Brexit
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Topics not related to music
Forum Name: General Polls
Forum Description: Create polls on topics not related to music
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=105977
Printed Date: July 18 2025 at 18:24
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Brexit
Posted By: Matthew _Gill
Subject: Brexit
Date Posted: February 26 2016 at 12:23
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I've just made this poll - http://www.ranker.com/list/should-britain-leave-the-eu-/matthewgill" rel="nofollow - http://www.ranker.com/list/should-britain-leave-the-eu-/matthewgill and voting so far points strongly to people wanting Britain out of the European Union. I wonder how people will vote on Progarchives given the strong Liberal demographic?
------------- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpOoJ0OTLg0&t" rel="nofollow - Click here to see a mind-blowing Flashlight |
Replies:
Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: February 26 2016 at 15:18
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We'd be absolutely mad to consider leaving... ------------- Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: February 26 2016 at 15:55
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Definitely YES! And so should the Netherlands. And those other 26 countries. Rather today than tomorrow, before it's too late. ------------- 
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: February 26 2016 at 16:43
Really? Why? I have not finally made my mind up yet. I must say, though, that the "debate" and, especially, the stance of the stay in camp, leaves me absolutely cold. The scare and fear tactics utilised have shown politics in this country at their very worst. I would not be a bit surprised if our esteemed Secretary of State for Heath issued a warning in coming weeks that voting to leave the EU increases your chances of getting cancer by at least 75%  Pathetic and a disgrace, really.I am not Welsh by birth, but have lived here for over 16 years. I have been a member of Plaid Cymru, the Welsh Nationalists, for a few years now, and am one of the rare people in the party who tend towards a Eurosceptic stance. Actually, the party's position on Europe does not make much sense intellectually. It strikes me as being rather strange to object to an unaccountable, bureaucratic, distant government ruling us from Whitehall (I agree), but then, in the same breath, to want to be ruled from an even more unaccountable, bureaucratic, and distant government in Brussels. Utter nonsense, really, and an issue which may well tip me into leaving the party. The EU, as with most centralised monsters, is in an utter mess. Is UK government any better? Nope. Full of incompetent morons who seem to have very little sense of how to adapt to a rather scary world, and who seem hellbent themselves on creating a centralised state which the likes of Foot and Benn could only really dream of. As I commented in the US election thread, there is a very real and understandable attitude amongst ordinary people that government is not delivering and working for them. This is extremely important, and a growing sense of discontent might, I hope, lead to real change. My grandmother was Maltese, and I qualify for a passport there. We go there on holiday annually, so I am, in fact, very well disposed towards the continent. I am also extremely mindful of the fact that this experiment commenced with a very real and positive wish to put the horrors of two world wars and genocidal acts behind us, and, in that sense, it has been a roaring success. It is, though, utterly in hock to global corporations. It is shockingly run, and disgracefully unaccountable. It is a centralised monstrosity delivering bugger all to the majority of people living in it, with economic, political, and social issues really not giving anyone a sense that it can be turned around. I certainly do not see any real will to change - witness the pathetic reception Cameron received with that renegotiation which was, in all reality, an utter piss take, both of him, and us. I suspect that the British people will, in the end, vote to remain, to keep both the status quo, and because of the ridiculous scaremongering going on. It will not, though, be with anything approaching enthusiasm, and the time when the impact of political drift comes knocking on our doors will not, I fear, be a pleasant one. So. Mad to think about leaving? No, not at all. In fact, it is perfectly rational. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Jared wrote:Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: February 26 2016 at 17:52
Sometimes, I'm really close to wishing England would leave (and we'd take Scotland after a second independance referendum, which will no doubt happen since the Scots are very-much Pro-Europe)... Good friggin' riddance to those Albionites Ever since England has been in the EC, they've done everything to stop Europe from functionning correctly, by always vetoing (One of Europe's weak point is that it needed unanimity, which was doable with the original 6, but at 28....) almost everything. I'm totally against the Cameron blackmail and the special deal that he extorted from Europe. They only want the advantages of Europe (which they systematically ignore to expose in public - to fit their hidden agenda), but none of the inconveniances (which are not nearly as many as Farage says). Is it any surprise that England is not part of the €-zone and Shengen-system?? Not at all, really!!! They're not interested in making Europe work, only creating havoc. With a perfidious friend like The City, doing everything it can to drown the Euro (€) zone, who needs ennemies? Just look how England is making it tough on everyone, and not caring about the nuisance they create to their direct neighbours... Calais and the so-called jungle: why do all these refugees and migrants want to cross the chunnel? Because of a few idiotic and huge gaps in their laws. Create obligatory ID cards, change the rules about asylum and non-expulsion rules and social help, and 99% of those refugees and migrants will suddendly lose all interest in the UK... Easy enough a solution, but the tories and their claim to medieval traditions won't budge. So it's their bloody mess out there in Calais!! And then they blame the rest of Europe for their own inadequaties.     Amazing, uh?? Perfidious is more like it, really!!!!! anyway, enough for tonight  , but be warned I got plenty more!! |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: February 26 2016 at 22:06
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Britain out, Ethiopia in. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 27 2016 at 04:01
