Court Of The Crimson King vs. Wake Of Poseidon
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Topic: Court Of The Crimson King vs. Wake Of Poseidon
Posted By: Badabec
Subject: Court Of The Crimson King vs. Wake Of Poseidon
Date Posted: May 28 2016 at 06:13
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Greetings to all of you, I would really like to know your opinion on a topic which I have thought about a lot recently. It concerns the first two King Crimson albums "In The Court Of The Crimson King" and "In The Wake Of Poseidon". It always surprises me that many people I talk to seem to prefer In The Court Of The Crimson King to In The Wake of Poseidon. Well, I am of the opposite opinion, so I am prone to say that In The Wake Of Poseidon is kind of the better In The Court Of The Crimson King and I have listed some points below that may explain what makes me think so: 1. In The Wake Of Poseidon works better as an album (for example due to the circumstance that we are guided by the Peace-Themes here), furhtermore because 2. In The Wake Of Poseidon has the better songs (the Peace Themes, Cadence And Cascade [to me one of the best Crimson songs ever], Pictures Of A City, In The Wake Of Poseidon, The Devil's Triangle) 3. because In The Wake Of Poseidon-songs that sound somewhat similiar to tracks from In The Court Of The Crimson King are not mere epigones and tend to sound more "grown up" than their "predecessors" (like "In The Wake Of Poseidon" is far more emotional than "Epitaph", at least to my ears) 4. because In The Wake Of Poseidon has a coherent atmosphere other than In The Court Of The Crimson King. In the end, let me emphasize that this is criticism at the highest stage and that In The Court Of The Crimson King, especially seen in music-historical terms, was a milestone in rock music and that one may hardly doubt that the first Crimson-album is a masterpiece. What do you think? |
Replies:
Posted By: Michael678
Date Posted: May 28 2016 at 06:18
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In the Court IS the better album, BUT I think In the Wake is also among my personal favorites from the group. Top 4, actually, along with Discipline and Larks' Tongues in Aspic. ------------- Progrockdude |
Posted By: ALotOfBottle
Date Posted: May 28 2016 at 06:50
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Hard choice, but I think Court. As a side note, am I the only one, who thinks In The Wake Of Poseidon has an absolutely hideous cover? ------------- Categories strain, crack and sometimes break, under their burden - step out of the space provided. |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: May 28 2016 at 07:20
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In the Wake may be more consistent, but it never rises beyond consistency; whereas the songs that work on In the Court are overwhelming and obviously more memorable. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: May 28 2016 at 07:31
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I like both just about equally. Good albums without being mindblowing (unless you experienced ITCHYCOCK first hand back in 1969). Used to have a preference for Poseidon, but I gather that's down to it being my first Chin Fingsome purchase. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: tboyd1802
Date Posted: May 28 2016 at 08:34
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I too like both. But, have to go with the first release... ------------- He neither drank, smoked, nor rode a bicycle. Living frugally, saving his money, he died early, surrounded by greedy relatives. It was a great lesson to me -- John Barrymore |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: May 28 2016 at 10:06
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Love them both but Poseidon (at least vinyl side 1) is really an attempt to replicate the successful formula of the debut a little too closely...albeit with the Peace theme floating around, but still... Pictures of a City == Schizoid Man (brash sax with fast unison run middle) Cadence == I Talk (calms things down with a mostly acoustic twisted prog ballad) In the Wake == Epitaph (mellotron drenched Lake vocal) ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: May 28 2016 at 10:41
| I heard Poseidon first, and it blew my mind away. When I got to hear Islands, I thought this group was up to something serious, and decide to look for the rest of their albums. When I heard In The Court, I could see how the band had evolved and grown, but still, I really loved their first release, so, for very personal reasons, Poseidon gets my vote, mainly because for me, is the album that open the door to the King Crimson experience. |
Posted By: Badabec
Date Posted: May 28 2016 at 10:53
You may have a point, but I would not compare Cadence And Cascade with I Talk To The Wind becaues both songs have a different colour of sound and Cadence And Cascade takes more a direction towards the Lizard-album (which is my favourite King Crimson album by the way) whereas I Talk To The Wind is - in my opinion - by far not as playful as Cadence And Cascade. This may be another point why I like In The Wake Of Poseidon more than In The Court Of The Crimson King: because it is more playful than its predecessor, I think. |
The.Crimson.King wrote:Posted By: DeadSouls
Date Posted: May 28 2016 at 10:55
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Hard decision for me... I like both of them equally. I like Peace Theme's but they don't make the difference to me. It really depends of my mood, i've been more involved on "In the Wake of Poseidon" lately, but it's still hard, so no vote.  |
Posted By: Pastmaster
Date Posted: May 28 2016 at 11:08
| In the Wake of Poseidon, because I can at least tolerate it unlike The Court. |
Posted By: Wanorak
Date Posted: May 28 2016 at 12:49
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ICOTCK no question. Poseidon is almost the same album. ------------- A GREAT YEAR FOR PROG!!! |
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: May 28 2016 at 17:18
