Just putting this out there and I am sure they'll be individuals who don't agree with me and others that do...

but why should Clannad be designated "Prog Folk" and Fairport Convention be relegated to "Prog-related".

On the biography of Clannad on PA includes this:

"Clannad belongs on progarchives for their influence on numerous prog acts and their appeal to many prog fans...."

Surely Fairport influenced more prog acts than Clannad ever did? No? To me there are many prog elements throughout their entire catalogue and especially in the first decade but even in their later stuff as well.

Dare I say, Fairport influenced Clannad! No?

I am sure this was debated in the past but I feel that Fairport deserve and little bit more recognition than just being Prog-related on PA.

Discuss.

You could add Capercaillie to the list as well as they are similar in style.

With Fairport, they were proggy in much the same way as most bands were proggy during their 1968-1972 period.  I wouldn't oppose them in prog folk but say it has more to do with them being there at the time.  And yes they were a big influence on Clannad, but not as big as Pentangle was by a long shot.

I completely agree.  

Clannad never seemed like something I would call prog.  Fairport Convention more prggish to me than Clannad.  

et oui Martin, bien expresse

but I would start with "Dulaman" from Clannad.  Absolutely brilliant from start to finish

I've listened to Clannad this morning and to the first solo of Maire Brennan yesterday. Calling it prog may seem hazardous, but I don't think that having them on PA is a scandal, and listening to Maire, I'd suggest her for inclusion, too. Not Enya, sorry. 

I've never though there was that much 'prog' going on with either band ...and I often wonder how some of these bands get lumped under prog folk here at PA.....not that it really mattes in the end.

I respect Fairport to the moon and back, love what they have given to British folk rock, admire their influence, etc, etc, etc, but would choose to listen to pre 1988  Clannad over any Fairport 19 times out of 20.   I will NOT blame them for inspiring Enya's mega billions selling solo career with their brillian 1983 hit, "Theme from Harry's Game".   But I will blame them for trying to emulate her after she struck multi platinum. 

If taken in context at the time they first came up, I would say that Fairport Convention is way more progressive and interesting than Clannad, and while this could be said to be my preference, you can look at the various things they did in the early days, which were not "exactly" making FOLK music well known, and in fact, it should be stated that they were making sure that its tradition of experimentation and continuation was alive and well ... there are many pieces available of them extending the songs, and showing an improvised element that I am not sure that Clannad has at all, which would take away from their "progressive" ideal altogether, but that is my seeing it.

And catching all the FC albums with Sandy Denny, is a treat that I'm not sure that many folks can totally appreciate. You can start and stop at "Reynardine" and then "One More Chance", a song that also comes with a piano version that is even more scary than the original in the album, which was already a song about the departed from this earth Sandy Denny, with a massive duet of instruments in it, that was likely done after she fell. But it brought out the "progressive" in the band, and their rendition of "Reynardine" is one of the prettiest things ever recorded in rock music, though too artsy and pretty, for many folks here to even consider it "progressive", but considering it "folk"? Way out of the atmosphere on that one, I suppose! Folk had never been that "electric" and "pointed" as it was at that moment.

I do not think that Clannad, ever had the strength and ability that FC displayed over their history, and in many ways, I would almost consider Clannad a lot of pop songs and music, and not even something like FC that on occasion defied the definition of ... folk music?

But, they never went away did they? They actually released some bloody good material in the later Seventies, and after they disbanded they decided to hold an annual reunion. This in turn led to a reformation of the band (sadly without Swarb or Thompson), and they again released some excellent albums and continue to do so to the present day. They have reinvented themselves a few times - I saw them many times when Maart turned them more electric rock and both he and Dave Mattacks played keyboards as well, but have also enjoyed the twin fiddle approach of the most recent line-up.

I have seen them too many times to count, and last year travelled from New Zealand to the UK just to attend the 50th Anniversary Cropredy. The old guys came on stage at 8:00, and then blasted away for four hours - not bad considering many of them had been playing on and off over the previous two days as well.

I was fortunate enough to visit Woodworm Studios some years back and interview Peggy and Simon, and it was an experience I am never likely to forget. 

I also enjoy Clannad, but not to anything like the same degree, and believe they are in the correct genre. But as for FC? They should be moved if Prog Folk team are in agreement.

 

Anyway, it is not my part to Judge in which subgenre they should belong. I am not a subgenre specialist and the Prog Folk policy is way too enigmatic for me to fathom.

hmmm...  I can't say I agree with that Doc. It were those progressive elements in Pentangle absent largely in Fairport that kept them from being ...what Fairport is considered.. the quintessential English 'folk rock' act

while Pentangle shade much more into what the site recognizes as progressive folk.

After reading through this thread I want to youtube and typed in "clannad full album." The first result was Macalla. I meditated to it..

yeah agreed that Pentangle is more prog than Fairport, by virtue of their jazzy vibe.

Clannad has that vibe too, definitely more influenced by Pentangle than by Fairport, particularly up to and including "Magical Ring".  This is a family that had music in their blood, and it wasn't just folk music, but all kinds.  Watch the pastpresent video if you can find it, from 1989 - it's a mix of concert footage, interviews and music videos.  

 

I was around when FC was included. At the time, it was the first of those historic UK folk-rock that got included in the DB, but I wasn't warm in including them in PF for a few reasons - and a few admins approved my qualms back then. I do recognize their merits and loved their longer tracks (like Sailor's life), but the band usually settled into a groove and would solo away (ad-nauseam, sometimes), but would never wander out of the groove. Sometimes, their grooves was in 5/4 (like Tam Lin, for ex), but they just stayed in it, no other fancy stuff.

In the early days of the site, I didn't want to dilute the PF genre (and neither did my two co-workers of back then)  with half-baked inclusion (which FC seemed in that context).... though Horslips was already in. Of course, with the dozen of additions since with weaker prog credentials (I screwed up myself in including DCD in PF on the force of Aion ) , so nowadays it seems awkward that stuff like Clannad is in a full-blown prog genre, while FC isn't. Personally, I think that now that the dilution damage has been done, I think it could make sense to have FC in PF. I'm still fighting against it (FC's move upwards) right now , but that's mostly on rigorous and rigid intellectual integrity

 

If there are other cases in Prog-related; we could analyse their case individually, according to their respective merits.

 

 

 

At the time, that was my reasoning as well (which stood for Steeleye Span as well)...

 

Pentangle was more of a jazz-folk band than a folk-rock one.

We'll have to agree to disagree...to me there is nothing particularly progressive about Pentangle and in fact the 

early albums are pretty mainstream imho. And we are talking folk rock here as well as prog folk...and Pentangle don't  'rock' for me....though I do like them. As I said I don't think Fairport are particularly proggy either but again we are having that conversation about what prog even means.

I see both bands as 'folk rock'  with prog elements mixed in.....so again I fail to see why Pentangle is on the PA list  as well as some others and Fairport isn't. 

Well stated; my thoughts entirely!

as some (not just me) said, Pentanle's brilliant arrangements and time sigs and their (then-)revolutionary mix of jazz, blues and folk made them "Rock". A bit like Oregon, if the JR/F team hadn't (rightly) snatched it away from us. In other words (and IMHO), Pentangle was boxing in a superior category than Fairpost was.

Pentangle was a supergroup, with four very experimented musicians (only McShee wasc a relative unknown) in 68, and the apparent mainstreamness (on the surface) is precisely what made them great, if not fantastic, while Fairport seemed like electric folker practicing in their basement or garage. Again, not to demean Fairport, coz I liked them.

BTW, I recently saw a rare film of Glastonbury Fayre 72 (second or third edition, I believe) and Fairport's 15 minutes more or less resumed them as a loud stomping ground electric folk band (though the public loved them to bits) much like Lindisfarne was, but they appeared not very proggy, next to Traffic, Family and AB's Kingdom Come.

Dr, you're welcome to participate on the Genre team thread discussion that Ken & I (and hopefully Clem) are having if you're really feeling strong about Fairport's promotion to PF (I'm not impermeable to the subject).

I would have thought that at very least, Babbacombe Lee would have made that step over from more traditional folk-rock into more prog territory- a concept piece running over both sides of an lp with recurring themes etc and Dave Swarbricks more adventurous fiddle playing and composing to the fore. Also the guitar and composition elements of Richard Thompson's (who is someone who has NEVER sat on his laurels in terms of the scope of the music he makes) involvement over the years must count for something?  I do agree that Pentangle's web of influences and the background of the musicians is more dense and varied and that makes for something new rather than modern reinterpretations of traditional songs and west-coast lite of  some early Fairport material.

Clannad has been a MAJOR find for me! I've recently meditated to Magical Ring and Banba, both were ridiculously good. I got so deep during "I Will Find You." 

They are now my go to band and probably will be for the foreseeable future. 

try Fuaim too, and even Cran Ull

Also Dulaman, though I doubt you will meditate to it.  As Clannad goes it's somewhat more insistent

Just meditated to Fuaim, you were right it was really good. Started out like it wasn't going to be, but a few tracks in and.. wow. 

I'll have to listen to those other two sometime soon now. Thanks for the suggestions!