3rd Rd. Classics: Pawn Hearts v. Mirage
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Topic: 3rd Rd. Classics: Pawn Hearts v. Mirage
Posted By: micky
Subject: 3rd Rd. Classics: Pawn Hearts v. Mirage
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 08:37
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for the days heavyweight match.. and to determine the survivor of the cell of death (Bowie, KC, JT, Camel, and VDGG) in the near corner.. the Vegas favorite to not only advance.. but win the whole damn tournament VDGG! and in the far corner.. conqueror of King Crimson.. ahem... Camel can Camel pull the upset... God I hope so... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Replies:
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 08:37
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and first vote for f**king Camel!!! I was denied last round .. but you can not deny the Big Mick forever.. even Micky has to get his fill of Camel. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 08:42
 ... this means war.
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micky wrote:Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 08:42
| The second vote for the magnificent Mirage is mine. |
Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 08:47
Mirage... I didn't need to think about it  |
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 08:51
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I'm afraid Porn Huts will need my vote. ------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: The Bearded Bard
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 08:53
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Mirage for me, if only for familiarity reasons, still haven't gotten around to get myself a copy of Pawn Hearts. -------------  
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Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 09:08
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Camel forever ------------- Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half. My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com |
Posted By: GKR
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 10:16
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Ouch. Thats though. Ouch. Ouch. Camel. Dammit. Yeah, Camel. But I putted VDGG to play now to ask forgiveness. ------------- - From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 10:20
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time to break out some ... McLeg!!!!  give me a M.. give me a I... give me a R... give me a A.. give me a G... give me a E... what does that spell!!!?] f**king Camel!!  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 10:22
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Pawn Hearts. Easy choice. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 11:43
| Mirage |
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 11:57
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You people suck, I'm leaving CamelArchives. ------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: Kirillov
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 12:31
| Tough choice, neither are faves of mine although I love other VDGG and Camel albums. Horn Parts. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 13:19
awesome!!!! ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 13:45
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Not a fan of VDGG, but still keeps me awake Mirage simply bores me ------------- 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 13:49
even Mirage? damnit man.. you need to grab a 2x4 and beat a drunk over the head to the music of Lady Fantasy.. forget the flaky title.. or the lyrics.. or even the voice of Latimer .. the music is far from sleep inducing. Many a non prog fan I have introduced to that album and they love the ripping guitars and general kick-assery. I find 99% of Came boring.. Mirage wasn't one of those..------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 13:57
Mirage is Camel's best as far as real song albums go. Still got a little filler here and there (Earthrise especially), some of the most hilariously cheeseball lyrics in prog. Lady Fantasy is a real gem. Andy Ward on the drums always seems to me to be Camel's standout player other than Latimer. Anyway, this is a 5 star/3 star stomp for me, much as it's not VDGG's best or subtlest work. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 14:04
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yeah... if the fame of Pawn Hearts rests on its epic..as it does flawed as it is IMO.. Mirage's fame should rest on the shoulders of its epic and that smokes and lays waste to VDGG's.. first off.. it is isn't deraied by over-intellectual bullsh*t.. nor by the need to be too clever by half. It is what it is .. a good hard prog kick ass epic. I've often said.. the first half of PoLHK was pure gold.. among the best things I've ever heard in prog.. but the 2nd half? Chirst almight.. damn near ranks among the WORST. Interesting for sure.. but would never be loony enough to rate it is anything approaching great. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Formentera Lady
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 14:11
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Camel. But the VdGG album is also great. ------------- http://theprogressiveweb.blogspot.de" rel="nofollow - Visit me in Second Life to talk about music. |
Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 14:14
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Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 14:27
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Mirage may only be Camel's 4th or 5th best album, but it wipes Pawn Hearts off the planet. If VDGG didn't let Peter Hamill near a microphone, I'd like them a lot more. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 14:29
Same here. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005  |
Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 14:32
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 15:13
The only Camel album I like is Moonmadness, the rest induce me to bed. BTW: I can't forget the voice or the lyrics all are part of the album. -------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 15:15
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dude.. when we finally get to meet and see you.. we party.. and we party to Mirage .. I'll show you a good time man and you sure as hell won't be sleeping hahaha ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 15:48
Make it a third.....Camel for me.  ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 15:48
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Mirage is a nice enough album but Pawn is 10 kinds of awesome, bring me more Hamill! ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 16:17
I'm so glad you turned into a Camel fanboy these days, Mick 
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Posted By: TeleStrat
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 16:24
| With no reflection on the competition, I voted for Camel. |
Posted By: Nightfly
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 18:14
| 2 great albums but Pawn Hearts for me. |
Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 22:47
agreed about Mirage - I'd put a number of Camel albums before it. Peter Hammill is like Ian Anderson has always been to me - small doses only, although I am warming a bit to Mr Anderson lately. Not so Mr Hammill
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Posted By: t d wombat
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 02:35
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Always had to admire Hammill for his complete and under refusal to bow down to the dictates of popular music but for me VDGG were always a group whose albums I'd buy thinking that this time, maybe I'd really get it but I'm afraid I never did. Camel otoh are a group that through this polling schemozzle I've been rewakened me to their charms. Odd charms at times and hey, just a wee bit dated but Mirage definitely comes out on top. Amazingly enough they appear to be walking away with this. (I will refrain from suggesting that they are smoking the opposition). ------------- Andrew B “Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” ― Julius Henry Marx |
Posted By: Kazza3
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 03:41
| But then his eyes will rise and stare through mine... |
Posted By: Imperial Zeppelin
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 05:12
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Pawn Hearts ------------- "Hey there, Dog Man, now I drink from your bowl." |
Posted By: Varon
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 09:21
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Cant believe Pawn Hearts isnt cruching Mirage. I respect Camel but in that case its not even close ------------- Would you catch the final words of mine? Would you catch my words??? |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 09:24
I can't either... I've been here for 11 years and still can not figure out this forum.. but hey... that is why they play the games... it is tightening up.....time again to break out some ... McLeg!!!!  give me a M.. give me a I... give me a R... give me a A.. give me a G... give me a E... what does that spell!!!? f**king Camel!! ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Komandant Shamal
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 11:18
| i voted for "Pawn Hearts". |
Posted By: GKR
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 11:28
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Micky, did you were a Cheerleader? (cant remember the correct name for male cheerleader, but thats because this kind of stuff dont exist in Brazil) ------------- - From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. |
Posted By: ole-the-first
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 11:48
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Pawn Hearts
------------- This night wounds time. |
Posted By: MFP
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 11:59
Seconded
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Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 12:10
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Generator, even though they had better albums. -------------  
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 13:52
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Van Damme Generator!!! ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 13:54
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^ ... bah... |
Posted By: addictedtoprog
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 14:17
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Mirage - Gud album that i enjoy Pawn Hearts - All-time favourite |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 14:55
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bah.....
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 15:03
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All is forgiven. Thank you people. ------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 15:05
Bah indeed... |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 15:06
I thought you left ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: GKR
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 15:07
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Micky, you do know that the "bah" is a common expression of the "Gaucho" (natural from the state I live here in Brazil)? So I kind feel in home in this website with your ways By the way, for you americans understand, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-oOoeIt89AOA/Uo0qTd8kgBI/AAAAAAAAFec/Tm9Ibt4FW4c/s1600/pateta+ga%C3%BAcho.jpg" rel="nofollow - this is a Gaucho . ------------- - From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 15:10
I pretty much agree but love both and find young Peter Hammill's pretentious but honest existentialism charming and and genuinely moving (a couple of years later his writing matured considerably and by 74-75 became one of progs greatest lyricists imo).
