Has prog lost its way?
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Topic: Has prog lost its way?
Posted By: Disparate Times
Subject: Has prog lost its way?
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 08:21
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The best part of 70's prog bands was that they were all very different from each other and everyone else. Unfortunately it seems that all that ingenuity all these years later have only helped to create guidelines for what progressive music is allowed to be. With bands like Glass Hammer sounding more like a tribute band than an original band. To me that isn't progressive at all. Perhaps they are more interested in selling records than pushing the boundaries of music. I understand that after all that has come to pass it is more difficult now-a-days to create something "brand new" and still be interesting, but the lack of effort to even try, to me, is a very disappointing thing in all of music especially prog. I do enjoy what Jack O The Clock is doing, I just hope that all the attention from the prog community doesn't corrupt them too.
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Replies:
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 08:37
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Great post, and one that finds me in complete agreement. As I have pointed out several times, though I still enjoy the classics, the various modern versions of "conventional" prog leave me cold - with very few exceptions. While I do like a few so-called "retro" bands, my tastes have increasingly grown away from that scene, and now reside more with anything on the fringes of "true-blue" prog. I second your mention of Jack O'the Clock, which I'm looking forward to seeing on stage at ProgDay - though I don't think you need to fear about their becoming a run-of-the-mill prog band in the future. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 08:48
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^ nor do we need to worry about corruption of the truly progressive today. Many of those bands, like Jack O' the Clock, do NOT consider themselves prog, associate themselves with prog or any kind of movement, and any attention given to them by 'prog fan' is just gravy man. They are out there playing to ... music fans.. who could give a sh*t about tags and labels. Again.. as has been noted by myself and other forward thinkers. The music and those making it has come back full circle to the late 60's/early 70's. They just take their influences and make music.. who cares about what some reviewer/website tags it as. Progressive Rock as it once was, has come back. Prog Rock? Dying for years.. sure some still make music that harkens back to the stylistic and sonic standards of the past... but the only people interested in that are old farts and those militant 'prog fan'. Those are dying off just as much as the bands themselves.. be it old age.. or lack of a wider audience. The bands that are thriving today appeal to those who like music..and want something different... not just to 'prog fan' who has, beyond any doubt ...Nearfest?.. shown ZERO real interest in supporting the genre beyond nostalgia bands.. and current nostalgia themed bands. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Disparate Times
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 08:49
| Maybe not run of the mill but their night loops album explored more rock style songs, if it's true that they've depleted their pool of songs from the first four albums this could be the direction they go for better or worse we'll see |
Posted By: progresssaurus
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 09:04
^^^^ What can I say? Maybe problem is in me, but you are right  
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Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 09:25
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There are very few of the mainstream prog bands who interest me, echolyn and Discipline would be exceptions, there are loads of great bands working at the edges like Normal Love and Make A Rising. I have lots of hope for the modern scene if definitions are expanded. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 09:30
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I think there is a big difference between "Progressive" and "Prog"; progressive being more an innovative way to write music, trying to push the boundaries of a particular genre, mixing beat and rhythms, etc. Where as prog is more a genre based on the music created by the progressive bands of what is know the "Classic Era", meaning mostly long pieces, odd meters, a lot of instrumental parts, etc. Progressive music has always existed, be it jazz, rock, blues, etc, and will always continue to exists, as long as there are artists who want to challenge themselves in their abilities to create interesting, listenable music, but don't expect it to be like it was during the "Classic Era" of progressive rock, which is what's happening with the "Prog" genre.
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Posted By: GKR
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 09:50
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What annoys me is the "Comparison game". We are always comparing somthing with another thing. Maybe thats the sickness of our time. We are always look behind. ------------- - From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. |
Posted By: Disparate Times
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 10:22
Yes i agree it is the band's that can't reasonably be compared to others that seem to be doing something right. Sadly you have dig pretty deep to discover those bands. |
GKR wrote:Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 10:23
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I'm not sure, but most of the times when I start a thread about a new music group that's connected to the progressive rock scene (even distantly) that I also find interesting I don't get as many replies as I've hoped. No idea how representative this forum is of progressive rock as a "community" in general, though. ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: Wicket
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 12:44
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It's a valid point, this argument, but I've always believed for the past 15 or so years, bands have become to expand their sounds to include different genres, to the point where the lines between rock and prog and metal are so easily blurred, and because of that, artists and bands don't really care about "genre", as it's all music. Same notes, same instruments, just played differently. Granted, there's obviously a "nostaglic" level that needs to be considered when talking about 60's and 70's prog, but because that was a signature sound, we have so many different prog sub-genres to sort of distinguish themselves from the lot. It all has to do with our innate need to categorize and describe things that ordinary people would find indescribable. Personally, that's why I enjoy discovering new modern "prog" bands, mainly because they make whatever the hell kind of music they want to make, which is usually a conglomeration of multiple styles, some prog and some not. It's a natural, cyclic progression. Psychedelic rock was all the rage when the kids of the day got sick and tired of the same ol' rock 'n roll. Less than 10 years later the genres was virtually extinct. Music is constantly changing, and always will. It adapts to the trends of the listening populace, and sometimes repeats itself more than once. So to truly answer the question, no, I don't think prog has necessarily lost its way, it's just started using the iPhone and tablet and shaved off its hippie hair. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 12:53
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Never knew that prog had a 'way'. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 13:00
This is an exceptional post  Absolutely knowing, and absolutely spot on. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 13:04
