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Topic: Haven't Nazi Party done any good work really?Posted By: DamoXt7942
Subject: Haven't Nazi Party done any good work really?
Date Posted: February 05 2017 at 23:12
Sorry if you all get to be in a bad mood but I've read a Japanese book titled "Holocaust" recently.
Holocaust ... written by Kensuke SHIBA (published in Chuko Shinsho Co., LTD
Got quite shocked to notice millions of Jews were killed in various "Extermination Camps" for a short while ... although I already knew tragic events only in Auschwitz Extermination Camp.
Enough is enough, but please let me know whether they have done any work for the world really, if you don't mind.
I will vaporize this thread soon if you feel unpleasant. Thanks.
Replies: Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 00:57
Do you mean just nazi Germany (1933-45), all fascist regimes (Italy and Spain), the Axis powers of WWII (Germany, Italy, Japan, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria) or just (far-right) fascism in general?
The holocaust was not just jewish people, their victims also included ethnic Polish and other Slavs, Soviet citizens and Soviet POWs, Romanis, communists, homosexuals, Freemasons, Jehovah's Witnesses, the mentally and physically disabled, and political opponents; to this we should also add the millions of Chinese, Koreans, Malaysians, Indonesians, Filipinos and Indochinese. Suffice to say if the Axis powers had won the war then the genocide would have increased exponentially to include many other ethnic and political groups throughout the world. It is not inconceivable that the total world death-toll would have been several billion in a very short space of time.
They gave the world the VW Beetle, the autobahn and anti-vivisectionism, (though rather than experiment on animals they used concentration camp victims instead), and if you were white, christian and German you would have had a pretty good standard of life as they improved the German welfare system considerably. But they aren't really a product or consequence of fascism.
------------- What?
Posted By: DamoXt7942
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 01:16
Honest to say, I consider that almost all of Japanese might not have enough knowledge of Nazi Germany or Holocaust so some of them (especially young idols in media) veiled in a swastika military costume get to be a focus of criticism.
Dean wrote:
The holocaust was not just jewish people, their victims also included ethnic Polish and other Slavs, Soviet citizens and Soviet POWs, Romanis, communists, homosexuals, Freemasons, Jehovah's Witnesses, the mentally and physically disabled, and political opponents; to this we should also add the millions of Chinese, Koreans, Malaysians, Indonesians, Filipinos and Indochinese. Suffice to say if the Axis powers had won the war then the genocide would have increased exponentially to include many other ethnic and political groups throughout the world. It is not inconceivable that the total world death-toll would have been several billion in a very short space of time.
Surprised to find their fascism itself via the book.
Dean wrote:
They gave the world the VW Beetle, the autobahn and anti-vivisectionism, (though rather than experiment on animals they used concentration camp victims instead), and if you were white, christian and German you would have had a pretty good standard of life as they improved the German welfare system considerably. But they aren't really a product or consequence of fascism.
Thank you for notification. We Japanese (in one of WWII Axis nations) must learn more and more.
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 01:30
The Nazi party NSDAP was a completely corrupt and inefficient political gang of utter thugs, thieves, perverts and to use their lingo, <Untermensch< or sub-humans. They seized power via blackmail and promising big business a free workforce in order to maximize profits to celestial levels. Organization Todt took idle workers off the streets and into barracks, feeding the war economy that built the autobahn. I suggest you read the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer (who was present at the time the Nazis ruled and thankfully were defeated.
Unfortunately for Japan, the Tojo military junta was equally morally corrupt and encouraged genocide towards countless Chinese, Koreans, Filipinos, Burmese, Indochinese etc....
------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 01:34
It is a grim reality that when one group of people dehumanises another group of people then all humanity is lost.
------------- What?
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 02:06
It is rather disconcerting to witness how some cultures seem to be completely oblivious about certain chapters of history.
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 02:14
tszirmay wrote:
The Nazi party NSDAP was a completely corrupt and inefficient political gang of utter thugs, thieves, perverts and to use their lingo, <Untermensch< or sub-humans. They seized power via blackmail and promising big business a free workforce in order to maximize profits to celestial levels. Organization Todt took idle workers off the streets and into barracks, feeding the war economy that built the autobahn. I suggest you read the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer (who was present at the time the Nazis ruled and thankfully were defeated.
Unfortunately for Japan, the Tojo military junta was equally morally corrupt and encouraged genocide towards countless Chinese, Koreans, Filipinos, Burmese, Indochinese etc....
Another important, but quite chilling account by Shirer is "Berlin Diary". written in the 1930s when he was a foreign correspondent in Germany. I have read The Rise and Fall several times.
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 02:29
Dean wrote:
Do you mean just nazi Germany (1933-45), all fascist regimes (Italy and Spain), the Axis powers of WWII (Germany, Italy, Japan, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria) or just (far-right) fascism in general?
The holocaust was not just jewish people, their victims also included ethnic Polish and other Slavs, Soviet citizens and Soviet POWs, Romanis, communists, homosexuals, Freemasons, Jehovah's Witnesses, the mentally and physically disabled, and political opponents; to this we should also add the millions of Chinese, Koreans, Malaysians, Indonesians, Filipinos and Indochinese. Suffice to say if the Axis powers had won the war then the genocide would have increased exponentially to include many other ethnic and political groups throughout the world. It is not inconceivable that the total world death-toll would have been several billion in a very short space of time.
They gave the world the VW Beetle, the autobahn and anti-vivisectionism, (though rather than experiment on animals they used concentration camp victims instead), and if you were white, christian and German you would have had a pretty good standard of life as they improved the German welfare system considerably. But they aren't really a product or consequence of fascism.
being a Christian was not enough to be safe because they also persecuted the Catholic Church: ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Germany" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Germany )
-------------
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
Posted By: DamoXt7942
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 03:31
tszirmay wrote:
I suggest you read the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer (who was present at the time the Nazis ruled and thankfully were defeated.
Will check it out, thanks Thomas.
tszirmay wrote:
Unfortunately for Japan, the Tojo military junta was equally morally corrupt and encouraged genocide towards countless Chinese, Koreans, Filipinos, Burmese, Indochinese etc....
As for this, I cannot mention any comment here ...
Posted By: DamoXt7942
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 03:35
presdoug wrote:
Another important, but quite chilling account by Shirer is "Berlin Diary". written in the 1930s when he was a foreign correspondent in Germany. I have read The Rise and Fall several times.
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 05:42
BaldJean wrote:
Dean wrote:
... if you were white, christian and German you would have had a pretty good standard of life as they improved the German welfare system considerably.
being a Christian was not enough to be safe because they also persecuted the Catholic Church: ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Germany" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Germany )
Well, yes and no. Between 1934 and 1945 they pretty much limited their attacks to the church and its clergy, not the people who worshipped in those churches. During that period for a German citizen (or any citizen of an occupied country), being a christian was considerably safer than being jewish. Of course had the war continued then the persecution of the (catholic) church would have spread to other churches and then all christians much as the Soviet Union had done between 1917 and 1990 (and probably with the same effect).
/sorry for all the edits - it seems I need to wear my spectacles today.
------------- What?
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 05:48
DamoXt7942 wrote:
Guldbamsen wrote:
It is rather disconcerting to witness how some cultures seem to be completely oblivious about certain chapters of history.
We should directly look to the certain chapters of history ...
Indeed, even if it is a painful experience. History should preferably teach us not to replicate our mistakes, although looking at history up until now it seems as if the teachings have been rather sparsely communicated (some have even been twisted in order to make X nation feel better about themselves and their place on this blue dot in space).
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 05:52
I edit 75% of all my posts I read my (or more oftenly: my phone's) mistakes AFTER I've posted them. Never fails. Yes apparently I am that stupid (consecutively).
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 05:54
Guldbamsen wrote:
DamoXt7942 wrote:
Guldbamsen wrote:
It is rather disconcerting to witness how some cultures seem to be completely oblivious about certain chapters of history.
We should directly look to the certain chapters of history ...
Indeed, even if it is a painful experience. History should preferably teach us not to replicate our mistakes, although looking at history up until now it seems as if the teachings have been rather sparsely communicated (some have even been twisted in order to make X nation feel better about themselves and their place on this blue dot in space).
Unfortunately bad people try to learn from history too, and believe they can improve on it. The problem there is no group ever sees themselves as the bad guys - every zealot believes they are following a just and honourable cause and every terrorist sees themselves as a good person fighting on the side of right.
------------- What?
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 06:13
Dean wrote:
Guldbamsen wrote:
DamoXt7942 wrote:
Guldbamsen wrote:
It is rather disconcerting to witness how some cultures seem to be completely oblivious about certain chapters of history.
We should directly look to the certain chapters of history ...
Indeed, even if it is a painful experience. History should preferably teach us not to replicate our mistakes, although looking at history up until now it seems as if the teachings have been rather sparsely communicated (some have even been twisted in order to make X nation feel better about themselves and their place on this blue dot in space).
Unfortunately bad people try to learn from history too, and believe they can improve on it. The problem there is no group ever sees themselves as the bad guys - every zealot believes they are following a just and honourable cause and every terrorist sees themselves as a good person fighting on the side of right.
Yep...that seems to be the whole problem boiled down to a few words. I recently had this discussion with my father, although we approached it from another angle altogether; Amnesty. A well-meaning organisation that imo (and my dad's) far too often mimic the old crusaders with one unequivocal truth. "Look at those poor children working in sweatshops!!!" Yeah let's stop all that nonsense and throw them out on the street where they can earn a living through prostitution or conversely just starve to death.
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 06:16
Dean wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
Dean wrote:
... if you were white, christian and German you would have had a pretty good standard of life as they improved the German welfare system considerably.
being a Christian was not enough to be safe because they also persecuted the Catholic Church: ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Germany" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Germany )
Well, yes and no. Between 1934 and 1945 they pretty much limited their attacks to the church and its clergy, not the people who worshipped in those churches. During that period for a German citizen (or any citizen of an occupied country), being a christian was considerably safer than being jewish. Of course had the war continued then the persecution of the (catholic) church would have spread to other churches and then all christians much as the Soviet Union had done between 1917 and 1990 (and probably with the same effect).
/sorry for all the edits - it seems I need to wear my spectacles today.
I know, Dean. that's why I wrote "the Catholic Church" and not "people of Catholic faith"
-------------
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 06:54
Yes, millions of Jews were killed not just at Auschwitz but camps all over Europe. In addition, millions more non Jews were killed: Slavs, Poles, homosexuals, communists, the disabled, prisoners of war, enemies of the state, roma, even freemasons and Jehovah's Witnesses. I must admit I have no idea what history is taught in Japan. If it's a topic where the extent of which is unfamiliar I do recommend looking into it all some time. It really is a dark time for humanity, and kind of the ultimate "lesson" of how anger, prejudice, apathy, "going with the flow" and not taking people seriously enough can lead to the worst possible outcome.
One unimaginable, probably even back then BUT it goes to show what desperation, anger and ignorance can do to a mass populace, and bring the worst people to the top.
As for your question, Nazism was basically Fascism in Germany, since you ask a broad question I will take it you mean Fascism. Like any system it was 100% entirely bad. Fascism certainly made segments of the population better off. Most though were not. Economically Fascism was sold as a "middle ground" between Western Capitalism which caused issues and social strife, and Marxist socialism. It was sold as a system for the workers and small business. From what I know large business was basically allowed to run the land while workers all may have had jobs, but they were pretty suppressed and I dont think life for many was improved. The Nazis relied heavily on forced labor as well so I can't say they did much good.
It was all based off dangerous and short run ideas, since ya know 15-20 years after Fascism became an idea all of its practitioners were in rubble.
Nazism was the most extreme version, as they sought the mass extermination of Jews where Italy was far less harsh, though did cave and send Jews off to die, and far as I know Japan did not really do this, and obviously Nazism (and Fascism in general) plunged the world into war with its aggressive nature.
So no, overall can't say it did any good!
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 09:26
JJLehto wrote:
and far as I know Japan did not really do this,
...but alas they did, not in extermination camps but certainly through mass-killings of civilians in occupied countries. Estimates range from 3 to 10 million deaths and countless other war crimes such as human experimentation and forced labour.
------------- What?
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 10:30
Dean wrote:
Guldbamsen wrote:
DamoXt7942 wrote:
Guldbamsen wrote:
It is rather disconcerting to witness how some cultures seem to be completely oblivious about certain chapters of history.
We should directly look to the certain chapters of history ...
Indeed, even if it is a painful experience. History should preferably teach us not to replicate our mistakes, although looking at history up until now it seems as if the teachings have been rather sparsely communicated (some have even been twisted in order to make X nation feel better about themselves and their place on this blue dot in space).
Unfortunately bad people try to learn from history too, and believe they can improve on it. The problem there is no group ever sees themselves as the bad guys - every zealot believes they are following a just and honourable cause and every terrorist sees themselves as a good person fighting on the side of right.
This is indeed, sadly, absolutely true. It is the reason why each and every one of us should be prepared to look at such people who promise the earth in the pursuit of such goals with cynical and untrusting minds and eyes.
Unfortunately, in recent times, the instances of such loonies inflicting themselves and their creeds on the world's populations has increased.
------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 10:50
DamoXt7942 wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
I suggest you read the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer (who was present at the time the Nazis ruled and thankfully were defeated.
Will check it out, thanks Thomas.
tszirmay wrote:
Unfortunately for Japan, the Tojo military junta was equally morally corrupt and encouraged genocide towards countless Chinese, Koreans, Filipinos, Burmese, Indochinese etc....
As for this, I cannot mention any comment here ...
I am curious , why can you not comment? Is this unspoken of in Japan?
