Hero and Heroine: Strawbs
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Recommendations/Featured albums
Forum Description: Make or seek recommendations and discuss specific prog albums
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=101012
Printed Date: July 19 2025 at 00:31
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Hero and Heroine: Strawbs
Posted By: SteveG
Subject: Hero and Heroine: Strawbs
Date Posted: January 17 2015 at 11:43
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Considered Strawbs' high water mark in progressive rock, what's tour take on Hero and Heroine? ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Replies:
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 18 2015 at 13:26
No love for the Strawbs?  ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Moogmoods
Date Posted: January 18 2015 at 14:49
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Absolutely superb album - never tire of it. ------------- The purpose of life is a life of purpose - Athena Orchard |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 18 2015 at 14:56
^ ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: January 18 2015 at 15:06
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It has been my all-time #1 since its appearance in 1974! It has a healing capacity that defies logic. Just a perfect recording! ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 18 2015 at 15:08
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^ ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: January 18 2015 at 17:24
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Well, it's my favorite by the Strawbs.....then Grave New World, etc. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Walton Street
Date Posted: January 18 2015 at 17:47
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an amazing timeless piece of work. Love this album - it's pure magic. the title track is the only song i know all the words to by heart :) ------------- "I know one thing: that I know nothing" - SpongeBob Socrates |
Posted By: TeleStrat
Date Posted: January 18 2015 at 19:09
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My preference puts this album even with Grave New World. Then Ghosts, Deep Cuts and Burning For You (in that order). Those are the only Strawbs albums I own.
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 19 2015 at 08:25
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Hi,
Have it and like it.
I also like the followup album "Ghosts", and consider these two, Strawbs best work all around. Later on they had a massively nice piece in "Deadlines" but for me, most of the album is quite forgettable, and I can barely mention any tunes in it.
Notice I said "tunes".
Strawbs is a part of what I call the 2nd tier of bands in Brittain, and are always attractive in so many ways. They might not have a master album that shines out bigger and better than the sun, but each album is always with one or two things that stand out.
it's bands like this that have my collection so fat! But they are great to listen to and enjoy! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 20 2015 at 14:00
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^ ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: January 20 2015 at 14:32
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Hero and Heroine is also a complete masterpiece, with a brooding intro in Autumn (one of the finest ever!), the subsequent suite is sheer brilliance, a country feel with Sad Young Man, a fun poppy track with Just Love , the brief yet bombastic Shine On Silver Sun, the raging mellotron-infested title track , a gorgeous folk ballad like Midnight Sun, and a final four that all coalesces into one grand finale, featuring the lewd lyrics of Out in the Cold, the hypnotic slash of Round and Round and the soothing Lay a Little Light on Me anthem. Sound is top notch and the playing by all is just stunning. I always listen to this when I feel a bite of the blues and it works every time ! ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: January 20 2015 at 14:37
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According to my Last.fm profile, I've heard this album about eight times. And there's still not a track for me to really like at the very least, if not love. Way too dated and unoriginal, and I just don't like Cousins' voice and lyrics. His delivery is nice, though. But the album does have its pluses: "Hero's Theme", "Just Love", some moments here and there like the intro to the medley.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 20 2015 at 14:55
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^ ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: January 20 2015 at 14:56
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Dated? Yup, so are The Beatles, Bach and Miles Davis! As for unoriginal , perhaps by 2015 standards but at the time (1974) this type of mellotron -fronted prog was a very very new thing! Taste is not debatable, so Vive la Difference!  ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 20 2015 at 14:59
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^ ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: January 20 2015 at 15:09
If I heard the 'tron for the first time in '67, I'm pretty sure by '74 I'd be much more interested in something else, especially if I heard that specific progression from the medley.
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tszirmay wrote:Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 20 2015 at 15:13
| ^Even if their sound is dated, you have to give Hawkin credit for his subtle and sublime use of the Mellotron on this album which included choral settings. It's a Mellotron clinic that he gets little appreciation for. |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: January 20 2015 at 15:32
| ^ I don't remember the choral sound. Which track features it? (Wasn't it the group's vocal effort?) |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 20 2015 at 19:41
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^Midnight Sun. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: January 20 2015 at 21:28
Fantastic album! I had never heard of the band, but saw them one evening on the American TV show "Midnight Special..." As I recall, they opened with "Round and Round". I was blown away! I was just starting to learn guitar and bass, so my first real bass I ever learned to play was Chas Cronk's line to "Hero and Heroine." Some years ago I emailed a bit with John Hawken, he seemed to be a real British gent! Highly recommended (also their followup "Ghosts")
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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: January 20 2015 at 21:58
Not in the least bit dated. This is a fine fine album showing all the pedigree Strawbs had to offer around the early/mid 70's. Autumn, Out In The Cold, Midnight sun.....Remembering( Hawkin's at his best), It was the precursor to their best IMHO, Ghosts. In terms of the membership of Strawbs, the finest line up, although personally I felt all their albums were vintage up to and including Deadlines even with latter day line up changes. I have the most wonderful vinyl pressing of this  , sorry showing off now.edit- Remembering off Ghosts, apologies, getting old....remembering or lack of  ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: January 20 2015 at 22:53
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Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 00:51
You are right!  ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 02:33
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Bought the vinyl cheap a decade ago but haven't listened to in years. It it really considered their best? I prefer all their pervious releases. The album opener Autumn would be sublime if it wasn't for its childlike singalong ending. That's folk-cheese for you and so is the cringeworthy chorus on Shine on Silver Sun. There's at least a couple of half assed pubrock-rockin' tunes as well. There's little I loath more. A hard working band among many trying to complete a decent album while knowing they have a slight lack of quality material is what it sounded like to me. A couple of standouts are about as good as the best stuff on Grave New World but very little comes near their peak album From the Witchwood. I saw them live as an acoustic trio a couple of years ago which was fantastic. Better than any of their studio albums. |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 05:21
... Just making a point, that is all.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 09:52
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Posted By: floflo79
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 10:00
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Dated music doesn't bother me, but the 80's drum sound is an exception. Hero & Heroine is easily the best Strawbs album, easily one of the best prog folk albums, but it's not in my top 20 of 1974 (!). ------------- 
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Posted By: Walton Street
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 10:02
don't bother me in the least either ------------- "I know one thing: that I know nothing" - SpongeBob Socrates |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 10:19
^That works too.  ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 10:56
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 11:07
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^Because criticizing the 'age factor' of a musical genre like prog rock achieves the same goal. That's the point. If you don't understand that, then I can't help you.
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Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 11:21
So the 1967 to 1974 mellotron 'fad' makes one want to move onto something else? What about the '67 drums, or '67 bass or '67 guitars?. Just making your point a tad pointless! You could not have heard the 'tron in 1967 , you were not born yet, according to your profile  Of course, you were just making a point.------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 11:39
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^ Huh? ... You are not making any sense. What does any of it have to do with what I said? I said: "... I'd be much more interested in something else." That does not necessarily imply I'd give up on the 'tron. What I look for is evolution. And why are we bringing in other instruments?
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Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 11:44
If I need a teacher or a psychiatrist, I will give you a call. I have more sense than you think, as I write reviews instead of ambushing words I then conveniently forget. If you do not remember what you wrote, scrolling back may be a good idea. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 11:47
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^ Eh ... a knee-jerk and arrogant comment. Instead you could point out what it is that I "conveniently forgot" for no apparent reason, because yes, I do read and re-read, edit and re-edit my comments (in case if you haven't noticed). Forget about time and what instrument is being used. Think about what methodology the user applies when working with an instrument when it comes to writing for and producing an album. An important note: I see what SteveG meant by the "age factor". When I use the word "dated", I automatically think "used over and over for a long time until its popularity wears thin" (couldn't think of a word other than "dated"). I don't think about when a particular thing came about or became popular, which is probably what both of you meant.
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Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 11:59
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Arrogance ? MOI? I think not ! Please, you are not dealing with a child, be a little wiser!
You state that 7 years is way too long to anoint the mellotron as a major musical
mover (you solidify the argument by stating YOU would look for something else
and the need to move on). So is that not applicable to other instruments? Are
you bigoted in any way? Also we did not raise that argument, I did! Thirdly,
Chopin and Bach are dated or not dated, in your humble and worldly mind? Knee-jerk , I am a buddhist ! ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 12:17
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[QUOTE=tszirmay]Arrogance? MOI? I think not ! ... be a little wiser![/QUOTE] ... ... Eh?(The quoting system is letting me down; I'll break up my responses in posts.)
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Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 12:18
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[QUOTE=tszirmay]You state that 7 years is way too long to anoint the mellotron as a major musical mover (you solidify the argument by stating YOU would look for something else and the need to move on).[/QUOTE] Again, that's not what I said. What I said was: "... I'd be much more interested in something else." "That does not necessarily imply I'd give up on the 'tron. What I look for is evolution." The way the 'tron was used (I'm going for a word more general than "played") back in the day is how you hear it on the records from that '67-'74 period. Time to move on from that methodology to a different way of using the instrument. So, no, I am not bigoted; you just misunderstood what I said. |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 12:19
(Also, I've edited http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=101012&PID=5116900#5116900" rel="nofollow - this post with bold. Just a heads up.)
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Posted By: Walton Street
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 12:41
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2 - and only 2 things in music are dated. the 80's drum machine as previously mentioned, and the do do doo do do do sound in Bad Company's Rock and Roll Fantasy contrary to popular belief, the cowbell is as contemporary as ever. ------------- "I know one thing: that I know nothing" - SpongeBob Socrates |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 12:44
You respond with such belittling sarcasm I now realize that I am in the presence of someone way beyond my humbleness! But, Yawn, you are not very detailed are you, I suggest you being a pseudo psychiatrist and you respond with Eh ... a knee-jerk and arrogant comment. Spoken like a true professional loonie bin director. Thanks for proving my point, gospodin! Truth is you are a semi-clever slicer and dicer, millions more of you out there. So you know what, you are ABSOLUTELY right,
you are the light! Shine a little on us and guide us to the promised land ! ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Walton Street
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 12:49
didn't you say you were a Buddhist? ------------- "I know one thing: that I know nothing" - SpongeBob Socrates |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 12:51
What belittling sarcasm are you talking about? And why are you choosing to belittle me instead of sticking with the topic of the discussion?
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Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 12:52
Jeez, what a grumpy thread!  I'm not sure why some are arguing about H&H having a "dated" sound, I thought it was just fine in that era and has held up very well. One aspect that I didn't care for much was Dave Lambert's guitar phrasing on solos. He seemed to be more of a "straight ahead rock soloist" than prog guitarist, well-versed in scales, modes etc. Not that it is a bad thing, David Gilmour has a similar, blues-based style. However, I would have liked more Robert Fripp than Robert Johnson.
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Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 12:52
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Yup, and my words prove it, always give the judge his own space to question himself. I accept his criticism, his opinion , his sarcasm and his insult with grace and humility. Even if he is wrong! ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 12:54
What sarcasm and what insult? "Knee-jerk" and "arrogant" are merely words of observation. You are being too quick with the conclusions.
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Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 12:54
THIS :"Also, I've edited http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=101012&PID=5116900#5116900" rel="nofollow - this post with bold. Just a heads up". My head is always up , btw! ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 12:56
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A 'sad young man' who does not even bother to remember what he said, tsk, tsk! ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Walton Street
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 12:57
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you guys do know that this is national hug day don't you? ------------- "I know one thing: that I know nothing" - SpongeBob Socrates |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 13:01
finally something funny, when I was a teen, my girlfriend complained that I was "too quick with the conclusions"! Okay Andrey, like Kati would say, Hug time, we had fun boiling over!  No hard feelings ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 13:04
| ^ Sure. There was a better way to end the previously ongoing discussion, but whatever. ... Ooh. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 13:07
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I guess that this hallowed album has a lot of meaning for me, being my #1 all-time and one likes to defend the ones you love, a natural, very human instinct. Ah, passion, such a rare mellotron (read: instrument) in today's apathetic computer world! ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 21 2015 at 16:07
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[QUOTE=Dayvenkirq] Steve said: "All music of a certain time period will be dated either through topical social commentary, instruments used, recording techniques and quarks like Jon Anderson's spiritual lyrics." Which I countered with "And under 'all music' do you also include Chopin and Bach?", thus expressing disagreement with Steve. So, no, I don't think it's dated. I think it's fresh as ever. __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Now that the hoopla is past, I can answer your question regarding if I include Chopin and Bach under the term "all music". My answer would be yes in regards to Chopin and Bach's view toward older classical music. Franz Shubert was said to dislike the compositions of Antonio Vivaldi on the grounds of age as Vivaldi proceeded Shubert by approximately 100 years. We look at classical music, it's forerunners and it's variants with hundreds of years of hindsight and say things like "it's timeless". But that wasn't always the case. Especially when it was originally written. That's what I meant by "all music" is dated to some degree. But to get to the important point. I do not feel that you unjustly criticized the Hero and Heroine album, it has aspects that you don't like and that's perfectly fine with me. That's why they made juke boxes to play more than just one record. (Sorry for the strange format-editing problems.)
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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: January 22 2015 at 01:23
how lame can you get of course Chopin and Bach are dated but it is still " classic" music which paradoxically does not date. Wonder if you will understand that statementSo what if this album has a date stamp?? All music does, some more than others. Someone referenced 80's drum fills! Listen to Marillion..... Anyway, mellotrons or not a classic Strawbs release ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: January 22 2015 at 01:29
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^ Eh ... not with the bashing/namecalling again. ... Alright, "classic", yes. It does not date, ... certainly, it does not date. That's what I meant by "not dated".