This part I don't get. I'm no looney but the progression in this epic is perfection to my ears. An amazing trip from start to finish and it all makes sense. The most spot on thing Julian Cope has ever written: ...“A Plague of Lighthouse keepers” drifts in and out of control for 23-minutes of standing-on-the-verge-of-getting-it-on-ness, occasionally unleashing ridiculous stentorian extremes, then backing right off into passages of near meditational drift. It should also be noted that this lot use Mellotrons 400 and Mark 2 like they SHOULD be used. Sound FX, train choogles, stampeding elephants, bain’t nowt too gimmicky for our boys. If it was guaranteed to invoke the ancient Gods, then they’d even steep the ARP synthesizer in tea. PAWN HEARTS is a masterpiece in the old-fashioned sense of the word, that is: it is a musical blueprint on which to build in the future and has as sensibly structured an anti-structure as you could wish for. It is in turns beautiful, ridiculous, foul, overwhelming, irritating, mutating and magnificent... http://www.headheritage.co.uk/unsung/albumofthemonth/van-de-graaf-generator-pawn-hearts" rel="nofollow - While ca. half the review is as irritating as he usually is . ------------- 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 15:19
oh yeah! I didn't know that ..provincial putz that I am...but you had posted an explanation earlier.  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 15:24
I always did mean to review that album to make my thoughts and feelings on it more clear. Needless to say I do share John McFerrins thoughts on it. Scary stuff... never met the guy.. but almost scary how much I agree with many of his observations. Like ... here is someone who is expressing exactly what I feel.. makes reviewing actually more difficult. Much like my wife. Think very much the same about a great many things musicially. People like him.. and Raff are so much better with words..I'd be afraid of aping their review to do mine. so here is what he said.. pretty much sums up how I feel about the epic and the album http://www.johnmcferrinmusicreviews.org/vdgg.htm#pawnhearts" rel="nofollow - http://www.johnmcferrinmusicreviews.org/vdgg.htm#pawnhearts ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: GKR
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 15:26
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"Peter Hammill's pretentious but honest existentialism" - really really existencialism? Like, with influences of Sartre and stuff? ------------- - From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. |
Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 15:31
Probably not by any direct influence at all - all I've ever heard is that Hammill's love for Heinlein and Philip K. Dick led to him assimilating some of their philosophical themes into his lyrics. -------------
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Posted By: GKR
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 15:34
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Hummmm... No less interesting, anyway. ------------- - From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 15:34
I don't know what writers Peter Hammill was into back then but existentialist thoughts or mindset doesn't have to be influenced by its great thinkers to be existential. We're all allowed to think that way, even analphabets. -------------
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Posted By: GKR
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 15:39
Of course we are allowed, and we are not oblige to read anyone. But because this guys back in the seventies were kinda nerds and existencialism (in the academic way) were fairly well know... I just tried to investigate a little. ------------- - From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 15:45
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^Sure. Didn't intend to come across as rude or anything. Just meant mankind have asked existential questions long before and after the ism. -------------
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Posted By: GKR
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 15:48
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Nice. ------------- - From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 16:06
I'm pretty sure he must have known Sartre and Descartes (which seems an obvious starting point for Man Erg) and so on - he did a philosophy of science degree and quit because there was too much science IIRC and then went and wrote a cod Icelandic saga /slightlycreepyfanknowledge |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 16:21
I love a lot of McFerrin's reviews but on this one the 'Fripp' guitar parts on Man Erg and Plague are all Banton's keys and I'm pretty sure the following breakup was because they were bankrupt after people nicked all their stuff on an otherwise successful Italian tour. The discords are everything for this one and I don't see how you could do songs like VDGG were going for without large amounts of stuff that is going to annoy people who always feel like discord is some sort of sneering joke aimed at them. While I love Lady Fantasy, I don't think anyone could write about it that 'before a sarcastic Utnapishtim saxophone tells you it’s the f**king Epic of Gilgamesh, and those f**king stone things are BROKEN!!!' It's a good song, probably Camel's finest, but without it the world would just be down a good song. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 16:38
Very true. -------------
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Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 16:41
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Pawn Hearts ------------- |
Posted By: Olape
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 17:51
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VDGG, for sure! ------------- 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 17:54
ahhh.. but would would the world be missing without PoLHK... oh yes... a perfect example of one of the real problems with prog rock... especially when the music fails to cover for it.. 'A lot of rock lyricists choose to write about "shallow" things in a dumb way; a lot of great lyricists write about "shallow" things in an intelligent way; a select few have the ability to write about "deep" things in an intelligent way'. give me a good song... without pretense.. it rocks. Hell ya.. spare us the over-intellectual bullsh*t... over something that would be, if it was important enough to register on anyone's radar, example A of why prog rock with aspirations to be something serious... is very hard to do well.. and very easy to do in the most silly and sickening ways. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 18:54
