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Underrated song

"For You"

BEST...BAND...EVER

(IMHO)

All bands have stinkers and many have peak periods that shine. ELP are no exception in that. But what shined, really shined. Above and beyond most others.

I started with ELP on their Mussorgsky release, and the next day I heard that one song on the first album and went and got it. I was with them until BSS.

Even at the time, I was already telling folks what a great composer Keith Emerson was, and how well so much of his playing sounded like classical music to my ears, done with a modern, electric twist to it. These days, when you can hear Rachel Flowers do TARKUS on piano (and also on organ!!!), you can immediately see what a great composer he was, which the rock press and majority of fans, were to never accentuate, or appreciate ... they wanted the hits, not the music!

Seeing a couple of things done for Keith, at least one with Rachel, was ... sad to my ears, but I was proud to have thought of it as the classical music that it was ... and how it was portrayed with an orchestra. 

His work will survive. The rock songs will be forgotten and the new generation won't give a damn, like they don't know, and think of much of it as elevator music, because it has no loudness, or a screaming guitar, or some kind of growl. Anything that is not about music, if you will. Their shows were LOUD in those days, but nowhere near the ridiculous level of Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, Hawkwind, or the worst offender of them all? The Rolling Stones.

I'm of the opinion that there is more Keith Emerson material available, but some folks that were close to him, don't want to show it, because it was not written as a band like ELP would play it ... it is on a staff with regular notes and such ... and sadly we won't hear any of this ... some of t might be bagatelles, but there is no artist, writer, or painter, that did not leave behind 150 parts and pieces in various closets because they did not fit anywhere at the time ... 

That's not to say that none of the material is great or worth being seen, but I would we certainly did not leave behind a lot of Mozart and Beethoven and hundreds of other composers, and I think it is time we allow Keith's notes to show themselves and what they created. Hopefully before my time is up, because I am one of the few that has spoken of him as a modern classical composer of music, not just a rock'n'roller. The presentation was ... what was needed at the time for his music to be seen ... and we have to appreciate that and understand it, so folks misrepresenting the music really need to jump off the pier into the ocean as Monty Python would say!

well, fan is short for fanatic. 

Talking like a true fanatic. 

It's a bath mat...that he hangs on the wall 

So it's a Wall Mat?

Hi,

Music is not as subjective as we think ... until we give credence to folks that think their opinion is more important than the reality of it all ... I have opinions, but I don't believe that I am "the truth" and "the know" of it all ... it is how I saw what I saw during the time. And this is the main reason why I am not a great fan of the "best of" or the "greatest of" or some other fan ideas about some folks. Even Carl Palmer will tell you that he dislikes comparisons, and he finds them unfair. He had his touch. Neil had his touch. Bonzo had his touch. Moonie had his touch ... and none of them were the same, thus, making the whole discussion of who is greater, a really stupid joke ... not to mention that they also played very different music, some of which was not appreciated at the time, but came to be loved soon after ... I can remember a station in Madison WI making fun of The Nice ... they think they are doing classical music ... and can't play a note! I replied, that I was not sure who the station was comparing these folks to ... the over rated classical folks that played Sunday Nights on campus? Many of them are not that great ... except one I did get to see ... Mr. Segovia ... he blew a string in the middle of a piece, and continued playing around it, and 6 minutes later when it ended, he asked ... did that sound OK? And he got an immediate ovation, which he almost cried in disbelief.

Again, my main issue is how we "think" that we know it all and thus have the right to DECIDE what is good and what is not good, or great. Led Zeppelin was perfect for its time and place. And they MADE bootlegs famous along with the Beatles and Grateful Dead ... it showed what a magnificent band they were on stage in their first 3 years or so ... incredible, and impossible to get a ticket! One series sold like 7 locations in less than 3 hours, to give you an idea ... that's not exactly the sign of a lazy, poor, and ridiculous band, like a few that are "listed" today, that have no track record whatsoever to show for their supposed talent!

What hurt it all was when around 1974/1975, it was then very clear that it was all about the loudness and the noise that the bands made, and some of them were not that great ... for all the love of Deep Purple, that was a concert I walked out of ... out of tune, too loud, and not together or clean ... like a rehearsal was above and beyond their need ... right after Leon Russell put on a show case of how good a show could be without being loud! The other show I walked out of was The Rolling Stones ... they were horrible on stage as many bootlegs showed ... only took 3 songs and 15 minutes to leave! 

