It seems the unrest in France has claimed it's first fatality. Perhaps it's a miracle that casualties have been this light. The violence is said to be escalating and spreading to other areas of the country. Foreign goverments have warned their citizens to take care while travelling in some areas.

Riots started in Paris 11 days ago when two youths were allegedly chased by police. They hid in an electricity sub station and were electrocuted and killed. The police were blamed. 

France's 'underclass' appears to be rising up and biting Chiracs government on the ass. How bad can this get? What can be done to restore order? Is it time to listen to the rioters grievances, or should the authorities 'get tough'?

Thoughts from our French prog contingent??.....and everyone else of course!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4414684.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4414684.stm

NetsNJFan wrote: I'm banking on a second French revolution that'd be hilarious, take the rusty guilotines (i butchered that) out of storage, and form an Islamic Republic ruled by roaming hordes of unemployed immigrant youth.

Thats a bit tastless man

sleeper wrote: NetsNJFan wrote: I'm banking on a second French revolution that'd be hilarious, take the rusty guilotines (i butchered that) out of storage, and form an Islamic Republic ruled by roaming hordes of unemployed immigrant youth. Thats a bit tastless man

i know.  it's just funny, europeans always criticize america for our racial inequality and how we treat our lower classes, thinkign they are so much more enlightened then us, and then this explodes in their faces

NetsNJFan wrote: sleeper wrote: NetsNJFan wrote: I'm banking on a second French revolution that'd be hilarious, take the rusty guilotines (i butchered that) out of storage, and form an Islamic Republic ruled by roaming hordes of unemployed immigrant youth. Thats a bit tastless man i know.  it's just funny, europeans always criticize america for our racial inequality and how we treat our lower classes, thinkign they are so much more enlightened then us, and then this explodes in their faces

It is rather humorous in a rather sick and twisted way.  However, I must say that racial inequality and poor treatment of the lower classes does not justify rioting or hurting innocent people.  Perhaps getting jobs would be a better solution to their predicament. 

Or they could just send Tony in to delete their bad asses. 

Done.

Check out CNN...I'm the one with the Water Cannon playing skittles...

Tony R wrote: Done. Check out CNN...I'm the one with the Water Cannon playing skittles...

All you did was moved the riots to the Discussions Not Related to Music forum.

oliverstoned wrote: We have created monsters in our suburbs!! Like the americans did with Ben Laden... The problem is that they are billions!

Yes ... and if you think that's bad ... you should see the damage you did to your colonies ...

Trotsky wrote: __________________ Subteranea - IQ There's a riot going on - Sly & the Family Stone Rather cheeky signature line-up at a time like this eh, Andy? Can't comment on the real issue, but I'd expect it to blow over ... these things almost always seem to do nowadays ... when was the last time a "spontanoeous" eruption of protests (violent or otherwise) led to a real change in a country as "established" as France? I am sorry about the fatality ... it almost always is the innocent bystander who gets hurt by these kind of situations

Er, yeah, I see what you mean  Unintentional, I assure you..

Apparently the rioting was not so bad last night. This is a serious problem, which I cant help feeling is actually being played down a little on UK TV. This is France!! It's only a few miles over the channel from us, and they seem to be going through a potentially massive social upheaval. I dont advocate rioting, and I support the authorities in whatever they need to do to protect innocent people.

France clearly needs a new strategy for generating/encouraging opportunity among it's poorer immigrant population, but for now the safety of the masses needs to be the governments priority IMO.

There are concerns that the rioting could spread across other EU countries. I thought to myself last night, while watching the news, that the liklihood of this is greater the more our media make such suggestions!

barbs wrote: That this has spread to around 200 to 300 provinces in France must raise questions about the effectiveness of the system there. That a country with a purchasing power parity of around $28,000, considered to be a European leader and a real growth in GDP of a little over 2% you would think that even with unemployment at around 10% there would not be this kind of widespread reaction.  Localised is understandable but that this has spread even into other countries is an indication of a much much deeper, longstanding and widespread problem. Even if the rioting was to be quelled tomorrow, it doesn't alleviate the core of the problem which cannot possibly be just unemployment. During the depression years in the late 1920s, unemployment was considerable, yet most people were able to hold onto some dignity and not cause the type of suffering to others that is witnessed now. It is as much a sociological question as it is an economic one.

I have to agree with some of this..

High unemployment and lack of opportunities is not an excuse to wreck the lives and property of those who have no control over those problems. There needs to be a dialouge between 'community' leaders and the government. That is of course a long term ideal.