------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 11:46
Dean wrote:
[QUOTE=BaldJean]
Well, yes and no. Between 1934 and 1945 they pretty much limited their attacks to the church and its clergy, not the people who worshipped in those churches. During that period for a German citizen (or any citizen of an occupied country), being a christian was considerably safer than being jewish. Of course had the war continued then the persecution of the (catholic) church would have spread to other churches and then all christians much as the Soviet Union had done between 1917 and 1990 (and probably with the same effect).
/sorry for all the edits - it seems I need to wear my spectacles today.
It's simpler than that.
You would be safe if you were white despite your religion...Unless you were a jew.
Of course it was pretty much safer to be Catholic than Jew, but that was because the NAZI party was anti-Semitic.
Being that Eugenio Paccelli was a Nuncio in Germany and loved that country, Hitler believed that he would support the Nazis, but soon found it was a mistake.
Pius XI proclaimed Non Abbiamo Bisogno (Which was written by Eugenio Paccelli), in which he condemned Fascism (1931).
In 1937 followed Mit Brennender Sorge (Also written by Pacelli), which condemned racial persecution.
Hitler believed that when Paccelli was elected, the things would change, but as soon a he was elected, he proclaimed Summi Pontificatus where he attacked racism and totalitarian governments.
The news were not good for Hitler
Jewish Views and News Published in April 1939
His election is a source of huge satisfaction for the jews. Pope Pius XII is a well known friend of the jews and expressed in many occasions his energetic opposition to the persecution of Jews in Italy and Germany.
(Translation done by me from Spanish, not literal)
The Rabbi of Romania spoke publicly in favour of Pius and that's when the harassment against Catholics started.
According to David Dalin (American Rabbi) 6,000 Catholics (Piests, nuns and simple Catholics) were slaughtered for hiding Jews, according to him 860,000 Jews were saved by orders of Pius.
Hitler already knew that the Catholic Church wouldn't support him, so in 1934 he took the Evangelische Deutsche Kirche and named Nazi leader Ludwig Muller as Reichbishop...Of course he had strong opposition from Lutherans who were not Nazis, but it was too late, Hitler had control of his Reich Church.
But as you say, sooner or later, Hitler would get rid of all Christians
-------------
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 12:05
Since a lot of people have already given you information about the past of the Nazi Party, let me talk to you about its present: a relatively mild version is currently running the most powerful nation on Earth.
-------------
Posted By: Upbeat Tango Monday
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 12:33
Germany might have lost the proper war, but the extreme-left nazi ideals live on . Today, most of the allied countries are really close to what the nazi party envisioned (Mussolini followed a somewhat similar line). Franco was a right wing conservative and a religious man. Nothing to do with the other two dictators.
What was the german socialist viewpoint? (aka. main traits of @ssholes)
-German workers were exploited and greedy jews controlled the banks, the media and the arts. Also, "less skilled" immigrants (romanians, poles, gypsies) stole jobs from the germans. -The State must control the economy and human relations in order to stop capitalism from "polluting" Germany -Animals had more rights than some human beigns -Most environmentally conscious regime in history. -Expropriation of private property -Control of the media -Censorship and racism -Prosecution of freethinkers and people who opposed the regime -Love of physical activity and healthy lifestyle -Support of atheism and pagan movements (like wicca) etc.
The difference between the russian and german socialism was that the russians didn't care about animals or the environment, were less educated, technologically inferior, and killed entire families by the millions, whereas the nazis were too forgiving (in comparison, that is). And we know that with a high survival rate, more negative views arise. And that's a problem, since socialism is all about genocide.
Also, racism, while present, wasn't the "main point" of nazism, allied countries were extremelly racist as well. Go watch the ads, or read the testimonies of japanese survivors of american concentration camps. If the axis had won the war, they would have depicted the allies as savage racists. The main focus was expansionism and economy: capitalism and mixed economy against central planning and control. Of couse I like the allies way more.
Today the world is way closer to nazism than libertarianism, to collectivism than individualism, to control than freedom...and I don't like it one bit. I've seen cases of people receiving fines for collecting rainwater and using solar energy...if we keep on going this way, the State might tax sunbathing and breathing. There are many things I'd like to add, but I might get into trouble with today's thought police. Screw national socialism!
------------- Two random guys agreed to shake hands. Just Because. They felt like it, you know. It was an agreement of sorts...a random agreement.
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 12:46
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Dean wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
...
Well, yes and no. Between 1934 and 1945 they pretty much limited their attacks to the church and its clergy, not the people who worshipped in those churches. During that period for a German citizen (or any citizen of an occupied country), being a christian was considerably safer than being jewish. Of course had the war continued then the persecution of the (catholic) church would have spread to other churches and then all christians much as the Soviet Union had done between 1917 and 1990 (and probably with the same effect).
/sorry for all the edits - it seems I need to wear my spectacles today.
It's simpler than that.
You would be safe if you were white despite your religion...Unless you were a jew.
Of course it was pretty much safer to be Catholic than Jew, but that was because the NAZI party was anti-Semitic.
Being that Eugenio Paccelli was a Nuncio in Germany and loved that country, Hitler believed that he would support the Nazis, but soon found it was a mistake.
Pius XI proclaimed Non Abbiamo Bisogno (Which was written by Eugenio Paccelli), in which he condemned Fascism (1931).
In 1937 followed Mit Brennender Sorge (Also written by Pacelli), which condemned racial persecution.
Hitler believed that when Paccelli was elected, the things would change, but as soon a he was elected, he proclaimed Summi Pontificatus where he attacked racism and totalitarian governments.
The news were not good for Hitler
Jewish Views and News Published in April 1939
His election is a source of huge satisfaction for the jews. Pope Pius XII is a well known friend of the jews and expressed in many occasions his energetic opposition to the persecution of Jews in Italy and Germany.
(Translation done by me from Spanish, not literal)
The Rabbi of Romania spoke publicly in favour of Pius and that's when the harassment against Catholics started.
According to David Dalin (American Rabbi) 6,000 Catholics (Piests, nuns and simple Catholics) were slaughtered for hiding Jews, according to him 860,000 Jews were saved by orders of Pius.
Hitler already knew that the Catholic Church wouldn't support him, so in 1934 he took the Evangelische Deutsche Kirche and named Nazi leader Ludwig Muller as Reichbishop...Of course he had strong opposition from Lutherans who were not Nazis, but it was too late, Hitler had control of his Reich Church.
But as you say, sooner or later, Hitler would get rid of all Christians
Well, some of them perhaps, but certainly not "all christians". In the Soviet Union between 12-20 million christians were "got rid of" over a 70 year period, the rest of the christian population (which was most of them - 80% of the population was christian prior to the revolution) simply kept quiet or just wrote "none" on official forms. The same thing would have happened in Germany as even a party of completely deranged lunatics would not wipe-out 80% of their own population.
------------- What?
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 13:24
Upbeat Tango Monday wrote:
extreme-left nazi
On what world is fascism remotely left?
And that's a problem, since socialism is all about genocide.
I am not sure you know anything at all about socialism.
Posted By: Upbeat Tango Monday
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 13:28
I want to add another misconception. The nazis weren't white supremacists, they were all about racial purity. It was socialism for the original inhabitants of Germany (the aryan race). That's why Hitler killed millions of whites, but loved the japanese who were an untainted race. The same when it came to dogs. He loved them, but could not stand albino dogs (white) whom he deemed impure. Peron (Argentina's most loved dictator) was pro-nazi. He had indian blood, the original american blood. My family is 100% white (we are all europeans). The first batch came to Argentina when Peron was in charge. We were considered people who came to this land in order to take jobs from the indians. We had to pay enormous taxes for the govt. to create phantom factories and give salaries and social welfare to those with pure indian blood. Every time I see a white guy like myself calling himself a nazi while in America, be it in Argentina or USA I laugh my ass off. Neo-nazis are really ignorant.
------------- Two random guys agreed to shake hands. Just Because. They felt like it, you know. It was an agreement of sorts...a random agreement.
Posted By: Tillerman88
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 13:38
The T wrote:
... a relatively mild version is currently running the most powerful nation on Earth.
Gosh.....History about to repeat itself again and most of us still replicating the same old mistakes..........
Posted By: Upbeat Tango Monday
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 13:43
A Person wrote:
Upbeat Tango Monday wrote:
extreme-left nazi
On what world is fascism remotely left?
And that's a problem, since socialism is all about genocide.
I am not sure you know anything at all about socialism.
Of course not! I'm really, really dumb and your clever arguments are sound! You've convinced me with your eloquence and intellect. I'll stop being a libertarian and join the left right now!
------------- Two random guys agreed to shake hands. Just Because. They felt like it, you know. It was an agreement of sorts...a random agreement.
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 13:45
Upbeat Tango Monday wrote:
A Person wrote:
Upbeat Tango Monday wrote:
extreme-left nazi
On what world is fascism remotely left?
And that's a problem, since socialism is all about genocide.
I am not sure you know anything at all about socialism.
Of course not! I'm really, really dumb and your clever arguments are sound! You've convinced me with your eloquence and intellect. I'll stop being a libertarian and join the left right now!
>libertarian well there's the problem! no conversation necessary to be honest
Posted By: Upbeat Tango Monday
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 14:10
A Person wrote:
Upbeat Tango Monday wrote:
A Person wrote:
Upbeat Tango Monday wrote:
extreme-left nazi
On what world is fascism remotely left?
And that's a problem, since socialism is all about genocide.
I am not sure you know anything at all about socialism.
Of course not! I'm really, really dumb and your clever arguments are sound! You've convinced me with your eloquence and intellect. I'll stop being a libertarian and join the left right now!
>libertarian well there's the problem! no conversation necessary to be honest
Good! Don't speak with someone outside the ant colony, comrade...I bet socialism will work next time!
------------- Two random guys agreed to shake hands. Just Because. They felt like it, you know. It was an agreement of sorts...a random agreement.
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 14:32
Dean wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Dean wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
...
Well, yes and no. Between 1934 and 1945 they pretty much limited their attacks to the church and its clergy, not the people who worshipped in those churches. During that period for a German citizen (or any citizen of an occupied country), being a christian was considerably safer than being jewish. Of course had the war continued then the persecution of the (catholic) church would have spread to other churches and then all christians much as the Soviet Union had done between 1917 and 1990 (and probably with the same effect).
/sorry for all the edits - it seems I need to wear my spectacles today.
It's simpler than that.
You would be safe if you were white despite your religion...Unless you were a jew.
Of course it was pretty much safer to be Catholic than Jew, but that was because the NAZI party was anti-Semitic.
Being that Eugenio Paccelli was a Nuncio in Germany and loved that country, Hitler believed that he would support the Nazis, but soon found it was a mistake.
Pius XI proclaimed Non Abbiamo Bisogno (Which was written by Eugenio Paccelli), in which he condemned Fascism (1931).
In 1937 followed Mit Brennender Sorge (Also written by Pacelli), which condemned racial persecution.
Hitler believed that when Paccelli was elected, the things would change, but as soon a he was elected, he proclaimed Summi Pontificatus where he attacked racism and totalitarian governments.
The news were not good for Hitler
Jewish Views and News Published in April 1939
His election is a source of huge satisfaction for the jews. Pope Pius XII is a well known friend of the jews and expressed in many occasions his energetic opposition to the persecution of Jews in Italy and Germany.
(Translation done by me from Spanish, not literal)
The Rabbi of Romania spoke publicly in favour of Pius and that's when the harassment against Catholics started.
According to David Dalin (American Rabbi) 6,000 Catholics (Piests, nuns and simple Catholics) were slaughtered for hiding Jews, according to him 860,000 Jews were saved by orders of Pius.
Hitler already knew that the Catholic Church wouldn't support him, so in 1934 he took the Evangelische Deutsche Kirche and named Nazi leader Ludwig Muller as Reichbishop...Of course he had strong opposition from Lutherans who were not Nazis, but it was too late, Hitler had control of his Reich Church.
But as you say, sooner or later, Hitler would get rid of all Christians
Well, some of them perhaps, but certainly not "all christians". In the Soviet Union between 12-20 million christians were "got rid of" over a 70 year period, the rest of the christian population (which was most of them - 80% of the population was christian prior to the revolution) simply kept quiet or just wrote "none" on official forms. The same thing would have happened in Germany as even a party of completely deranged lunatics would not wipe-out 80% of their own population.
you forgot to mention the Reichskonkordat, ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskonkordat" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskonkordat ), Dean, which was signed 4 years before "Mit brennender Sorge". Rolf Hochhuth's play "Der Stellvertreter. Ein christlisches Trauerspiel" ("The Deputy. A Christian Tragedy") from 1963, one of the most important German plays of the 20th century, is all about Pius XI and especially the Reichskonkordat
-------------
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 14:49
Composer Richard Strauss, who had to deal with the Nazis directly, dubbed them, "dilettantes and barbarians".
I am just in the process of reading a bio of German conductor Wilhelm Furtwaengler called "The Devil's Music Master". A controversial figure, condemned by some for staying behind in Germany during the Nazi terror, he, at great personal risk, saved scores of Jews from death, and openly condemned the Nazis. Himmler wanted to arrest Furtwaengler for doing so, but he escaped to Switzerland.
He basically thought, somewhat naievly, that he could fight the Nazis from within, and that politics and art were totally separate from each other.
A courageous man in very difficult times.
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 14:54
Hitler prodded Ferdinand Porsche to design and build the Volkswagen Beetle. That's little compensation, I'm afraid.
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
Posted By: DamoXt7942
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 16:08
tszirmay wrote:
DamoXt7942 wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
I suggest you read the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer (who was present at the time the Nazis ruled and thankfully were defeated.