I agree with you that the fan base has a tendency to ignore the time and place, and I have heard some folks even say that Woodstock was stupid ... like it meant nothing to anyone, THEN ... and is still meaningless today, because of the media hatred towards many folks, hippies and some drugs. And no one stands up for these bands, and what the whole thing was about ... which, TODAY, is so meaningless, it's not funny ... no one discusses the lyrics anymore, as if the majority of rap bands had more to say than all rock bands put together ... we don't even care what the guy sang about ... because we liked the song ... which many can not even tell you what it is about!

It's sad ... and this is the reason why I try to post meaningful content, as opposed to fan crap ... and discussing a bath towel or bathroom carpet ... wow ... the talent of ... is astounding! Yeah it's fun ... but in a thread about the music? 

It tells you everything you need to know about it all ... and the Internet!

Personally I think their only underrated album is Works Volume One. It has some stellar material but much like Tales From Topographic Oceans makes no compromise whatsover to a personal artistic vision and so comes across as 'cold'. Self indulgent it was and sure it has solo stuff but most of it is brilliant and eclectic. After that ELP should have packed in. The president of Atlantic Records insisted they release another album and unwisely that went back into the studio shortly after an exhausting and extensive Works tour. The resultant Love Beach did much to damage their hard earned reputation as one of the biggest and best classic rock bands (they had more in common with Deep Purple and LZ than Gentle Giant or Genesis imo). A rock band lead by a keyboard player was unheard of. They should have stopped when the going was good but hindsight is always a great thing.

I don't hear any weak tracks on the debut. To me their weak tracks are (if any are) Benny the Bouncer, Jeremy Bender and The Sheriff. To me their debut is their best partly because it doesn't have any of those "goofy cowboy songs."

It can't? Come on this is prog rock we are talking about. It's supposed to be serious! My problem with those tracks isn't so much the intention behind them or the fact that they are different so much as they just sound out of place. I don't really feel like they fit in with the rest of the albums. Their debut doesn't have that issue but I suppose people could complain about that one containing a drum solo.  So no, I don't skip the cowboy songs but I prefer the debut at least partly because they aren't there to ruin the continuity. That's just my opinion though. Obviously others disagree although I'm pretty sure many people skip those tracks.

Comic relief has a place.

Even Spock's Beard's Senor Valasco's Mystic Voodoo Love Dance shows that.

Hi,

Nah ... I don't collect "material" things as proof that I met someone or saw someone. And I was one of the first to condemn the folks that went after the pieces of the pig at Anaheim stadium. It really showed that the whole thing was out of control in the hands of fanatics, not fans! AND, with the internet these days, it has gotten even worse ... like you having a bath towel like that validates anything you say or do about ELP! The towel more valuable than the music!

One of these days, someone is gonna rip an artist and kill him/her and then float that ... I have a bunch of her hair ... right here ... and all it tells me is that the work itself, the art itself, is not worth it, because someone's pride is elsewhere.

I toured with some bands, and my picture was used for GONG for several years, and I am proud of "having been there" with friends and folks that were important to me, not as a fan, but as a PERSON. And people that had a lot of beauty in their hearts and were not exactly showing off their fame ... the memories alone, is more than I need or want. 

Thank you!

^WTF are you talking about?

This was NOT proof that I met someone or saw someone. It was a hand made labour of love from my folks who knew they were my favourite band.

I'm getting ready to give up on this site altogether.

 BSS and after sounds dated now.

 The prior earlier records don't sound dated.

Except for benny the bouncer

How can you possibly not LOVE this?  lol, When I was young, I lived on a reservation in Washington State for a year and a half.  They loved them some Merle.
 

Don't leave.  I just posted a Merle Haggard video.  

I suspect there is some truth in that as well. Keith Emerson's ego would also have been another reason not wanting to share the stage with another 'peacock' 

Lucky Man

Battlefield (Tarkus)

From The Beginning

Still You Turn Me On

Karn Evil 9 1st Impression

Lake actually started as a lead guitarist but Robert Fripp asked him to play bass as lead was taken!

I never tire of hearing the debut...it's always fresh and beautiful to my ears.

You pretty much said that though. There were bands that 'did away with lead guitar altogether' but ELP wasn't one of them.

Don't forget that tasty acoustic solo in the long center-section of "Take a Pebble"!

For me The Sage is the best thing he ever did with an acoustic guitar although I do like his Xmas hit a lot. The latter came about because he had a little acoustic guitar piece that he didn't know what to with and then discovered he could sing 'Jingle Bells' along with it!

I like ELP far more than the word "underrated". 

Looking at how many bands have been deeply influenced by ELP, I think they wasn't weren't underrated by their colleagues.

Hi,

I agree with the lack of appreciation, specially for the lack of comprehension i regards to how you heard a lot of the music in the late 60's and early 70's, just before the FM radio band took over in America (1971/1972 for sure) ... and we heard the music, and it sounded glorious ... and there was no one that I can remember that did not appreciate it, or thought it was stupid. 

I don't know about the "pioneer" business, since ELP was not the only band to get a lot of spins on the new radio "sound", something I don't know folks today can relate to, which helped make a lot of bands huge, and with an incredible following that resulted in massive sales.

Innovation ... I tend to look at differently ... innovation has always been there in many ways, styles and appearances, but for the time, AND PLACE, it's appearance was like the opening of 2001 for so many folks ... it was a huge wow ... but today, it's mostly all a cheap (and loud) light show and so many bands simply mailing their material! I don't think there will be another big "WOW" in music for many years to come, specially as we are not looking at new stuff, and keep regurgitating the old stuff.

I wish that many more of us would listen to these favorites in the MONO version of things that was first heard in those days ... for many of us, the first thing you are going to do is ... yep ... throw up! And it makes you realize how important the advent of STEREO in the FM radio became, which helped Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath and so many other bands that were very strong and different than most pop music on the cheap radio dial. Gosh, you should have heard the Moodies in the AM radio ... Nights in White Nothing ... is just ... so sad ... and if you use earphones, wow ... that's a mess!

Jeff, I get where you are coming from in both posts and do appreciate your perspective.  If I were to make list of most significant and quintessential Prog bands, ELP would be very high in the list.  And if I were to do a top 100 most significant albums to Prog, ELP would again rank high. I'd be tempted to put Trilogy because that is one I have really liked and from my upbringing it's one of those I remember being in people's collections while a young child.  When I seriously got into Prog in the 2000s, Trilogy is one of the first albums to which I returned.  I have wondered if some others attitudes have tainted my appreciation for various ELP music or how much of it is just that my tastes shifted.  When I joined PA, Gentle Giant and PFM were my favourite bands and now neither gets much attention from me... Moved onto other things.  As noted, ELP has been a significant influence on many bands/musicians and I have been acquainted with people who loved bands/musicians/albums/tracks inspired by ELP while being quite scornful of ELP

As for my own personal top 100 albums included in PA (and if doing so I would do one album per act), ELP would not make it, but then my tastes commonly do not run towards the more typical Prog suspects or Prog styles. A lot of what I like best in PA might not be considered Prog genre even if progressive music. As one person one put it bluntly at PA, I have terrible taste in music (not that I agree).

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As to the issue of the much reviled overrated and underrated terms, a problem I see is that is they get "overused" and often it is just coming down to an "others don't appreciate certain music as much as I", or "others like music I don't appreciate much far too much" and "I know better".  It can be a very arrogant, self-centred, and myopic assessment.  That is subjective, but there are ways to consider the merits of art/bands/musicians in a more objective, evidentiary, knowledgeable and reasonable manner.  Sometimes people overrate or underrate something (i.e, assess too highly or lowly) due to ignorance, erroneous assumptions, falsehoods, misinterpretation....

ELP albums are rated correctly with maybe the exception being BSS.

The first 4 studio albums are all around 4 (excellent addition to a prog collection). The triple album also has a similar rating. The rating system though on PA is very unsophiscated with no half marks allowed. Quite likely BSS would achieve a slightly higher rating if you didn't have to deduct a whole point for the risable BTB (that has always harmed it's standing here I believe). That's my main complaint but it's not a big one because ELP decided to include it and that's a mistake they have to own (when they toured the album it was the only track they didn't play so go figure). I believe a lot of stuff on PA only gets higher rated because the quality is more even and consistent , for instance Supertramps Crime Of The Century is a very enjoyable album but hardly ground breaking or innovative (ELP were those things IMO). 'Tramp were mainly good at soaking up influences and making things nice and tidy and the likes of Camel and a few others were also more in that mould as well. ELP were untidy and rather happier out in the world performing where they had less arguments and potential falling outs!

Considering the number of albums released every year I would like to see more modern albums rated higher and it actually annoys me a tad that so much of the top 100 is the last century. But you have the filters and can pick years (grouped if you want) and so that's cool. I think it's much better to consider PA as a resource to try and gets to grip with the much varied many headed beast that is 'prog rock' rather than some form of bible.

BTW over the years I've concluded that Gentle Giant fans are just as bad as ELP fans when it comes to being self entitled . Fact is ELP sold a shedload of albums and could stand on a stage and not look at out place next to the giants of rock music (Sabbath, LZ , Purple etc) . They could perform the sh*t out of it, sell out massive staduims and actually had personality. Beyond this they had one of the greatest musicians of the 20th century in Keith Emerson who had the talent to create Tarkus and Karn Evil 9. I only care about talent at the end of the day. ELP were all about talent and not about consistency or making good decisions. I'll take the former any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

That's a fair comment. I'm also confused by ELP's inconsistency within their albums. Tarkus and Brain Salad Surgery both contain the apex of Keith Emerson IMO, but strangely also have stupid ballads or pop songs. That just explains why ELP's debut album is concluded in the top 100. Thanks mate

Hi,

55 years later, and a spoiled listening audience that had no idea how valuable and huge (and important) some things were in the late 60's ... I think it is impossible to take the current folks comments properly, specially when they come from the side of "preference" instead of a simple explanation of their reasoning why ... perhaps they have no explanation beyond "preference", and in these days of Internet, they have the right to say so ... but it's hard to not notice the lack of history and the appreciation for the time and place, when these things took place.

It's like all the SF, NY, London, Paris, Tokyo stuff in the 60's was an illusion ... just another Russ Meyer film, with a bad poster to tease your memory!

I don't think of anything as "over rated" or "under rated" ... it is what it was and that's that ... and my liking it or not has nothing to do with it ... regardless of "when". But some of the comments are really sad. 

Plus they were the ones who got the most ruthless criticisms in the 2nd half of the 70s for self-indulgent, pretentious and overblown, after the ruinous and failed orchestral tour. In hindsight it's hard to imagine how neither their management nor their accountants nor themselves could make such a huge mistake when judging the foreseeable profit & loss statements of that tour, but the fact is that they made it, of 100+ foreseen shows only 15 could be finally made with the orchestra, and they were still lucky that most fans who had bought their tickets to see a show of ELP with orchestra did not complain and ask for their money back when they finally had to see them as just a trio.

And for whatever other reasons they do not seem to have the appreciation by the younger generations of proggers, perhaps in part by their ecclecticism, inconsistent output, and the very limited presence of electric guitar.

But in 1972 they were the top progressive rock band, in the Melody Maker Readers' Poll awards of that year they were elected as best rock band in the world, Keith as best rock keyboard player, Carl as best rock drummer, Greg as best producer and Keith & Greg shared the award as best composers. They were on fire and the awards were celebrated with a concert in which they brought 2 giant Tarkus puppets which threw smoke from the mouth and shooted foam from the cannons.

They purchased a theater in Fulham London as a rehearsal place and also they established Manticore Studios there, where also bands like PFM recorded some albums. Bands like Led Zepp and Jethro Tull went there to rehearse their shows.

Keith was collaborating with Bob Moog in the development of the first polyphonic synth which would eventually become the Polymoog, Carl together with the British Steel Company built his famous custom stainless steel drum kit, and Greg ordered the luthier Tony Zemaitis his custom double neck which would eventually be too heavy and he only used it in the Welcome Back... tour.

In summary, at that time they were the biggest prog band out there. I love them even with their inconsistencies.

Personally I found Works a bit dull at the time. I liked the cheesy side of ELP and they had suddenly got very serious with the Piano Concerto et al. All these years later I like the album a lot (never going to love it I think) but the stain that stayed with them and can never be washed away is Love Beach. The genius band that helped changed the face of music had become invisible. Part of the issue that Emerson and Lake had stopped writing music together and that was when the creativity died. They could surely have put the bad publicity of Works behind them but the horrible decision that was Love Beach will always remain part of their legacy and that's a shame.

During the prototype stages it was called the Apollo and the final production version came out in 1975 called Polymoog.

Additionally Bob Moog was getting tired and fed up with certain aspects of his company management and was considering selling it (which he did in 1977 to Norlin).

All factors together resulted in Keith ending his long collaboration with Moog and switching to Yamaha from the Works Vol 1 album (and later also Korg). However Keith kept using his iconic modular Moog in the concerts.