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It's not a liberal vs conservative issue IMO. Historicaly the left were the Eurosceptics and the tory right wanted in. There is a lot of misleading and contradictory information coming out of both the in and out camps. There is no impartial information on the subject. For every 'business leader' who says we must stay in, there are equal numbers who say we shoud leave. I may not vote in the referendum, as I, like everyone else is not armed with adequate information to make an informed and non politcally motivated choice. I had been strongly in the OUT camp, but now I'm not sure, probably because I'm falling for the most effectve weapon that the IN brigade have in the armoury, and that is the masses fear of the unknown and inclination to go with the 'devil you know' I think when it comes to the vote we'll be staying in, even if the vote is very close. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: AZF
Date Posted: February 27 2016 at 04:43
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And the Dutch and the Czech Republic are also considering a referendum as a prelude to their exit. http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/646796/Dutch-voters-in-out-EU-referendum-Brexit-contagion-fears-Brussels-Jean-Claude-Juncker With Britons due to decide on June 23 whether to exit the EU or remain tied to Brussels, there are growing signs other voters across the continent are craving their own chance to leave the crisis-stricken union. In https://www.noties.nl/v/get.php?a=peil.nl&s=weekpoll&f=2016-02-21.pdf" rel="nofollow - a new opinion poll in the Netherlands, a majority of voters said they backed the country having its own in/out referendum on EU membership, similar to the UK vote. And Czech Republic prime minister Bohuslav Sobotka has warned if Britons do decide to leave the EU, a ‘Czexit’ could follow. RELATED ARTICLES
In the Dutch poll, more than half (53 per cent) supported an in/out vote with 44 per cent opposed and four per cent unsure. In the survey, conducted by pollster and entrepreneur Maurice de Hond, voters were also asked how they would vote in such an in/out referendum. Only slightly more (44 per cent) wanted to remain in the EU than those who said they would opt to leave the bloc (43 per cent), while 13 per cent said they ‘didn’t know’. Interestingly, more Dutch voters (48 per cent) said they didn’t want Britain to exit the EU this summer than wanted their own country to stay in the bloc. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 27 2016 at 05:11
I don't really understand the Calais situation. They want to demolish the camp and give its inhabitants social housing. To do so I guess they'd be granting them full asylum, and if they were to be issued French passports they could all come to the UK legally anyway if they still wanted to... I don't understand what the problem is. I also don't understand why the refugees would turn down the opportunity of housing in favour of living in a filthy camp in the rain. As for 'The City' Most of those banking cockroaches want the UK to stay in the EU. What does that say, either about the bankers or the EU? ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Matthew _Gill
Date Posted: February 27 2016 at 18:00
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The current systems seems to give people like Anjem Choudary room to thrive and potential economic repercussions aside leaving the EU will make it easier to fight such cancer.
------------- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpOoJ0OTLg0&t" rel="nofollow - Click here to see a mind-blowing Flashlight |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: February 28 2016 at 03:00
Enabling loonies such as Choudary to roam and spread poison at will has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. It has more to do with the attitude that anything criticising such nutters is akin to Islamophobia amongst the idiots responsible for running our country, and those who want to run the country. Those people will still be running the show whether we are in or out. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: February 28 2016 at 03:39
Well, I don't believe for a second that the Northern France authorities want to create decent housing... The Front National is the dominant force since a couple of months ago, so they just want to demolish everything and hope most of the refugees go to Belgium (some already have) And should they indeed provide better housing, the refugees will have to apply for refugee status in France, which they don't want. This would stop them in their quest in having that status in the UK. |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: February 28 2016 at 05:46
I'm in the "undecided" camp. As Andy says, we don't really have the information to know what will happen either way and neither does anyone. It's all guesswork and a load of rhetoric from each side. I will probably wait and see which way the big businesses are going. |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: February 29 2016 at 02:57
Part of the information is easily available: Countries like Switzerland and Norway are doing fine without being part of the EU. Iceland has overcome a financial crisis some years ago without the EU. Fear of the unknown is a strong weapon in the hands of the IN brigade indeed, but a poor counsellor. When I try to visualize the road of the EU, I cannot get the cover of that 1977 Kansas album out of my head... -------------
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: February 29 2016 at 06:34
Yes that's correct but does that neccessarily mean the UK will be the same if we leave?
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Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: February 29 2016 at 07:33
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^Not necessarily of course, but I guess there is a fair chance. If there will be a referendum about an NLexit one day, I'd gladly take the risk . -------------
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 29 2016 at 12:22
The IN mob say that Switzerland and Norway may as well be in the EU as they are bound to numerous trade deals shared by other member states anyway. Although they 'enjoy' the low trade tarifs etc, they don;t have a 'place at the table' and so don't get to vote on anything in the EU parliament. Norawy is also signed up to the Shengan (?) agreement so have open borders to other EU states. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: February 29 2016 at 17:26
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: March 01 2016 at 03:31
I believe even Iceland is in the Schengen agreements. Could be that these small tax-evasion havens (Monte Carlo, Andorra, San Marino, Liechtenstein , etc...) are also in... But most likely tax-evasion havens like Gibraltar, Guernsey, Sark or Man will never be. And TBH, I'm willing to drop those Schengen things if that's what it takes to "save Europe"... Who cares about controls at the borders?? And freedom of workers only profit the wealthy, not the locals...
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Posted By: Cambus741
Date Posted: March 01 2016 at 03:43
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I am aware that the European Union is a far from perfect organisation, but I also believe that it can be a force for good. For centuries we spent a lot of time at war with France or Germany or Spain. Along with NATO, the EU has done a lot to bring the states and peoples of Europe especially Western Europe together. These are people who we do have a lot in common with cultrally. What a terrible waste it would be to throw this away and walk away like a petulant child who isn't getting his own way on everything. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 01 2016 at 04:29
..and EU migration to Switzerland is also proportionally higher than to most other EU states (apparently - I'm not sure if I actually believe that. It's like anything relating to the EU; it depends who you ask )With regard to open borders, freedom of movement of labour etc, it does seem to elude the attention of your average well meaning liberal that the purpose of this policy is to benefit huge corporations by ensuring supplies of cheap labour, driving wages down for everyone ultimately, but many still see this policy as something wholesome and almost philanthropic. When in fact it's just part of the brutal process of globalisation, the aim of which is to consolidate as much wealth in the hands of as few people as possible, not to re-distribute it in some kind of socialist free for all hand out. We will learn the hard way. Eventually. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: March 01 2016 at 04:57
This whole EU thing has gone too far. The EU is rapidly becoming a superstate ruled by bureaucrats who are responsible to none but themselves, seizing the sovereignty of its member states and imposing their often ridiculous rules on their citizens. History has shown throughout the ages that nations want to govern their own affairs independently. This has not changed in the last 70 years, I'm sure. An occupant remains an occupant, even if the occupied nation is part of it. The sooner we've got ourselves rid of this invasive introduced species, the better. One more thing: I'm not an ultra-nationalist. -------------
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: March 01 2016 at 09:42
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It's not just on a peace-keeping PoV that Europe has been prolific... If UK citizens can bring their electrical tools on the continent (because they forced the 50 and 60 Hz harmonisation), it's because of the EC in the 70's. And if the cost of cell phone roaming is now ridiculously low, it's thanks to the EC of the late 00's. There are thousands of things like that!!! Of course this free-trade agreement with the US is certainly NOT a good thing... And the standardisation of tomatoes and apples is not exactly of the most brilliant idea either
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: March 01 2016 at 11:04
Absolutely spot on regarding the flow of cheap labour. It is a policy that is having massive ramifications, all of them detrimental, on working standards and wages across the continent. This is, to me, the main reason why I cannot understand for the life of me the unequivocal backing of the European "project" by so-called socialists and social democrats. The answer, of course, if the project is to continue, is to genuinely harmonise incomes via minimum living standards across the piece. This should be to the highest level, but they will not do this, because of a mixture of corporate interests, and, of course, the fact that the economies are so vastly divergent, which shows the utter folly of the move towards a single currency in the first instance. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 01 2016 at 13:33
I agree. The TTIP is not going to improve things either. Please read this.. http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/i-didn-t-think-ttip-could-get-any-scarier-but-then-i-spoke-to-the-eu-official-in-charge-of-it-a6690591.html" rel="nofollow - EU Trade minister on the TTIP The EU project is a corporate project not a social project. It's sad that so many of us fell for it. It's aim is transparently to reduce living standards overall, and hand governance to corporations. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: March 01 2016 at 14:45
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"Brusselistan" is a failed institution that is loaded up with frustrated ex-communists who
have sabotaged Europe into becoming a social/political and ethnic quagmire for
which the only future solution will be, unfortunately, extreme. With outright idiots like Cohn-Bendit and many others who lament the good old days of state control , the threat of dissent just may force the powers to be to reform their 'commonist' (same crap for everyone) attitude . It does not make sense that in Budapest , the milk comes from elsewhere in Europe, while Hungarian milk is sent to perhaps Estonia. This centralized shoddiness never worked in either leftist or rightist societies , so PRAGMATISM is what needed. Keep Europe together but get rid of the saboteurs (Juncker-Merkel-Freymann) etc.....before its too late! ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: March 01 2016 at 16:36
Thanks for sharing that article, Andy. Fascinating, and this from a newspaper which is just about as far away from a rabid anti-EU rag as it is possible to get, with the possible exception of the dear old Grauniad. As I have said before in this, and other threads, we seem to be sleepwalking into the type of dystopian corporate nightmare which, not that long ago, was regarded as mere science fiction, and, should there be, or maybe when there is, a revolt against this, I really do fear the worst, and I say this as someone who is generally rather upbeat - glass half full, etc. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 02 2016 at 02:40
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^^^ Quite possibly. Even if we don't enter into a hellish 'boot on face' Orwellian dystopia, we will end up at the mercy of corporations, and consequently very poor, but at least we will all be equally poor... Corporate socialism, they will call it! ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |