Statues & remembering the past
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Topic: Statues & remembering the past
Posted By: Blacksword
Subject: Statues & remembering the past
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 04:39
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All around the world, statues of divisive historical figures are being taken down, either by force or through locally made democratic decisions. Should all future statues and monuments, erected to commemorate characters from the past, be restricted to sports legends and artists (including musicians) and exclude anyone known for their political, military or religious work and influence? Bearing in mind that one persons hero, is another's villain. Genuine question. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Replies:
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 05:11
Even that is unlikely to appease all, witness the Margaret Court Arena controversy.
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Blacksword wrote:Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 05:22
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Tricky one really. I suspect there are a number of sports legends and artists who have a less than squeaky clean past. I guess the question is does the good done by someone outweigh the bad? To be honest I don't know the answer. The recent Baden Powell case impacts me as a Scout Leader and I must admit I wasn't aware he had any dealings with the Nazis but we have to look at the facts and make a judgement from there.
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Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 09:19
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I tend to think it's OK to put up a statue if somebody is genuinely esteemed at some point, and to put it down if times change and the general evaluation of that person changes, too. I don't think a statue must appease everyone, but if a too big part of the population for too good reasons thinks this person shouldn't be honoured in this way, then the statue should go - or not even be erected in the first place. Not that complicated really. Just say goodbye to the idea that values are eternal. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 09:51
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"Remembering the past...." is the key here in your post title, which IMO needs to be appreciated more. It is the past and it is history. I think we all know without the past/history we cannot move forward and or correct injustices. Going forward I seriously doubt you will see anymore statues or memorials or such erected of any political, military or religious figures. Maybe in countries like N.Korea, but in most other I doubt it, in that case I am ok with it. What I don't think is right is removing these statues that for sure have some negative connotations towards civil rights and such because we need these to remind us what and how not to behave. I don't think we can count on school history books and the internet to teach what happened in the past. The perception just needs to change, in many cases its not about applauding these people but rather looking at them with question and a dark mood, in some cases disgust. Early history and early growth of countries was not pretty at all, it was dog eat dog in both politics and business and social welfare. I always giggle when I hear people say, "I wish I would have grown up in the 1700 or 1800s.." No you don't! -------------   
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 10:03
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We must never erase history, warts and all, but a statue isn't history, its a tribute. As a southerner, I think Confederate statues should come down. They were erected during the jim crow era as a way of reminding black people who was still in charge. The confederacy was the worst thing that ever happened to the south. Keep it as important history, but get rid of the glorious statue tributes. As far as erasing history goes, %50 of southerners were opposed to the civil war. Where is their statue? Where is there a statue for southerners who spoke out against the confederacy? Where are the statues for those who helped slaves escape? ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 10:24
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Nazi flags, swastikas and statues of Adolph are banned in Germany. Makes perfect sense to me. The history of that dismal era will still be remembered without any of those props. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 10:43
Statues erected by Confederate sympathizers 50 to 100 years after the Civil War (and nearly all were erected between 1890 and 1950, with the majority between 1900-20), were put there not as some "reminder how not to behave"; on the contrary, they were erected as a mythical glorification of a South that really never actually existed as well as a warning to blacks and symbols of white supremacy. The majority were erected when Jim Crow Laws were being enacted in every state across the South, when segregation was legitimized, and when the Ku Klux Klan had reached its zenith of power. They ennoble rebels against the United States, and make heroes of those who fought for the rights of slave-holders. You want history? Read a book. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 11:01
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That's the point......I am sure you can ask young people about Jim Crow today and not many have an idea, and then later on none of them will know and risk it happening again. We know about it.......for those with kids here ask them if they know about Jim Crow and the KKK, unless you explain it to them the knowledge will end. Don't forget we will all die soon. Remember history has a funny way of repeating itself..... -------------
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 11:05
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Yes, we'll all die soon. But that's why Greg (Dark Elf) said to read a book. That's where history really resides, not in some old senile person's mind. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 11:21
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I'm okay with a statue commemorating what a stupid disaster the confederacy was, but that statue does not exist because some want to erase history as it really was. ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 11:22
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And that's the problem with history remembered. It's always altered by bias. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 11:25
They shouldn't. I call things that happen now "tolerant vandalism". ------------- Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour) |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 11:55
So all correct/accurate history only lies in books??  And all the people that experienced these things in history are senile......cmon Steve.-------------
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 12:12
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 12:16
So you're willing to accept a statue erected solely for white supremacy by white supremacists (if we are being accurate), but you're worried about history books being inaccurate? That is hilarious. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 14:54
One of those exchanges where you both make very valid points. What I would say, as an avid reader, especially of history, is that history books range from the absolutely source driven material to the books written with an inherent bias from the perspective of the historians personal viewpoint, I.e. such and such was wrong, or so and so made a mistake. History is very rarely completely unsullied by this, and, don’t forget, much of history is written by the winning side. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 15:31
great great post and yes... you nailed it.. until you tripped right before you stepped on the plate. fighting for the rights of slave owners... no.. they did not. No more than we fought for Big Oil Companies in Kuwait and Iraq. No more than the north fought to free the slaves. Slavery is not why either side fought. Remember the Civil War nearly happened 30 years before it did and slavery had nothing to do with it.. that war was destined to happen regardless of whether it was slavery or tariffs as north and south grew so far apart in so many ways.. slavery was just one of the ways. but nice recovery from the trip... history has many interpretations.. thus not just a book.. many are needed to fully understand history. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 16:02
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^ You might want to read the speech that the man second in command to Lee gave before the civil war. It was very much centered on the role of the black man in the south. ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 16:28
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no doubt.. as might know.. I spent years researching William Barksdale when writing my book on him. One of the greatest fighting Generals this country ever produced.. and also dyed in the wool racist. Of course there were elements for which slavery was prime... but most fell in Lee's camp. A heartfelt duty to their states more than a defense of slavery. Just as there were those in the north that wanted that war to end slavery but the abolitionists were a minority as much as the Fire Breathers were.. The war wa snot about slavery.. Lincoln could nothing to end the practice.. it was not immediately threatened. As I alluded to our inevitable Civil War nearly happened about tariffs decades earlier. Both were symptoms for what really drove north and south to war. The breakdown in compromise over an issue this country had to settle that had smoldered since independence from England. For most included damn everyone who actually fought killed and gave the ultimate sacrifice.. to say it was about slavery completely misses the point why hundreds and hundreds of thousand fought and died. It was about preserving the union for those in the north.. While in the south is was about what all held more dear than that union.. their states..and states rights to determine the way they lived.. not Washington DC. That was what that war about was about and more to Greg's point.. what those soldiers fought for. They either fought for preserving the union.. or their rights of their states.. and the duty, loyalty each felt towards it.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 17:26
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^ I agree that the way I was taught at school (in the south none the less) that the war was all about slavery is an untrue simplification, but the confederate speech in question is enough to let you know that the danger of losing the slaves was well on the confederates mind. I understand that Lincoln did not make it an issue until he was afraid Europe was going to help the south. And yes, I know all about the tariffs, I am from the south you know, and I have heard my share of late night drunken lectures on what the civil war was really about.  ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 17:39
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so then you see it was an conflict based not on slavery but on a differing ideology.. of what this country should be. Having never truly been settled after its creation. It was going to take a war to settle it. .and it did.. partially hahaha but that is for 'another thread'
However.. what happened after the war.. you bet your ass it was racially motivated as Greg correctly noted and all while the North imposed its own brand of slavery.. economic.... Funny..getting back on topic. One of the more infamous Confederate Statues came down in the wake of Floyd's murder.. the one right down the street here in deeply blue (80-20 like) Alexandria. The with its back turned toward D.C.. and the north. Only thing missing was the uplifted middle finger  and not a peep was heard from anyone .. in fact I believe the DotC who owned it were the ones behind its removal. As David has been saying.. oh the times.. they are a changin' ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 17:46
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^ There was certainly no moral high ground on either side. ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 17:50
absolutely f**king not  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 17:55
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Racism on both sides. To the south, blacks were slaves. To the north, freed slaves were a great way to punish the south. The blacks were left to fend for themselves after the north walked away from the situation. ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 18:02
You are buying into a long-held myth engendered by Southern sympathizers about the Noble Cause. The Civil War, or more precisely, Secession, was entirely about slavery. It was not about states' rights, except in that the right implied was slavery. Taxes and tariffs, although they were an issue, were not the main reason for secession (because some Southern states like Louisiana were profiting on the current tariff laws). Every Confederate state had a prominent slave-holder clause in their Articles of Secession (or "Declarations of Causes" as some states referred to it). Every Confederate state makes the defense of slavery a clear objective, some states (Mississippi, Virginia, Texas and South Carolina) argue that slavery should be expanded, and Mississippi and Georgia point out that slavery accounts for a huge portion of the Southern economy. And that was transferred into the Constitution of the Confederate States: ARTICLE IV (Pertinent sections in red) -- Sec. 2. (I) The citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States; and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired. (2) A person charged in any State with treason, felony, or other crime against the laws of such State, who shall flee from justice, and be found in another State, shall, on demand of the executive authority of the State from which he fled, be delivered up, to be removed to the State having jurisdiction of the crime. (3) No slave or other person held to service or labor in any State or Territory of the Confederate States, under the laws thereof, escaping or lawfully carried into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor; but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such slave belongs, or to whom such service or labor may be due. Sec. 3. (I) Other States may be admitted into this Confederacy by a vote of two-thirds of the whole House of Representatives and two-thirds of the Senate, the Senate voting by States; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any other State, nor any State be formed by the junction of two or more States, or parts of States, without the consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned, as well as of the Congress. (2) The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make allneedful rules and regulations concerning the property of the Confederate States, including the lands thereof. (3) The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States. P.S. And that's why one reads books, as opposed to gawking at statues. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 18:12
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no Greg... love you man.. but unlike John I am not a southerner. I just live here. I don't buy anything.. I read.. I study.. and apply my own experiences ... both the Abolitionists in the North.. and the Fire Eaters in the south were at the fringes of each of their societies. Often were the elites if you will. as I alluded to before.. people do not fight, kill, and die based on the economic interests of the privilegedfew. It is not why we joined.. not why we fought.. not why we killed. it was we believed in America... it is why those in the North fought.. and conversely.. those in the South fought not for the aristocrats .. but for what they loved.. what they indentified themselves as not Americans.. but Virgianis.. Tar Heels.. Mississipians... to them as much as any of us. And our parents and Grandparents before us in past wars. Soliders fight not for economics.. not against Black.. not against Jews as Germans did.. but out of duty and a love for their country..or in this case. Their state.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 19:14
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Greg is talking about what causes a government to go to war, and Micky is talking about what makes the common man under that government go to war. ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 19:18
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 19:39
well..... yeah of course I was.. Wasn't that the topic...
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 20:40
Well stated. One of my favorite examples of remembering the past but taking down hated characters who steered history into unsavory territories is a statue park in Budapest, Hungary that simply removed all the "commie" statues around the city and created a new statue park for those who want to visit them. To me that seems like the best reasonable compromise because those statues do represent history and should be available to remind the public of those eras even if horrible but yet not be stuck in a place where most citizens will be forced to be reminded. Statues are basically history of the victors and that does not necessarily mean a good thing for sure. -------------  https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 22:03
Whether you owned or did not own slaves in the Antebellum South, slavery was ingrained in most Southerner's lives and their culture. In fact, farmers who were not actual slaveholders would rent slaves from nearby plantations during the harvest. So the leaders of the Confederacy used propaganda to demonize Lincoln as an abolitionist fanatic (which he most certainly was not), in an effort to frighten Southern folks into thinking there would be slave rebellions and the rape of white wives and daughters, as well as Emancipation putting freed black slaves on an equal footing with dirt poor white sharecroppers. This is referenced countless time just before and all through the war. Gen. James Longstreet was recorded as using that in a speech before a battle in 1862: “One of their great leaders has attempted to make the negro your equal by declaring his freedom. They care not for the blood of babes nor carnage of innocent women which servile insurrection thus stirred up may bring upon their heads.”
And Confederate slave-holders have been made heroes. Are you aware how many U.S. military installations are named after slave-owning generals of the Confederacy? I'll list them for you: BRIG. GEN. JOHN BROWN GORDON - OWNED A CHILD SLAVE (and was a Grand Wizard of the KKK) GEN. GEORGE PICKETT - FAMILY OWNED SLAVES GEN. P.G.T. BEAUREGARD - HAD AND RENTED SLAVES GEN. HENRY L. BENNING - OWNED 89 SLAVES GEN. BRAXTON BRAGG - OWNED 105 SLAVES MAJ. GEN. LEONIDAS POLK (also an Episcopal Bishop) - OWNED 400 SLAVES GEN. JOHN BELL HOOD - FAMILY OWNED SLAVES GEN.-IN-CHIEF ROBERT E. LEE - INHERITED 189 SLAVES (and didn't free them until 3 days before Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation) ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: June 12 2020 at 23:08
Such a Trumpian response by you, I'm not surprised as everything for you is black or white and no grey area.....my way or the highway, like your secret hero Trump, you should come out of the closet. There is no discussion possible with you, as Blacksword asked a question, not made a statement, I think his question is excellent BTW. I never mentioned accepting the statues standing for white supremacy, I stated that the statues have some negative connotations towards civil rights, so I do not accept them for this. I'm not sure what you want history to show, I guess you would rather people lie about what happened than explain the books and statues. We all know that not all books are 100% correct, especially history books, maybe you know the real stories and care to update all the history books, I'm sure historians would love you for that. So why not lets blow up Mt Rushmore, create new paper money with nobody's picture, bulldoze all the monuments in DC as well the memorials including the Vietnam Memorial since all those military people don't meet your standards plus all the police and firefighter memorials all over the country since I'm sure some of those people don't meet your standards either. Your only objective is to start flame wars rather than have a discussion, clearly you are a Trump twitter follower, you should stop reading his tweets. Like they say on Shark Tank....."and for those reasons, I'm out!!" -------------
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 00:08
Statues just become bird urinals all said and done and teach us precisely nothing as far as I can see. Given that 43% of Americans have no idea who J Edgar Hoover was (source University of Pennsylvania) 14% of Americans couldn't point to Iraq on a map of the world (source National Geographic) 25% of Americans were unable to identify the country from which America gained its independence.(source Huffington Post) 30% of Americans didn’t know what the Holocaust was (source Schoen Consulting) 45% of Americans couldn't name a single German concentration camp used in the Holocaust (source Schoen Consulting) 31% of Americans, and 41% of millennials, believe
that two million or fewer Jews were killed in the Holocaust; the actual
number is around six million (source Schoen Consulting) 52% of Americans wrongly think Hitler came to power through force: he was democratically elected (source New York Times) Isn't it education, good parenting, pluralism, sensible gun laws and an ethical mass media that might be better capable of teaching us how to behave?
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 01:37
Hi, I agree for the most part. However, the bad side of that is how much is hidden in the books ... American History taught in schools and the books have hidden all the bad stuff and complete annihilation of many indigenous folks, and then persecuted many of them for years, and called them "rebels". A lot of "black history" in America has been hidden as well, and even in the Youssou N' Dour special they talk about the boats and the folks that were put in boats and taken to America ... it was not pretty! Statues come and go, and some end up in museums I guess ... even Michelangelo! But in the end, they are a "picture" of a time, that should be studied, but not prayed to like other examples have become, and is such an explosive issue in some places. I am of the opinion that the education system is the problem here. I wanted to list some books/films, but I don't think it is necessary! But not all "books" are it, since so much of it these days is pulp stuff that has a way of messing with the reality and understanding of things. But there are many artists, who speak a lot more about all these things, than many books, and their art is valuable because of it! PS: I say this a lot about our library of 40K books of literature now in Lisbon ... not all of those books are merde, DE ... there is a lot of great stuff in there, but it is kinda buried, and in the case of that library, something like over 10% of it was not even cataloged anywhere ... so there is a lot of "history" and "work" that will never be heard, read, or listened to. It can't be just a book ... it has to be everything, all inclusive ... otherwise, all you are going to read is Harry Potter and forget all the other $hit!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 01:54
See, what you say I can agree with and discuss...thank you for that. And all of that is terrible that people do not know, or is it?.....Why don't they and should they know or do we prefer to wipe all that from everyone's memory banks? Will not knowing about all this make us a better world/people? So how do you educate on how not to let the Holocaust happen again, if we don't know the bad that happened? Especially when we know that there are people that believe what happened there was justified..... -------------
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 02:43
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Did this thread really need to turn into a discussion abut the American Civil War? I think Statues are generally a bit crap. There is actually one of Michael Jackson outside of Fulham FC ground in West London. How silly is that? Any statues that celebrate war of any kind are dubious really. Take them all down and put them in a museum. It would be interesting to start a list of people who deserve a statue. I'll start with Marie Curie.
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Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 03:32
 He still oversees it all. I wonder for how long, before some animal activist decides that a hare does not belong on a pedestal, let alone in a city... One can agree or disagree whether a historical figure was right or not, but all this pacemaking and iconoclasm that has been going on for the last few weeks does not feel quite right to me: a not so small step on the way to neo-barbarism. It reminds me of the Taliban firing missiles at the Buddhas of Bamyan. ------------- 
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 04:37
I don't accept your pretzel logic, and it is not my concern you come to a discussion armed with the intellectual equivalent of a pea-shooter. At issue is the weak premise you started with:
Evidently, you are the one with a limited grasp of historical context, and are merely projecting your own shortcomings on others. You neither understood the reason these statues were erected in the first place, nor the fact that this seemingly sudden removal of racist statues has actually been an ongoing theme with minorities for not just years, but decades. And as far as your idiotic notion that these statues teach some kind of lesson, I would suggest as symbols they teach the exact opposite of whatever it is you dimly wish would happen and who supports retaining these statues. I can only point you to Charlottesville, VA in 2017, when removing a statue of Robert E. Lee by the duly elected city council brought neo-Nazi, white nationalist, neo-confederate, alt-right and Ku Klux Klan members to march about in their Halloween costumes, chant racist and anti-Semitic slogans, and eventually cause violence and death. The racists who marched in Charlottesville understood what that statue symbolizes and why they wanted it to remain, because in essence they and their forebears are the ones that put it there in the first place. So yes, read a book. Read several books. Eventually you might catch up. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 04:44
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here, so forgive me
. I would never advocate 'airbrushing the past' and would argue the opposite i.e. we need to teach people that ignoring history condemns us to repeat past atrocities in perpetuity. It stands to reason that preventing future genocides is going to carry with it some very harrowing and upsetting study material for future generations but being able to view or not being able to view statues of historic personages would form no part of that curriculum.-------------
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 04:57
In Belgium, there is a wave against the Leo 2 statues and his cruelty terror reign in his private property called Congo. Statues are being soiled As a republican and atheist, I don't care for that royal family (or any other FTM), but the Belgian one is kind of repulsive, given the very iffy conducts of most of them (changeing faith for Leo I in order to grab a throne to reign, Congo for his son, collaboration with Nazis for Leo 3, Lumumba assissination and unwilling to sign the people's laws for Bobodouin, refusal to paternity recognition for Bert 2, etc...) on top of being rabidly mean christians (Boboduin even delving into Opus Dei crap)... They can roll over and disppear for all I care, and their statues can all melted away.... However, given the context, if that unbolting of statues demanded by a small fraction of demanding ("diktats" some will say) of "foreigners" (as some will say again); if that happens, we'll the the far/extreme right parties having one more landslide victory. People don't like seeing whatever national propaganda bullsh*t brainfed to their accepting young brains being called as pure bluff in the poker game of life. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 05:57
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Re Micky and Greg: Although the war did not start expressly about slavery, I do think that the fear that the slaves would be freed and that there would be chaos was definitely on the mind of the southerner. This mentality still existed there when I was young, so I am sure it was there then too. Of course the southerners were also driven by the idea of protecting the homeland from the northern invaders, so in a sense, you are both right. As far as the north being heroic emancipators, hardly, they only used the blacks to punish the south. There was a different racism on both sides. ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 06:32
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that racism existed on both sides, which is no surprise as we have discussed at some length in the other thread as being racist is as much part and parcel of the species as our propensitiy for both creating great works of art.. and inflicting great horror and destruction upon each other... both sides feared the freeing of the slaves. The north was about ecomics.. in an industrialized.. low skill labor model.. freed slaves take white jobs the south being agarian.. it wasn't about the economics of it. Freed or not.. slaves would be working the land. The fear there was more to the social order however...
At no point did Lincoln or the Republicans ever discuss.. much less mention freeing slaves.. for the reasons I just said... thus why would the south fear it John. The war did not start because of it.. nor did those who willingly joined their respective armies joint to either remove.. or protect it. There were higher notions which I went into last night in play here than the over simplistic, slavery based, notion of the Civil War. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 06:50
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^ I think many southerners knew that there were northerners calling for the end of slavery, and certainly there were sympathetic southerners who also wanted to end slavery. Although the northern government had not yet declared itself as anti-slavery, the idea that the north might do such a thing was useful propaganda in the south. Even if it was unofficial word of mouth type gossip, although a famous speech by the second in command seems fairly official to me. The issues of the civil war are complicated, but fear of a black plantation was part of it. ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 07:03
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of course it was John. What was discussed was not ending slavery.. freeing the slaves.. but constricting it to death over decades as witnessed the pre 1860 guerrilla war in the expanding territory of the country to the west of the fab 13. The conflict not being ending slavery.. but whether it be allowed to expand westward as the country grew. The fear of an uncertain future was no cause for war.. nor secession.. for even as young a country as we were they surely understood the here today and gone tomorrow nature of political power that is inherent in our system. Lincoln's election and the bitterly contested election of 1860 was just the final straw that brok the already fractured back of an already divided in all but the fact nation. Lincoln could do nothing about slavery.. much less freeing them so no... that is not why the southern state seceeded (note.. they did not start the war) nor did Southerners join once the Lincoln decided to fight to preserve the Union. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 07:54
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As far as statues of Christopher Columbus are concerned they should take them down. Not only did he not discover the North American continent (he never set foot on it in fact) but he single-handedly sowed the seeds of destruction for the majority of indigenous inhabitants of the Americas. Some statues are raised for no other reason to foster a FALSE HISTORY. http://www.livescience.com/16468-christopher-columbus-myths-flat-earth-discovered-americas.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.livescience.com/16468-christopher-columbus-myths-flat-earth-discovered-americas.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.livescience.com/16468-christopher-columbus-myths-flat-earth-discovered-americas.html
------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 08:00
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Re Micky: Well we are talking about two different things again. You are talking about the decisions of government leaders and I am talking about the fears and mindset of the general population. My grandparents lived in Helena Arkansas, this is far different from the more cosmopolitan and modern urban south i grew up in. In Helena, the civil war was still fresh when I was young, old people would still talk about 'yankees' as if reconstruction was still happening. White people there have the money and the power, but not always the numbers. Different from the rest of the US, black people are a very large population in the deep south. Fear of a black insurrection was something that was very real to white paranoia in the 20th century, and I am sure it was far worse before the civil war. No official declaration of war was needed from anybody. The fear was there from the get go. ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 08:12
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no arguments from me there.. of course there was that fear.. but is sort of pointless to the topics at hand which ..yeah.. we are sort of all over the place on. but holding to the original.. why did they fight... and fears aren't why.. that fear would always remain as long as there was slavery.... and would have remained even after a southern victory. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 08:23
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There is often a disconnect as to why a country has declared war and why the common people think they want to fight a war. This is true in any war. ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 08:30
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Going back to what I know first hand about that old power, deep south mind set. There is no way you will ever convince me that these people were not very concerned about black people getting the upper hand, and concerned enough to start fighting, even if they were not even clear as to why their government declared war in the first place. ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 08:31
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agreed... which is why I suppose this whole tangent spouted out of Greg's post. We know what the purpose of those statues were in post war reknitting of America.. and that is why they have to go...but I do not agree with the ascribing the sins of those that followed to those who served. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 09:09
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Like most wars, probably everyone of any side was probably scared sh*tless and totally bewildered and disoriented as their life turned to constant misery and chaos. ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 09:27
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Life’s too short to get mad about some statues getting torn down. Let’s put it simple, hate people because they are dicks, not because of what they look like or how they identify. The fact of the matter is many of these confederate statues were put up during the civil rights movement as a way to sort of spite African Americans and in general, we’ve reached a point where a majority of people don’t want to rally around the leaders of a war fought over slavery and that’s fine by me. At the end of the day, wether or not a statue is there it really should have no bearing on your life. ------------- The sun has left the sky... ...Now you can close your eyes |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 10:04
I'm not stating anything here, I am merely posing questions to yours and you and I are on point. I too am against any fluffing of history or eliminating any of it, it happened and we need to develop education materials to not only teach what happened, but also study what happened and why. Then use that intelligence to do what is necessary to not let it happen again......That's what I was saying in an earlier post that the statues and what they stand for needs to be changed in a lot of cases, they not need be lauded but quite possibly detested and used to show who these people were and what they may have caused. Several years ago when the statue issue came up and New Orleans removed some from the city, somewhere in Virginia there was one scheduled to come down. A local college professor (IIRC), was against it stating it would mean the end of these terrible wars and how people were treated and such, he would struggle telling the stories that could prevent future actions, he was against removing any statues....This was a black man saying all this, I remember the TV interview. If people want to krapp all over them and graffiti them and post signs all over them that's fine, move some to the Smithsonian American History museum and put them next to Fonzi's leather jacket, sure. What this has turned into, because some people cannot think outside the box, is an argument about the Civil War and how it was bad and slavery and suffrage....duh!!! We all know that. As Blacksword stated, regardless of your like or dislike of the statues, should they come down? It's not a black and white answer..... -------------
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Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 10:58
Hear that. We should focus on things that really do affect our quality of life. Economics, ecological degradation etc. I don't personally care what silly statues are up or not. ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 11:13
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I'm a noob but wait. Silly statues? Aren't the statues actually valuable works of art? I mean, why destroy someone's work? Someone took their time to make the statues. The people who made the statues expressed something. Why are people destroying valuable art? ------------- 
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 12:05
Sculptures from Auguste Rodin and Olivier Strebelle are art, because they are the works from an artistic design. http://www.olivierstrebelle.com/en/work.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.olivierstrebelle.com/en/work.html Sculptures that are commands from a state or a private family are not really art, IMHO. Same thing with paintings: Klee & Monet are artistes.... Not sure the guys who painted Louis XIV or Grant can be thought of artistes. |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 12:14
They have some artistic value of course but so do many things. Silly refers to the symbolism more than the aesthetics. If a public piece of art is pushing a political paradigm that was either completely false or used for propagandist purposes then it should probably be moved to a museum. ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: Mirakaze
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 12:31
The majority of Confederate monuments were mass-produced in factories using cheap cast bronze or zinc and sold for less than a thousand dollars. That's why a lot of those monuments represent generic nameless soldiers that look exactly the same, and that's also why it takes a crowd almost no effort to topple them. Their artistic value is tantamount to your average garden gnome.
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Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 12:33
| Just destroy all of them and make it illegal to produce more, problem solved. They are monuments of oppression and prejudice and have no place in a progressive society. Same applies to all works of art, architecture, engineering etc. |
Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 12:48
IMO today's society is whatever but progressive. Rather middle ages with smartphones are coming. ------------- Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour) |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 13:19
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Back to the actual discussion about the statues, Robert E. Lee himself wanted no part of memorials to the Civil War: That was in addition to an earlier request he rejected as well: “As regards the erection of such a monument as is contemplated,” Lee wrote of an 1866 proposal, “my conviction is, that however grateful it would be to the feelings of the South, the attempt in the present condition of the Country, would have the effect of retarding, instead of accelerating its accomplishment; [and] of continuing, if not adding to, the difficulties under which the Southern people labour.” After the Civil War, Lee had reaffirmed his allegiance to the Union, and stressed his belief that the country should move past the war. Evidently, Southern Sympathizers ignored his wishes decades after he died in 1870. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 13 2020 at 17:36
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^ Kind of interesting that those who pretend to honor Lee with a statue don't even bother to read his own words on the matter. Statues of Lee don't honor him or respect his wishes. ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: June 14 2020 at 03:43
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Why is most of this thread about the American civil war? The issues are the same everywhere, everyone was an immoral scumbag as long as you just go back in history long enough with enough facts to know. The more we discover with empirical historical research, the more we have to conclude that even saints and scientists had dirt on them, offensive opinions, behavior that we wouldn't accept now... I used to think it was stupid and reactionary to take these statues down but looking at the argument that the purpose of statues in practice is to set a symbolic moral example of 'good values', it actually makes a lot of sense to take down the high-praising symbols of them brave old warmongers. The main issue that gets the discussion so heated though, is of course that it's used as another token of polarization, where your stance on it supposed to be yet another indicator of which side of the big political battle you're on. As if we don't have enough of those yet... I'd say both sides should back off from the debate first and then we just let the local governments calmly get to replacing the old statues with new ones from contemporaneous celebrities or respected politcians, should be plenty of those that deserve statues (in the public eye) and plenty of people willing to make them I'd think. ------------- 
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Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: June 14 2020 at 03:57
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This makes me think of something I have already thought regarding building protection. Remembering history is important and also the darker sides of history, even those that were celebrated once... Surely the German shouldn't remove all stuff Hitler has put up, but there's a fine line. The neo-nazis choose such places to gather and celebrate, it's not 100% consensus now that it was a bad thing and chances are it'll never be... Anyway, I digress. Regarding building protection, new generations should have the chance to do it their way. If you protect whole cities or parts of cities, people are condemned to live in the past, but people should live in the present really, and should create their present. So every monument deserves being questioned and most deserve to be removed at some point when generations have moved on. Every epoch deserves to have some trace protected, but surely it can be overdone, and arguably in some places it is.
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: June 14 2020 at 04:21
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Subconsciously everyone is a racist; it is simply the cerebellum reacting to anything that is "different". What our consciousness, or our cerebral cortex, makes of this is what defines us as racists or not. -------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: June 14 2020 at 05:40
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I'm rather skeptical about the ability of a 15 minute on line questionnaire to tap into my unconscious but 'implicit bias' is currently being touted as an accurate predictor of things as disparate as election results and unintentional prejudice by race, age, gender, sexual orientation and disability etc You might be surprised at the results this produces. http://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/" rel="nofollow - http://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/ -------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 14 2020 at 05:43
ummm.. paid attention to the news recently... anyone is free to post about what is going on in their country regarding hundreds of years of racism, systematic or otherwise, and more to the point... the statues placed to reinforce it ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: June 14 2020 at 08:23
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And maybe we need to look at the bigger picture....... ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 14 2020 at 08:30
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watching that Doc... with any audio completely drowned out by the Motorhead album Raff is rocking out to at insane decibel levels .. but looks like a winner.. yes.. the big picture indeed..
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: June 14 2020 at 11:21
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 14 2020 at 11:56
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^ Take that money for the statue and give it to the Food Bank so they can do something useful with it. To borrow a quote from AA, I don't need statues to be happy. ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 14 2020 at 12:18
------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 14 2020 at 13:12
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I could dig me some of that one gov.. new order stuff. as long as we get to put the other side up against the wall motherf**kers hahah ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: June 14 2020 at 15:14
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 14 2020 at 15:54
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^ Well, since you already know everything I think, there isn't much need for me to reply is there. I don't really care for simple ideological labels, I like to think for myself thank you. ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: June 14 2020 at 16:09
I'm not quite sure if you're being willfully oblivious when you infer "current associations with the right wing", which is not the case. As has been pointed out amply throughout this thread, the Confederate statues have always been an issue, because they were erected by white supremacists for white supremacists long after the Civil War during the height of the Ku Klux Klan and Jim Crow Laws as a symbol of racial superiority and a reminder to blacks to keep their place. That you can't comprehend that these statues have been offensive to the black community since they were erected smack dab in the center of the towns they lived in merely speaks to a lack of knowledge or an unwillingness to listen.
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 14 2020 at 16:28
Besides, not wanting to waste public funds on an unnecessary statue is a conservative viewpoint. ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: June 14 2020 at 17:02
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^ Amen, bro! If people have personal opinions on history, let them raise statues of history on their OWN property! ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: June 15 2020 at 00:16
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 15 2020 at 04:08
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 15 2020 at 05:54
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 15 2020 at 08:08
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Re twseel: I'm probably not the best person to direct your question to, but when I try to think of a universally admired western icon; Abraham Lincoln probably comes the closest, after that maybe someone who used sports to advance society, someone like Jackie Robinson. A non-exploitative explorer such as Amelia Earhart also comes to mind. Here in Memphis we have statues to blues man WC Handy and Elvis that never attract any controversy. Ultimately though, I really do think a statue is a waste of public funds that could be better spent elsewhere, and that is from a fiscally responsible conservative viewpoint. As far as the other things you mention, a true and intelligent conservative approach to government has been undermined by phony con artists like hollywood donald and the people he attracts. If you want to understand what a fiscally responsible approach to government is, check out current Republican presidential candidate William Weld. Also, check out National Review, who coincidentally recently ran an editorial in favor of taking down jim crow era confederate statues. Mostly I try to avoid simplistic labels and am willing to pick and choose my ideas from any approach. i prefer solutions to ideology. You may have noticed people on this site from many different ideologies uniting behind a concern that trump is a danger to the US and the world. You do not have to be a 'liberal' to realize what a truly horrible president he is. Now back to the statues: ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 15 2020 at 08:25
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^True, you don't have to be a liberal to view Trump as a bad president. But it helps. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 15 2020 at 08:30
Barry Goldwater to Bob Dole while expressing his disgust over the rise of religious intolerance in the republican party via Pat Robertson and Pat Buchanan: "I guess we're the liberals of the party now" ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 15 2020 at 09:17
Hi, Silly, he wasn't the only one ... the same thing happened in the rest of South America and then Africa. In Brazil (Cabral in 1500) it was about a search for gold ... the excuse that later also brought in English, Dutch, Spanish and everyone else to rape, destroy and take as much off the land as they could! Columbus is no different than anyone else in that respect, however, I am not sure that CC was positively setup to run a war like invasion, since he barely got what he did, and I doubt that enough "weapons" would be included in the stuff they needed ... provisions would make better sense. My take is that the "seeds" of destruction came right after ... because now folks in Europe knew there was some more land where they could chase for gold, and this also happened in North America. Basically, all three Americas were the "Eldorado". ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 15 2020 at 09:23
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Columbus was trying to reach India via the Atlantic Ocean in order to establish a new trade route. I doubt that visions of plundering Aztec gold or shipping blacks over from Africa ever entered his head, while he feared sailing off the edge of his flat world. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Mascodagama
Date Posted: June 15 2020 at 10:50
When he first made landfall in the Bahamas in 1492 he didn't have the manpower to do much to the Taino natives but observed that "with fifty men they could all be subjected and made to do all that one wished". He came back the following year with seventeen ships carrying 1,500 settlers who didn't waste much time in effectively enslaving the Taino population. And he went home from that voyage with 1,000 Taino captives who were sold as slaves in Cadiz (apart from the ones who died during the journey and were thrown into the sea, that is).
------------- Soldato of the Pan Head Mafia. We'll make you an offer you can't listen to. http://bandcamp.com/jpillbox" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp Profile |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 15 2020 at 11:08
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^ And this has nothing to do with shipping black slaves from Africa to the "New World' because he thought the Bahamas was the "old world". It was just a few degrees the other way. About 180. All going in the opposite direction. And the world being flat was a dig at silly puppy's conspiracy mind set found in Pedro's post.
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: June 15 2020 at 11:37
I think I would much rather have abstract sculptures than statues of humans. A fine example might be Erwin Wurm's Gurken: ------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: June 15 2020 at 12:50
As I'm sure you know, true conservative government (in a fiscal sense) died a long time before the Donald came to power and the republican party at large has no desire to become one. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: June 15 2020 at 12:51
This strikes me as a good compromise. While we can endlessly debate who is worth immortalizing in bronze or marble, giant pickles, giants beans, or various other abstract sculptures would work nicely to add some artist flair to various communities. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 15 2020 at 13:00
------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 16 2020 at 04:09
 Don't-a take-a down Colombo. He no racist. Just-a Dumbo.
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Posted By: Mascodagama
Date Posted: June 16 2020 at 06:15
I mainly just wanted to make sure nobody missed the fact that CC was a giant, gaping arsehole. ------------- Soldato of the Pan Head Mafia. We'll make you an offer you can't listen to. http://bandcamp.com/jpillbox" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp Profile |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 16 2020 at 06:30
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Mascodagama
Date Posted: June 16 2020 at 07:05
World's never been short of 'em. EDIT: Just realised the forum software doesn't know to censor British swearing. Nifty.
------------- Soldato of the Pan Head Mafia. We'll make you an offer you can't listen to. http://bandcamp.com/jpillbox" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp Profile |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: June 16 2020 at 07:41
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they should replace the Lee statue with abother Lee statue, one with Stan Lee instead. -------------  
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 16 2020 at 08:09
^  ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: dwill123
Date Posted: June 17 2020 at 12:27