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In the wake for sure. The songs are just better. In the court is outdated and a couple of songs are a bit boring and show the bands lack of experience together. Wake is not a copy. They are the same band so of course they will have a similar sound. To say in the court is better is just wrong imo ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: May 28 2016 at 18:58
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If I could forget what came first it'd probably be a draw. I can enjoy them pretty much equally well when listening to them. But I can't forget that Court came first and was super original whereas Wake was kind of like Court. |
Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: May 28 2016 at 19:48
| In the Court, although Cadence and the title track of in the Wake are both as good or better than their counterparts on in the Court. |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: May 28 2016 at 20:26
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Ik the Wake,... but both are unique albuns, but In wake have more developed ideas and ecplores more fields -------------  
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Posted By: TheLionOfPrague
Date Posted: May 28 2016 at 21:35
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I prefer the debut but not by much. Poseidon is very underrated, I like it more than Lizard, Larks and Islands. ------------- I shook my head and smiled a whisper knowing all about the place |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: May 28 2016 at 22:39
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In the Court, very easily. I do see the resemblance between both albums, like trying to copy their debut, but that's not what really bothers me from Poseidon... it's rather that I prefer every single equivalent song from ItCotCK. - The Peace Themes are just forgetable. Too short, and if I remember well, barely audible. - I really like 21st Century Schizoid Man (though it took be a while to get used to it, and I still prefer later live versions with guitars playing the parts of the Sax), while Pictures of a City is just annoying. - I Talk to the Wind is beautiful, though still not among my favourite Crimson songs, Cadence and Cascade is just boring, and I prefer Lake singing much better than Haskell. - In the Wake of Poseidon is indeed a wonderful song, by far my favourite on the album, but I still like Epitaph much better (my favourite Crimson Song, along with Starless, and the one with the most emotive singing from Crimson, Greg Lake, and one of the most emotive for me in prog and rock)... and I would also compare In the Wake with The Court of the Crimson King... and I do like Court a bit better too. - Cat Food is a nice little song with some really interesting piano, but still not nearly enough to make the album better. - I guess The Devil's Triangle could be related to Moonchild... and in a way to The Court. Related to Moonchild because of the long improvisation/ambient nature of the song... in which case Devil's Triangle may be a bit better, but because of the more traditional and beautiful song format at the beginning of Moonchild I give the nod to that one. And I could relate it to The Court because of the use of Mellotron and that it's got a small reprise from the main theme from Court... but still the song on the debut is much more enjoyable to me, while Devil's Triangle sort of goes into improvisation territory that I don't really enjoy so much (in any case, I much prefer the early live versions of Mars over Devil's Triangle). So, all in all, I find ItCotCK far superior and more enjoyable... easily a 5 star album (despite the long improv section on Moonchild), while In the Wake would be... just about a 3 star album, I guess. |
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: May 28 2016 at 23:37
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Cadence, cat food, Poseidon and pictures are excellent. I only think schizoid is excellent from debut but even that rips off the Beatles a bit with the vocals ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: May 29 2016 at 00:29
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debut ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: May 29 2016 at 00:50
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Court. Poseidon's title track was "meh", but everything else is peachy. I think had they put in "Groon" and Lake's "Lucky Man" on the original release, it would have been on the level as Court. ------------- He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball! |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: May 29 2016 at 03:15
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I believe there is a underlining concept that ties In Court, In Wake and Lizard, loosly but a theme non-the-less -------------
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Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: May 29 2016 at 05:18
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Any similarity between ITCOTCK and ITWOP is largely due to the composition and recording time period - they're very close. Had CDs been around in 1969 much of the material may have been just one album; it's a little like part 1 and 2 (a little like Sgt Pepper and Mystery Tour for me). The music is all part of an era which is hardly a problem; few negatively criticize Mozart piano sonatas for being similar at times. It's really a perception defined by the limitations of the record medium. I would note that personnel changes on Poseidon give it a different, um, for want of a better word, mottled patina. |
Posted By: A_Flower
Date Posted: May 29 2016 at 08:41
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I agree that Posiedon is probably better. I always perfected Pictures of a City over Schizoid Man. On Posiedon, you get the funny piano-happy Cat Food, but on ITCOTCK, your stuck with Moonchild. I love Court, but Poseidon just has better songs and a better tune ------------- User Banned for this Post |
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: May 29 2016 at 10:03
| In the Court of the Crimson Kiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: May 29 2016 at 10:51
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In the Wake of Poseidon. It may not have the historic significance of Itchycock (which may be considered the first sign of maturity of prog), but I think it is in many ways an improvement. ------------- 
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Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: May 29 2016 at 18:22
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I bought ITCOTCK soon after it came out and thought "some of this is interesting", but I hated Moonchild. I bought ITWOP on the day of release on the strength of ITCOTCK, as I figured that they would improve with experience. Instead, I thought "this is pretty mediocre - it's the same music recycled". After a few weeks, I thought "this is pretentious crap" and got rid of it. Since then, I can only listen to Epitaph and the title track from the debut; Moonchild makes me cringe. Not a Crimson fan! ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: May 29 2016 at 21:43
For me the problem is not so much that the songs are similar, but that I just don't like them as much. If they had all been as good as their counterparts from Court I would really love the album and not care if it followed the same pattern. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: May 29 2016 at 21:45
If you like Epitaph and Court of the Crimson King from the debut, you may also like the title track from Poseidon... it wouldn't hurt to give it a try on Youtube or something. Those three make a very nice set of songs with a very similar feel. |
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: May 30 2016 at 03:11
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Pity lake didn't sing on lizard. Would have improved indoor games and and happy family ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: Daveprogger
Date Posted: May 30 2016 at 09:18
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In The Court Of The Crimson King, until recently i only owned Court, i did hear Poseidon, and the other albums, But Court is the best of the two, and the best of all crimson albums, i very happy in the last year i now own every album. |
Posted By: Magnum Vaeltaja
Date Posted: May 30 2016 at 10:51
My vote is Wake by a very large margin.
I consider both to be 5 star albums, but I would have no probably calling Court a high 4. ------------- when i was a kid a doller was worth ten dollers - now a doller couldnt even buy you fifty cents |
Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: May 30 2016 at 12:31
Holy  , I'm not the only one who thought that!  I think some fans do pick up on that, but give it a pass because it changes up the formula a bit. "Schizoid" and "Pictures" have a verse/verse/wacky jazz instrumental/verse/noisy code structure, while "Larks..., Part 1" structure is more complex, which is ambinet/heavy metal/funk/Mahavishnu Orchestra meets Quadrophenia-era Who/violin solo/another heavy metal/ambient. "Book Of Saturday" is written in a different key than "I Talk To The Wind" and "Cadence And Cascade" and it's similarities are not as explicit. As for "Exiles", it... well... okay, it's another ballad, though, interestingly, I think it has more in common with "In The Wake Of Poseidon" than "Epitaph". Oh, and for a bonus, "Easy Money" kind of reminds me of "Ladies Of The Road" and "Talking Drum" is the "Devil's Triangle" of the album, though its sound is less Holst and more, say, Santana. "Larks,... Part 2" is the one track that comes closest to being its own entity.
------------- He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball! |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: May 30 2016 at 22:05
I hadn't thought about the "Larks Tongues" similarity, but even if it follows the same (or similar) mold, it's got very important differences that make it different. Besides, it does have better songs than "Poseidon". "Larks part one" is instrumental and mostly sounds like an improv... it actually doesn't sound anything like either "Schizoid Man" or "Pictures" to me. "Book of Saturday" is... well, it's forgettable, but it doesn't have any flute (which is a key element for "I Talk to the Wind" and "Cadence". "Exiles" may be a ballad as "Epitaph" or "Poseidon" (and "The Court of the Crimson King" too)... but the great difference is that the other 2 are heavy on "Mellotron" sound in a Moody Blues stile, giving them a sound that "Exiles" doesn't have. For me, "Easy Money" sounds closer to "Schizoid Man" than anything else (mostly because of the live versions, which are sort of heavier and I listen to them more often), and has nothing to do with "Moonchild". "Talking Drum" may have a little to do with the "Moonchild" ambient part, or "Devil's Triangle", but really, not a copy at all. And "Larks 2" indeed doesn't seem to have any counterpart at all. Also, the completley different line-up and rather different instruments use make a very big difference in the sound. No sax nor flute; much less use of Mellotron, and when it's used it doesn't take the shining spot as with "Epitaph", "Court", and "Poseidon"; Wetton sounds very different than Lake (and for me much less enjoyable); the inclusion of the violin, of course; and the rhythm section works very different... even more so because of Jamie Muir. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: May 30 2016 at 22:07
| I find it rather curious that on the posts there are mostly people praising Poseidon over Court, but on the votes Court is winning by a very large margin. And this is not the first time I note this sort of things on polls. |
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: May 30 2016 at 22:22
That's because the ones voting court don't really care and just vote it because it came first and is meant to be a landmark album. But listening seriously Poseidon is a high quality album and debut is just good enough to get a pass mark imo ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: May 30 2016 at 22:27
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Once Sinfield, Giles, McDonald and Lake all left, the band were just a bits and pieces band who lost their melody ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: Cookie13
Date Posted: May 31 2016 at 09:34
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In The Court Of The Crimson King.
------------- "Clipside of the pinkeye flight I'm not the percent you think survives I need sanctuary in the pages of this book." Son Et Lumiere - The Mars Volta |
Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: May 31 2016 at 10:00
"Book Of Saturdays", "Exlies", "Larks...,Part 2", "The Night Watch", "Fracture", "Red", "Fallen Angel", "Starless", "Frame By Frame", "Matte Kudasai", "Indiscipline", "Waiting Man", "Man With An Open Heart", "Dig It", "Three Of A Perfect Pair", okay, I'll stop now. ------------- He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball! |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: May 31 2016 at 10:26
You nailed it......too many great songs to name after the so-called 'hey day' of McDonald and Giles and Lake. btw ..I was always a bit disappointed in McDonald and Giles solo album after they left...for two such talented people it was not that great....a good album but it lacked something imo. KC is probably my favorite prog band of all time if push came to shove....the first two albums are both very good imho but I'll go with Court for the title track which has always blown me away with it's construction melody and lyrics....but I really like the title track from Poseidon also and I think the album does get dissed too often. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: May 31 2016 at 22:14
I do care, and I don't like the debut better just because it came first (both came more than 10 years before I was born, and I didn't discover them until over another 25 years later), nor because it's considered a landmark (there are several albums generally highly regarded that I don't really enjoy much), but because I just like it better. Mostly, the Poseidon follows a very similar pattern to Court, and I like every single song better on Court over it's counterpart on Poseidon. Actually, the only song I really like on Poseidon is the title track, and I still like Epitaph so much better. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: June 01 2016 at 04:26
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The debut was a more important and iconic album, but Poseidon is a very strong follow up, and near as damn it as good for my ears. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: addictedtoprog
Date Posted: June 01 2016 at 11:08
| In the court.... |
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: June 01 2016 at 14:22
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Awwwwwwwww ... ------------- "It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno |
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: June 01 2016 at 22:25
What's wrong with cat food, cadence and pictures? Great tracks ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: June 02 2016 at 21:57
Cat Food is nice... mostly because of Keith Tippet's piano, but it's still got something that won't let me put it at the same level of the great ones from the band. "Cadence" is not as good (for me) as "I Talk to the Wind", and this track isn't even among my favourites on "Court"... Haskell's vocals have a lot to do with my not liking that song so much, actually. And "Pictures"... I don't even remember so much how it sounds, for I have not listened to it in a good while, but I just didn't like it... it seemed like a copy of "Schizoid Man", but more chaotic and with less music that I like. |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: April 01 2018 at 15:37
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Court ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Squonk19
Date Posted: April 01 2018 at 15:40
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In the Court of the Crimson King! ------------- “Living in their pools, they soon forget about the sea.” |
Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: April 01 2018 at 18:37
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None ------------- “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” ― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four "Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart |
Posted By: Larkstongue41
Date Posted: April 01 2018 at 18:40
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^ Still actively contributing to discussion, I see. This is getting tiring. Just stop posting if you're not able to. ------------- "Larks' tongues. Wrens' livers. Chaffinch brains. Jaguars' earlobes. Wolf nipple chips. Get 'em while they're hot. They're lovely. Dromedary pretzels, only half a denar." |
Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: April 01 2018 at 18:48
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^^ Still can't take an opinion?? ------------- “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” ― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four "Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart |
Posted By: Larkstongue41
Date Posted: April 01 2018 at 20:45
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Not again.... I will try to make sure that this is the very last time that I respond to your foolery. It makes me angry, doesn't seem to lead to any kind of reflection from your part and then makes me hate myself for losing my temper and wasting energy on stubborn people. Is it even an opinion? You loathe KC, we get it. You wrote dozens of posts asserting that already, dating as back as 4 years ago. Move the f*ck on. Don't you have anything better to do? If you don't like something and feel like letting the world know, make sure you provide some kind of reasoning at least. Otherwise what's the point of it? ------------- "Larks' tongues. Wrens' livers. Chaffinch brains. Jaguars' earlobes. Wolf nipple chips. Get 'em while they're hot. They're lovely. Dromedary pretzels, only half a denar." |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 01 2018 at 21:03
| I chose the debut but I was really tempted to vote for Poseidon since I like that one a lot too and think it's really under rated. The Devil's Triangle in particular is one that has really grown on me. |
Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: April 01 2018 at 21:36
Look at my reviews for further information on my thoughts on the band. You are just too emotional to actually hear anything that I have to say. ------------- “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” ― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four "Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart |
Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: April 01 2018 at 23:11
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Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: April 01 2018 at 23:12
| Really love both, hard to decide, but it´s in the Court. |