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"There is nothing new except what has been forgotten" - Patrick Moraz ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: Gentle Yes
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 13:20
I completely agree! The thing is that it's the way people see music that has changed... It's not about the music anymore.. it's about facebook likes, shows, the image of the bands, views on youtube, beards, clothes... of course there are exceptions but unfortunately they are not enough. Prog is not a music that could have endured this change. The classics long live and prosper because of the huge gift they gave to the world, but the way today's musicians work, I think it would be very difficult to create something as wide as the 70s music. I mean look at today's music.. do you think that if Close to the Edge, an album with three songs, the first one being longer than a tv show episode would gain the publics' liking? I highly doubt it... We are the remnants of an older time.. I myself am a young musician, and I struggle to write original , real music...it's not that easy when you know that there are few who will appreciate it for what it is. Unfortunately I think that the golden age of Prog and music in general is going towards it's dusk... All we can do is preserve the memory and prolong it's fading life as much as we can :) |
Posted By: Skalla-Grim
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 13:41
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70s prog has brought important innovations to the musical structures of rock music. After the 70s, it was popular to return to standard metres, standard harmonic structures and so on. But that was NOT innovation but restoration, a huge (and sad) step back. So if you want to be "truly progressive" today, in my opinion you can't ignore the innovations that prog brought in the 70s. Sometimes I hear "true progress in rock nowadays is not made in prog rock". And I think when you ask where true progress is made, many music lovers will name bands who can add some strange noises to their rock music but can play only in 4/4. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 13:45
sure it does.. 20 minute epics.. stupid lyrical concepts, often done to death in 80 minute musical death marches. loads of mellotron and a Rickenbacker bass.. you know.. Prog Rock.. the genre... dying off thankfully.. replaced by real progressive music. Creative stuff man. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Gentle Yes
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 13:57
So true. |
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 14:27
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The path of prog is not preordained - there is no "way" to lose. It goes where it wishes and that's what I like about it. Some bands move prog on in weird and unexpected ways, others do what has been attempted before in new and different ways. Only a very few try to imitate and replicate the 70s. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 14:33
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Prog lost its way around 1983 but regained it pretty quickly during the late 80's and 90's and is today almost as strong as it was in its heyday of the 70's! |
Posted By: WeepingElf
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 15:02
Seconded. 70s prog was truly innovative and progressive (even if most of their innovations had already been done earlier in classical and avant-garde music), and opened up new horizons for rock music. Most later subgenres of rock threw out the achievements of prog and returned to a more purist stance on rock. It is true that prog after the mid-70s was mostly less progressive than that of the classic era, but they built on what the classics had achieved. You couldn't have had Rush or Marillion without Yes, Genesis and Pink Floyd; you couldn't have had Dream Theater without Rush; etc. I find it funny how the popular music press and TV shows sometimes hail bands as "exciting" or "innovative" who sound just the same as any other "alternative" rock band, and adhere to 3-minute songs, 4/4 metre and trivial lyrics. Many of those "innovators" are praised for doing things that some prog band had already done in the 70s, and sometimes, as Skalla-Grim said, the "innovation" consists merely in adding some strange noises to run-of-the-mill rock music. ------------- ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf "What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes." |
Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 15:41
| There's lots of great music out there. Go out and find it. Or not. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 16:03
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Hi, I think WE have lost our way a lot more than the music itself! So, I guess, based on that logic we can't do ballads and songs anymore because the concept is so old and out of date that it is now too boring! No more baroque rock! No more romantic rock! No more cubistic rock! No more progressive rock! No more classical prog! ... might as well say goodbye music, if that's all we want out of it!  ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Wicket
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 16:17
Extremely valid points, both, this really reminds me of the evolution of classical music. Ever since Gregorian chant in the Middle Ages, music started out in its simplest forms, simple 7 note scales on the white keys of the piano, and ever since then, composers slowly but surely added more dissonance over roughly 900 years, to the point where John Cage wrote a piece of music called 4'33 where the piano player sits on stage in absolute silence, and then walks off after 4 minutes and 33 seconds. Progressive rock followed this trend for the most part in the 60's-70's. It was always the idea of "What's next? What's the next step in music? How radical can we get on the next album?" Before long, sound and accessibility mattered more than musical evolution, and once pop dominated the 80's, it was game over, mang, game over. Now at this point, we can go completely off topic and discuss the state of music in general rather than prog, but to try and keep it on topic and simple, every musical trend is unique. It exists in its own state and time, and can never be duplicated. Bands like Glass Hammer (although a great group of guys) tend to be stuck in the past, in all honesty. Their music doesn't elevate or accelerate the genre or progress of the genre or the like. Getting a bit lost from the novelty of nostalgia is one thing, completely stuck in the past is entirely another. (And thanks for the compliment, lazland, I get lost in this kind of stuff a lot lol) |
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 17:40
You are right about 1983 but most PROG is garbage today. Pretty hard to find a good original band that would fit nicely into the 70s ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 17:54
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perhaps the thread should be retitled... Has prog fan lost his way. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Rick Robson
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 18:08
Oooh.. this man for sure is a huge fan of Mozart hahahhah hilarious man... Mozart said: "the music is not in the notes but in the silence between.", but John Cage went even further and not a single note played  -------------  "Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy." LvB |
Posted By: Rick Robson
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 18:15
I tried, but no way man, really can't answer this question, why don't you go ask it to Phil Collins?  ------------- "Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy." LvB |
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 18:42
This is about right. Prog has evolved, like it should have. Listen to how progressive music is being interpreted today. There is a lot of unique talent out there. You just have to look.
------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 19:08
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 19:21
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Prog didn't lose its way, it lost its audience. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 19:27
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No. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 19:32
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Having lived through the entire 70s prog era, I'd like to point out how competitive all of the bands and musicians were with each other! Bands like ELP, Yes, etc. strove to play faster, longer, to larger crowds and venues. Part of this drive towards excess led to the famous criticisms of prog as "dinosaur music," exemplified by the TFTO tour. The spectacle of Keith Emerson wrestling with his onstage organ, dagger in hand, was worth the price of admission! These days, prog acts are smaller, more regional, and struggling to find a musical path. I think fusion is doing all right, but symphonic seems lost. Glass Hammer do some excellent work, I don't find them to be a Yes clone. Modern prog does not seem to have a fraction of the following that the 70s acts had, those concerts (CTTE, Relayer, BSS, TAAB etc.) were pretty amazing events! The best modern equivalent seems to be the techno-jam events that are held. If some blazing musicians were to join forces with the DJ's art, we might see some new interest. You may not like this, but it certainly has power! Prog must change and adapt. |
Posted By: san0648
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 19:55
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Prog is very alive, it just doesn't look, sound or smell like the prog of the 70's, which is a good thing. Because if it didn't, then it wouldn't be alive at all.
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Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 20:03
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Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 20:27
Yeah, but it takes cash to buy all of the stuff you need to play & record that music. Prog just seems to be hanging on to me.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 20:35
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as people have been saying for years... prog is barely hanging on.. it is dying. In its place though is a very vibrant and creative progressive rock scene... prog fan either ignores it for it doesn't SOUND like prog rock.. or they just don't care. The bands themselves.. they could care less. They don't condsider themselves prog.. and are out there right now playing to music fans.. not prog fans. Face it.. the only people that really care about .. prog rock.. are a couple of hundred Prog Rock forumites.. the rest of the musical world.. is just digging great music. No matter what people call it. let me again.. dig out this .. from a prog musician posted after prog fan stopped supporting the scene and led to the cancellation of Nearfest I'm just going to chime in on the original post, dunno what's been discussed over all these pages. I whole-heartedly applaud every prog festival organizer who has ever walked the earth for their amazing contribution to the entire prog revival. Without people like Rob and Chad and Greg and Steve and George and the rest, a lot of us in prog bands would simply be nowhere. Progfest and NEARfest in particular have been essential to the growth of Scandinavian prog in the 90's and noughties. It just seems that the time has come now for prog to find a new way. The festivals have become, as was mentioned, nostalgia get-togethers. They have been artificial life-lines for stagnant acts, rather than fertile grounds for new, exciting acts. And those organizers who have tried to feature some new blood have been punished by a rather backwards-looking audience. As with NEARfest this year. I don't think blaming either the audience, the organizers or the bands has any virtue. What I think, is that the prog umbrella for too long has tried to shelter two very different things under its shade: On the one hand, the nostalgia scene, which features both the old acts that are still around, like Yes and whatever Italian band you care to mention, and "old-new" bands like Flower Kings and Transatlantic - bands that, though newish, cater mostly to very conservative audiences. On the other hand, the new progressive scene, which could include anything from The Mars Volta to Gösta Berlings Saga, and which really isn't a scene at all, especially considering that many of the bands themselves have no awareness of being part of a "prog scene". These two strands really are extremely different. There's plenty of people with a love for both (including, to a certain extent, myself). But to throw the typical fans of both scenes (the former, ageing, follicle-challenged geezers - bless'em all!, the latter young, dynamic listeners brought up to endless eclecticism and irreverence to genres - bless them too!), might just be too much of a stretch. Maybe it's time for a divorce. Let the geezers have their nostalgia-fests, and let the "new prog" bands get out on the regular rock circuit and compete with any other rock genres out there rather than put them in the geriatric ward of "prog" where the smell of old age will make them unpalatable to both the rock media and the major labels. No disrespect to either!!! :-) And as an a propos: Prog labels that sign new, fresh and exciting bands should be careful how they market and present the bands. Selling them in the traditional way ("washes of mellotrons, recall Eloy in their heyday, rave reception at Bolivia Art Rock Fest (BARF)") will, quite simply, sell them short. It's a new world out there. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: san0648
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 20:45
Actually, with the recent move to self-recording, social media sites such as facebook, youtube, soundcloud, it seems to me more musicians are able to get their music out there. Example, the band Periphery. their founder/guitarists literally just posted some riffs and song ideas on a forum long ago and now its grown into a band due to social media's involvement with available listeners. I think, all in all, we have a more "fast food" culture than ever and looking at an album with 6 songs on it but still filling the disc doesn't appeal to them. And people still look to music to be relative to them. Country artists may same-y but they sing about what just about the entire population experiences. Its not deep, its not complex, but its relevant. And looking at the post above me, it seems my thoughts are shared as well. theres a lot of prog out there, its just not called or discussed as prog. If the geezers still hanging around in the 70's prog music would quit baying about "it just isnt the same" i think the question would be moot. Look at Opeth, prog band, and up until recently, sound nothing like 70's prog.
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Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 23:20
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Prog 1968-natural invention of music with busy, catchy melody coming from jazz, rock influences Prog disappears as Pop, Hard rock and Metal invade. Music becomes fashion because the quality has gone Prog 1988-melody has gone, the fashion music are major influences but apparently it's prog to invent styles of music Answer: No it's not prog to invent. A form of music can't progress. Only songs can progress
------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 23:32
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Posted By: lostrom
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 00:10
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Prog died in 1977. ------------- lostrom |
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 00:18
83. Maybe full on prog disappeared around 77 but lots of good prog related stuff until about 83. Then the horrible drum sounds were born lol ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 00:32
Yeah, and most of it is pretty lame! I mean, I don't hear anyone with near the talent of Bob Fripp on guitar, Rick Wakeman on keys etc. I try, trust me....a friend sent me a CD of a bunch of European prog bands, I wanted to throw it out the car window. It sounded very forced and derivative. Prog has lost its way.
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Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 01:18
Yep cos it can't rely on melody anymore. It can only rely on complexity or experimenting. But this doesn't have the staying power of the great melodies of the past which PROGressed through our ears many times for continuous enjoyment
------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 03:34
A bit early for the Christmas panto, but "Oh no it didn't!" ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: Skalla-Grim
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 04:04
I think "relying on great melodies" is just what progressive rock is not about.
The problem about progressive rock today is not the "smell of old age". It is just not simple enough for large audiences. Prog can be as challenging as classical music but it doesn't have the same reputation. If you want large audiences, the rock media and major labels on your side, you have to simplify your music (or make controversial statements, commit crimes and so on, to catch the awareness of the media). The rock bands who attract large audiences today do so because they're young and good-looking and have simple and catchy music, like in the 60s. You can innovate something on the surface (for example, make-up, costumes, visuals, sound effects and so on), but as soon as you touch the musical structures, you'll start losing the crowd. As far as the evolution of the musical structures in rock music is concerned, we are still in the 70s, with a few exceptions who would never find a large audience today, like some Zeuhl and RIO bands. After Steve Hackett's Genesis Revisited II concert I met a young woman who went there because she likes Hackett's solo work. She did not really like the Genesis music, but not because it was from the 70s, but because it was too complicated. I wish some prog fans would be a little more appreciative towards bands like Glass Hammer who play on such a high level, instead of calling them a mere tribute band. In that aspect, the prog scene seems almost self-destructive to me. |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 05:16
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Posted By: GKR
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 06:13
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Oh, there is a thing that I remembered. A suberb historian (Eric Hobsbawm, if you like history, go check him) once said that to a classic be born, it needsa time to matured. So... we cannot rush our own time and said we dont have any classics. A classic need 30 years of evaluation to born a classic. Examples are numerous: how many albums was destroyed when they were released and now we take them as masterpieces? If we do not wait a little to see in some years, what works will highlight from our times... we'll just keep te comparison game I mention above. But I think the discussion got other ways, now... ------------- - From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. |
Posted By: Disparate Times
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 07:21
| Maybe an overabundance of bands clouds the good things happening right now? What worries me is that there may be a fear of trying something bold. What if big big train made a forty minute instrumental as their next album? How would you react? I would be interested, but i don't see them doing that because of a fear of possibly losing their big big fans (lol) When really they should be thinking about attracting new fans. The way music is sold these days longer songs don't make financial sense, and that's fine musicians can adapt. I just don't see the "heavyweights" doing something as bold as close to the edge, or red queen to gryphon three, ect. |
Posted By: GKR
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 07:28
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In the 1970's there were also lots of bands, thats not the thing. Again, you are just comparing. Have you heard Angra? They made a concept album with "Holy Land", long songs quite experimental and a lavish art cover. People tend not to like it back then because it mix their heavy metal with brazilian instruments "not pure". There are a lot of examples of good bands and good projects. But if you just keep searching for something that sounds like something made in the 1970's you're just being retro, man. ------------- - From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. |
Posted By: GKR
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 07:32
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Here, what do you think of this? https://thewormouroboros.bandcamp.com/album/of-things-that-never-were ------------- - From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. |
Posted By: Disparate Times
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 07:39
I don't want bands to sound like the 70s at all that would be regressive rock. I just want to see the creativity and courage return. I know it's still out there it just seems hard to find. Interesting music will always find an audience, how big of an audience may vary. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 08:33
| If prog lost it's way, as you define it, then it's been wandering aimlessly trough the wilderness since 1983. |
Posted By: Wicket
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 09:40
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Exactly. The prog, as we define it from its early origins, died at the end of the 70's. The prog today is not th e prog from the 60's-70's. Those bands that try to emulate its sounds today are dying. There are other, newer types of prog today, though. They not be dead, but prog, as they always have, lives in the underground music world. Genres never truly die. Disco was claimed dead in like 1978. There's any number of EDM artists who now specialize in disco-influenced tracks, so can we say for certain disco is still dead? It's all debatable. I mean, prog has never really been out in the spotlight of music. Sure, it's always been the playground of evolution and experimentation, and it still is, but it's always remained an underground genre. Sure, there are bands that hit the mainstream, but those are exceptions to the rule. You may say prog is dying, but it's merely hemorrhaging, living underground, exactly where it needs to be. Prog is a genre where those who listen understand the genre and love it. They have infinitely better fanbases than pop stars because more exposure dilutes both the music and the "fans". I don't think prog will ever truly die. We're all fans of the genre. Unless we all drop dead, the bands won't. As long as there are prog fans, there will be prog bands. |
Posted By: GKR
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 09:43
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------------- - From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. |
Posted By: lostrom
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 10:09
Well, one could argue it died already in 1973, at least it reached it's peak in that year. ------------- lostrom |
Posted By: san0648
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 10:25
Not liking current prog does not equal no current prog, though. as for talent like Fripp....theres a ton of players these days with as much, and even more. Seems like theres two camps in this debate. Camp 1 - Prog is what happened in the late 60's/early 70's and died in 1977/1983. Nothing is like the old stuff. Camp 2- Prog is still alive, constantly evolving, and not only sounds different from the early stuff, but SHOULD sound different. Thankfully, i count myself in camp 2. I can't imagine the torment of having to hold everything up to a past light. If people dont like the prog of today, thats fine, but you cant dismiss it as prog or claim its dead simply because you dont like it or it doesnt sound like KC.
