Is Pink Floyd prog rock?
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Topic: Is Pink Floyd prog rock?
Posted By: TexasKing
Subject: Is Pink Floyd prog rock?
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 08:56
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Do you consider Pink Floyd prog or not? I think art rock is a much more appropriate term for their music than prog rock, so I voted no. Although their music is great I never found it to be complex compared to other bands as King Crimson, Yes, Rush, Genesis... |
Replies:
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 09:06
| nah, it's cha-cha-cha |
Posted By: TCat
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 09:09
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If you don't consider them progressive, then you don't really know all of their music. ------------- https://ibb.co/8x0xjR0" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 09:11
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Imagine watching saucerful of secrets live at pompeii and still not thinking Floyd is prog. Odd times=/=prog, with floyd its about unconventional structure and experimentation. Yes, floyd is prog. These discussions lead nowhere. ------------- The sun has left the sky... ...Now you can close your eyes |
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 09:24
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In the 70s, art rock bands were considered part of the prog scene - 10cc and Be Bop Deluxe being classic examples. So are Pink Floyd prog? Well,yes - in the same way that Donald Trump is a complete f*****g idiot. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 09:34
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I probably would describe Pink Floyd as art rock primarily, rather than Prog Rock (but the two need not be considered as different). Pink Floyd is more progressive rock than Prog-by-genre to me. I don't think that Pink Floyd is Prog per se, but I would argue that the band made progressive rock. It's quite diverse and it depends on the album, period somewhat, and even on the piece of music. I got into this a little while ago in another topic. The first album is more psych, the second is also primarily psych and experimental rock, but I would say it could also be described as progressive rock. Ummagumma is psych, experimental, and prog I think. AHM, my favourite, I do consider to be quite Prog, and Meddle. Dark Side of the Moon is art rock mostly to me. Wish you Were Here is Prog Art Rock to me, as is Animals. The Wall is more art rock/rock opera. I'm not interested in the later ones. Ultimately I would say yes and no. It didn't uniformly make what I would call progressive rock particularly, and I wouldn't describe it as Prog primarily for the career. Sorry, this could be a lot better written/ expressed, but I hope it still has some value for discussion. I'd need another option. It's not black and white to me, it's grey, and to me this "yes or no" presents too simple a dichotomy. It could be described as prog and not Prog, but I don't tend to think of bands as prog per se, I tend to think about specific music those bands made, and that music could be labelled in various ways. I might have added a "Yes and no, maybe so option". It depends quite a bit on how one defines/ describes progressive rock, as well as Progressive Rock (as a genre that need not be truly progressive) and how one parameterises music, as well as how much percentage one counts and many things. One could apply many labels to Pink Floyd across the discography, and even on individual albums. ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: geekfreak
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 09:36
Its a YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES!  ------------- Friedrich Nietzsche: "Without music, life would be a mistake." Music Is Live Two people are better off than one, for they can help each other succeed. Keep Calm And Listen To The Music… < |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 09:48
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Hi, Weird ... it doesn't take 5 minutes in this board to get this answer! I'm not sure I enjoy these questions that are making fun of the music (humor is OK with me ... enjoying the remastered Goons!!!!) ... but sometimes these like/dislike things are/arenot things ... are a bit ... too much for me. PF is a part of the experience in music that explored new areas with new sounds and atmosphere ... in that alone they would be considered "progressive", but I think a lot of folks will say no because it just got too big and became a song driven band, and no longer a trip band right after DSOTM. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Rick1
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 09:52
| In that famous interview, when asked if he considered Pink Floyd were progressive, Zappa answered 'sometimes'. Floyd - absolutely no doubts - right from the get go up until 'Wish You Were Here'. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 10:03
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Just not a simple yes or no. Overall I do think Pink Floyd were making progressive rock music, although in late 60s early 70s they called it psychedelic pop music, "prog" or "progressive" label was not being used that early on. If you draw hard lines they were psychedelic/acid/art rock band....later on in the mid 70s the progressive label became more prevalent to use, but those earlier labels fall under the progressive music umbrella. On DSOtM inside cover it tells the retailer where to file the album under, I think it says "popular music". Again, prog back then meant nothing was not a common label, it only means something to us the fan. Yes is way more the answer than No would ever be, I mean the argument is not if the music is progressive but rather why is it not. -------------   
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 10:35
in the 70's, Art Rock became "Prog" in the 90's. As for Floyd, if maybe not using tricky times sigs (except the odd case, like 7/4 in Money), Floyd was systematically reinventing themselves with every new album. So maybe not virtuosos, but they had more ideas and adventures than many other bands. As Wright one day said: technique is secondary next to ideas.
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TexasKing wrote:Posted By: MortSahlFan
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 10:47
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Of course they were. Just because they became very popular doesn't change that. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/c/LoyalOpposition https://www.scribd.com/document/382737647/MortSahlFan-Song-List |
Posted By: The Anders
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 10:49
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Reminds me a bit of the discussions about whether one should count Beethoven as classicism or romanticism. I believe I hear Pink Floyd as a synthesis of prog rock and art rock; there are elements of both. Since I am an art rock fan most of all, it should come as no surprise that among the Big 6, Pink Floyd is the band I enjoy the most. I also believe I would think of most krautrock as art rock rather than prog. But it seems to me that the definition of art rock is much more diffuse.
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Posted By: Braka1
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 11:02
Must prog be musically complex? My first feeling is 'no'. I think for instance a lot of newer metal bands squeak in as 'prog' partly because metal is one modern genre where technical virtuosity is highly valued. Could a minimalist work be prog? I'd have said 'yes', though no obvious rock example springs to mind. ------------- Believe me Pope Paul, my toes are clean |
Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 11:02
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I have a rather broad definition of prog, so definitely yes. I don't know why anyone would think that Pink Floyd were not prog. It seems to me that the question of Pink Floyd's progginess is about Dark Side Of The Moon. But in spite of its commercial success, that album is prog, and I fail to see why people think otherwise. ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 11:09
You need to listen to some Can and Neu! |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 11:11
| In my opinion, you would have to have a pretty narrow definition of prog to not consider PF to be prog(at least some of their albums). Prog is a big umbrella and it's not always about playing overly complex music in odd time changes(all the time), have really long songs, three minute instrumental sections or use synthesizers although PF have done all of those at least once. |
Posted By: TexasKing
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 11:26
DSOTM is not complex music in odd time changes. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 11:38
what's your definition of complex music? There are time changes all over that album, odd or not.
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Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 11:44
I watched a clip of Uncle Frank onstage with the Floyd and it was clear there was no rehearsal and that he was not that familiar with the music. They went into a tune, he stood for most of it doing nothing, then came up with a riff in the last half that he did not variate. The tune (I don't remember what it was) was not beyond Frank's ability, he just did not know it. This shows that what they were dong had a sophistication to it that was not easy to pick up on. ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 11:46
And this is all predicated by what you mean by 'Prog.'  ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: Mormegil
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 12:02
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Heck, yes! ------------- Welcome to the middle of the film. |
Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 12:05
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Is the Earth round? ------------- |
Posted By: Enchant X
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 12:07
I didn't vote because my answer is sort of but not really ... most of the prog elements in Pink Floyd's music are in the production not so much the bands instrumental playing. Their music is glorified blues with prog production 
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Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 12:24
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Can we just please obliterate the mindset that prog needs to have odd times. f**ks sake! ------------- The sun has left the sky... ...Now you can close your eyes |
Posted By: Braka1
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 12:27
Yeah, I didn't devote a lot of time to trying to think of examples of minimalist prog. I have all the Can albums up til Flow motion. OTTOMH not sure I'd call them minimalist, but they certainly weren't all about instrumental pyrotechnics (e.g. 'Aumgn'). But I suspect I'm not a typical Can fan. My fave Can song is 'Yoo Doo Right' ------------- Believe me Pope Paul, my toes are clean |
Posted By: Enchant X
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 12:36
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Posted By: Mirakaze
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 12:44
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I think they probably check enough boxes to be considered prog. I do take issue with them often being the first band one thinks of whenever prog is mentioned because I don't think they exemplify the core tenets of the genre as well as other classic 70s prog bands. |
Posted By: The Anders
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 13:03
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The first bands I come to think of when someone says prog are Genesis, Yes and Emerson Lake & Palmer. I guess for many people prog more or less means symphonic rock. In Denmark at least, the term 'symphonic rock' was used most frequently in the 70's and 80's. The word progressive at that time was mostly associated with something left wing (bands like Skousen & Ingemann, Røde Mor, Agitpop...). It must have been the same in Sweden where left wing rock of the 70's is commonly labelled "progg", or "den proggressive musikrörelsen" (the progressive music movement). |
Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 13:07
They are often the last band I mention to people who ask me what prog is, after they fail to recognise the other classic prog bands I mention. The problem with mentioning Yes or Genesis is that they only know their '80s music which does not provide a proper example of what prog is. ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 13:09
| "Prog" maybe not, but it is indeed "Progressive." |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 14:00
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lol yes ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 14:01
| How can they not be ?? |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 14:13
Partially by how you pigeonhole the band. Pink Floyd's music can be labelled in various ways (mind you, that's typical of progressive rock). What I was saying and others have too, is that Pink Floyd may be considered more progressive (adjective) rock on the whole than Prog (noun) by genre. I don't think of Pink Floyd as a quintessentially, stereotypically Prog band, and some of its music/albums I'd sooner describe as Prog than others. It rather depends upon how you define and parameterise Prog, as well as which Pink Floyd material you are referring to. I would be more likely to describe Pink Floyd on the whole as Art Rock rather than Prog Rock (but Art Rock and Prog are not mutually exclusive terms). ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 14:40
------------- A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now) |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 14:49
Floyd scores high on my prioritized list of Prog qualities because they did a lot of experimentation with timbre. Consider also that some music might have a lot of metrical complexity, but lacking in harmonic complexity or vice versa. ------------- A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now) |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 14:55
True. Art Rock can by synonymous with Prog in some models, and as I said, Art Rock and Prog are not mutually exclusive terms, or I should say not necessarily depending on the definition. At the least, they overlap. Here's the definition of Art Rock used at rateyourmusic (I would have my own elongated, verbose version, which would overlap with that, but I'm too lazy to think and type that out).
PA, by the way, for those who might remember, used to have an Art Rock category. ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 15:13
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Not really a solid yes or no thing to me. I don't really think of Pink Floyd as a prog rock band, but then they also have plenty of overlap of prog rock tropes. Art Rock fits better with (70's onwards) PF overall. ------------- https://gabebuller.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - New album! http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385 |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 15:31
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"The term art rock has been employed to describe several works of Rock music developed right after the 1960s Psychedelic Rock explosion." [RYM] Hard to put Floyd in this category since they are front and center as well as a downright canonical example of Psychedelic Rock, at least in the British version of Psychedelic Rock. This logically swoops KrautRock up in Art Rock too, btw. "Ever since its beginnings, art rock has shared connections, musical ties and even presents apparent overlaps with Experimental Rock and Progressive Rock (eventually also bearing a relationship with styles like Art Pop, Glam Rock, Krautrock and Jazz-Rock). While art rock strives to find a level of complexity similar to the one present in these two affiliated genres, it generally features a mix of rock music that tends to follow certain Pop-based structures or patterns along with the aforementioned set of eclectic influences and certain degree of complexity and conceptuality, in contrast to the more classical/jazz-mimicking or inspired patterns of prog suites, or the more radical and angular experimental rock." [RYM]. Atom Heart Mother and Meddle are classical-inspired suites. True, there are more traditional song-based pieces the same albums. However, Harold the Barrel is on the same album as Fountain of Salmacis. Maybe Genesis isn't Prog either. ------------- A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now) |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 15:34
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I don't mind. They sound as they sound. That's fine by me. |
Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 15:43
Ohhh ok got it, So epitaph by King Crimson, not prog? Ok! Les Sinq Saisons by Harmonium isn't particularly overflowing with Odd times off the top of my head, not prog? Allman Brothers Whipping Post, well hell, thats got an odd meter in the intro, its prog! All you need is love by the beatles has a few measures of 5 as well, that's all it takes I guess, its prog! Solisbury Hill by Peter Gabriel has some measures of 7 as well, certainly more progressive than pink floyd, band with several complex 10-20 minute epics with unconventional structure and instrumentation. See how silly this mindset is. Anybody can write a song with odd times, as many as they want, but not many can push the boundaries and progress music. Floyd, most certainly did. ------------- The sun has left the sky... ...Now you can close your eyes |
Posted By: The Anders
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 15:45
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I don't think they sound as they sound. |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 15:46
Nice. Expand!
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 16:25
Genesis is and isn't Prog depending upon the song and album, I would posit. That said I would not consider an album not Prog just because it had a pop song on it, and one might say that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.... I would and have argued that Pink Floyd fits different labels, both on the album, from track to track, and across the career. I think Pink Floyd made Psych, Space Rock, Art Rock, Prog Rock and more. While I think that Pink Floyd started as a very psychedelic band in the 60s, it became less so later on. If Art Rock is a phenomenon that grew out of the 60s psychedelic explosion, that would not preclude Pink Floyd from having developed in an art rock direction. I would describe Dark Side of the Moon as an Art Rock album, not Piper at the Gates of Dawn. I look at it on an album by album level, and RYM is specifically referring to Pink Floyd during a 70s stage of music in the article. I wouldn't describe The Final Cut as Psych. I like labeling by the album, so I often having a problem calling a band just one thing or another for all of it (especially when the band is reasonably diverse). That creates a false dichotomy. To me Genesis and Pink Floyd made Prog and non-Prog music, but people quite often label bands by one genre or description despite diversity. Earlier in this thread I wrote about Pink Floyd, "It's quite diverse and it depends on the album, period somewhat, and even on the piece of music... The first album is more Psych, the second is also primarily Psych and Experimental Rock, but I would say it could also be described as Progressive Rock. Ummagumma is Psych, Experimental and Prog I think. Atom Heart Mother, my favourite, I do consider to be quite Prog, and Meddle too. Dark Side of the Moon is art rock mostly to me. Wish you Were Here is Prog Art Rock to me, as is Animals. The Wall is more art rock/rock opera... Ultimately I would say yes and no... I'd need another option. It's not black and white to me, it's grey, and to me this "yes or no" presents too simple a dichotomy. It could be described as prog and not Prog, but I don't tend to think of bands as prog per se, I tend to think about specific music those bands made, and that music could be labelled in various ways. I might have added a "Yes and no, maybe so option". It depends quite a bit on how one defines/ describes progressive rock, as well as Progressive Rock (as a genre that need not be truly progressive) and how one parameterises music, as well as how much percentage one counts and many things. One could apply many labels to Pink Floyd across the discography, and even on individual albums." I might be totally missing your points, and logic, cause I'm not really seeing it. As a sort of genre, some Krautrock band albums would be considered Art Rock, others probably not, among other labels they could be given. Krautrock is quite diverse and bands in Krautrock are often quite diverse (delve into various musical forms, and change over time). By the way, I'm wary about snipping bits and pieces often, because I think then you are liable to lose context. ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: foregonillusions
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 17:00
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Forget whether they played progressive rock (sometimes); I just wish they were interesting! |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 17:16
you do know "interesting" is subjective
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 17:37
They are the first band most people think of when they think of prog but it's only because they are by far the most well known band who gets the prog label. Other bands were more proggy but I think PF were proggy enough. Regardless of what anyone thinks the fact is they are considered by most music websites to be progressive rock. Sometimes they are called psych and sometimes space rock too. The early stuff was psych maybe but by the time of AHM they were definitely in the prog camp(imo).
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 17:41
Although I agree with you Doug, some people think of them as experimental rather than prog and experimental is not necessarily prog(although I suppose it can be). But to think of PF as just a regular rock band? Really? Uh no. There has to be some category for their earlier progressive music at least. If not prog then what? Experimental might suffice for the studio part of Ummagumma but not much else. I think the problem is too many people are just thinking of their radio hits or maybe the fact that they are on the radio at all and so because of that they can't be prog. It's maybe the same reason some people don't consider Rush prog.
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Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 17:48
Blondie did have odd metres, Kajagoogoo have odd metres, Devo have odd metres - are they Prog ?? |
Posted By: VianaProghead
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 18:22
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Are you kidding me? Prog rock or art rock, what is the real difference? Somehow all are prog in a way or another. Prog is a very eclectic way to see rock music. Prog is a multitude of different ways to see the great rock music that progresses. This is the reason why I love prog music. And this is the reason why that there are so many sub-genres of prog. This is the reason why this site exists. So, definetelly they're prog, in their very own way, and they're so respected here. And don't tell me that they aren't complex in their own way. ------------- "PROG IS MY FERRARI". Jem Godfrey (Frost*) |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 18:52
Hi, I think the difference is what is not considered most these days, because too many folks are only voting on their favorite songs, and deciding on the OP based on one song so to speak. "Krautrock" was not just "music" and it deserves to be considered "art rock" with one sad side to it ... when all those bands get listed as "art rock", most people won't bother listening to it anymore. Why do I call is "art" ... because there was theater and film, and literature that was doing virtually the same thing as "krautrock" was doing, and no one went and called it "krautfilm", or "krauttheater", or "krautlit" ... but I like to give people an example ... the difference between Klaus Kinski and Damo Suzuki ... is NONE ... one had a camera stay on him until he fell down ... and the other had the microphone on until the whole thing died out. The only sad side is that not enough people even give a damn about KK and what he did with Werner Herzog, who was one of the people that filmed AD2, btw ... not to mention that he ended up getting Popol Vuh music and made films out of them, so to speak ... I kinda doubt that Florian actually composed any music for him, as he was/is (Herzog) a visual artist and easily colors any music he comes across. That process, in itself is very "art'y". ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 19:12
| ^ Kinski always played the ‘perfect madman’......which he actually was. |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 19:43
Especially these days with all the crossover prog and more mainstream stuff that passes as prog. The bottom line is prog is a big umbrella that has enough room for a lot of different subgenres(this site itself should provide enough proof of that).
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 20:53
"are they Prog ??"........no they are Devo!! -------------
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Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 21:05
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 21:17
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Here, skip to 5:45 (if you want to get to the relevant part right away). I thought of this since you guys mentioned Devo. ;) Unfortunately I wasn't able to embed it this time but the link definitely should work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eln3J6BxWN0&t=486s" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eln3J6BxWN0&t=486s |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 21:25
| ^ I watched that last year - I miss ol’ Frank. |
Posted By: Enchant X
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 21:50
also regarding King Crimson 21st schizoid man makes that a progressive rock album .. the song epitaph makes it s symphonic prog album. Moonchild makes it experimental prog and Court of The Crimson King Makes it symphonic prog with some time signature values, I talk to the wind shows they can write simple songs with great beauty...I know my stuff I know what I`m talking about been into prog for over 40 years. We will have to agree to disagree on this one with all due respect. If you looked pink floyd in the eye and asked them if they were strictly a progressive rock band I think they would laugh at you , Floyd are many things to many people but the heart of Floyd is soul and blues with some mild symphonic attributes IMO.  Rush were very progressive from Caress of Steel to Signals BTW outside of this range Rush were more art Rock with one or two progressive songs thrown in on each album to show they still had that in their agenda. I seriously think because I`m a drummer and percussionist my value of prog is based on what I`m challenged to play or emulate ... pink floyd is a cakewalk. King Crimson is a nightmare .. and Rush is a challenge but doable....just, but I really have to concentrate. The Band I love to drum along with most that suits my style is Kansas, I'm comfortable playing Kansas and still challenged
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Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 22:32
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So Set the Controls for the Heart Of the Sun is a glorified bluesy, jammed-out pentatonic Pop/Rock song. Man, Slayer must be a Pop band then - you know - verse/chorus/verse/solo 4/4 short song format ....... 😐 |
Posted By: Enchant X
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 22:40
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Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 22:41
| Have to say I am not anymore interested at all to talk is some band prog or not (so much discussed here). Pink Floyd has been one of my biggest faves soon 40 years, I don´t care in what genre they belong. |
Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 22:53
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I think these threads are so useless because nobody ever changes anyones minds. People believe what they believe and it’s just a never ending debate. ------------- The sun has left the sky... ...Now you can close your eyes |
Posted By: Enchant X
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 22:57
this topic is far too hot to shut it all down , it's just too interesting to stop now. So long as we are all respectful for each others opinions I see no problem with it, I certainly respect each opinion given so far in this thread, it's really made me think
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Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 23:26
| it's hard to say--so much of it is easy to listen to---not really challenging like a lot of good prog---but its fine with me if it is--- |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 23:28
| Sorry, I can get a bit arrogant at times, but at the end of the day, no matter what Floyd is, they are legendary, with great music and mass-appeal. It’s interesting to how many different opinions there are out there on what is and what isn’t. How boring if we all agreed ?? |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 23:46
Mass appeal isn't necessarily a bad thing. I think some people just have to hate the most popular bands. There's people who don't like the Beatles also although I think some people just have to be different for the sake of being different. If they truly don't like PF or the Beatles fine but personally I don't see how anyone could think it's bad music even if you personally don't like them. When I was younger I was big into Led Zeppelin. Even though I'm not really much into them anymore I would never say they are bad but whatever.
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Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 23:52
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Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 00:54
Congrats OP on making the perfect thread to keep this stale board busy, LOL   .For real, I'd consider Pink Floyd prog rock. Many will debate their earlier work as psych/space rock, but I'm firm in calling their masterpiece records progressive rock exemplified (and I don't even like DSoTM!). ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 02:00
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The music of Pink Floyd is of course what it is. The real question then becomes what you think prog rock is. I've said that I have a rather broad definition, but I can elaborate on that by saying that I tend not to regard prog rock as a type of music, but as an attitude. This view is supported by the number of disparate sub-genres that are covered by the umbrella of prog rock on this site. ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 04:33
For me it doesn't matter how difficult something is to play. I respect virtuosity but it's not a primary value in music. It's worthwhile because you can do something great that others cannot do, so use it to the music's advantage, and don't forget, the non-virtuosos can do great music, too, because that doesn't come out of virtuosity. (And there have always been virtuosos, "progression" has nothing to do with that.) The thing is, chances are most drummers can play what Nick Mason plays (I'm not a drummer myself so I can't tell), but could they have come up with it? Could they have had the taste and musicality?
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 05:09
I might define or describe Prog in various ways, and please forgive any repetition. Prog means more than one thing to me, and I support this site having progressed from the more typical generic Prog, and having a much wider Prog umbrella, or Progum as I used to call it. Progressive rock (where progressive is an adjective) and Progressive Rock (noun, as a genre) are not necessarily equal, or synonymous, to me. Sometimes I can see progressive rock as just meaning experimental rock, some of it being more rock-related. One way I've looked at progressive rock is that it is music based on rock (or which draws on rock or has a rock component) that seeks to expand the rock lexicon. It's unconventional rock, or non-generic rock in a sense, that progresses rock from the conventions of the rock-genre -- it frees itself of rock-canonical expectations. It plays with form and structure, experiments, and brings in elements and techniques from other genres. Often it fuses genres, commonly by incorporating classical and jazz qualities to create a rock hybrid, but it can incorporate and draw on all styles of music, and create its own. It can progress so far from rock-standards that it ceases to seem like rock at all. It may turn things inside out and upside down. Often it draws on the experimentation and "far out" qualities of psychedelic bands (60s psych was an important influence). Some Prog is more progressive in the sense of being forward-thinking, and experimental, than others. We even have the oxymoronical regressive Progressive Rock (gorp as I like to call, regressive, backwards prog). It can be an approach to trying to create something really unique and unconventional, and be adjectivally progressive, and some Prog just imitates common Prog genre conventions, sometimes of its subgenre. While in one sense I think of progressive rock as being unconventional, and freeing itself of stereotypes, some is stereotypically Prog (Prog generic). I tend to think of ELP as the quintessential Prog act, and I'm not big on ELP. Prog is not really a badge of humour for me, and the Prog term in and of itself often is not the best descriptor for the music (it often works better when other attributes are given and various styles are referenced). Much of what I like I think of as falling under the greater Prog umbrella. Prog might be seen as trying to elevate rock music to a high art, to be taken as seriously as Art Music/Academic music, but a lot of it is not terribly intellectual. It can be fun, it can be and do so many things. Prog can be complex, but it can also be simple. I don't think Prog is just one thing, and what is Prog can be in the ear of the behearer (I expect that there are some commonalities to typical Prog that we all would mostly agree on). There is more conventional Prog and less or unconventional Prog. It overlaps with other genres.I like there being so much variety. I don't consider myself to be a Prog fan,it covers so much territory and there is a lot that I don't like, but I do appreciate progressive music (that need not be rock in the least). While I think of being unconventional as a hallmark of progressive rock, sometimes I think about the distinction between conventional prog and unconventional Prog. I commonly appreciate the quirky and unconventional, but I like much which is conventional (for its ilk) too. Various "Prog purists" have complained about PA covering so much music, but I like the variety, and if the music covered only the rather vanilla music that they want here, I would not be nearly so interested. I have wanted this site to keep expanding those parameters. I understand about having some limits so that this doesn't become "All Music Archives", but prog can be so encompassing, and I wouldn't want this site to be really generic. To some it basically just refers to variations of Symphonic Prog. To some we traveled too far outside of the rock framework in certain cases, and to some the less mainstream, more exotic and unconventional music that is covered, panhead music as some would call it, is a turn-off, and purportedly this niche caused various people to leave the site in disgust. I would like to think that progressive admirers would be more open-minded, open-eared, liberal-minded, and essentially more progressive than that. An ode to the panheads: We are the panheads strong and free, We use those pans when we need to pee. ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: Enchant X
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 05:37
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 05:55
Hi, Are you suggesting that Damo Suzuki is not a charter member of the Magic Theater? Another perfect madman with a microphone, and not being filmed! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 06:04
Exactly, I thought of Ringo, too, when I wrote this.
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 06:32
Hi, The more music I hear these days, the more I think that no, most drummers can not do what Nick did for so many years, because he is not exactly a metronomic machine ... he is a FEEL and TOUCH drummer, the kind that there are not many around these days ... and his drumming was NEVER associated with the dreaded punching of the snare drum for your ears to know that was the 4th beat (or whichEVEr!!!) ... one of the worst things taught in drum school, for which you can use a metronome, and you don't EVER need a drummer to do it for you! ... it just shows the mentality and the intelligence of the music and the players I have a feeling! How is it that in the early days of prog, so many folks could play against the beat and still come together so beautifully and we remember all the music? And continue to search for more music that was not as well known? There are very few drummers, even over the years, that are strictly sensitive to the sound and the music, and their "punch" is not the snare, and neither is it to announce that the 4th beat is here! One other example, is a band I kinda reviewed in email only, that wanted to fly and did some nice things, very progressive, but it had a rather sad drummer, that did not like the music going away from what he knew, and every 20 or 30 bars (pick a number) he would signal with a really hard snare hit that he wanted to go back to easy street, and his drumming on a developed piece of music went back to the same thing, even though it was very different than the opening ... all it says is that the guy is not listening to the music is afraid to try something he is not able to keep up with ... he had no "touch" at all ... and I would never suggest that this guy can not get better, but he needs to listen to a couple of different drummers to get better ideas of what needs/could to be done. The question is ... is it progressive? And I will say yes because no one else has been able to "feel" the music so well and provide such a different touch that helped define PF so well (just like Ringo did for the Beatles). It ends up being that people (and mostly drummers) never even realized why Moonie and Bonzo were so different ... they think it was all just quick trix and not enough cereal!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: DarkTower
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 08:18
| Of course, Pink Floyd is prog, but not their whole discography is prog. |
Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 09:05
Nearly two years ago, I created a poll asking which group were the proggiest, Genesis or The Residents: https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=114818&KW=Genesis+Residents&PN=1" rel="nofollow - https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=114818&KW=Genesis+Residents&PN=1 The vote was overwhelmingly in favour of Genesis: 28 - 8 I didn't vote in that poll, but was surprised, perhaps even disappointed that the majority had a rather narrow view of what is "prog". ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 09:47
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Ok, I voted Yes but this is my opinion: 1) From 1967 to 1969, PF's music was psychedelic, proto-prog. Like the Beatles PF have made some tracks that can be considered prog, or avant-garde, but overall their first three albums, years 1967-69, don't have much of prog. - the first two albums by Family, 1968 and 1969 are more prog. - But ok, here in PA there is the Psych-Space-Rock prog and so... but psychedelia, in my opinion, is proto-prog. 2) In 1970, PF make a transformation, I am referring to Atom Heart Mother: the suite is definitely prog and also the song by Wright. There is almost nothing more of Psychedelic. Meddle only replicates the AHM formula with less imagination and creativity. PF therefore have a progressive turn, which however will never be total, because when they write songs, the structure of the songs will almost always remain simple and linear, only that with time the arrangements will become more abundant and the production sophisticated, to the point that the starting point for a song will be expanded until it becomes a suite. The Dark side of the Moon is a particular album, where the progressive part is mainly due to the production experiments which are the continuation of what both they and the Beatles did in the sixties. However, from 1970 to 1977, that is until Animals, PF can be considered prog, and the most prog albums of all arrive late: Wish You Were Here and Animals, two albums made of long very dilated songs. 3) The Wall and The final cut have almost nothing prog, at best they are prog-related, as well as those that follow. Anyway, thanks to Pink Floyd for their capacity to evolve. ------------- "Happiness is real only when shared" |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 09:53
Oh, good lord. Even the most commercially accessible song on the album, "Money" has one of the weirdest time signatures for a prog song. There are very few 7/4-4/4 selections in the rock canon, plus for the era the innovative use of musique concrete as the basis for the intro beat and percussion was novel for listeners unaware of Edgar Varèse, Pierre Boulez or The Mothers. Which would account for 90% of rock fans at the time. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 12:40
Ok, my question for you is this. What is more of a prog song, Dogs, or Turn it on Again by Genesis? There's a boat load of time changes in TIOA but most of Dogs is standard. ------------- The sun has left the sky... ...Now you can close your eyes |
Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 13:28
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Obviously. ------------- The Prog Corner |
Posted By: Enchant X
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 14:20
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Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 14:28
Stop killing me with kindness dammit! As long as we both agree floyd is great, its all alright. ------------- The sun has left the sky... ...Now you can close your eyes |
Posted By: The Anders
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 15:31
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I noticed someone mentioning "Set the Controls For the Heart of the Sun" as pentatone. Now, the pentatone scale avoids semitones, and the melody in "Set the Controls..." is based on a melodic phrase that contains a semitone interval (between I and bII - as in "SET the conTROLS" and so on). Also, the descending instrumental riff between verse and chorus has a semitone interval. I'd rather say it has an Arab flavour due to the II note being a lower one (also the Phrygian mode contains a lower II note). |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 15:34
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They were rhythm & blues, man. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 15:36
I remember that topic. I wrote a very long response to it, found it overly verbose (like far too much of my stuff at this site), and didn't post it. I often write posts that I don't post, mostly because I think the attempts at humour won't go down well because it is not funny. I saved it to Notepad to work on later, but then I didn't get around to it. Basically my response boiled down to "I find Genesis more Prog generic (for the 70s period) and The Residents more progressive". It was long because I wanted to define the words as I was using them ( I did mention notions of progginess, Prog and progressive rock) and to give specific examples to better explain and justify it. I got into similar notions of Prog-by-genre and progressive music as I did in that post you took that excerpt of mine from, which also could have done with some serious editing, and would have been better had I tied it into Pink Floyd. The ode is a silly little something I thought of when showering at 1:30 am (no sleep yet again). I shower to try to get my brain to work, but I'd need more than a little brain washing. ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: April 27 2020 at 01:48
Exactly, just like Genesis and the Moody Blues; prog bands who didn't make exclusively prog rock. This is a surprising debate to be having a prog rock forum; whether or not the biggest prog rock band of all time is prog rock. Weird. I guess, for some, prog rock has to mean incredibly complex music with long and meandering solo's, and spacey, historical or fantasy lyrical themes. It simply doesn't. I think part of the problem is that many prog fans don't like the fact that Pink Floyd appealed to non prog fans too, which undermines their prog credibility. In reality, a band which can break so many musical rules and be progressive and cerebral, while also shifting hundreds of millions of albums, is a band with a special and unique formula. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: April 27 2020 at 16:03
| From my recollection they were just Pink Floyd in the seventies and were not bracketed with ELP, Yes and Genesis and the like. Not sure why that was, I guess they were just more reserved and considered a bit mainstream. Also DSOTM put them in a different league along with the likes of Zep and Queen ie bands that were so big they created their own space. |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 27 2020 at 16:06
Rush weren't exclusively prog either. The only major prog band that I know of who comes close to that(not counting "second tier" bands) would be King Crimson. It's debatable if the eighties were exclusively prog but everything else they did was.
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 27 2020 at 17:17
Yes, heaven forbid a band sells more than a few albums to their mum and dad and Uncle Bertie. Prog bands must, by their very nature, be unsaleable. No one is allowed to understand their obscure lyrics and endless noodling except a single fan in Finland.* *No Finns were injured in the making of this post. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: April 28 2020 at 00:55
I think we may be looking at this the wrong way round . Floyd were very respected generally while 'prog rock' was considered to be some sort of aberration and self indulgent excuse for 'musos' to indulge in overly self engrandising technical instrumental based music. It was not meant to be a positive thing to be 'prog'. Floyd didn't want to be it!
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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: April 28 2020 at 01:05
True. "The press" largely despised "prog rock." Even when all the bands streamlined their sound, that stigma followed them. Musician's review of Big Generator read simply: "Just say no."  ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: April 28 2020 at 02:15
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Floyd were many things..including prog/progressive...just like most other interesting acts of the day. PA in a nutshell: Somebody makes beautiful music ——> (some of) the audience digs it ——> some don’t and start making theories about boxes and genres as to why X band is poor/not prog. Shakespeare once wrote something very clever about a rose...perhaps the same can be applied to music. Put another way: if Floyd were described as proto-baroque post-rock...would the music sound any different? ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: LAM-SGC
Date Posted: April 28 2020 at 07:29
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This is why genres are so pointless, name me one big so called prog rock band that played the same type of music on every album throughout it's career. Pink Floyd started as a space rock band. They then produced a few good prog albums. Then a load of mediocre rock albums, the worst of which was The Wall. Then out of nowhere a brilliant ambient album, The Endless River. |
Posted By: TexasKing
Date Posted: August 06 2020 at 04:27
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Pink Floyd is one of the BIGGEST rock bands of all time and most people on ProgArchieves consider them prog? I'm really surprised. None of the big prog bands are in the same league with them popularity-wise. |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: August 06 2020 at 04:54
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Is the Pope Catholic?
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Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: August 06 2020 at 08:22
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Uh oh, this thread just got revived.... grabs popcorn* ------------- The sun has left the sky... ...Now you can close your eyes |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: August 06 2020 at 19:29
How does popularity have anything to do with it? They were one of the biggest rock bands of all time. Yeah, so? You could say Genesis were one of the biggest rock bands of all time too or at least they were in the 80's. Prog is a subgenre of rock anyway. It's almost as though you are suggesting that because they were so popular they couldn't possibly be prog.
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Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: August 06 2020 at 19:42
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Yes, thanks for playing ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: August 06 2020 at 19:48
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Personally i would consider them more crossover prog at least from Dark Side on. Before that they truly were proggy psych rock. YES, prog but with crossover success. -------------  https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |