"Favourite" = "Best"?
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=121296
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Topic: "Favourite" = "Best"?
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Subject: "Favourite" = "Best"?
Date Posted: October 27 2019 at 19:00
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As we near that time of the year in which we try to consider our "Album of the Year" lists, I wanted to generate a discussion regarding what it it is we are judging with these rankings and assignations. First of all: Do you consider your favourite album to be the best album? E.g., is your favourite football team the best football team out there? Which leads to the follow up questions: Are we voting/naming the best albums we've heard to our year end lists, or are we elevating our favourite albums to those lists? I do not know which is right or wrong, or preferrable, But I would like it clarified: Are we putting together lists of our favourite music from 2019 or the best albums we heard during the year. If you consider the two one and the same, I urge you to consider my earlier example: Is the best football team out there your favourite? Is the best piece of literature you've ever read your favourite book ever? I am trying to make an argument that the two are not the same. Thus, I am trying to seek clarification. For example: ANEKDOTEN's Until All the Ghosts Are Gone was voted by the PA Collaborators as the "Top Album of 2015." Was it the best album of 2015 or merely your favourite album of 2015? ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Replies:
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: October 27 2019 at 19:20
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This is a question that has been debated here before concerning reviews. I've heard people go both ways with it. Some will say favorite and best are two different animals, while some say they should be the same...ie...if you like it best, that is the best album to you. Embrace subjectivity. There is no such thing as an objective reaction to art if one is being honest. That kind of thing. Should you write an appreciative review of something you don't like, looking for the aspects of the recording you do admire and rate up based on those things. Or should you say, no, overall, I think this fails....2 stars? ------------- https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sQD8uhpWXCw" rel="nofollow - It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...Road Rage Edition |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 27 2019 at 19:28
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No, I don't consider my favourite albums to be the best (and such thinking seems rather arrogant to me often). Even if I thought it could be done somehow objectively, I wouldn't have time to listen to them all (and I'd be listening to a lot of music that may be well-produced that I loathe). Incidentally, there are albums I think very accomplished that I hate, and albums i love that I don't think very accomplished according to various metrics. The Top Collab album is merely calculated based on a bunch of lists of individual's favourites. I wouldn't even consider "best" as an individual choice or overall group choice. Although one's favourite of something can also be the best objectively following criteria within a framework of analysis (which also can have a subjective element), the lists are just consolidated from the favourite albums of the collabs who participated (as each one orders it in terms of preference and points are assigned in terms of preference). Obviously we have a limited number who participate each of which has listened to a limited number of albums, and we all will have rather different lists and ordering depending upon what we have heard and liked. We don't even come up with a short-list that we all must listen to and decide from. My favourite of the year based on what I know and like is not the over-all collab choice (based on how it is tallied from all participants) most often. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: October 27 2019 at 19:56
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My favorite football team has nothing to do with whether they are the best or not, it's borne of a long history of support not a one year sample size. When I'm judging the best albums of the year I am judging my favorites of that year independent of who made it. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: October 27 2019 at 20:01
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They are not the same. Favorite is subjective, best is objective. For the collab list, even though we call it best, I just assumed it was each collab giving their favorite albums of the year and then a total is made from that. That said, Idk what the original intent of the list was meant to be. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: October 27 2019 at 20:06
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I have no idea how I pick an album that is objectively better rather than something I like better? What criteria am I meant to use? I'm not that objective when it comes to music. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 27 2019 at 21:51
Easier to differentiate between best and favourite in football or any other sport because sport has an objective metric: the scores. If you don't win, you can't keep saying you're better, nobody respects that in sport. Or maybe I shouldn't generalise. For, in tennis, I see Federer fans rushing to concoct new metrics as Nadal overtaking him in slams is now not just a distinct but a very strong possibility (and I say this as a Federer fan, to be clear). But such outliers (where emotions and passions are too strong to permit objectivity) aside, in sport, it's easy to differentiate between your favourite and the best. In music, it's simply not possible to decide which is the best album because there is really no such thing. I could see it happening maybe in a theoretical outlier year where other albums are unanimously bad and the one album where every song is good, if not great, is considered the best by all. But that's a theoretical possibility; it doesn't happen in reality. On the same lines, it would be easier to decide who is a better guitar player than which band makes better albums. Whether or not I ENJOY listening to Guthrie Govan as much as I do Gilmour, Hackett or Rothery, I would have no qualms in accepting that he is a better guitarist than all of them (albeit I see many music fans have difficulty even allowing that). But I certainly don't like his songwriting for either his solo albums or the Aristocrats project as much as what the other guitarists did with their respective bands.
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BrufordFreak wrote:Posted By: Braka1
Date Posted: October 28 2019 at 02:28
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I think 'favourite' and 'best' are distinct concepts, but you may as well just ask what my favourite is, for no other reason than I am certain about what I like, but I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to be considering when I try to work out if something is better.
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Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: October 28 2019 at 03:04
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The analogy with football Teams (and of course I mean english association football) is that teams have objective properties, such as current form stats and also historical stats. These can be used to grade the teams performance against other teams objectively. With subjectivity the most prevalent aspect of aesthetical appraisal, the polling and ratings are purely metrics which give a rough guide to subjective popularity! I suppose we could have a panel of competent musicians who could judge the music on its technical difficulty that gives a punter an idea of what is technically superior music... ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: October 28 2019 at 07:04
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Favorite does not equal best. You are creating an "album of the year" list which is just valid for a moment in time. Your favorites of this year won't necessarily be the best albums of all time. Same with a football team... the current stats are only valid for a moment in time and do not mean they are the best ever.
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Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: October 28 2019 at 07:06
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My favorite football team has not been considered the best in around 100 years, they've never been the best in my lifetime. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: October 28 2019 at 07:10
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Not a collaborator so not sure whether it makes sense to write here, anyway... The thing is that there is obviously a way of thinking that can distinguish between "favourite" and "best", usually referring to "subjectivity" regarding "favourite" and "objectivity" regarding "best". There is some experience that corresponds to it, namely if we feel that there are albums that deserve respect and appreciation but they don't click with us emotionally, or on the other hand stuff that we love where we are unable to explain our love and we may feel that this is due to a very individual connection rather than something that would generalise to others. This has often to do with some criteria such as originality or complexity or skill of the musicians that can be communicated fairly easily and may at least seem objective. I can't very well advertise Camel to others and I see very well according to which "rational" criteria some people say that they should not be rated as highly as they are by many here, but I love them nonetheless (and OK, there's no way round the fact that Andy is a great guitarist). But then the supposed objectivity is a myth really, because claiming that there is an objectively best album doesn't refer to any truth that could be found anywhere. It can be made discussable and be negotiated in rational terms, fair enough, but ultimately these don't correspond to how music works, and particularly not to the diversity of music perception of different people (about which there is research). Now my take on this is that I can find some value in the distinction despite thinking that objectivity is a myth, at least when it comes to music evaluation. There is so much more to music discourse than just "I like this, I don't like that" that I appreciate the list maker and reviewer who tries to work with properly communicable criteria and not only taste, and we all know that sometimes it helps to do some work to get into something that is widely appreciated as "good" but leaves us cold in the beginning. Although maybe for a list of the best of a year without writing any text around them it doesn't matter. The subjectivists will always have the point that there is no true objectivity to be found in any case. |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: October 28 2019 at 07:22
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The thing is music is subjective, the "best" football team is the one at the top of the league, that's objective. As far as music goes, favourite normally means best in your eyes.
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Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: October 28 2019 at 07:27
| If you base your list of the Best on your personal taste, then yes. If you consider orchestration, instrumentation, composition, etc, then no. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: October 28 2019 at 10:27
| This is possibly the worst discussion ever on PA. I mean how the hell can you decide objectively what is the best? I've said many times (mostly to deaf ears) that consistency is overrated. Some will have you believe that a neat collection of songs all in the right order is the best or some weird bunch of randomly ordered avante garde stuff is really pushing the boundaries. Actually I don't care. Just pick a list. I'm never going to pick something for any reason other than whether I like it or not.. I will of course always entertain recommendations and that is all these lists are to me. If it bothers anyone then I wouldn't mind it at all if the album of the year was scrapped. It does seem entirely pointless on a site that already has reviews and ratings that provides a perfectly good album of the year list. |
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: October 28 2019 at 10:41
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For years music fans have been subjected to a seemingly endless series of albums called "Best Of..." Of course what they almost always mean is "Greatest Hits of..." Thus, we have been conditioned to equate the best with the most popular. Given metrics such as our administrators use, the connection to "Favorite" is easy to make. But a little thought shows us they are not the same thing. The question lies in what we mean by "best." The term requires some objectivity, which not everybody is fully capable of, even those of us who consider themselves musicians, like me. An analogy would be with movies. Both Scorsese and Coppola have spoken against comic book movies, especially Marvel. These are fantastically popular movies and are effective as entertainment. From a technical perspective, they are good, but does that mean the best? As said before, favorite is a subjective term. So, no, they are not both the same, but equating the two has been institutionalized so much that it is easy for us to equate them. Personally, I tend to avoid the word "best" because I know there is always a subjective element to it. It implies competition in a place where there isn't any. Was classic Yes a better band than classic Genesis, or Jethro Tull? How can you say so? Each had their own unique qualities that equal each other. Now, of course you can say you prefer one over the other, but to say one is better than the other in an objective sense is fanboy hyperbole. ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: tamijo_II
Date Posted: October 28 2019 at 13:14
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There is not such a thing as best in Art - that belong to sport. ------------- Same person as this profile: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=22524" rel="nofollow - Tamijo |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 28 2019 at 13:55
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And the sport of music contests. I do believe that you can talk about best in music and the art generally (especially when using a smaller set), for instance when talking performance (and some performances may be considered more artistic than others). Some are clearly more accomplished artists, musicians, and writers than others, just as some engineers, surgeons etc, are more accomplished than others. Let's say that you asked an acclaimed concert pianist to perform Liszt's Piano sonata in B minor, then asked a three year old beginning student to perform it. I would warrant that of the two, certainly technically, the accomplished musician would be considered the best of the two performances. If I asked several people to create and perform a new piece that could pass for Bach, one could be better in that context. But is replication/ duplication art? It goes beyond that. Some art does take more skill to perform and compose, and I would say is more the product of "genius" than others. That doesn't mean that one should appreciate the more complex, more skilled work, but one can use given frameworks to judge merit and quality. One can be both objective and subjective when it comes to art. Art is rather in the ears and eyes of the beholder itself; there is disagreement on what truly is art. I love Ed Wood, but will his art, his films, be considered as great as those of Fellini, Bergman or Kubrick? Would any think he was the best overall filmmaker of those three who have really studied film (or has their studying biased their expectations and conditions of "greatness" too much)? I genuinely love The Shagg's Philosophy of the World, but I will not put the Shagg's on the same pedestal of musical greats that I place Bach and Beethoven, or a great many musicians. Not all art is created equal, one might say. If I thrashed out on my piano, I wouldn't call it art. Heck, I;d barely call it art with any of my compositions (a reason why I don't share such stuff, play for others, and it's for my entertainment, is because I know I am neither a good musician, nor composer). Nor, despite all of the time writing at this forum, do I think that I would ever be considered a great writer. There are writers and thinkers that are better than I. I wouldn't claim that there is a best author, but that some are better than others, and so in a group of authors, one might very well be the best according to many well-accepted metrics. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: October 28 2019 at 15:22
The worst ever or your least-favorite ever?  ------------- https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sQD8uhpWXCw" rel="nofollow - It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...Road Rage Edition |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 28 2019 at 15:23
 ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: October 28 2019 at 15:30
And this is one of my points when someone thinks I'm being haughty about this and that ... as a reviewer, I do not follow the path of some megalomaniacs that resided for a long time in NY, LA, and London in their rock music reviews. And the same for film, as I have in the posts on the other section, I usually EXPLAIN why I feel this way and how I see it ... ... but try telling that to a rock fan that thinks I am thinking them not worthy of a word ... or two ... ... that would have killed my ability to review and love, both film and music ... and they were the two lovers that I have enjoyed the most all my life ... I would be in favor of a group of volunteers to keep an eye on reviews ... but we already know that the great reviewers that we have know what they are doing, or they would not be associated with PA. But I would prefer that some reviews be taken down ... into a thread about the album. That idea, might actually be a good one, and hopefully take away threads that hate this or that ... since a person can be sent to look at that thread first. Do I really want to see another thread hating APP or TFTO, or TLLDOB .... I really don't, because in my vision of these, that person is not aware of the artist thoughts and inspirations for the work itself ... which might help clarify the work. The groups themselves, will rarely, if EVER, explain these things ... it's a stupid thing to do ... like asking Picasso why he did that ... you know what he is going to tell you ... but, I have asked many times ... what is the inspiration, and many of the artists have said ... it was just there ... but many of them are excellent at discussing them, showing their intelligence and beauty at the same time ... one of the best? Robin Williamson of the ISB. And folks, what he says and mentions is not only artistic, it is more than progressive ... almost no words for it! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: ForestFriend
Date Posted: October 28 2019 at 22:24
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My opinion on this matter is that the words "best" and "worst" don't really have any objective value. It entirely depends on what is valued by the speaker. Like, What's the "best" vehicle? The fastest one? The safest one? The biggest one? The most expensive one? The most popular one? Those are objective qualities, but "best" is just whichever combinations and magnitudes of objective qualities suit you. I just can't understand "best" to be anything but subjective. So whenever I see someone asking "who's the best guitarist?" or "what's the best album?", I understand that to be synonymous with "favorite". If they're expecting an objective answer, they're foolish. ------------- https://borealkinship.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My prog band - Boreal Kinship |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: October 29 2019 at 01:46
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Is this a five minute argument? Or a full half hour? ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: October 29 2019 at 02:09
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Psychologically and statistically, 8 out of 10 people will irrationally argue subjective preference as being an objective standard. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: October 29 2019 at 02:17
I've heard one or two people here complain about album reviews being too subjective instead of being objective, but how can an album review possibly NOT be subjective when it's reviewed from one's own personal perspective with our own ears!?? An album review is a listener's own personal point of view where they give their valued opinion of an album, and that's just how it should be, although that's only my personal opinion, for what it's worth.  |
Posted By: essexboyinwales
Date Posted: October 29 2019 at 02:55
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I know what I like, and I like what I know.... |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: October 29 2019 at 03:07
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Maybe one day we can all swap heads on the interweb....baggsy I don't get Moskito's.... ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: October 29 2019 at 07:18
I've already told you that.
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Posted By: Braka1
Date Posted: October 29 2019 at 07:32
Even then, how is it objective? Is there some measurable quality in orchestration or composition which could unambiguously make one work better than another? Actually, let's keep it simple: If 'best' album or whatever was something which could be objectively quantified you wouldn't need to have a poll about it. You'd just go look it up, like album sales, or the world's tallest buildings.
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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: October 29 2019 at 08:36
Getting better in your wardrobe
Stepping one beyond your show |
Posted By: tamijo_II
Date Posted: October 29 2019 at 11:21
I do of
course in essence accept what you are saying and also the fact that some are at
least on a technical level measurable better than others. A for so many years I would
have agreed, but today I will respectfully disagree. Why? First of all from a social/ethnical point of view, people around the world are brought up with very different music/art, in music with very different scales and instruments and art with different tools and also completely different art history. As an
example you can mention Muslim traditions of abstract art, something that first
reached Christian culture centuries later. The Japanese/Asian concept of MA (間) or the cartoonish
(woodblocks) style that inspired Impressionism, but it the time was seen as naive
and bad art. A PA
example of this is Cheikha Rimitti Featuring Robert Fripp And Flea : Cheikha,
a beautiful Fripp album, but one of his only not at PA, why ? Because this
album is sounding too Arab and PA is a western site and see things from a
western point of view. Not bashing PA just a note that you ears are different based
on where we live/were brought up.. Your ears are listening with subjections based on the cultural upbringing and as such can’t be objective. Some people put effort into breaking the barriers, but still would have a top 10/20 even 100 "best" with only western music often/mostly in eng, But I bet if you ask even highly music educated people in Morocco Egypt Japan or China that would be very different. Could make more analyse of reasons why an objective criteria to pick the best art is impossible, Abstract better than Figurative ?, How to value ground breaking against how complex is the work ?. But I guess it would make this post unbearable long. ------------- Same person as this profile: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=22524" rel="nofollow - Tamijo |