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Posted By: san0648
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 10:35
 Guitar World Cover story is about three of the more mainstream prog bands out there today. Prog's not dead. It just sounds different. It evolved. The idea of experimentation, however bands go about it, is now part of the starting point, rather than the end goal. If you dont like current prog, thats fine, but its alive. Its out there.
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Posted By: Wicket
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 11:27
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(I realized that my last few posts were essentially me being slightly off track, and probably a bit too emotional. So I'ma give it one more shot at staying on subject, this time, with not a lot of feeling.) I hear from a lot of my friends that there are no good prog bands today, no bands that provide unusual sounds or display any kind of creativity or pushing any boundaries, and then I rattle off names like Between The Buried And Me, Haken, Dead Letter Circus, The Mars Volta (even though they've disbanded), OSI, Algernon, and then they just stare at me dumbfounded and go "Wow, I guess I gotta check these guys out, I've never heard of any of these guys!". There are bands out there who do push the limits of what's possible, and others who create music that takes prog influences and branches them out to accessible outlets without losing creativity and originality (many of which I just mentioned). The simple matter of fact is this: There are plenty of bands out there who still carry the torch for creativity and experimentation. You just gotta find them, and that may be the hardest part of all. |
Posted By: ginodi
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 12:29
| When I found this site a couple years ago and heard the sound of heaven all over again, and after going on a buying spree to replenish all the Prog music I had to sell during divorce, I would have said the 70's Prog was where it was, is, and will be forever. However, I have heard some interesting modern stuff (and bought it too--most of it RPI, which is my first love). No, it isn't as groundbreaking as the past, but there are still bands trying their best to be innovative as they can. The saddest part is trying to make a living at it and continue. In that sense the glory days have ended, and I have respect for those who keep trying. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 12:32
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A massive amount of for san0648 and Wicket. Thank heavens for people like you! There is so much great music around, just waiting to be discovered and enjoyed - and far too many people who seem to be unable to appreciate it because they are irremediably stuck in the past. I love the classics as much as everyone here (having grown up with them), but when I put on an album recorded in the 21century I don't want to hear a half-baked (albeit technically impeccable) copy of of said classics. //www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/" rel="nofollow - |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 13:03
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Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 13:45
Name just one for me, please.
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Posted By: Skalla-Grim
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 13:59
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I also like Animals as Leaders and The Mars Volta, but I really can't see why people shouldn't enjoy the music of Glass Hammer, or traditional RPI bands. Even if they only listen to that kind of music. Also I think it's unfair to blame musicians to be a "copy" of other musicians just because they play in a similar style, without plagiarism. If you think that way, the whole world of music is full of "copies". |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 14:09
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Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 14:28
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The interesting thing these days is that the aesthetics and sounds of new prog are seeping out into other genres as well. Like here. ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: GKR
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 14:36
On History Channel: has prog created by aliens? ------------- - From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 14:44
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Isn't it just like men not to stop and ask for directions? ------------- 
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Posted By: san0648
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 14:49
I'm actually going to retract that. Recently I have made a decision to not get invovled in "what musicians is better than what other musician" as its all subjective. If you think Fripp is the be all, end all, good for you. I don't. Doesnt mean I dont dig what he does, but others just catch my interest and hold it for longer.
