Cardiacs-Pendragon: Saved by You In a City Lining
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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Polls
Forum Description: Create polls on topics related to progressive music
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=125447
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Topic: Cardiacs-Pendragon: Saved by You In a City Lining
Posted By: Logan
Subject: Cardiacs-Pendragon: Saved by You In a City Lining
Date Posted: February 12 2021 at 17:47
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I was watching some youtube music vids earlier today and this Pendragon one came up. There's something about Pendragon that has long reminded me of Cardiacs (I went into that in another topic once, not that I know Pendragon nearly as well), and this song from the same year (1988) came to mind due to whatever strange associative processes my brain makes. Apples or oranges or not to you, here it is. Pendragon - Saved by You Cardiacs - In a City Lining |
Replies:
Posted By: Progmind
Date Posted: February 12 2021 at 17:47
| Go cardiacs!!!!!!! |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: February 12 2021 at 18:37
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To quote David Spade, I'm gonna "take the hit"! I'm the Pendragon vote. "Saved by You" is, well, innocuous. Pleasant rock tune. They have better non-prog fare, like "The Mask" and "Contact." The first two minutes of "In a City Lining" is better, but the rest of it's a chore for me to get through. I just don't like the guy's voice. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: February 12 2021 at 18:54
| Oranges. |
Posted By: Spacegod87
Date Posted: February 12 2021 at 19:14
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Cardiacs!!! ------------- Levitating downwards, atomic feedback scream. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: February 12 2021 at 19:28
And here I thought you'd go with apples: Granny Smith apples to be precise. 
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Lewian wrote:Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: February 12 2021 at 19:43
| I'm going with The Cardiacs on this one. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: February 12 2021 at 19:51
The Mask actually I'd heard before, as well as some other more Prog ones off the album (some of the music reminded me a lot of Supertramp -- maybe the song "kowtow" from memory), but this is the one that came up based on other listening in the queue. Sometimes I like to listen to music that way and get exposed to new-to-me-things. Tim Smith can be shouty and quite aggressive in tone (in fact that became part of the stage persona). I've read that when Fish had Cardiacs open for Marillion, Cardiacs was booed (which might well have upset Fish more than anyone). I came to like the coarse punk qualities of Smith's singing (although in some he's louder and more punk than in others, and at first I wasn't into the more circus-like ones). I might do one one more of these from the albums or from other albums. I would maybe go with I Walk the Rope from Pendragon due to the sax, and what I love about various Cardiacs music is Sarah Smith's sax. Yeah, maybe that and Stoneage Dinosaurs would work well as a pairing and Tim Smith is more subdued there. No wait, 2 AM would work better from Pendragon. |
Posted By: geekfreak
Date Posted: February 12 2021 at 23:24
Oranges ------------- Friedrich Nietzsche: "Without music, life would be a mistake." Music Is Live Two people are better off than one, for they can help each other succeed. Keep Calm And Listen To The Music… < |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: February 13 2021 at 04:20
| Pendragon - Saved by You |
Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: February 13 2021 at 08:48
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At first sight a bizarre association indeed, but while listening to both I can understand some link between the two. Now, I am not going to be tender with Pendragon here. I quite like the band, although they have never been one of my top favourites (not even in my neo-prog 80s). Saved By You is imo their failed attempt to a "let's write our breakthrough pop song and bring prog to the masses"-song. It didn't even make the original KowTow album, which was in itself already a big deception after the great The Jewel. Fortunately they later turned back and stuck to what they do better: writing prog songs/compositions. Saved By You is just proof that they are very, very, very, and I really mean very bad in writing a pop song. It lacks everything: originality (both musically and lyrically), inspiration, incarnation, creativity... even the clip is bad. It's really bad... The Cardiacs song shows creativity, musicality, and also just the sheer fun they have doing this, pretentiousless fun and music well done (although I can also understand that it is not up everyone's alley with his characteristic voice and the changes in pace and style...). ------------- The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: February 13 2021 at 09:05
It's not the aggression or style, it's just his voice. Some singers' voices I can't get into. Another guy is Roland Orzabal. Maybe Tears for Fears is the best band in the multiverse, but I'll never know because I don't like that guy's voice. Morrissey, too. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: February 13 2021 at 09:09
I agree, but it's not offensively bad. It's harmless. Innocuous. It doesn't inspire. Nick tried to write something catchy. "The Mask" is a much better song. FWIW, I actually like Kowtow more than The World. Funny, I know. But Pendragon has never been able to top The Jewel. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: February 13 2021 at 09:22
I get that. I can empathise with someone who doesn't enjoy Tim Smith's vocals, but I couldn't think of the right words to describe the characteristics of his voice (grating which I see used in my other poll is one of the words I wanted). In fact I've recommended Cardiacs instrumental music before to people who didn't like the voice, much as I've done with Peter Hammill (of course Peter Hammill has the "better" voice, but many just don't like it). I also don't like the vocals in Tears For Fears, and I didn't like Tim Smith's voice either in the early days of hearing the band (it's kind of whiny and it's partially the accent, just the tone, timbre...), but grew to accept and appreciate them, which is not to say that you ever should, of course. With Pendragon, I don't think that Nick Barrett has a good voice. It's also whiny, and sometimes sounds like he's doing impersonations of other people (like Roger Hodgson). Which is not to say that I dislike it. |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: February 13 2021 at 09:46
I love Geoff Mann's vocals (and lyrics), and he was clearly influenced by Hammill.
I agree, Nick is "that guy who wants/has to be the frontman," though he's better off just being the lead guitarist and getting a singer, the way IQ, Marillion and Twelfth Night did. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: February 13 2021 at 10:07
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Funny you mention Twelth Night and Geoff Mann, I played Fact and Fiction last night which is one of my favourite albums included in our Neo-Prog category. Not that I do polls as contests, but this seemed quite a good match-up in terms of votes (seven each). Often I do ones that turn out to be very lopsided. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: February 13 2021 at 10:09
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: February 13 2021 at 10:42
I almost certainly would not have made the association if it weren't for the fact that I made the association before between a Cardiacs song and a Pendragon song. Maybe because its been said by, say, ManWithHat, that there is nothing progressive about Cardiacs music (I presented my counterargument as we had a difference of opinion, but I still absorb ideas and try to find a middle ground and synthesis of ideas) that it seemed to make more sense to pair Cardiacs up with less "progressive" Pendragon from that perspective. Cardiacs was always a kind of art pop and art rock band (and I argued progressive pop and rock as well). If going more popular from a kind of pop-rock context, then I could go with the more mainstream "Is This the Life?" I mentioned that this turned out to be a very evenly matched pair of songs in terms of votes, although I know some will vote for their preferred band no matter what (and some vote without knowing both, not that I'm accusing anyone of that here). I like this Pendragon song for what it is even though, not surprisingly, the Cardiacs choice is much more my thing. I love Cardiacs, and I think this is a very fine song (although not one I've tended to highlight in past Cardiacs polls). On a side-note, whether the Pendragon one is bad or not (one could debate its objective merits), being bad does not necessarily take away from my enjoyment of songs or films, and there's a whole class of so bad they're good that I love (objectively inept yet subjectively I truly appreciate them). I genuinely love The Shagg's Philosophy of the World despite (or actually more because of) its reputation. I know many people say that Zardoz is a really bad movie, but I love it and find it poignant (to me that is not even objectively bad even if it has its ludicrous moments). I like Ed Wood films very much, which are more of the quite inept variety, but seem sincere. I love a certain Magma piece (Otis done for French TV) that could be called so bad its good (more strangely weird and amusing in its apparent earnestness than objectively bad methinks). Badness can be part of the charm nd even bad can sound good to these ears. Heard some of The Jewel, but will listen to that soon in full. I like that it has shorter songs than some others -- some Pendragon stretches out its idea far too much and thin for me (an issue I have with much symphonic prog and prog metal and various Neo-Prog, and well, I could think of examples in every category at PA actually). I do like to do polls that hopefully will expose different audiences to music they might not normally listen to, but I do prefer my comparisons that I at least recognise when they have similarities as well as contrasts commonly. |
Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: February 13 2021 at 11:20
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^ Nice post, both regarding your association of these two and your side-note. Regarding the latter, we could argue about aesthetic norms that are a reference for calling something "good" or "bad" ("beautiful" or "ugly"), but that, from the outset, is treading very dangerous territory because we could take a norm as a dogma, which it never should be. Of course, when I say that this Pendragon song is bad, it is partly because of some implicit aesthetic norms that I use as frame of reference and mainly because of my personal appreciation of the song (within their catalogue, as another frame of reference). And, as you rightly point out, we can very much appreciate something that is, according to more or less specific - aesthetic - norms, considered of lesser quality. If this would not be the case, we wouldn't have all these endless discussions here on PA...  That said, I agree with verslibre that The Jewel has never been topped by another Pendragon album, but that too is a personal appreciation, which will be contradicted by others... ------------- The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: February 13 2021 at 12:44
It's one of my all-time faves. TN from Live at the Target through Live and Let Live, and the Collector's Item set (with "The Collector," and Geoff's lyrics and vocals added to "Sequences") is my neo of choice, where that scene's concerned. I had already been impressed by Peter Nicholls and Fishrillion, but Geoff's on another level. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: February 13 2021 at 14:05
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Of those 2.....Cardiacs....more quirky and frantic.....kind of like XTC on steroids. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Progmind
Date Posted: February 13 2021 at 18:56
My favorite neo prog band, i really enjoy the geoff perfomances, "Live and Let live" its a great live record by them
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: February 13 2021 at 20:48
Definitely more for me to check about by Twelth Night. ------------ On another note, I did listen to the Jewel, and plenty of jewels on that album. It makes me want to do a couple more of these. I had hoped to find a good quality late 80s or early 90s live video of Pendragon performing one (I think Circus was my personal favourite which is quite a unique on the album). And I did want to put some music of Cardiacs' Sing to God (1996) paired with something off Pendragon's 1996 album Masquerade Overture as for many those are the peak, and are very well known in their respective discographies. For a third, I did want to do an instrumental of each.
Yes indeed. I would link those bands stylistically. Like with early XTC, it has a similar Zolo post-punk aesthetic (I don't know later XTC so well). |
Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: February 13 2021 at 22:37
| ^I don't know how late we're talking, but Apple Venus Pt. 1 by XTC is cool. |
Posted By: Progmind
Date Posted: February 14 2021 at 09:46
One of my fav XTC album, others that i enjoy a lot, Skylarking, Nonsuch and Orange & lemons
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