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: October 29 2019 at 11:33
Certainly no shortage of views here. Personally, I think For What It's Worth is one of the best songs ever and it's a gas seeing young Stills and Young. Here's an example to help demonstrate why I distinguish best from favorite. Frank Zappa is one of the best. Great composer, fantastic guitar player. Yet I do not enjoy his music much. Not one of my favorites. I admire his work more than enjoy it.  ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: October 29 2019 at 11:39
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 29 2019 at 12:13
But I wouldn't disagree with any of that., so not sure where your disagreement lies. It depends on the context, and one's framework of analysis and reference points. Musical appreciation is highly subjective. We all bring our own cultural baggage and expectations, intellects, life experiences, associations and psychology to the music experience. No two people experience music in an identical way as it must be translated and interpreted by our brains. I'm not saying that one could say what is best objectively, or better if too dissimilar, it works better when one is comparing very similar things, and according to particular criteria (the criteria themselves show bias). It works best with limited parameters (which is why I use the example of two people attempting to perform the same piece of music, one is experienced and the other is not). I love much Western art music, jazz, raga, traditional Japanese music, Gamelan, chants of various kinds etc. and I wouldn't claim that one style is better than the other. If comparing music (in the sense of not looking for contrast), I would be more likely to compare very similar styles. I've always argued that one cannot even try to fairly judge the merits of music if it's outside of one's range of experience. I don't like it when people bash music of a style/form that they clearly have little experience with, and have often spoken out against that. I've seen claims at that "all music is subjective" not just musical appreciation, but music itself. Well, what is music? It can be seen as the relationship between the sound waves and the mind of the listener, and that is a subjective relationship. That said, one can also make objective statements about music (say, which note is being played, structure/form, timbre etc.). I'm mentioning this in part because others have made claims about the total subjectivity of music when it comes to determining what is better than another, to which I have said that one can determine forms of "better" within a defined set according to specific criteria from a non-individualistic subject-specific perspective, only a little less clunkily written. I have often argued against those who makes claims about "best music" and those who treat such as far more objective than it is. Which is better, Baroque music or modal jazz, apples or oranges? Each duo is different (while having some similarities), each can serve different needs and can be better-suited to an individual's "diet". An evaluation of music that exhibits a deep understanding of the music and culture is better (and I mean better objectively) than one that does not. The results of music where the composer's purpose was to emulate something, but failed to due to a lack of knowledge or ability, might well be considered worse than the opposite. EDIT: Your post came out full of formatting code, hope when removing it I didn't mess it up. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: tamijo_II
Date Posted: October 29 2019 at 12:30
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^After reading this - I'd say we agree. What can be left to clarify, every time "best" is used, is the exact parameter we use to extract an objective essence to make a comparison without being clouded by our subjective "taste". Will always be extremely hard to do. Is Zappa a better guitarist than Fripp ? Honestly I dont know - I just know that i love what Fripp have done more, and for a million subjective reasons.
------------- Same person as this profile: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=22524" rel="nofollow - Tamijo |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: October 29 2019 at 12:35
As far as I'm aware, I've never used the word "best" in any of my ten album reviews. 
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Posted By: Antelope Freeway
Date Posted: November 02 2019 at 19:16
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Possibly the best discussion topic ever! E-V-E-R! (take that grouchy complainers!) Seriously—the best football team is of course my favorite album! You'd be a tasteless fool to disagree. OK, enough nonsense - It would be extremely difficult for me to separate the two, usually. But I must say that album sales often have little to do with the quality of music on a record. I'm thinking in terms of comparing sales numbers for albums to wins for a sports team. Personally I would rather people tell me about their favorite records and why, than read a list of hottest selling records. Sometimes big sales and great music go hand in hand (the Beatles) but more often they don't (Ted Nugent solo records). Some of the Best records in my collection are difficult to listen to very often b/c of complexity or whatever. Some of my Favorites just make me feel good, though some of them can also be deep. ------------- Antelope Freeway |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 02 2019 at 20:53
I have been saying this for years, but the average "fan" and person that posts in this board still thinks/believes that the top ten is the only indicator, otherwise some other music would be listed there. Ask Guy Guden (Space Pirate Radio) about this sometime. If no one else hears anything, how do you know they are not good, impressive, or crap? .... ohhh wait ... it's because they are not on the list of top ten! And it continues here over and over in many of these threads ... even the Admins are no longer able to stop it, or make a statement, that this is hurting the very music that we are supposed to be supporting ... but does it really matter to all of them? ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |