just about any 60s band worth a damn could be added to proto-prog or prog-related, but that doesn't mean all of them should. Reserve them for bands who either had a notable influence on prog artists or were regarded as part of the "progressive" scene at the time.
it's a good point
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Points: 1199 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2013 at 02:54
I am of the opinion that just about any 60s band worth a damn could be added to proto-prog or prog-related, but that doesn't mean all of them should. Reserve them for bands who either had a notable influence on prog artists or were regarded as part of the "progressive" scene at the time.
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Points: 14788 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2013 at 01:19
Proto makes sense at least from a hystorical point of view, but there's plenty of less famous bands rejected for the same reasons
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2013 at 22:05
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ I have argued both for and against the inclusion of the Dead, but remember our Space/Psych section is for progressive S/P, not just any.    If you don't believe the Grateful Dead are progressive (as you stated up front) you can't logically request their inclusion on PA.

IMO the best place for the Dead would be Protoprog.


Not a fan of GD but I'm with you David,

Greatful Dead and the Bonzo Dog Doh Dah Band should be here in PROTO

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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2013 at 21:32
Sadly they've been rejected again and again even for Prog-Related.
"Anthem Of The Sun" and "Terrapin Station" are the most progressive album of all their creations but I have no idea to add them.
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Points: 5856 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2013 at 21:28
I think they would fit great in Proto.
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Points: 831 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2013 at 21:24
they have studio songs that are definitely progressive such as Terrapin Station... I do agree that they fit best in protoprog, or maybe prog related. either way they definitely deserve mention somewhere considering some other bands that have their own pages on the site..

edit:posted before i read the whole thread and now before anyone else responds i would like to say yes i understand this post is literally what the other Dead heads have already stated...


Edited by Sumdeus - January 24 2013 at 21:30
Sumdeus - surreal space/psych/prog journeys
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Points: 65766 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2013 at 21:15
^ I have argued both for and against the inclusion of the Dead, but remember our Space/Psych section is for progressive S/P, not just any.    If you don't believe the Grateful Dead are progressive (as you stated up front) you can't logically request their inclusion on PA.

IMO the best place for the Dead would be Protoprog.
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Points: 2 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2013 at 15:33
Forget about the Dead being Prog rock, I'm a massive Deadhead and I would not think for a second that they are, BUT what I find absolutely sickening is that these guys are not even listed under Psychedelic / space rock. 

Oh really?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NtvoM6Sh_Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d55FciHtM9w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgXO4mVTa5g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72iVSo6iXz8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz4W4YThKOc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvRKsyAF-h8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJIS97uuSWY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuR5IEfbJcI


The requirements should not have to deal only with Studio albums.

Live Dead is exceeds all requirements and Anthem of the Sun as well.

What blows my mind is that there is not ONE SINGLE MENTION of The Dead on this whole entire website. 

Kinda hard to listen to the above examples and not use the words psychedelic or space.

The above examples don't even scratch the surface either!!!

I don't get it...


"Grateful Dead were an American rock band formed in 1965 in Palo Alto, California.[1][2] The band was known for its unique and eclectic style, which fused elements of rock, folk, bluegrass, blues, reggae, country, improvisational jazz, psychedelia, and space rock,[3][4] and for live performances of long musical improvisation.[5][6] "Their music," writes Lenny Kaye, "touches on ground that most other groups don't even know exists."[7] These various influences were distilled into a diverse and psychedelic whole that made the Grateful Dead "the pioneering Godfathers of the jam band world."[8] 

"Often (both in performance and on recording) the Dead left room for exploratory, spacey soundscapes."

"purveyors of freely improvised space music," -- Blender Magazine, May 2003

""Dark Star," both in its title and in its structure (designed to incorporate improvisational exploration), is the perfect example of the kind of "space music" that the Dead are famous for. 

This is THE band that helped pioneer this genre in the U.S.

Put em on the f**kin' list.



Edited by ChickenNugget - January 24 2013 at 15:35
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Points: 170 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 20 2012 at 00:05
Originally posted by Adams Bolero Adams Bolero wrote:

The 23 minute psychedelic masterpiece that is Dark Star should be enough to justify their inclusion here. I can clearly hear the influence of the Grateful Dead in prog bands like Agitation Free.

I think this is part of the problem. Dark Star was in fact a 2 min b side that transformed into this larger-than-life thing only live. Tons of bands did that sort of thing live in the 70s and they aren't prog. I think the prog aspect of GD was more present in their live gigs.
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Points: 679 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 19 2012 at 22:31
The 23 minute psychedelic masterpiece that is Dark Star should be enough to justify their inclusion here. I can clearly hear the influence of the Grateful Dead in prog bands like Agitation Free.
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