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Posted By: kjprogger
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 16:06
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This has been a very interesting, well thought-out discussion. Sometimes I lose my interest with these threads because somebody throws out a "radical" hook and someone else is all-too-willing to take it. And it deteriorates from there. As for me, of course I love the 70's prog that I cut my teeth on. But there is so much great music being made now that I listen to it far more than I do the old stuff. Partly because I want to support the newbies, and partly because I find new music stimulating. Maybe the Hakens of the world are not progressive in the strictest definition, but if you like 70's prog, how could you not like them? So perhaps we should be declaring our use of Prog in "the strict sense," or "the loose sense," when we have these discussions. |
Posted By: Wicket
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 18:05
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And so we get to that inevitable point in any discussion about music where everyone realizes that it's all subjective to each others' opinions and ideas. If you're a huge fan of the "classic prog", and only the "classic prog", then yes, you'd probably agree with the premise that prog has lost its way. If you're just a fan of prog in general, chances are, you'd probably say it hasn't necessarily lost its way. As the one member pointed out (i forgot your name and I'm too lazy to quote you bro, sorry), it depends what you mean when you say prog has a "way". It has a way, alright, and it's in the very title of the genre it describes. It's progressive, it's supposed to be a moniker of progress in the world of music. It's not designed to sound the same. It's supposed to evolve and mutate and adapt to the trends of the time and lo and behold, it's still doing that. Bands are still changing and morphing music by adapting to different genres, melding and molding different styles and playing music differently. That, (in my opinion), is the definition of prog rock. So if you think prog has lost its way, fine, fair enough, your Yes and your King Crimson will still be waiting for you (and I'm NOT mocking either of them, those are two fantastic bands [in their primes anyway]). If not, congratulations, there's a whole buttload of good music waiting for your ears out there. Damn, this kind of discussion makes my brain hurt. I need a beer. |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 18:29
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Have two! Or three! Did "prog" ever have a way? Did "prog" ever know it was "prog"? Some people love to recreate--to try to reproduce something that they love or that they find challenging or stimulating. That's where they find joy and/or satisfaction. I am so happy that they have this means to finding joy and/or satisfaction. Some people like to feel that they are creating something new and/or different. That's where they find joy and/or satisfaction. I am also so very happy that these people also have a means to finding joy and/or satisfaction. Some people are content to let others create the art that they find joy and/or satisfaction in. Though I believe we all have and need creative outlets, making music is not that outlet for everyone. Thank God for the music makers! They've allowed me so many opportunities to find joy and satisfaction! ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: Rick Robson
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 19:04
Progressive music bands/artists that most people enjoy will be very easy to find since the day they never leave 'the trends of the time' whatever it be, but that day will start the very end of my progressive journey  ------------- "Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy." LvB |
Posted By: schizoidman
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 21:40
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Has prog lost its way? No. It's never been more diverse. ------------- Making the useless useful 24/7. |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 03:13
Pretty sure Kosmische Musik is the work of the Pleiadeans. I mean, the young Klaus Schulze is more or less the first person I envision when I hear the phrase "Nordic Alien". ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 03:57
70's prog bands were new at the time, they were experimental, mixing great musicianship and different music styles inc. rock and classic music to oriental stuff plus great keyboard sounds inc. mellotron. All has been done now thus what you'll get are variations of that now however prog musicians have become maybe even more virtuoso's too and masters in their skills. I do not think prog has gone backwards
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Posted By: Disparate Times
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 06:11
| I hate to use a basketball analogy but I don't hate it enough not to do it anyway. In basketball these days LeBron James is often compared to Michael Jordan, and often shot down as if the comparison is completely laughable despite the fact that he probably will surpass him in most statiscal categories when it is all said and done. The difference is Jordan changed the way people viewed professional athletes in general, LeBron can't achieve that because its already been done. 70's prog changed the way many of us think of music today, so what we are asking of modern bands is seemingly impossible. Whether or not its fair to hold these standards is irrelevant because anyone able to accomplish this should be excited for the challenge. I personally think that we still haven't found a band(s) that could be the proverbial LeBron James. FYI I'm not a LeBron fan. |
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 06:54
I don't see it like that. Today's music doesn't produce anywhere near as many great melodies/compositions. As I keep saying, prog isn't about inventing music. It's a natural invention of music through composer musicians who produced exciting music. There's not much exciting music today ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: Son.of.Tiresias
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 07:28
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Not exactly, "Tormato" from 1978 is one of the best albums Jon Anderson & Co. ever recorded, it rocks better than ever and it has kinda punky attitude and the sound is quite raw actually. I have always loved "Tormato", itīs truly an extraordinary record. Like "Going for the One" a year earlier it is another incredible Yes album and the triumphant return of Rick Wakeman . When I first heard the title song on FM radio back in the day I realized that rock didnīt die after all, despite the lousy and disgusting attitude of the press at the time time hailing punk as a savior for rockīnīroll. It was just ridiculous. In fall of 1977 everything was getting so damn boring but "Going for the One" on FM radio was like a fresh air in your face in a hot summer day. In 1977 Yes came back with vengeance and kicked down punksī ass harder than ever with "Tormato" a year later. Actually it was Rick Wakeman and the other boys as well who saved rockīnīroll. Sadly "Drama" was huge leap backwards but thatīs no surprise because there was no Anderson commanding the ship anymore... and the utterly dull 80īs begun and Prog decreased into dull muzak (grin). But it was meant to be that bands like Megadeth and Metallica who reinvented rock (it was actually so called trash metal which evolved into prog metal shortly after), with a not so little help from Joe Satriani. He was one of the main inventors of progressive metal and was or must have been a huge influence for some guitar dominant "progressive" bands in the mid 80īs. Itīs absolutely true. 2010 saw another triumphant return, the mighty Alphataurus the Dove. That, of course is a different story. The classic Italian Prog and certain new RPI are boldly waving their flags. Thereīs a growing devotion to Prog again and RPI in particular is very alive and kicking. Just donīt miss Alphataurus Live in Bloom 2010, the PROG EXHIBITION 4 DVD set 2010 and Il Tempio delle Clessidre Live in Seoul 2011. These are something else :) |
Posted By: Disparate Times
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 07:33
I agree that there's not much exciting music today but i also feel that music will get back to a level of excellence. Especially with tools like band camp that allow artists to be themselves, complete creative control is a powerful tool and with time i believe that will really start to show. Right now bands that know they've found a home in prog IMO sound like they try too hard to fit the criteria as if there even should be criteria |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 08:56
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Has it ever occurred to some members that anything new and exciting in prog that could be done has, in fact, already been done and this is why new prog sounds so recycled? You can only invent the wheel once. Everything else after that is merely a copy. Jeez, get over it already.
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 09:01
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..but maybe there are areas of prog that have been done that haven't been recycled enough. -------------
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 09:09
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^All things in good time.
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 09:21
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Posted By: Son.of.Tiresias
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 09:50
Youīve got taste  Grazie
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Posted By: Wicket
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 11:52
This is true for the most part. Granted, there are exceptions out there, still creating new ways of expression and evolution to prog, but to play devil's advocate, they are exceptions to the rule, which is a genre being diluted by a bunch of new bands trying to "fit in", essentially. It actually seems to be following the path of EDM. Electronic music was always the home for the underground musician, the guy or gal who wanted a unique outlet of making music and expressing themselves, not caring about fame or light or money or anything. But once songs like "Animals" and "Turn Down For What" starting hitting the mainstream, the genre got flooded by shmucks who though they could make the next big rave track. The result? Crap, lots and lots of crap (which is why I don't listen to as much new electronic music anymore). But back to your point, yes, eventually music will repeat itself once everything has been done, its cyclical. Once complete dissonance was the norm in classical music in the 1950's, with Stockhausen and Varese and Boulez creating horrible, awful sounds. Then guys in the 1960's like La Monte Young, Terry Riley, Steve Reich and Phillip Glass started composing music with tonality again in a very limited spacial setting now commonly known as "minimalism". Was it groundbreaking or original? Hell no, these guys were mocked and ridiculed for essentially taking music back to its roots, but it saved contemporary music, a dying genre even in the 60's, from becoming a completely archaic footnote in history, and now in the 21st century new young and (dare I say) hip composers like Eric Whitacre and Mason Bates are trying to do the impossible. Create new music that pushes the limits of what's possible, and yet is still accessible to the fragile generation of listeners. That frankly is the last frontier for music, in my opinion. Eventually everything that can be done will be done, and that phase may happen multiple times thanks to the continual development of technology and other forms of music making. Hell, I'm a contemporary percussionist and composer, I'm constantly trying to find new ways to make sounds and noises like bowing a cymbal on a timpani head, or hitting a gong and dipping it in and out of a bucket of water. Now, that's all fine and dandy, but personally, the wider the audience you reach with new and unusual sounds, the bigger the effect you create. Even if the music you create isn't original, it's still going to be an original sound. There are countless bands that all make the same kind of music that sound the same, but when you really dissect it, every single song sounds completely different. Prog is eventually going to have to adopt the same strategy contemporary classical music is taking. Once that indestructible wall halting progress has been reached, there may be no other choice but to head backwards and fuse both accessibility and originality. Sound impossible? Not anymore. ------------- "My music is not modern, it is merely badly played" - Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 14:47
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^I admire your expansion on your opinions, but I don't think that's that going to help some people to get over it.
Oh, and improving on the wheel is still not re inventing it.
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Wicket
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 15:38
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Well, that's true, but I wasn't necessarily talking about re-inventing anything, moreso just keeping the genre alive and kicking in general. I also know that some people's opinions will never change, but meh, can't say I didn't try lol. ------------- "My music is not modern, it is merely badly played" - Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 15:40
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^Tru dat.
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Posted By: emigre80
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 15:59
Sure, it's occurred to me many times. That's why I don't bother much with new prog. Or anything that sounds recycled.
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Posted By: Rick Robson
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 16:57
If the world of artistic expression was a finite world.. KAPUT!  , today nothing could be called ART. Let's face it Steve.. the word 'copy' doesn't fit in art, we have the technology for that, any composer who indeed knows how to explore his innate talent does not care whether he is (or not) merely basing his creativity on the works of a predecessor, and couldn't care less about how many damn times he will feel the needing of that.I don't worry and don't really care about this thread's subject, today every one is going to know when something damn exciting and new (or not so new) is just released, there will always be a taste for that whatever the hell it is ------------- "Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy." LvB |
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 17:04
So... Oxxo Xoox (goth zeuhl metal), Orakle (mixing black metal and indie rock), Kayo Dot (mixing everything), Lovely Little Girls (Mixing Zeuhl and avant-garde moments into short catchy compositions)... I don't wanna stretch my mind too much and go on too hard Those are all just copies? I mean, there is definitely some re-invention going on but I certainly hear new and exciting ideas within those bands in moments. I definitely am still finding amazing, fresh, unrecycled, REALLY fun, beautiful, angry songs in my world of music. ------------- http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/ wtf |
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 17:48
There's no way someone will learn to compose great stuff because of this though. Comes naturally through influences. So many old tracks that I play and wonder how they thought of it. Great melodies. Pretty rare to hear something from the last 15 years that does this. Pretty much nothing in the late 80s like this because the recording sounds were so bad then usually ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 19:03
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 19:06
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Rick Robson
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 19:33
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^OK, if you take as copy everything bearing a resemblance to a work already done then there really is nothing new under the sleeve in regard to Prog, Classical, Jazz etc. ------------- "Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy." LvB |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 19:39
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^Frankly, I think it's time to realize that the musical epiphanies that dominated the sixties seventies are past and everything up to now is a pale imitation of that. Not that it's a bad thing, but just the truth. If there's some jaw dropping new revolutionary music developing right, clue me in. I'd love to get my mind blown all over again like it was in the sixties and seventies.
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 20:28
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^ As established in the 'Conditions of Progress' thread, rock itself was still quite young when prog occurred and that allowed huge growth at a good time for it. Any new revolutionary music would likely have to emerge from an almost as new form that has not yet been exhausted; like rock in the mid-60s. The last major musical innovation was probably the minimalism of Reich, Glass, et al., which now ironically echoes through much modern film and commercial music. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 21:34
Quantity produces quality, i.e. more new prog bands around the globe means more good, great and awesome new prog albums released. It means poor albums too, of course, but that global prog audience via Internet, fans' blogs, reviews, discussions at prog forums, prog awards etc is gonna to filtered that. So, a bunch of new bands is always welcome; it couldn't "dilute" (lol) our beloved genre, on contrary - it makes prog bigger, stronger and, consenquently, a better genre. Electronic music was hitting the mainstream way before the tracks you mentioned ( Animals, Turn Down For What). It was happen a long time ago with Jarre (e.g. Jarre's best effort imo, Oxygene, was a radio friendly stuff back in the day) and with the great Vangelis' albums and, especially, his soundtracks. A "strategy" (whatever it means) for contemporary prog rock, if there could be any of already being seen "strategies" that could be suitable to be implemented to contemporary prog due to fact that contemporary, mostly self-released prog is a new story at all, it could be only a "strategy" of World Music, because both World Music and contemporary Prog shares that global "spirit", both of two genres produces these cocktails of styles as a tradition is mixed with a new stuff, both have a rich palette of styles and so on. Contemporary classical music and minimalism what you mentioned, the artists like Steve Reich and Arvo Part, actually meet the wider audience, proggers included, when some of their masterpieces (e.g. Music For 18 Musicians, Tehillim, Tabula Rasa) were produced by Manfred Eicher and released on his, at that time, jazz label ECM Records, in late 70s and early 80s; I doubt that the same "strategy" could be suitable today for contemporary progressive rock music.
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Posted By: Wicket
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 23:55
See, there I disagree, mainly for the very reasons I just specified in my last post. Quantity DOESN'T equal quality. Having 5 chefs working at a restaurant is great, but it doesn't mean they'll add up to cook food like Bobby Flay or Geoffrey Zakarian. Having more of something doesn't necessarily make it better. Sure, you can eat way more chocolate than your parents tell you to, but that doesn't mean it's going to taste better the more you eat. In fact, it'll taste worse, because you've been exposed to so much chocolate, you grow tired of it more easily than if you rationed that chocolate over a longer period of time. Now compare that to a whole bunch of new prog bands (a hypothetical scenario). Great! Except they all sound like tribute bands, and you've grown so sick of them within 10 minutes. It's the same effect. (Alright, so that's not quite a good comparative model, but it should but simple to understand where I'm going with that) I'll give you credit that the boon of social media has grown to benefit the genre (thanks to site like this), but that doesn't necessarily mean that "good" and "bad" prog bands are suddenly going to be "filtered" to our tastes. Secondly, I don't doubt Jarre was mainstream, especially in Europe, but here in the states, not even Darude's Sandstorm (which has now become a cult internet meme, basically) can boast to be more overplayed than "Animals" or "Turn Down For What". I haven't heard Jarre's music being played during a commercial break at a basketball game, or on a commercial for Pepsi, or to accompany the Fast and Furious trailer. THAT"S the mainstream I'm talking about, infiltrating homes of people who DON'T listen to it for entertainment, but know about the song because it has essentially been piped into their homes just from watching tv. And because of that, big room house ("Animals") and trap ("Turn Down For What") have been flooded with copycats all trying to make the next best thing. Certain genres like drum n' bass, however, haven't spawned a "hit mainstream single" yet, and as a result, most of the best tracks are made by regulars, DJ's who have, and still specialize, in DNB. It hasn't seen a huge influx of DJ's within a short period of time trying to mimick a certain song or style (even though there a lot of songs that sound the same, but you can make that arguement with any genre of music). Finally, I'm still confused by the third point you're trying to make (and I don't think it has to do with your grammar). World music, in my definition, is quite simple in its purpose, to convey the emotions and stories of different cultures around the world (be it Latin American or African or Asian sounds, etc). Both prog rock and contemporary (even Romantic) music have taken from world music and incorporated it into their compositions, either to invoke an exoticism (which has ALWAYS sold, and always will continue to sell), or to tell stories. Most contemporary music of the kind is extremely accessible. Benjamin Britten, Claude Debussy, Lou Harrison (when he wasn't banging on pieces of metal all day). If we're talking about a certain "strategy" or "way" that prog (or indeed contemporary music) should head in, the best way I personally believe it should go is again, to walk that fine line between creativity and accessibility. Eric Whitacre has created some lovely, and yet not entirely cheesy concert band pieces, but is also well known for his Virtual Choirs, where Youtubers all over the world record themselves singing his piece, and then combines them all into a, well, a virtual choir. Mason Bates has done the same by incorporating electronics into contemporary music (search Mothership or The B-Sides). These guys could've gone down the same path as Brian Ferneyhough, who to this day idolizes Boulez and Stockhausen and creates pieces so complicated and intricate that 1) they don't make sense, 2) they're impossible to play and 3) they sound like crap. But they haven't, because realizing they'd hit a wall, they instead went in different directions, more successful and yet even more enlightening than Ferneyhoughs'. That's the main reason why constant evolution is eventually going to get us nowhere. Henry Cowell and Leo Ornstein both fought over the idea that both of them "invented" the 'tone cluster' (punch your fist onto a keyboard and you've got it), so both composers furiously churned out pieces that incorporated the tone cluster. Cowell even composed an entire piano concerto dedicated to the cluster! It was a fantastic period of roughly 5 years of tone cluster focus, until both composers realized it wasn't actually a serious method of composing and gave up on it, and their names forever faded into the pages of history (til he was arrested on a morals charge but that's a story for another time). I hope I'm actually making sense and not just rambling, I seriously don't even know what I'm typing anymore. ------------- "My music is not modern, it is merely badly played" - Arnold Schoenberg |