Will check it out, thanks Thomas.
tszirmay wrote:
Unfortunately for Japan, the Tojo military junta was equally morally corrupt and encouraged genocide towards countless Chinese, Koreans, Filipinos, Burmese, Indochinese etc....
As for this, I cannot mention any comment here ...
I am curious , why can you not comment? Is this unspoken of in Japan?
Pity Japanese Army have killed lots of people all around the world in WWII, I know. It's my sadness.
Almost all of Japanese should know enough, methinks.
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 16:38
BaldJean wrote:
you forgot to mention the Reichskonkordat, ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskonkordat" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskonkordat ), Dean, which was signed 4 years before "Mit brennender Sorge". Rolf Hochhuth's play "Der Stellvertreter. Ein christlisches Trauerspiel" ("The Deputy. A Christian Tragedy") from 1963, one of the most important German plays of the 20th century, is all about Pius XI and especially the Reichskonkordat
Of course that we accept theReichskonkordat,
The Catholic Church knew what was comming, so the Concordat was a need to protect the Catholics in Germany, it has no political meaning, it's just an agreement to recognize te right of the Catholics.
The article 29 was a protection to ethnic minorities:
Article 29
Catholic members of a non-German ethnic minority living within the German Reich, as regards their mother tongue in Church services [sermons], religious education and Church societies, will be accorded no less favourable treatment than that accorded by law and in practice to members of German origin and speech living within the boundaries of the corresponding foreign states.
As a fact the complementary clause, frees priests from participating in a war
a) Students of philosophy and theology at Church institutions who are preparing themselves for the priesthood are to be freed from military service and the preparatory drills for it, except in the case of a general mobilisation.
b) In the case of a general mobilization clerics who are employed in the diocese administration or the military chaplaincy are freed from reporting for duty. This applies to ordinaries, members of the ordinariate, provosts of seminaries and Church residences for seminarians, professors at the seminaries, parish priests, curates, rectors, coadjucators and the clerics who provide a church with worship services on a continuing basis.
c) The remaining clerics, insofar as they are considered suitable, are to join the armed forces of the state in order to devote themselves to pastoral care for the troops under the Church jurisdiction of the military bishops, if they are not inducted into the medical unit.
d) The remaining clergy in sacris or members of orders, who are not yet priests are to be assigned to the medical unit. The same shall apply when possible to the candidates for the priesthood mentioned in a) who have not yet taken their final vows.
This was an intelligent move to avoid supporting the Nazi party in a case of war
There's more, no Catholic could be a NAZI, in 1931 The German Bishop issued a decree of Latae Sententiae Excommunication (automatic with no need of trial), to any Catholic that joined the Nazi Party:
In 1932, the ban was relaxed because workers were forced to join the NAZI party, but the excommunication to leaders and active party members remained intact.
The Concordat is so well done, that continues in force until today where it doesn't collision with the Constitution.
-------------
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 16:43
Dean wrote:
Well, some of them perhaps, but certainly not "all christians". In the Soviet Union between 12-20 million christians were "got rid of" over a 70 year period, the rest of the christian population (which was most of them - 80% of the population was christian prior to the revolution) simply kept quiet or just wrote "none" on official forms. The same thing would have happened in Germany as even a party of completely deranged lunatics would not wipe-out 80% of their own population.
It's a language problem by my part...I'm saying he would declare every Christian Church illegal and get rid of the clergy.
The only lunatic capable of the other solution was Pol Pot.
-------------
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 16:54
BaldJean wrote:
Dean wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Dean wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
...
Well, yes and no. Between 1934 and 1945 they pretty much limited their attacks to the church and its clergy, not the people who worshipped in those churches. During that period for a German citizen (or any citizen of an occupied country), being a christian was considerably safer than being jewish. Of course had the war continued then the persecution of the (catholic) church would have spread to other churches and then all christians much as the Soviet Union had done between 1917 and 1990 (and probably with the same effect).
/sorry for all the edits - it seems I need to wear my spectacles today.
It's simpler than that.
You would be safe if you were white despite your religion...Unless you were a jew.
Of course it was pretty much safer to be Catholic than Jew, but that was because the NAZI party was anti-Semitic.
Being that Eugenio Paccelli was a Nuncio in Germany and loved that country, Hitler believed that he would support the Nazis, but soon found it was a mistake.
Pius XI proclaimed Non Abbiamo Bisogno (Which was written by Eugenio Paccelli), in which he condemned Fascism (1931).
In 1937 followed Mit Brennender Sorge (Also written by Pacelli), which condemned racial persecution.
Hitler believed that when Paccelli was elected, the things would change, but as soon a he was elected, he proclaimed Summi Pontificatus where he attacked racism and totalitarian governments.
The news were not good for Hitler
Jewish Views and News Published in April 1939
His election is a source of huge satisfaction for the jews. Pope Pius XII is a well known friend of the jews and expressed in many occasions his energetic opposition to the persecution of Jews in Italy and Germany.
(Translation done by me from Spanish, not literal)
The Rabbi of Romania spoke publicly in favour of Pius and that's when the harassment against Catholics started.
According to David Dalin (American Rabbi) 6,000 Catholics (Piests, nuns and simple Catholics) were slaughtered for hiding Jews, according to him 860,000 Jews were saved by orders of Pius.
Hitler already knew that the Catholic Church wouldn't support him, so in 1934 he took the Evangelische Deutsche Kirche and named Nazi leader Ludwig Muller as Reichbishop...Of course he had strong opposition from Lutherans who were not Nazis, but it was too late, Hitler had control of his Reich Church.
But as you say, sooner or later, Hitler would get rid of all Christians
Well, some of them perhaps, but certainly not "all christians". In the Soviet Union between 12-20 million christians were "got rid of" over a 70 year period, the rest of the christian population (which was most of them - 80% of the population was christian prior to the revolution) simply kept quiet or just wrote "none" on official forms. The same thing would have happened in Germany as even a party of completely deranged lunatics would not wipe-out 80% of their own population.
you forgot to mention the Reichskonkordat, ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskonkordat" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskonkordat ), Dean, which was signed 4 years before "Mit brennender Sorge". Rolf Hochhuth's play "Der Stellvertreter. Ein christlisches Trauerspiel" ("The Deputy. A Christian Tragedy") from 1963, one of the most important German plays of the 20th century, is all about Pius XI and especially the Reichskonkordat
Well, no I didn't because I had no need to mention it all as it has no bearing on anything I posted.
Iván may have neglected to mention it in his chronological account of the relationship between the catholic church and the German government but that could be because he didn't think it relevant (somehow, don't ask me how), so there you have it, I'm not Iván, he's not me, I'm not drunk but in the morning I'll still be ugly. Sorry, what was the question? Will there be cake?
------------- What?
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 17:01
Dean wrote:
Well, no I didn't because I had no need to mention it all as it has no bearing on anything I posted.
I don't quite agree. you went into the relationship between Church and NS regime, and the Reichskonkordat is a major issue there
-------------
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 17:04
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Dean wrote:
Well, some of them perhaps, but certainly not "all christians". In the Soviet Union between 12-20 million christians were "got rid of" over a 70 year period, the rest of the christian population (which was most of them - 80% of the population was christian prior to the revolution) simply kept quiet or just wrote "none" on official forms. The same thing would have happened in Germany as even a party of completely deranged lunatics would not wipe-out 80% of their own population.
It's a language problem by my part...I'm saying he would declare every Christian Church illegal and get rid of the clergy.
Well, I've already had that confusion between church and congregation explained to me once today so I like to be sure.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
The only lunatic capable of the other solution was Pol Pot.
I suspect it was incompetence at running a country and lunacy that resulted in the Kymer Rouge managing to wipe-out a quarter of its own people.
------------- What?
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 17:04
Does anyone here consider music in general and progressive music for those inclined to be the anti-Nazi program? Me dooz.
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 17:12
BaldJean wrote:
Dean wrote:
Well, no I didn't because I had no need to mention it all as it has no bearing on anything I posted.
I don't quite agree. you went into the relationship between Church and NS regime, and the Reichskonkordat is a major issue there
Well, no I didn't, that was Iván, not me.
------------- What?
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 17:18
oh yes, sorry. in these long conversations with all these indentations it is sometimes difficult to properly correlate who said what
-------------
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
Posted By: Tillerman88
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 17:20
presdoug wrote:
Composer Richard Strauss, who had to deal with the Nazis directly, dubbed them, "dilettantes and barbarians".
I am just in the process of reading a bio of German conductor Wilhelm Furtwaengler called "The Devil's Music Master". A controversial figure, condemned by some for staying behind in Germany during the Nazi terror, he, at great personal risk, saved scores of Jews from death, and openly condemned the Nazis. Himmler wanted to arrest Furtwaengler for doing so, but he escaped to Switzerland.
He basically thought, somewhat naievly, that he could fight the Nazis from within, and that politics and art were totally separate from each other.
A courageous man in very difficult times.
Hitler was a great music lover, Stalin often went to the Bolshoi – get over it! The relationship between music and dictatorship is complex. And at the heart of it is technology.
Let's not forget Napoleon............a kind of generalised self-censorship exists about this man in France......he furthered the emergence of all the racist and pseudo-scientific theories of the 19th century that were subsequently taken up by the Nazis. In fact, Napoleon was a genocidal, perhaps as barbaric as Hitler. And (why not?) inspiration for him.
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 17:23
BaldJean wrote:
I don't quite agree. you went into the relationship between Church and NS regime, and the Reichskonkordat is a major issue there
Not a major issue.
Concordats are very generic, but I seen none in which the Government agrees to keep priests away from the military.
If the Concordat was a problem, it wouldn't remain valid until today.
-------------
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 17:28
Dean wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
and far as I know Japan did not really do this,
...but alas they did, not in extermination camps but certainly through mass-killings of civilians in occupied countries. Estimates range from 3 to 10 million deaths and countless other war crimes such as human experimentation and forced labour.
This is true. In my haste before work I did forget about that. Was thinking about Jews specifically and as you said concentration camps, but that is right there were indeed mass killings. How could I forget Nanking pre dating the war?
Which I guess just furthers the point: No, there is nothing good to come of Fascism (I'm vaguely lumping all hard nationalist militaristic right wing dictatorships in there)
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 17:31
True fascism has never been tried.
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 17:39
Upbeat Tango Monday.
There are some misconceptions, I thinking coming from a bias, you have there.
There's a degree of truth in some of what you say. Fascism did have its roots in Socialism. Mussolini was one, and the idea itself is an offshoot of Socialism. The idea was indeed marketed against Western/liberal/laissez-faire Capitalism as well as Marxist Socialist, this is true. The Nazis called it a "Socialism for the small business" probably not shocking because the found of the original nazi party was a small businessman. And yes it's true "big government" was involved, central planning. Another goal was to eliminate the social strife created by liberal capitalism. Instead of eliminating class and equalizing like the left wanted however,they chose "vertical" integration...stacking all of society into a neat orderly tower that runs smoothly. Like a business or military (coincidence?)
But to call it radical left? That's quite unrealistic. It by no means sought to replace capitalism first of all, it was just a different form, and clearly it was not anti big business. And from what I understand, the workers and small business didn't exactly fare super well under Fascism.
Anyway true leftism doesn't even like central planning. Hell Leon Trotsky of all people said central planning was a bad idea
I can't blame you. For decades we've all been taught socialism/leftism = more more government! China or fascism is the end result, so I get the confusion but please don't say fascism is radical left. That's nonsense
As for some of the other points, can't pick a few things out to lump the whole thing as "left" and while you make a good point that animals may have had more rights than some humans, why is that "left?" Any ideology can subhumanize people, just like any ideology can commit genocide. Why call it all left? Love of healthy and physical lifestyle...leftist? I dont even know what to say about that one Unless all health and good living is some liberal plot?
Also find it hard to believe that racism wasn't one of the 2 main points of it all. Yes, of course most of the era was racist...it's an uncomfortable truth that Vichy France was quite willing to oppress Jews and given them up. Anti semitism was sadly the norm of the time.
But ya know, it was a Fascist state that took it to this extreme, not leftism. I mean...man, one of the first things Hitler did was abolish unions!
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 17:40
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
I don't quite agree. you went into the relationship between Church and NS regime, and the Reichskonkordat is a major issue there
Not a major issue.
Concordats are very generic, but I seen none in which the Government agrees to keep priests away from the military.
If the Concordat was a problem, it wouldn't remain valid until today.
the Reichskonkordat remains most controversial until today. the play by Rolf Hochhuth that I mentioned caused a big scandal when it came out. I would most certainly call that a major issue
-------------
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 18:05
BaldJean wrote:
the Reichskonkordat remains most controversial until today. the play by Rolf Hochhuth that I mentioned caused a big scandal when it came out. I would most certainly call that a major issue
Please Jean Rolf Hochhuth is a Pius XII hater, and his opinions against him allowing jews massacre have been silenced by jews;
- Israel Zolli, Chief Rabbi of Rome, "What the Vatican did will be indelibly and eternally engraved in our hearts...priests and even higher prelates did things that will forever be an honor to Catholicism."
-Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, Isaac Herzog, sent Pius XII a personal message of thanks on February 28, 1944: "The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion which form the very foundation of true civilization, are doing for us unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of Divine Providence in this world."
- Einstein, Time magazine, December 23, 1940, pg. 38: "Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came to Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities were immediately silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but then, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks...Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone had had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly."
- In a March 6, 1939 editorial, "Leadership for Peace," the Palestine Post in Jerusalem said: "Pius XII has clearly shown that he intends to carry on the late Pope's [Pius XI] work for freedom and peace... we remember that he must have had a large part to play in the recent Papal opposition to pernicious race theories and certain aspects of totalitarianism..."