| Camel - Mirage. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 19:01
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^v time to break out more ... McLeg!!!! give me a M.. give me a I... give me a R... give me a A.. give me a G... give me a E... what does that spell!!!?] f**king Camel!! ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: AEProgman
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 21:50
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The cheerleading persuaded me... ------------- 
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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 22:57
| With Pawn Hearts I have half an album that I love and half that I don't care about (I love Man Erg and half of the title track). With Mirage I have a whole album that I love. So Mirage it is. |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: August 10 2015 at 03:43
Pfff Peter Hammill sings about what he's interested in and it's 'pretentious' because it's not dancing or injustice. If you want music with vocals, you can't have twenty minute classical/jazz-tinged experimental rock pieces with lyrics about shallow things. It's just a necessity of the balance of the form that Brain Salad Surgery had to be about space robot wars rather than drinking beer and complaining about Ted Heath. I can't think of any lyrically worthwhile prog stuff that isn't either over-intellectual bullsh*t or complete campy ridiculousness, and I think it's actually a lot harder to write silly stuff that doesn't just seem like you're not brave enough to put your balls on the table while the critics are sharpening their knives. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: August 10 2015 at 04:14
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Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: August 10 2015 at 05:49
Oh, I personally agree with you; I'm just kind of baffled as to what lyrics people who fuss about 'pretentious' prog hope for that'd make sense with 20 minute epics with that range of music. I mean, I know Micky solves this problem by listening to RPI |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: August 10 2015 at 09:18
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Hmm...what I don't get are many of Mick's pairings in these polls. I would pair Ys against Pawn Hearts.........and Caravanserai against Mirage........then we would have somewhat similar album styles to compare. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 10 2015 at 10:03
| I could evaluate the lyrics if I could penetrate the narrator's voice. In Hammill's case, I most emphatically cannot. Eh, just not my cuppa, he's obviously a great singer. I agree with Dellinger's take, I too like Man Erg and maybe half of Lighthouse. The VDGG album I find most palatable is H to He; especially House with No Door is very poignant. |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: August 11 2015 at 03:06
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Camel. ------------- 
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Posted By: Prog Sothoth
Date Posted: August 11 2015 at 09:13
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I like VdGG more than Camel, but Mirage is Camel's best and I swear I like around 7 albums by VdGG more than Pawn Hearts. Voted for Camel.
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Posted By: memowakeman
Date Posted: August 11 2015 at 10:16
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Mirage. ------------- Follow me on twitter @memowakeman |
Posted By: Tuzvihar
Date Posted: August 11 2015 at 14:51
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Mirage. But they're both great. ------------- "Music is much like f**king, but some composers can't climax and others climax too often, leaving themselves and the listener jaded and spent." Charles Bukowski |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: August 11 2015 at 14:59
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Mirage is the best Camel, but not even close to as good as Pawn Hearts. |
Posted By: Andrea Cortese
Date Posted: August 13 2015 at 15:42
I voted for Camel. But my heart is dripping with blood...
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Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: August 13 2015 at 19:11
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VDGG ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: August 14 2015 at 12:51
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Pawn Hearts, man. I mean- come on. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 14 2015 at 15:07
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bah.... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: August 14 2015 at 15:11
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 14 2015 at 15:12
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yeah.. mixed feelings... the better album lost.. the better group won... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: August 14 2015 at 15:19
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I much prefer Camel to VdGG. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 14 2015 at 15:22
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bah... camel sucks on general principal... but in practical reality Mirage rules. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: twalsh
Date Posted: August 14 2015 at 15:36
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Better melody, better guitar better METAL! Camel!! ------------- More heavy prog, please! |
Posted By: symphonicman
Date Posted: August 14 2015 at 22:17
Camel, Mirage.------------- Master James of St. George. Of the fields and the sky. He used to build castles of stone, steel, and blood. But lines get broken down. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: August 15 2015 at 06:22
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Though VDGG are definitely a more interesting band than Camel, Mirage is a better album than Pawn Hearts. Not that my vote will make any difference... |
Posted By: WrytXander
Date Posted: August 15 2015 at 08:01
Exactly. I mean, Mirage is great and everything, but come on. ------------- 20+ prog bands discovered and explored in 3 years, still going strong... |