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: January 22 2015 at 08:14
| Their best effort. I particularly love the ending of "Silver Sun" or the return of it where the voices are going backwards which closes the album. I like the flow of the album. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 22 2015 at 09:59
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^ ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Walton Street
Date Posted: January 22 2015 at 10:02
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I loved this album so much that I was horribly disappointed by Nomadness when it came out (somehow I jumped right over Ghosts) I've come to love Nomadness since and I've just recently become acquainted with Ghosts. ------------- "I know one thing: that I know nothing" - SpongeBob Socrates |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 22 2015 at 10:14
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^Yes, Nomadness grew on me as later Strawbs albums got weaker. One of thier most progressive albums is the on again/off again reissue of 1978's Heartbreak Hill. The two best songs Starting Over and the great title track can be found on a new compilation titled Prognostic. They may be live versions from the Strawbs' 40th anniversary album vol. 2, which are as good as the studio originals. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Walton Street
Date Posted: January 22 2015 at 10:22
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I don't have anything past Don't Say Goodbye I have them all on vinyl from 'Just a Collection...' up to and including Don't Say Goodbye .. Still cant find the first 2 albums ------------- "I know one thing: that I know nothing" - SpongeBob Socrates |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 22 2015 at 10:27
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^Yes, The debut and Dragonfly are extremely difficult to find on vinyl as there were not released in the States immediately, and only sporadically in the seventies. You might have to go digital on these. The debut is killer.
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: January 22 2015 at 12:19
Nomadness, another hidden jewel......Golden salamander; So Shall Our Love Die; Hanging in the gallery; Promised Land; Wakeman's visit on Tokyo Rose and the bluesy Absent Friend - How I need you- where Cousin's sounds almost like Gabriel on his debut's Waiting For The Big One What is NOT to like ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: March 24 2015 at 14:27
| chiming in a bit late here, but this at least gives the album a well deserved bump. It's probably the most perfectly constructed Strawbs album (well, maybe wlong with GNW), with the whole being far greater than the sum of its parts. But neither of those are my favorites. For those, I go with albums that best reveal the group's ability to be both cerebral and accessible, a la Moody Blues - "Ghosts" and "Bursting at the Seams". Such juxtapositions of light and dark, brooding and belting out. Whereas Hero and GNW were decidedly dark with only occasional lightness. |
Posted By: Squonk19
Date Posted: April 03 2015 at 07:03
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A long-standing fan of this band - spanning all aspects of their folk, pop and prog styles. Hero & Heroine is their prog rock high water mark - with tracks like 'Round & Round' and 'Autumn' - but you can find highlights on most other albums as well. Always liked Dave Cousins' voice but I can appreciate why some find it a barrier. The pastoral singer-songwriter style is always a refreshing change to their heavier stuff - but I think you need to be open to the English folk tradition to appreciate it fully. Always great lyrics and nice changes of tempo. 'Blue Angel' from Dave's solo album appears on some compilations, and is a real epic classic which you can add to the Strawbs playlist. Generally some good keyboards in the background...not least from the Wakemans! ------------- Living in their pools, they soon forget about the sea. |
Posted By: Lafayette Assburn
Date Posted: April 03 2015 at 07:40
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Yes, "Nomadness" was a pleasant surprize, especially as I read on more than one forum that one should stay away from this lp as well as the one that came after. (And the coverart is deffo a turn-off.) I cannot understand why "hero & Heroine" is considered their "high water mark". Sure , its a fine lp but give me "Witchwood" or "Grave New World" over "Hero". "Hero" sounds bit more contemporary to me, whereas "Witchwood" is more "English" and pastoral. If you took all the mellotron off "Hero", would it still be rated so highly? (Don't think so) |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 03 2015 at 09:18
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Hi,
Betty Boop is outdated ... about the only thing I find outdated these days is Elvis!
And, of course, Katy and all of us will be outdated sooner than we think!
STRAWBS is just fine with me! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: April 03 2015 at 16:30
funny how that remark keeps getting parroted around the internet, specifically about Hero and Heroine. Take the mellotron out of ITCOCK and what do you have? Take it out of most Moody Blues albums and what do you have. Take it out of Watcher of the Skies and what do you have? What is, I don't know, "The Wall", without the paranoid depressive lyrics. What is "Close to the Edge" without Squire's bass? It's irrelevant, because Hero and Heroine has mellotron, the use of which helps to make it special. There's also Cousins' lyrics, the usual memorable melodies, Chas Cronk's backing vocals, Rod Coombes nimble drumming, the galling variety of styles (typical of Strawbs), and so on. Actually, acoustic Strawbs do versions of quite a few of the songs off this album and they sound fresh and fine.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: April 04 2015 at 11:01
| ^Agreed. I never understood this Mellotron proviso myself. H&H is a great album because it featured a line up of musicians that was tailor made for prog and was firing on all cylinders as was Cousins' songwriting ability. The Mellotron merely added to a great album and was the not main cause for this album being great. |
Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: April 04 2015 at 16:11
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Every home should have one. ------------- |