- In 2001 New York Rabbi David Dalin has proposed that Pope Pius XII be proclaimed "Righteous Among the Nations," the highest award given by the state of Israel to persons outstanding in assisting persecuted Jews during World War II: "More than any other 20th century leader, Pius XII fulfilled this Talmudic tradition, when the fate of European Jewry was at stake. No other Pope had been so widely praised by Jews, and they were not mistaken. Their gratitutde, as well as that of the entire generation of holocaust survivors, testifies that Pius XII was, genuinely and profoundly, a righteous gentile.... Pius XII was not Hitler's pope, but the closest Jews had come to having a papal supporter, and at the moment when it mattered most."
- David Herstig concludes his book on the subject thus:
"Those rescued by Pius are today living all over the world. There went to Israel alone from Romania 360,000 to the year 1965."
- The vindication of Pius XII has been established principally by Jewish writers and from Israeli archives. It is now established that the Pope supervised a rescue network which saved 860,000 Jewish lives - more than all the international agencies put together.
- Because of his close contact with Romania's Chief Rabbi Safran throughout the war, Archbishop Cassulo kept himself and the Vatican informed about the condition of Romanian Jews, especially those interned in concentration camps beyond the Dnieper. In 1942 and 1943, prompted by Pope Pius XII, the nuncio visited numbers of camps, taking with him considerable sums of money sent by the Pope for distribution among the prisoners. Following the 1943 visit, the Archbishop presented a ten-point request to Rado Lecca, the government official in charge of Jewish affairs, to alleviate the misery in the camps; by June, 1943, Rabbi Safran was able to report to him that conditions had improved noticeably as a result.
People wanted Pius XII to declare war on Germany.
That would had been stupid, the Vatican is in the center of the Axis, not on a different continent, with no military at all, except 167 Swiss Guards.
In 5 minutes the Nazis would have killed the 167 Swizz Guards, capture the pope, placed a puppet Pope, and killed the 860,000 Jews that survived the Holocaust protected by the Church.
-------------
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 18:21
I'm sorry but i didn't read every single post so forgive me if i am repeating something or seem oblivious to the what has been said before.
My jewish friends have explained to me that one of the major factors in the holocaust had to do with economics.
That means that Christianity which most Germans practiced at the time forbad certain economic practices whereas the Jews did not adhere to. Therefore the Jews gained an upper hand on the economic level which caused social distortion. Thus badness occurred in the form of the usual human jealousy and negative emotion thingeeism. Badness raised its ugly head and lots of people died. Badness ruled. Fortunately we should be thankful for all those who resisted especially the Soviet Union who tore the guts out of the Nazi regime and were instrumental in its demise.
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 18:23
siLLy puPPy wrote:
Fortunately we should be thankful for all those who resisted especially the Soviet Union who tore the guts out of the Nazi regime and were instrumental in its demise.
And that wacky French underground.
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 18:35
Atavachron wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
Fortunately we should be thankful for all those who resisted especially the Soviet Union who tore the guts out of the Nazi regime and were instrumental in its demise.
And that wacky French underground.
Yes, there are many to thank all across the board but the Soviets suffered more loss and did more damage than any other nation at the time. A very sad topic and nice commentary from you all and the current political status only reminds us of these things. I'm very surprised that other people of the world don't know these things such as in Japan~!なんてこった!!!!!
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 18:41
siLLy puPPy wrote:
I'm sorry but i didn't read every single post so forgive me if i am repeating something or seem oblivious to the what has been said before.
My jewish friends have explained to me that one of the major factors in the holocaust had to do with economics.
That means that Christianity which most Germans practiced at the time forbad certain economic practices whereas the Jews did not adhere to. Therefore the Jews gained an upper hand on the economic level which caused social distortion. Thus badness occurred in the form of the usual human jealousy and negative emotion thingeeism. Badness raised its ugly head and lots of people died. Badness ruled. Fortunately we should be thankful for all those who resisted especially the Soviet Union who tore the guts out of the Nazi regime and were instrumental in its demise.
True, this is not anything new and sadly it hasn't gone away. I've seen very reasonable people I know personally (left, right and libertarian) get into borderline dark places when they get into zionism and intl banking cabals.They always stop short of something really horrible but ya know...still a little too close for me.
And yeah that's the f**ked up part of it all. Jews were kind of forced into banking as a natural lifestyle due to religious views and being forbidden from working most jobs. Then "all jews are greedy bankers who own the world and fund our wars! Damn intl zionist banking cabals" etc etc As you said, jealousy (and racism) is a nasty nasty thing.
Absolutely, the Cold War seems to have minimized the impact of the Soviet Union who fought I think 90% of all the Nazi forces at one point, and gave up shocking numbers of lives. The landing in France and that theater is so dramatized and hyped up, to think 8/10 Germany Army deaths happened on the Eastern Front.
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 18:58
^ that solves the mystery then. Religion is to blame. Of course any rigid non-evolving lines of thinking fall into this category. I'm so glad to be a part of the prog commune. We all seem to despise these limitations of human ingenuity.
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 19:12
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
the Reichskonkordat remains most controversial until today. the play by Rolf Hochhuth that I mentioned caused a big scandal when it came out. I would most certainly call that a major issue
Please Jean Rolf Hochhuth is a Pius XII hater, and his opinions against him allowing jews massacre have been silenced by jews;
- Israel Zolli, Chief Rabbi of Rome, "What the Vatican did will be indelibly and eternally engraved in our hearts...priests and even higher prelates did things that will forever be an honor to Catholicism."
-Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, Isaac Herzog, sent Pius XII a personal message of thanks on February 28, 1944: "The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion which form the very foundation of true civilization, are doing for us unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of Divine Providence in this world."
- Einstein, Time magazine, December 23, 1940, pg. 38: "Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came to Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities were immediately silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but then, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks...Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone had had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly."
- In a March 6, 1939 editorial, "Leadership for Peace," the Palestine Post in Jerusalem said: "Pius XII has clearly shown that he intends to carry on the late Pope's [Pius XI] work for freedom and peace... we remember that he must have had a large part to play in the recent Papal opposition to pernicious race theories and certain aspects of totalitarianism..."
- In 2001 New York Rabbi David Dalin has proposed that Pope Pius XII be proclaimed "Righteous Among the Nations," the highest award given by the state of Israel to persons outstanding in assisting persecuted Jews during World War II: "More than any other 20th century leader, Pius XII fulfilled this Talmudic tradition, when the fate of European Jewry was at stake. No other Pope had been so widely praised by Jews, and they were not mistaken. Their gratitutde, as well as that of the entire generation of holocaust survivors, testifies that Pius XII was, genuinely and profoundly, a righteous gentile.... Pius XII was not Hitler's pope, but the closest Jews had come to having a papal supporter, and at the moment when it mattered most."
- David Herstig concludes his book on the subject thus:
"Those rescued by Pius are today living all over the world. There went to Israel alone from Romania 360,000 to the year 1965."
- The vindication of Pius XII has been established principally by Jewish writers and from Israeli archives. It is now established that the Pope supervised a rescue network which saved 860,000 Jewish lives - more than all the international agencies put together.
- Because of his close contact with Romania's Chief Rabbi Safran throughout the war, Archbishop Cassulo kept himself and the Vatican informed about the condition of Romanian Jews, especially those interned in concentration camps beyond the Dnieper. In 1942 and 1943, prompted by Pope Pius XII, the nuncio visited numbers of camps, taking with him considerable sums of money sent by the Pope for distribution among the prisoners. Following the 1943 visit, the Archbishop presented a ten-point request to Rado Lecca, the government official in charge of Jewish affairs, to alleviate the misery in the camps; by June, 1943, Rabbi Safran was able to report to him that conditions had improved noticeably as a result.
People wanted Pius XII to declare war on Germany.
That would had been stupid, the Vatican is in the center of the Axis, not on a different continent, with no military at all, except 167 Swiss Guards.
In 5 minutes the Nazis would have killed the 167 Swizz Guards, capture the pope, placed a puppet Pope, and killed the 860,000 Jews that survived the Holocaust protected by the Church.
Ivan, I know all this. nevertheless the Reichskonkordat remains problematic. I will just quote the first sentence, marking a special passage: Seine Heiligkeit Papst Pius XI. und der Deutsche Reichspräsident, von dem gemeinsamen Wunsche geleitet, die zwischen dem
Heiligen Stuhl und dem Deutschen Reich bestehenden freundschaftlichen Beziehungen zu festigen und zu fördern, gewillt, das
Verhältnis zwischen der katholischen Kirche und dem Staat für den Gesamtbereich des Deutschen Reiches in einer beide Teile
befriedigenden Weise dauernd zu regeln, haben beschlossen, eine feierliche Übereinkunft zu treffen, welche die mit einzelnen
deutschen Ländern abgeschlossenen Konkordate ergänzen und auch für die übrigen Länder eine in den Grundsätzen einheitliche
Behandlung der einschlägigen Fragen sichern soll.
in translation:
His Holiness Pope Pius XI and the President of the German Reich, moved
by a common desire to consolidate and promote the friendly relations
existing between the Holy See and the German Reich, wish to permanently
regulate the relations between the Catholic Church and the state for the
whole territory of the German Reich in a way acceptable to both
parties. They have decided to conclude a solemn agreement, which will
supplement the Concordats already concluded with individual German
states , and will ensure for the remaining states fundamentally uniform treatment of their respective problems.
note: the word "states" refers to the federal states of Germany like for example Bavaria.
I think you will agree that this declaration of friendship is not unproblematic
-------------
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 19:33
BaldJean wrote:
I think you will agree that this declaration of friendship is not unproblematic
It's called diplomatic language, common in each and every international treaty.
Most important is what they say:
- Catholic clergy can't join the party or participate in the war.
- Minorities will be respected.
- Catholic rights will be respected.
THAT'S ALL.
PS: Perú and Ecuador signed the Peace, Friendship and Limits treaty........Do you believe we were friends?
Nope, we hated our guts for decades, each few years we had a small war, that's diplomatic language.
-------------
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 19:41
siLLy puPPy wrote:
Fortunately we should be thankful for all those who resisted especially the Soviet Union who tore the guts out of the Nazi regime and were instrumental in its demise.
Are you talking about the same Soviet Union that in August 23 of 1939, when the crimes had already started signed a treaty of friendship an Mutual Defense with the Reich?
Are you talking about the same Soviet Union who remained faithful to the Molotov-Von Ribbentrop Pact until June 22, 1941 when their interests in eastern Europe collision with the ones of the Nazis?
And only after Hitler betrayed them not accepting a re-negotiation of the spoils of war?
Please.
-------------
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 20:18
^ no. of course i'm not defending any soviet crimes against humanity but it is a proven historical fact that once the whole WW2 was initiated that the soviets did prove to be the major force that led to the nazi demise. to be fair NO country of that era is without blood on its hands and obviously the USA and Japan are included
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 20:24
^ it's the same kind of gratitude we have for Golem in Lord Of The Rings for despite his evil intentions still brought balance to the kingdoms. Reality is a tricky strange bird indeed
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 20:27
JJLehto wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
I'm sorry but i didn't read every single post so forgive me if i am repeating something or seem oblivious to the what has been said before.
My jewish friends have explained to me that one of the major factors in the holocaust had to do with economics.
That means that Christianity which most Germans practiced at the time forbad certain economic practices whereas the Jews did not adhere to. Therefore the Jews gained an upper hand on the economic level which caused social distortion. Thus badness occurred in the form of the usual human jealousy and negative emotion thingeeism. Badness raised its ugly head and lots of people died. Badness ruled. Fortunately we should be thankful for all those who resisted especially the Soviet Union who tore the guts out of the Nazi regime and were instrumental in its demise.
True, this is not anything new and sadly it hasn't gone away. I've seen very reasonable people I know personally (left, right and libertarian) get into borderline dark places when they get into zionism and intl banking cabals.They always stop short of something really horrible but ya know...still a little too close for me.
And yeah that's the f**ked up part of it all. Jews were kind of forced into banking as a natural lifestyle due to religious views and being forbidden from working most jobs. Then "all jews are greedy bankers who own the world and fund our wars! Damn intl zionist banking cabals" etc etc As you said, jealousy (and racism) is a nasty nasty thing.
Absolutely, the Cold War seems to have minimized the impact of the Soviet Union who fought I think 90% of all the Nazi forces at one point, and gave up shocking numbers of lives. The landing in France and that theater is so dramatized and hyped up, to think 8/10 Germany Army deaths happened on the Eastern Front.
The Soviet Union not only played a huge role in beating Nazi Germany, but they also were responsible for beating Japan (it was not, like some people seem to believe, the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki). He may have been a human pile of garbage but I have to give "beating the Nazis" to Stalin (despite his earlier capitulation, which to be fair was not unique of him).
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 20:28
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
I think you will agree that this declaration of friendship is not unproblematic
It's called diplomatic language, common in each and every international treaty.
Most important is what they say:
- Catholic clergy can't join the party or participate in the war.
- Minorities will be respected.
- Catholic rights will be respected.
THAT'S ALL.
PS: Perú and Ecuador signed the Peace, Friendship and Limits treaty........Do you believe we were friends?
Nope, we hated our guts for decades, each few years we had a small war, that's diplomatic language.
Ivan, a pact with the devil remains a pact with the devil: no matter what you gain for it you lose your soul. by signing the Reichskonkordat pope Pius made the Nazis socially acceptable..
I much more admire the attitude of Dietrich Bonhoeffer ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer ) than the attitude of pope Pius
-------------
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 20:38
"Ivan, a pact with the devil remains a pact with the devil: no matter what you gain for it you lose your soul. by signing the Reichskonkordat pope Pius made the Nazis socially acceptable.."
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 21:06
BaldJean wrote:
Ivan, a pact with the devil remains a pact with the devil: no matter what you gain for it you lose your soul. by signing the Reichskonkordat pope Pius made the Nazis socially acceptable..
Not true
- In 1935, UK signed the Anglo-German Naval Agreement with the Nazis.
- Romania signed the German-Romanian Treaty for the Development of Economic Relationsin 1939.
- THE WHOLE WORLD LEGALIZED THE NAZI REGIME IN THE OLYMPIC GAMES IN BERLIN 1936
The Concordat was signed in 1933, wen the NAZI regime was legal for the world
Remember, the NAZIS need no acceptability that the Church could provide in 1933, they were LEGAL and acepote by the whole world.
- USA had embassy in Berlin until 1939
- UK had embassy until 1939 represented by Sir Nevile Meyrick Henderson
- France had embassy in Berlin until 1939 and of course after also.
The NAZIS didn't required any legality, they were legal until 1939
BaldJean wrote:
I much more admire the attitude of Dietrich Bonhoeffer ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer ) than the attitude of pope Pius
- Dietrich Bonhoeffer was one of thousand of pastors easily replaceable, he didn't had 30 million Catholics to care about in Germany.
- Dietrich Bonhoeffer didn't had 100 million Catholics to worry about in occupied territories.
- Dietrich Bonhoeffer didn't saved a single Jewish life, while Pius XII saved 860,000 jews who where his responsibility, thanks to the Reichskonkordat that guaranteed the neutrality of the Vatican.
That's the difference when you have responsibilities and other persons to care about.
Don´t you believe it would had been easier for Pius to leave to Great Britain with his cardinals in 1933 and leave all the Catholics unprotected?
Don't you believe it's more heroic to stay there without protection and hide almost a million Jews while everybody ran and after excommunicating Hitler and all the Nazi leaders?
Yes, it would had been easier, but he stayed and saved millions of Jews, POWS and other persecuted.
If he had insulted Hitler and run to London or USA like De Gaulle, everybody would say "What a brave man"
But he would had left millions of Catholics alone, without the neutrality of the Vatican to hide.
-------------
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 06 2017 at 21:57
Learn something, when you have millions of persons who depend on you, you have tio do what's necessary to help them.
The Concordat guaranteed
a) Respect for the life of the 30 million Catholics in Germany
b) Respect for the life of the 100 million Catholics in the occupied territories
c) Neutrality of the Vatican...Every aviator who fell in Italy was ordered to go to the Vatican.
d) Hundred of thousand of fake baptism certificates for Jewish kids signed by the Pope that were 100% legitimate for any authority.
e) Extra territoriality of every Catholic Church in Germany or occupied territories where people could be hidden.
f) Thousands of fake Seminar certificates that had to be accepted by the Nazis, allowing people who would otherwise been killed to live
Herbert Kappler ( head of German police and security services ( Sicherheitspolizei and SD) in Rome) asked the Pope to let him in the Vatican to arrest Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty, who had saved more POWS han the resistance and to search for jews and enemies of the Reich, The Pope said no, he was threatened, but he defended the neutrality of the Vatican with the Concordat....The Concordat guaranteed the extra territoriality of the Castel Gandolfo Palace, where 5,000 jews were hidden.
That's what his goal and his achievement.
860,000 Jewish people who lived hanks to the Vatican....Nobody did that....With a silly Concordat, he achieved his goal, but with the risk of not knowing which day Hitler woke in bad mopod and occupied the Vatican.....But he stayed there.
Read this and tell me if was not worth
Interview with Historian David Dalin of New York
RIMINI, Italy, AUG. 28, 2001 (ZENIT.org-Avvenire).- What does New York Rabbi David Dalin think of Pope Pius XII?
"The Jewish people had no greater friend in the 20th century," says the historian.
According to Rabbi Dalin, who last Wednesday addressed the meeting organized by the Catholic movement Communion and Liberation, "during the Second World War, Pius XII saved more Jewish lives than any other person, including Raoul Wallenberg and Oskar Schindler."
...
Rabbi Dalin: Today there is a new generation of journalists and experts determined to discredit the documented efforts of Pius XII to save the Jews during the Holocaust. This generation is inspired by Rolf Hochhuth's play "The Vicar," which has no historical value, but levels controversial accusations against this Pope. However, Eugenio Pacelli's detractors ignore or neglect Pinchas Lapide's enlightening study.
[Lapide] was consul general of Israel in Milan and met with many Italian Jews who survived the Holocaust. In his work, Lapide documents how Pius XII worked for the salvation of at least 700,000 from the hands of the Nazis. However, according to another estimate, this figure rises to 860,000.
...
Pius XII was not Hitler's Pope, but the greatest defender that we Jews have ever had, and precisely at the time when we needed it.
This new work of historiography should be based in the judgment that his contemporaries made of the efforts, successes and failures of Pius XII, as well as of the way in which the Jews who survived the Holocaust evaluated (or revaluated) his life and influence in the succeeding decades.
Pope Pacelli was righteous among the nations, who must be recognized for having protected and saved hundreds of thousands of Jews. It is difficult to imagine that so many world Jewish leaders, in such different continents, could have been mistaken or confused when it came to praising the Pope's conduct during the War. Their gratitude to Pius XII lasted a long time, and it was genuine and profound.
Zenit - The World Seen From Rome 28. august 2001
-------------
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 07:01
^ great points but even if you sell your soul for the benefit of others, you've still lost it. this stuff will be debated until the end of time. when it comes down to it everyone made mistakes. it was an incomprehensibly awful time to live through
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 07:24
Thinking that priests, just because they are ordained and promise to follow the dictates of their cult and their Fuhrer in Rome, will act different than any other type of human in the face of terror, is absurd.
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 07:28
Surprised by the existence of this thread... and that it was started by an Admin...
Dean wrote:
They gave the world the VW Beetle, the autobahn and anti-vivisectionism, (though rather than experiment on animals they used concentration camp victims instead), and if you were white, christian and German you would have had a pretty good standard of life as they improved the German welfare system considerably. But they aren't really a product or consequence of fascism.
mmmmmmmmmm.... I would think that the best contribution is that Mengele's experiments provided huge progress for modern surgery and medicine in general. At least the atrocities he did were not completely lost... By now, we (medicine) have probably saved many million people more since the death camp than the death camps achieved
Ditto with reaction engine, which are for planes and rockets... but given the huge pollution of this invention, is that "any good" to mankind or our planet?
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 07:36
Sean Trane wrote:
mmmmmmmmmm.... I would think that the best contribution is that Mengele's experiments provided huge progress for modern surgery and medicine in general. At least the atrocities he did were not completely lost... By now, we (medicine) have probably saved many million people more since the death camp than the death camps achieved
Wat... Mengele's experiment didn't accomplish absolutely anything. At best and being very generous we can say that the idea of twin studies was eventually very important in genetics but his experiments didn't ever do anything but subject people to torture.
-------------
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 07:42
http://listverse.com/fact-fiction/history-fact-fiction/" rel="nofollow - HISTORY
The National Socialist German Workers’ Party (Nazi party) is one of the most infamous political systems in the history of the earth, made famous by their severe acts of cruelty and completely inhuman behavior. Despite that, the Nazi government implemented a number of policies which were for the good of their people and those of the future; many of these policies are now implemented by our own governments.
Please note: this list is NOT an endorsement of the Nazi regime which is, clearly, one of the most evil in history – second only to Stalinist Russia. This list hopefully shows that even amidst great evil, the good of man is still able to shine through. This list is an homage to those men and women living in Nazi Germany who were able to make change for good whilst living under a severely corrupt and wrong regime.
10
Banning of Vivisection
Nazi Germany was the first country to ban vivisection in the world, enacting a total ban in April 1933. The measure to ban vivisection was a huge concern and was put forth to the Reichstag as early as 1927. High ranking Nazis such as Hermann Goring, Heinrich Himmler and http://mythverse.com/2011/07/17/healthy-hitler/" rel="nofollow - Adolf Hitler were very concerned about animal conservation, particularly pertaining as to how animals were butchered. Most current laws in Germany, and indeed the world, are derived from the laws put forth by the Nazi Party. This is, obviously, incredibly ironic as while on the one hand they defended the lives of brute animals, whilst on the other hand cruelly slaughtered Catholics, homosexuals, gypsies, and jews.
Hermann Goring, who was established as the Prime Minister of Prussia, had this to say:
“An absolute and permanent ban on vivisection is not only a necessary law to protect animals and to show sympathy with their pain, but it is also a law for humanity itself…. I have therefore announced the immediate prohibition of vivisection and have made the practice a punishable offense in Prussia.
Until such time as punishment is pronounced the culprit shall be lodged in a concentration camp.”
The above picture is a cartoon showing animals saved from vivisection saluting Hermann Goring. The sign in the window says “Vivisection Forbidden”.
When the Nazis came to power in 1933, their concerns not only laid with the people, but with the animals native to Germany. In 1934, a national hunting law was passed to regulate how many animals could be killed per year, and to establish proper ‘hunting seasons’. These hunting laws have now been applied in most western countries.
This law was known as Das Reichsjagdgesetz, the Reich Hunting Law. The Reichstag also footed the bill for education on animal conservation at Primary, Secondary and College levels. Additionally, in 1935, another law was passed, the Reichsnaturschutzgesetz (Reich Nature Protection Act). This law placed several native species on a protection list including the wolf and Eurasian lynx. Additions were added later as to afforestation and the humane slaughter of living fish.
Without this law it is likely some species would have completely disappeared from Germany’s forests.
8
Anti-Tobacco Movement
It is rumored that Adolf Hitler was so opposed to smoking in his later life that he couldn’t stand someone lighting up in the same room, and often felt obligated to object to it as a waste of money. Thus, he began one of the most expensive and effective tobacco movements throughout history. While during the 1930s and 1940s, other anti-tobacco movements failed fantastically in other countries, it was taken seriously in Nazi Germany.
The Nazis banned smoking in restaurants and public transportation systems, citing public health, and severely regulated the advertising of smoking and cigarettes. There was also a high tobacco tax, and the supplies of cigarettes to the Wehrmacht were rationed. Several health organizations in Nazi Germany even began claiming that smoking heightened the risks of miscarriages by pregnant women, now a commonly known fact.
The statistics of annual cigarette consumption per capita as of 1940 had Germany at only 749, while Americans smoked over 3,000.
The picture above says “He does not devour it, it [the cigarette] devours him!”
Nazi Germany had one of the largest public welfare programs in history, based on the philosophy that all Germans should share a standard of living.
One of the most famous of these was the Winter Relief program, where high ranking Nazis and common citizens both took to the streets to collect charity for the unfortunate. This was not only an extremely intelligent propaganda move, but also a ritual to generate general good public feeling toward those in need. Posters urged people to donate rather than give directly to beggars. Joseph Goebbels, himself a high ranking Nazi in control of Radio, Television and Propaganda, often participated in these events.
But how was the cost of this met? Largely from the stealing of belongings from those people considered enemies of the regime. The Nazi government stole immense amounts of money from their population and used it to fund a social welfare scheme that favored select members of society. Modern schemes modeled on this system are funded by taxes that steal from everyone.
Pictured above is a canister used for the Winter Relief Fund effort.
6
The Volkswagen
Literally meaning “People’s Car”, this vehicle was presented as a car that every German citizen could afford to buy. It was based on the advice of Hitler to the designer, saying that it should resemble a beetle. The car was a huge success (it was made available to citizens of the Third Reich through a savings scheme at 990 Reichsmark, about the price of a small motorcycle), but toward the end of the war resources were low and public availability declined. The Volkswagen emerged more as a military vehicle toward the end of the Third Reich.
However this has not stopped it from being one of the most popular vehicles in the world, known for reliability, stylish design (though some might question that!) and ease of use.
5
Autobahn
While not originally conceived by the Nazis, Hitler was an enthusiastic supporter of the idea and pushed for the largest network of roads to be built across Germany. Established as the first freeway system in the world, the autobahn was a revolutionary feat of engineering that forever changed the way humans travel. Thousands of countries have emulated the system Hitler put in place, including America and Britain. It is single handedly the largest network of roadways in the world, with roads stretching all across the country, even to other countries such as Austria.
The construction of this roadway wasn’t only revolutionary in itself, it provided over 100,000 workers with jobs necessary for the economic recovery efforts. It was a goal of the Nazi party to try and bring the country into a sense of unity through the roadway system, and for the most part it was successful. Aircraft was tested on the long, smooth, straight sections of road and Grand Prix racing teams are known to practice on them.
The man who invented rockets as we know them today, Wernher Von Braun, was a member of the Nazi party and commissioned Schutzstaffel Officer. He aided both Germany and the United States in the use of rockets during and after WW2, and eventually became a naturalized U.S. Citizen.
Although he pioneered many areas, including the installation of liquid-fueled rockets in aircraft and orbit to ground missiles, he is best known for his achievements in NASA.
His best achievement there was undoubtedly the development of the Saturn V booster rocket, that helped man to finally touch the moon, in July 1969. Von Braun officially opened the gate to space travel through his innovative inventions…as well as creating one of the most destructive methods of war known to mankind.
3
Innovations in Film
The Nazis were very interested in both film and music as propaganda techniques and essential cultural pillars. The first known magnetic tape recording was of a speech made by Hitler, and Joseph Goebbels pushed for more complicated methods of filming.
For example, the propaganda film ‘Triumph of the Will’, the sequel to the former propaganda film ‘Triumph of the Faith’, is regarded as one of the most important pieces of cinematographic history. The director, Leini Riefenstahl (pictured above) used an astounding thirty film cameras and over one hundred technicians to produce the two hour film. Since Triumph of the Will had an unlimited budget, the latest technologies were used. Cranes and track-rail filming were used, techniques still used today to make a smooth ‘traveling’ effect.
Ultimately, the propaganda films are dead, but the techniques developed at the time are seen regularly in the latest great Hollywood blockbusters.
2
Contributions to Fashion
The Nazi style of uniform was as bold as their style of government. Thick-soled leather boots, slouch hats, cowhide coats, and peak hats were some of the staples in Nazi fashion, as well as muted color tones often in gray, tan and black. The SS Panzer military organization struck fear into the hearts of their adversaries, with black forage caps and leather coats which were later adopted by American rockers. Doc Martens closely resemble the jump boots that many Schutzstaffel officers wore. Look around at any rock, industrial or otherwise ‘edgy’ group and you see small traces of Nazi fashion sense. The American novelist Kurt Vonnegut once described the style as ‘mildly theatrical’.
Additionally, the founder of Adidas, Adolf Dassler (whose nickname was Adi), was a Nazi. He produced shoes for the Wehrmacht during the war, as well was providing American and Nazi athletes with his footwear during the Berlin Olympics. This created national acclaim when Jesse Owens won the sprinting event at the Berlin Olympics wearing Adolf Dassler’s shoes. Adidas is now a multinational company, supplying athletes all over the world with a supply of footwear and sports accessories.
His brother, Rudolf Dassler, was the more ardent Nazi of the two brothers and went on to found another proficient sports company…Puma. Oh – and Hugo Boss was a Nazi who, from 1934, was an official supplier of uniforms to the SA, SS, Hitler Youth, NSKK and other Party organizations (as evidenced in the advertisement above).
1
Medical Advances
The death of ethics from medicine in Nazi Germany was a sinful, reckless, and dangerous decision, leading to untold atrocities; it has created one of the most extensive ethical controversies in history. Through the Nazi use of torture they discovered information that is discretely used by doctors and medical scientists today. For example, the Nazis extensively studied and monitored hypothermia, at Dachau concentration camp, by subjecting victims to severe torture. The Nazis immersed victims in vats of freezing water or left them out in the winter cold, all the while monitoring changes in body temperature, heart rate, muscle responses and urine. These tests were initially performed on volunteer soldiers, but the Nazis were not satisfied that they had all the information they could get and began to test on concentration camp victims. They attempted to formulate methods to bring the bodies back to a safe temperature, including the “Rapid Active Rewarming” technique that seemed to be the most effective method of revival – and is used today in the west. This research could potentially fill a gap in other researchers studying hypothermia.
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 07:46
^Damn, I think after that, we all need to be learning the Horst Wessel lied and go support our local NSDAP affiliate... (for US franchise opportunities information please call the White House ask for Mr. Bannon)
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Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 07:54
^ this is just an article i copied. i'm not necessarily in agreement that they got anything "right." They simply did it first.
Another thing i just discovered is that the Nazis were very influential on the very first recordings of the music industry and helped established 440 hz as standard tuning when research had already proven that 432 hz was more resonant with human biology. Therefore their influence has kept music incongreant with human harmony for decades. While i can't prove this is true i'm in the process of further investigation
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 07:57
The thing is, all of these supposed advances have little to do specifically with the NSDAP. Leni Riefenstahl was extremely important for cinema, yes, but not because of the Nazi Party. She was the talented one. Same with many of these examples where individual talent is for some reason ascribed to the Party.
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Posted By: Upbeat Tango Monday
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 07:59
To JJLehto, who said the following: "But to call it radical left? That's quite unrealistic. It by no means sought to replace capitalism first of all, it was just a different form, and clearly it was not anti big business. And from what I understand, the workers and small business didn't exactly fare super well under Fascism.
Anyway true leftism doesn't even like central planning. Hell Leon Trotsky of all people said central planning was a bad idea. I can't blame you. For decades we've all been taught socialism/leftism = more more government! China or fascism is the end result, so I get the confusion but please don't say fascism is radical left. That's nonsense"
Ok. Let's get started. A different form of what? of capitalism? you are way off! The nazis were radical left, and they've created the footprints of the modern left wing politics around the world. It's not about brute force, or beheading a leader anymore. They've improved the russian formula quite a bit, and it's been copied all around since the end of WWII.
Of course the nazis were FOR big businesses and AGAINST small businesses. That’s called eliminating the middle class by taxation. You should know that’s a marxist idea. You basically destroy small businesses by taxing them way too high. The core of this is eliminating competition, aka. Getting rid of capitalism. As you eliminate businesses and jobs and people become homeless, they turn to welfare and support the very State that left them living under a bridge. Suppose there’s a big company that turns a lot of profit, what you do is tax competition out of business, make a small company struggle, having to raise the prices in order to keep from falling. Now, as you take away lots of money from the small, common middle class family business, you give exemptions and privileges to the big corpo. The big company can afford to lower the prices as the small ones crumble. They take 100% of the market, and in return they pay back the favor. It’s a win-win situation for the State. Once everyone supports you, you just snatch the big corpos who helped you, and you’re settled. That’s how things work today and that’s how the nazis did it. Look for IG Farben, for instance, if you are into monopolies. I’m pretty sure modern politicans wouldn’t take your money away by force in order to give it to General Motors XD LOL Leftism is about central planning, even if they tell you they don’t like it. The idea for them is that until a “new man” emerges, you need the State in order to stop capitalism and private property. When we finally reach that point, you get rid of it and you’ll have achieved communism. The thing is that, as soon as you get rid of the State, people go back to chopping wood in order to make houses and guitars, and boom…there you go, private property again. That’s how life is, and that’s fine. You make guitars, I’m a teacher…I work and I buy one of your cool six-string axes. Free relationship between individuals. For instance: let’s suppose a World Govt. is established and we all receive the same amount of money. 10k for everyone! Equality! As soon as you hand out the money, some would invest it in hammers and tools, some would waste it on alcohol and hookers, some would buy sheep and cows. Since there’s no way of achieving communism because we are not robots, the State is there to stay. That’s why leftism IS and will ALWAYS be about big government. The nazis perfected the way of getting into office.
------------- Two random guys agreed to shake hands. Just Because. They felt like it, you know. It was an agreement of sorts...a random agreement.
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 08:10
^ The Nazis were not Marxist. True they took certain ideas from Marx but taxation was not one of them. In fact the Nazis were in truth the biggest thieves in history as they stole symbols (the swastika is a universal sign in many cultures), they stole philosophies including esoteric mysticism from Tibet and they stole concepts to great success. I have listened to quite a few documentaries claiming that they even fled Germany before the US got involved and set up bases in Antarctica and were the first to set up colonies in space which led to secret space programs that have been going on since. I have listened to hundreds of hours of whistleblower testimonies that claim these things. Do i believe these things? No definitive proof has been laid out but given all the info i've digested, i do have to place these things in my "possibility" files
The National Socialist German Workers’ Party (Nazi party) is one of the most infamous political systems in the history of the earth, made famous by their severe acts of cruelty and completely inhuman behavior. Despite that, the Nazi government implemented a number of policies which were for the good of their people and those of the future; many of these policies are now implemented by our own governments.
Please note: this list is NOT an endorsement of the Nazi regime which is, clearly, one of the most evil in history – second only to Stalinist Russia. This list hopefully shows that even amidst great evil, the good of man is still able to shine through. This list is an homage to those men and women living in Nazi Germany who were able to make change for good whilst living under a severely corrupt and wrong regime.
10
Banning of Vivisection
Nazi Germany was the first country to ban vivisection in the world, enacting a total ban in April 1933. The measure to ban vivisection was a huge concern and was put forth to the Reichstag as early as 1927. High ranking Nazis such as Hermann Goring, Heinrich Himmler and http://mythverse.com/2011/07/17/healthy-hitler/" rel="nofollow - Adolf Hitler were very concerned about animal conservation, particularly pertaining as to how animals were butchered. Most current laws in Germany, and indeed the world, are derived from the laws put forth by the Nazi Party. This is, obviously, incredibly ironic as while on the one hand they defended the lives of brute animals, whilst on the other hand cruelly slaughtered Catholics, homosexuals, gypsies, and jews.
Hermann Goring, who was established as the Prime Minister of Prussia, had this to say:
“An absolute and permanent ban on vivisection is not only a necessary law to protect animals and to show sympathy with their pain, but it is also a law for humanity itself…. I have therefore announced the immediate prohibition of vivisection and have made the practice a punishable offense in Prussia.
Until such time as punishment is pronounced the culprit shall be lodged in a concentration camp.”
The above picture is a cartoon showing animals saved from vivisection saluting Hermann Goring. The sign in the window says “Vivisection Forbidden”.
When the Nazis came to power in 1933, their concerns not only laid with the people, but with the animals native to Germany. In 1934, a national hunting law was passed to regulate how many animals could be killed per year, and to establish proper ‘hunting seasons’. These hunting laws have now been applied in most western countries.
This law was known as Das Reichsjagdgesetz, the Reich Hunting Law. The Reichstag also footed the bill for education on animal conservation at Primary, Secondary and College levels. Additionally, in 1935, another law was passed, the Reichsnaturschutzgesetz (Reich Nature Protection Act). This law placed several native species on a protection list including the wolf and Eurasian lynx. Additions were added later as to afforestation and the humane slaughter of living fish.
Without this law it is likely some species would have completely disappeared from Germany’s forests.
8
Anti-Tobacco Movement
It is rumored that Adolf Hitler was so opposed to smoking in his later life that he couldn’t stand someone lighting up in the same room, and often felt obligated to object to it as a waste of money. Thus, he began one of the most expensive and effective tobacco movements throughout history. While during the 1930s and 1940s, other anti-tobacco movements failed fantastically in other countries, it was taken seriously in Nazi Germany.
The Nazis banned smoking in restaurants and public transportation systems, citing public health, and severely regulated the advertising of smoking and cigarettes. There was also a high tobacco tax, and the supplies of cigarettes to the Wehrmacht were rationed. Several health organizations in Nazi Germany even began claiming that smoking heightened the risks of miscarriages by pregnant women, now a commonly known fact.
The statistics of annual cigarette consumption per capita as of 1940 had Germany at only 749, while Americans smoked over 3,000.
The picture above says “He does not devour it, it [the cigarette] devours him!”
Nazi Germany had one of the largest public welfare programs in history, based on the philosophy that all Germans should share a standard of living.
One of the most famous of these was the Winter Relief program, where high ranking Nazis and common citizens both took to the streets to collect charity for the unfortunate. This was not only an extremely intelligent propaganda move, but also a ritual to generate general good public feeling toward those in need. Posters urged people to donate rather than give directly to beggars. Joseph Goebbels, himself a high ranking Nazi in control of Radio, Television and Propaganda, often participated in these events.
But how was the cost of this met? Largely from the stealing of belongings from those people considered enemies of the regime. The Nazi government stole immense amounts of money from their population and used it to fund a social welfare scheme that favored select members of society. Modern schemes modeled on this system are funded by taxes that steal from everyone.
Pictured above is a canister used for the Winter Relief Fund effort.
6
The Volkswagen
Literally meaning “People’s Car”, this vehicle was presented as a car that every German citizen could afford to buy. It was based on the advice of Hitler to the designer, saying that it should resemble a beetle. The car was a huge success (it was made available to citizens of the Third Reich through a savings scheme at 990 Reichsmark, about the price of a small motorcycle), but toward the end of the war resources were low and public availability declined. The Volkswagen emerged more as a military vehicle toward the end of the Third Reich.
However this has not stopped it from being one of the most popular vehicles in the world, known for reliability, stylish design (though some might question that!) and ease of use.
5
Autobahn
While not originally conceived by the Nazis, Hitler was an enthusiastic supporter of the idea and pushed for the largest network of roads to be built across Germany. Established as the first freeway system in the world, the autobahn was a revolutionary feat of engineering that forever changed the way humans travel. Thousands of countries have emulated the system Hitler put in place, including America and Britain. It is single handedly the largest network of roadways in the world, with roads stretching all across the country, even to other countries such as Austria.
The construction of this roadway wasn’t only revolutionary in itself, it provided over 100,000 workers with jobs necessary for the economic recovery efforts. It was a goal of the Nazi party to try and bring the country into a sense of unity through the roadway system, and for the most part it was successful. Aircraft was tested on the long, smooth, straight sections of road and Grand Prix racing teams are known to practice on them.
The man who invented rockets as we know them today, Wernher Von Braun, was a member of the Nazi party and commissioned Schutzstaffel Officer. He aided both Germany and the United States in the use of rockets during and after WW2, and eventually became a naturalized U.S. Citizen.
Although he pioneered many areas, including the installation of liquid-fueled rockets in aircraft and orbit to ground missiles, he is best known for his achievements in NASA.
His best achievement there was undoubtedly the development of the Saturn V booster rocket, that helped man to finally touch the moon, in July 1969. Von Braun officially opened the gate to space travel through his innovative inventions…as well as creating one of the most destructive methods of war known to mankind.
3
Innovations in Film
The Nazis were very interested in both film and music as propaganda techniques and essential cultural pillars. The first known magnetic tape recording was of a speech made by Hitler, and Joseph Goebbels pushed for more complicated methods of filming.
For example, the propaganda film ‘Triumph of the Will’, the sequel to the former propaganda film ‘Triumph of the Faith’, is regarded as one of the most important pieces of cinematographic history. The director, Leini Riefenstahl (pictured above) used an astounding thirty film cameras and over one hundred technicians to produce the two hour film. Since Triumph of the Will had an unlimited budget, the latest technologies were used. Cranes and track-rail filming were used, techniques still used today to make a smooth ‘traveling’ effect.
Ultimately, the propaganda films are dead, but the techniques developed at the time are seen regularly in the latest great Hollywood blockbusters.
2
Contributions to Fashion
The Nazi style of uniform was as bold as their style of government. Thick-soled leather boots, slouch hats, cowhide coats, and peak hats were some of the staples in Nazi fashion, as well as muted color tones often in gray, tan and black. The SS Panzer military organization struck fear into the hearts of their adversaries, with black forage caps and leather coats which were later adopted by American rockers. Doc Martens closely resemble the jump boots that many Schutzstaffel officers wore. Look around at any rock, industrial or otherwise ‘edgy’ group and you see small traces of Nazi fashion sense. The American novelist Kurt Vonnegut once described the style as ‘mildly theatrical’.
Additionally, the founder of Adidas, Adolf Dassler (whose nickname was Adi), was a Nazi. He produced shoes for the Wehrmacht during the war, as well was providing American and Nazi athletes with his footwear during the Berlin Olympics. This created national acclaim when Jesse Owens won the sprinting event at the Berlin Olympics wearing Adolf Dassler’s shoes. Adidas is now a multinational company, supplying athletes all over the world with a supply of footwear and sports accessories.
His brother, Rudolf Dassler, was the more ardent Nazi of the two brothers and went on to found another proficient sports company…Puma. Oh – and Hugo Boss was a Nazi who, from 1934, was an official supplier of uniforms to the SA, SS, Hitler Youth, NSKK and other Party organizations (as evidenced in the advertisement above).
1
Medical Advances
The death of ethics from medicine in Nazi Germany was a sinful, reckless, and dangerous decision, leading to untold atrocities; it has created one of the most extensive ethical controversies in history. Through the Nazi use of torture they discovered information that is discretely used by doctors and medical scientists today. For example, the Nazis extensively studied and monitored hypothermia, at Dachau concentration camp, by subjecting victims to severe torture. The Nazis immersed victims in vats of freezing water or left them out in the winter cold, all the while monitoring changes in body temperature, heart rate, muscle responses and urine. These tests were initially performed on volunteer soldiers, but the Nazis were not satisfied that they had all the information they could get and began to test on concentration camp victims. They attempted to formulate methods to bring the bodies back to a safe temperature, including the “Rapid Active Rewarming” technique that seemed to be the most effective method of revival – and is used today in the west. This research could potentially fill a gap in other researchers studying hypothermia.
the animal conversation is actually nonsense; I just watched a TV-feature about this topic today. what the Nazis actually wanted is the preservation of existing and recreation of extinct animals which they considered to be "Germanic" like for example the wolf (existing) or the aurochs (extinct). this actually means that they extended their racial theories to the animal kingdom
-------------
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 09:48
^ it's interesting to hear a perspective from a German. We are bombarded with all kinds of info regarding that period of history and i personally take everything with a grain of salt. I tend to agree that if a group sees other humans as mere fodder for their machine then it's certainly logical that they would only use animals for their own purposes as well. However, that doesn't mean an unintentional good idea didn't come out of it which i think is the purpose of the article. Yellowstone National Park was the first such type of protected area in the world and it didn't come from the Führer :P
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 10:17
siLLy puPPy wrote:
^ it's interesting to hear a perspective from a German.
Jean isn't a German.
------------- What?
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 10:21
Dean wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
^ it's interesting to hear a perspective from a German.
Jean isn't a German.
well, not by birth. but I hold German citizenship since 2001
-------------
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 10:29
siLLy puPPy wrote:
^ great points but even if you sell your soul for the benefit of others, you've still lost it. this stuff will be debated until the end of time. when it comes down to it everyone made mistakes. it was an incomprehensibly awful time to live through
He didn't sold his soul
HE SAVED MILLIONS OF LIVES WHICH WAS HIS DUTY.
He didn't made a mistake, he did what he had to do.
- If he left, 30 million Catholics n Germany and 100'000,000 Catholics in Eastern Euriope would had been in risk.
- 860,000 Jews would had died certainly
- Thousands of prisoners of war would had been executed
He saved those lives, silent, resisting insults, he didn't care, he had a more important duty.
-------------
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 10:29
BaldJean wrote:
Dean wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
^ it's interesting to hear a perspective from a German.
Jean isn't a German.
well, not by birth. but I hold German citizenship since 2001
I always thought you were. Were are you from originally?
-------------
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 10:33
BaldJean wrote:
Dean wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
^ it's interesting to hear a perspective from a German.
Jean isn't a German.
well, not by birth. but I hold German citizenship since 2001
You know what I meant.
------------- What?
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 10:33
The T wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
Dean wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
^ it's interesting to hear a perspective from a German.
Jean isn't a German.
well, not by birth. but I hold German citizenship since 2001
I always thought you were. Were are you from originally?
I am originally from Oakland, CA. Friede is German
-------------
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 11:04
^ well that's German enough for me! My point being someone who's been there a while and has a deeper exposure to the history of the region of the world where it all started. I love Oakland. Lived there for a couple years myself :)
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 11:11
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
^ great points but even if you sell your soul for the benefit of others, you've still lost it. this stuff will be debated until the end of time. when it comes down to it everyone made mistakes. it was an incomprehensibly awful time to live through
He didn't sold his soul
HE SAVED MILLIONS OF LIVES WHICH WAS HIS DUTY.
He didn't made a mistake, he did what he had to do.
- If he left, 30 million Catholics n Germany and 100'000,000 Catholics in Eastern Euriope would had been in risk.
- 860,000 Jews would had died certainly
- Thousands of prisoners of war would had been executed
He saved those lives, silent, resisting insults, he didn't care, he had a more important duty.
I certainly can't argue with you. I would not wanted to have been in his shoes for sure and nobody really knows all the details but i do believe that when you compromise your principles even for the good of all humanity you do lose a part of yourself. If that was his only choice then he should be admired but that wasn't my point that what he did was right or wrong, merely that he sacrificed a lot by doing it
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 12:27
Upbeat Tango Monday wrote:
The nazis were radical left, and they've created the footprints of the modern left wing politics around the world.
Of course the nazis were FOR big businesses and AGAINST small businesses. That’s called eliminating the middle class by taxation. You should know that’s a marxist idea.
You basically destroy small businesses by taxing them way too high. The core of this is eliminating competition, aka. Getting rid of capitalism.
Leftism is about central planning, even if they tell you they don’t like it. The idea for them is that until a “new man” emerges, you need the State in order to stop capitalism and private property. When we finally reach that point, you get rid of it and you’ll have achieved communism.
The thing is that, as soon as you get rid of the State, people go back to chopping wood in order to make houses and guitars, and boom…there you go, private property again. That’s how life is, and that’s fine. You make guitars, I’m a teacher…I work and I buy one of your cool six-string axes. Free relationship between individuals.
For instance: let’s suppose a World Govt. is established and we all receive the same amount of money. 10k for everyone! Equality! As soon as you hand out the money, some would invest it in hammers and tools, some would waste it on alcohol and hookers, some would buy sheep and cows. Since there’s no way of achieving communism because we are not robots, the State is there to stay. That’s why leftism IS and will ALWAYS be about big government. The nazis perfected the way of getting into office.
Posted By: Tillerman88
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 12:35
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
^ great points but even if you sell your soul for the benefit of others, you've still lost it. this stuff will be debated until the end of time. when it comes down to it everyone made mistakes. it was an incomprehensibly awful time to live through
He didn't sold his soul
HE SAVED MILLIONS OF LIVES WHICH WAS HIS DUTY.
He didn't made a mistake, he did what he had to do.
- If he left, 30 million Catholics n Germany and 100'000,000 Catholics in Eastern Euriope would had been in risk.
- 860,000 Jews would had died certainly
- Thousands of prisoners of war would had been executed
He saved those lives, silent, resisting insults, he didn't care, he had a more important duty.
People can have different perspectives, different viewpoints of the same reality. Fairly speaking, I plainly agree with your's...........and from my own aknowledgement of what really means to doing a pact or a contract or whatever accord with the devil , that one is darn far from being such a thing, let alone the Pope's reality at that specific time as you very well pointed.
And even if that was an extreme situation where he sought no escape other than to compromising some of his principles, my critical sense makes me see two new realities:
1) Even if he betrayed his principles the Pope wouldn't et al lose his soul....by any stretch of imagination........as far as he's a human being. I see people here confusing tainting his soul with losing it....
2) A real pact with the devil implies respecting and/or following and/or living under some devil's principles or rules......... of course that was not the case
.
..
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 13:15
siLLy puPPy wrote:
I certainly can't argue with you. I would not wanted to have been in his shoes for sure and nobody really knows all the details but i do believe that when you compromise your principles even for the good of all humanity you do lose a part of yourself. If that was his only choice then he should be admired but that wasn't my point that what he did was right or wrong, merely that he sacrificed a lot by doing it
That was his only choice
People from USA talk.
But they were on another continent
People from UK talk
But they were far from the Nazi terrtories
The vatican is here
Red and Orange...Nazi territory
The Vatican is a minuscule point in the center of the black point highlighted in a white circle.
- Surrounded 360° degrees by Nazis.
- With 167 soldiers armed with light weapons
And inside that dot...860,000 jews who trusted their lives to the Pope
And in all occupied Europe, more than 200 million Catholics who if the Pope broke the concordat, would pay the price with their lives.
Marcus Melchior, the former Chief Rabbi of Denmark, who attests that “if the Pope had spoken out, Hitler would probably have massacred more than six million Jews and perhaps ten times ten million Catholics, if he had the power to do so.”
Pius XII had a terrible duty, it wasn't his life, it was the life of millions in his hands.
-------------
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 13:37
^ Yes, but there was hostility towards Catholics for many injustices of the past that led up to these events. I don't have the desire to debate this to death but it's not as simple as you present
Posted By: Tuzvihar
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 14:45
A Person wrote:
Upbeat Tango Monday wrote:
The nazis were radical left, and they've created the footprints of the modern left wing politics around the world.
Of course the nazis were FOR big businesses and AGAINST small businesses. That’s called eliminating the middle class by taxation. You should know that’s a marxist idea.
You basically destroy small businesses by taxing them way too high. The core of this is eliminating competition, aka. Getting rid of capitalism.
Leftism is about central planning, even if they tell you they don’t like it. The idea for them is that until a “new man” emerges, you need the State in order to stop capitalism and private property. When we finally reach that point, you get rid of it and you’ll have achieved communism.
The thing is that, as soon as you get rid of the State, people go back to chopping wood in order to make houses and guitars, and boom…there you go, private property again. That’s how life is, and that’s fine. You make guitars, I’m a teacher…I work and I buy one of your cool six-string axes. Free relationship between individuals.
For instance: let’s suppose a World Govt. is established and we all receive the same amount of money. 10k for everyone! Equality! As soon as you hand out the money, some would invest it in hammers and tools, some would waste it on alcohol and hookers, some would buy sheep and cows. Since there’s no way of achieving communism because we are not robots, the State is there to stay. That’s why leftism IS and will ALWAYS be about big government. The nazis perfected the way of getting into office.
Stop laughing and watch this:
------------- "Music is much like f**king, but some composers can't climax and others climax too often, leaving themselves and the listener jaded and spent."
Charles Bukowski
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 17:58
siLLy puPPy wrote:
^ Yes, but there was hostility towards Catholics for many injustices of the past that led up to these events. I don't have the desire to debate this to death but it's not as simple as you present
Now we go to middle age?
- Yes we had an inquisition (The Spanish was responsibility of the Spanish Crown), but nobody talk about Protestant inquisition.
- Yes we had Crusades, but the responsibility is more in Kings than in the Church, even when we admit our participation.
But this doesn't lead to attack a man who saved millions of lives.
-------------
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 18:01
Re: The Nazis as leftists:
I swallowed my disgust and tried to read this type of Marxist press production, but my revulsion became so unlimited in so doing that I endeavoured to become more closely acquainted with the men who manufactured these compendiums of knavery.
Marxism created the economic weapon which the international world jew uses for shattering the economic base of the free, independent national states, for the destruction of their national industry and their national commerce, and, accordingly, the enslavement of free peoples in the service of supra-state world finance Jewry.
It is not the mass that invents and not the majority that organises or thinks, but in all things only and always the individual man, the person. (...) But as, in economic life, the able men cannot be appointed from above, but must struggle through for themselves, and just here the endless schooling, ranging from the smallest business to the largest enterprise, occurs spontaneously, with life alone giving the examinations, obviously political minds cannot be "discovered".
A philosophy of life which endeavours to reject the democratic mass idea and give this earth to the best people - that is, the highest humanity - must logically obey the same aristocratic principles within this people and make sure that the leadership and the highest influence within this people fall to the best minds.
From Hitler's "Mein Kampf".
I absolutely insist on protecting private property... we must encourage private initiative
Adolf Hitler 1942 according to "Hitler's Secret Conversations". Translated by Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens. Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc. 1953. p. 294
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 18:17
Upbeat Tango Monday wrote:
To JJLehto, who said the following: "But to call it radical left? That's quite unrealistic. It by no means sought to replace capitalism first of all, it was just a different form, and clearly it was not anti big business. And from what I understand, the workers and small business didn't exactly fare super well under Fascism.
Anyway true leftism doesn't even like central planning. Hell Leon Trotsky of all people said central planning was a bad idea. I can't blame you. For decades we've all been taught socialism/leftism = more more government! China or fascism is the end result, so I get the confusion but please don't say fascism is radical left. That's nonsense"
Ok. Let's get started. A different form of what? of capitalism? you are way off! The nazis were radical left, and they've created the footprints of the modern left wing politics around the world. It's not about brute force, or beheading a leader anymore. They've improved the russian formula quite a bit, and it's been copied all around since the end of WWII.
Of course the nazis were FOR big businesses and AGAINST small businesses. That’s called eliminating the middle class by taxation. You should know that’s a marxist idea. You basically destroy small businesses by taxing them way too high. The core of this is eliminating competition, aka. Getting rid of capitalism. As you eliminate businesses and jobs and people become homeless, they turn to welfare and support the very State that left them living under a bridge. Suppose there’s a big company that turns a lot of profit, what you do is tax competition out of business, make a small company struggle, having to raise the prices in order to keep from falling. Now, as you take away lots of money from the small, common middle class family business, you give exemptions and privileges to the big corpo. The big company can afford to lower the prices as the small ones crumble. They take 100% of the market, and in return they pay back the favor. It’s a win-win situation for the State. Once everyone supports you, you just snatch the big corpos who helped you, and you’re settled. That’s how things work today and that’s how the nazis did it. Look for IG Farben, for instance, if you are into monopolies. I’m pretty sure modern politicans wouldn’t take your money away by force in order to give it to General Motors XD LOL Leftism is about central planning, even if they tell you they don’t like it. The idea for them is that until a “new man” emerges, you need the State in order to stop capitalism and private property. When we finally reach that point, you get rid of it and you’ll have achieved communism. The thing is that, as soon as you get rid of the State, people go back to chopping wood in order to make houses and guitars, and boom…there you go, private property again. That’s how life is, and that’s fine. You make guitars, I’m a teacher…I work and I buy one of your cool six-string axes. Free relationship between individuals. For instance: let’s suppose a World Govt. is established and we all receive the same amount of money. 10k for everyone! Equality! As soon as you hand out the money, some would invest it in hammers and tools, some would waste it on alcohol and hookers, some would buy sheep and cows. Since there’s no way of achieving communism because we are not robots, the State is there to stay. That’s why leftism IS and will ALWAYS be about big government. The nazis perfected the way of getting into office.
Yes, a different form of capitalism.
I see what the issue is here. You believe capitalism = laissez-faire. This is not accurate. Capitalism is just private ownership of the means of production. That's all.
You can't even say it's a market allocation of resources because even some socialists believe in market allocation. There are different forms of everything. There is socialism which is pure worker control and market allocation, there is totally state run socialism, there are some that dont believe in money and markets at all. Same with Capitalism. There's liberal capitalism, social democracy/moderate capitalism, and fascism/state run capitalism. All those forms believe in private ownership. Fascists may not believe in free markets, but some socialists do. You can't lump everything into this "Capitalism = strict laissez-faire all else is authoritarian leftism". That is just the tactic used by laissez-faire advocates to make us believe EVERYTHING is socialism.
It's funny, I think socialism as an idea was killed off...by moderate capitalism. The best time ever for workers was the post WWII era. There were still rich people, big business, private enterprise and markets but everyone got a decent piece of the pie, and there were buffers in place to protect people and systems to "curb" some excesses. That was the lesson of the 1930s....people will support capitalism, but not in its unfettered form. And this moderate capitalism is what killed socialism. It was the elitist, conservative Otto von Bismark that realized if you give the people a bit, it can keep socialism at bay (and it's no denying he loathed socialists).
BUT people like yourself started calling that and everything socialism...you have been successfully in slowly peeling us back to the older era and what do you know: Socialism and Fascism are re emerging as popular ideas!!! By calling everything socialism, your ilk have brought that very idea back from the dead.
Life is ironic eh? (Or we just fail to learn from history)
Anyway, I agree. I said Fascism was an offshoot of socialism. They used some of the terminology and ideas but sorry, to call it leftism is just silly and biased. They didn't advocate the overthrow of capitalism and they were staunchly anti Marxist. You are totally correct in much of what you say but the problem is you keep throwing it up to "leftism" and that's just inaccurate. I assume it's simply bias of your views. If you want to put everything not laissez-faire as "leftism" than that's simply false. The original conservatives were not pro market or democracy. At last be fair and call it "statism" not "leftism"
I'm ignoring the mini econ lesson because 1: I've heard it 10000 times before and 2: I am studying Economics at the graduate level so I really don't need it sorry.
I'm a market capitalist btw. Just ya know, the kind that worked and didn't lead to mass social strife, inequality, erosion of democracy and instability. I like the kind that kept socialism and fascism at bay, not welcomed then in by removing the most moderate alternative for people.
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 18:26
The National Socialist German Workers’ Party (Nazi party) is one of the most infamous political systems in the history of the earth, made famous by their severe acts of cruelty and completely inhuman behavior. Despite that, the Nazi government implemented a number of policies which were for the good of their people and those of the future; many of these policies are now implemented by our own governments.
Please note: this list is NOT an endorsement of the Nazi regime which is, clearly, one of the most evil in history – second only to Stalinist Russia. This list hopefully shows that even amidst great evil, the good of man is still able to shine through. This list is an homage to those men and women living in Nazi Germany who were able to make change for good whilst living under a severely corrupt and wrong regime.
To the extent that these things have directly to do with the Nazi ideology, they were integral part of the Nazi system and cannot be considered in an isolated way as "things the Nazis got right" or instances of "the good of man being able to shine through" (which is an amazingly naive interpretation).
Personally I object to the analysis of the Nazi (or other) regime as "evil" as opposed to "the good of man"; much of the Nazi ideology, rise and system was a product of historical developments that had much older roots, and the Nazis appealed to certain human characteristics and instincts that exist in most human beings and can be used and manipulated in them (and giving them something that looks "good" is one of the basic techniques for that). The "evil" of the Nazis is less separated from most of us than we tend to think, and I just hope that everyone takes some care of themselves in this respect.
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 18:37
Tillerman88 wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
^ great points but even if you sell your soul for the benefit of others, you've still lost it. this stuff will be debated until the end of time. when it comes down to it everyone made mistakes. it was an incomprehensibly awful time to live through
He didn't sold his soul
HE SAVED MILLIONS OF LIVES WHICH WAS HIS DUTY.
He didn't made a mistake, he did what he had to do.
- If he left, 30 million Catholics n Germany and 100'000,000 Catholics in Eastern Euriope would had been in risk.
- 860,000 Jews would had died certainly
- Thousands of prisoners of war would had been executed
He saved those lives, silent, resisting insults, he didn't care, he had a more important duty.
People can have different perspectives, different viewpoints of the same reality. Fairly speaking, I plainly agree with your's...........and from my own aknowledgement of what really means to doing a pact or a contract or whatever accord with the devil , that one is darn far from being such a thing, let alone the Pope's reality at that specific time as you very well pointed.
And even if that was an extreme situation where he sought no escape other than to compromising some of his principles, my critical sense makes me see two new realities:
1) Even if he betrayed his principles the Pope wouldn't et al lose his soul....by any stretch of imagination........as far as he's a human being. I see people here confusing tainting his soul with losing it....
2) A real pact with the devil implies respecting and/or following and/or living under some devil's principles or rules......... of course that was not the case.
sigh... sometimes people just don't understand figurative speech. of course Hitler is not the devil, and neither did the pope lose his soul.
as to the Reichskonkordat: it can actually be summed up in one sentence: "Church, mind your own business and shut up or else...".
and that's exactly what the church did - it shut up. even Konrad Adenauer, a devout Roman Catholic, complained about that. I will quote from a letter of Adenauer to Bernard Custodis, priest at the St Elisabeth church in Bonn who also held a doctorate in canon law:
"Ich glaube, dass, wenn die Bischöfe alle miteinander an einem bestimmten
Tage öffentlich von den Kanzeln aus dagegen* Stellung genommen hätten,
sie vieles hätten verhüten können. Das ist nicht geschehen und dafür
gibt es keine Entschuldigung".
translation:
"I believe that had the bishops all together publicly taken position against this* from their pulpits on a certain day they would have been able to prevent many things. It did not happen, and there is no excuse for this".
* Adenauer listed several Nazi crimes earlier in the letter
a bit later in his letter Adenauer says:
"Ich weiß bestimmt, dass der verstorbene Papst mit meinem Urteil genau
übereinstimmte. Wie der jetzige Papst denkt, weiß ich nicht".
translation:
"I know for certain that the late pope (annotation by me: Pius XI) exactly concurs with my judgement. what the current pope (Pius XII) thinks I know not".
since Ivan loves diplomatic speech: the last sentence means "the current pope does not"
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 07 2017 at 22:00
BaldJean wrote:
sigh... sometimes people just don't understand figurative speech. og course Hitler is not the devil, and neither did the pope lose his soul.
as to the Reichskonkordat: it can actually be summed up in one sentence: "Church, mind your own business and shut up or else...".
Or else, we will persecute million Catholics, occupy the Vatican, place a puppet Pope in Bavaria, sell all the treasures of the Church and finance the war.
A small price tio pay for 130 million Catholics and 860,000 Jews that other wise wouldn't have where to hide.
BaldJean wrote:
and that's exactly what the church did - it shut up. even Konrad Adenauer, a devout Roman Catholic, complained about that. I will quote from a letter of Adenauer to Bernard Custodis, priest at the St Elisabeth church in Bonn who also held a doctorate in canon law:
"Ich glaube, dass, wenn die Bischöfe alle miteinander an einem bestimmten
Tage öffentlich von den Kanzeln aus dagegen* Stellung genommen hätten,
sie vieles hätten verhüten können. Das ist nicht geschehen und dafür
gibt es keine Entschuldigung."
translation:
"I believe that had the bishops all together publicly taken position against this* from their pulpits on a certain day they would have been able to prevent many things. It did not happen, and there is no excuse for this".
* Adenauer listed several Nazi crimes earlier in the letter
a bit later in his letter Adewnauer says:
"Ich weiß bestimmt, dass der verstorbene Papst mit meinem Urteil genau
übereinstimmte. Wie der jetzige Papst denkt, weiß ich nicht."
translation:
BaldJean wrote:
"I know for certain that the late pope (annotation by me: Pius Xi) exactly concurs with my judgement. what the current pope (Pius XII) thinks I know not".
since Ivan loves diplomatic speech: the last sentence means "the current pope does not"
WRONG
The Reichskonkordat was signed by Eugenio Paccelli as NUNCIO, in representation of PIUS XI.
Do you believe that a Nuncio can sign a Concordat without authorization of the Pope?
This is what the Reichskonkordat says:
Concordat between the Holy See and the German Reich [with Supplementary Protocol and Secret Supplement] July 20, 1933
[Ratified 10 September 1933]
His Holiness Pope Pius XI and the President of the German Reich,moved by a common desire to consolidate and promote the friendly relations existing between the Holy See and the German Reich, wish to permanently regulate the relations between the Catholic Church and the state for the whole territory of the German Reich in a way acceptable to both parties. They have decided to conclude a solemn agreement, which will supplement the Concordats already concluded with individual German states (Länder) [1], and will ensure for the remaining states (Länder) fundamentally uniform treatment of their respective problems.
For this purpose His Holiness Pope Pius XI has appointed as his Plenipotentiary His Eminence the Most Reverend Cardinal Eugenio Pacelli, his Secretary of State and the President of the German Reich has appointed as Plenipotentiary the Vice-Chancellor of the German Reich, Herr Franz von Papen, who, having exchanged their respective mandates and found them to be in good and proper form, have agreed to the following Articles:
http://www.concordatwatch.eu/kb-1211.834
It was Pius XI who signed the Concordat represented by Eugenio Paccelli.
Pius XI knew perfectly the diplomatic language and Pius XII was a diplomat.
BTW: The Vatican didn't shut up
- In 1937 Pius XI wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mit_brennender_Sorge" rel="nofollow - M it Brennender Sorge (1937; “With Deep Anxiety”) attacking Germanracism
- In 1939 Pius XII wroteHumani Generis Unitas, which said literally:
"It becomes clear that the struggle of racial purity ends by being uniquely the struggle against the Jews. Save for its systematic cruelty, this struggle is no different in true motives and methods from persecutions everywhere carried out against the Jews since antiquity."
- In October 1939, Pius XII wrote Summi Pontificatus against Catholics who joined the Nazi Party:
"8. Who could observe without profound grief the tragic harvest of such desertions among those who in days of calm and security were numbered among the followers of Christ, but who -- Christians unfortunately more in name than in fact -- in the hour that called for endurance, for effort, for suffering, for a stout heart in face of hidden or open persecution, fell victims of cowardice, weakness, uncertainty; who, terror-stricken before the sacrifices entailed by a profession of their Christian Faith, could not steel themselves to drink the bitter chalice awaiting those faithful to Christ?"
- December 1942, Pius XII gave his famous Christmas speech, transmited to Germany and read in every German Church:
"Humanity owes this vow to those hundreds of thousands who, without any fault on their part, sometimes only because of their nationality or race, have been marked down for death or gradual extinction"
Konrad Adenawer didn't have 130 millions persons to save, Pope Pius had, and he did
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 08 2017 at 01:20
All right... all right... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans done for us?
------------- What?
Posted By: Tillerman88
Date Posted: February 08 2017 at 01:56
"...sometimes people just don't understand figurative speech. Of course Hitler is not the devil, and neither did the Pope lose his soul. "
Oh boy.........who's the 'devil' on this fu****g thread then?
pffff,..........
Posted By: Tillerman88
Date Posted: February 08 2017 at 02:05
" The nazis were radical left, and they've created the footprints of the modern left wing politics around the world."
"So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot." ~George Orwell