In the short term, the needs and welfare of the peaceful majority must be given priority, therefore the riots must be brought swiftly to a close by the authorities, by force. There can be no hope for order if chaos prevails. Just my opinion..

oliverstoned wrote: Manunkind wrote: Hopefully you're safe where you are, Oliver? Yes, i am, thank you very much. I have the chance to live in a rich area. But for how long?

Good to hear you're safe and I hope it stays this way.

Phil wrote: There's been a couple of articles in the UK papers and on BBC radio this morning about how the problems may have arisen or at least been made worse because of the French social model, which differs from the UK. I'm willing to stand corrected here - just repeating what I think was said - but if I understand the idea in France is that everyone is an equal French national - a wonderful principle but in practice it means (so the commentators hypothesised) that minority ethnic groups go unrecognsied as having their own culture, and in practise are discriminated against when it comes to jobs etc. So there are apparenetly no statistics about the ethnic origin of people in the troubled areas whereas in UK there is considerable data about ethic origin and demographics. Now in theory you would think the French model right and proper - all citizens should be equal - but what that fails to realise - and UK had the Broadwater riots and the Scarman report some years back to help teach us this - is that in practise, you have to recognise and respect cultural differences and even positively discriminate to get a proper balance (so the argument went). So for example the Police in Britain are meant to be at least partially representative of the ethinicity of the area they are policing; whereas in France, there is no such model - everone is a Frenchman (or woman)! A soundbite one commentator used stuck with me - in France people of different origins and backgrounds are all assimilated into being French nationals; in UK they are integrated. Please I'm just reporting what was said, but it was the theme in several papers. For me personally as a Brit I must admit I always admired the balance the French tried to strike between economic and social priorities, unlike us in the UK that seem too dominated by market forces, but maybe that was naive of me?

Good post, Phil..

A lot has been made of the social/economic differences between France and the UK in recent days. Although it's obvious that every country, regardless of it's overal wealth, will have it's share of problems, I never thought France could have potentially bigger problems than us. The French ideal of equality seems perfectly reasonable to me. It goes to show that NO country has 'got it right'

France, like the UK and the US prides itself on it's multiculturalism, but in the cold light of day it seems that it's ethnic minorities will always comprise the 'underclass' Just like in the US and UK. We take what we want from Asian and African culture, be it music or food, then impoverish and criminilise the rest of it.

I stand by what I said before, though. As much as I understand the grievance of the rioters this needs to be stopped, by force.

oliverstoned wrote: Manunkind wrote: oliverstoned wrote: Manunkind wrote: Hopefully you're safe where you are, Oliver? Yes, i am, thank you very much. I have the chance to live in a rich area. But for how long? Good to hear you're safe and I hope it stays this way. That's kind of you

Don't mention it

Blacksword wrote:  We take what we want from Asian and African culture, be it music or food, then impoverish and criminilise the rest of it.

Not to mention the brain drain ... a very serious problem now ... yesterday a childhood friend from Uganda, a highly intelligent dentist informed me that he's be settling down in Australia ... who needs such expertise more ... Uganda or Australia ...

He'll be joining my brother-in-law who's a doctor and two of my cousins (an actuarial scientist and a chartered accountant) in the land of Oz, my two younger sisters and no less than 14 of my cousins are in the US, the UK and Canada with 1 in Singapore ... most of them are engineers (3 from Stanford alone), doctors and other highly trained professionals ... unlike most other third World countries Malaysia can just about afford it ... but for how long?

Blacksword wrote: Phil wrote: There's been a couple of articles in the UK papers and on BBC radio this morning about how the problems may have arisen or at least been made worse because of the French social model, which differs from the UK. I'm willing to stand corrected here - just repeating what I think was said - but if I understand the idea in France is that everyone is an equal French national - a wonderful principle but in practice it means (so the commentators hypothesised) that minority ethnic groups go unrecognsied as having their own culture, and in practise are discriminated against when it comes to jobs etc. So there are apparenetly no statistics about the ethnic origin of people in the troubled areas whereas in UK there is considerable data about ethic origin and demographics. Now in theory you would think the French model right and proper - all citizens should be equal - but what that fails to realise - and UK had the Broadwater riots and the Scarman report some years back to help teach us this - is that in practise, you have to recognise and respect cultural differences and even positively discriminate to get a proper balance (so the argument went). So for example the Police in Britain are meant to be at least partially representative of the ethinicity of the area they are policing; whereas in France, there is no such model - everone is a Frenchman (or woman)! A soundbite one commentator used stuck with me - in France people of different origins and backgrounds are all assimilated into being French nationals; in UK they are integrated. Please I'm just reporting what was said, but it was the theme in several papers. For me personally as a Brit I must admit I always admired the balance the French tried to strike between economic and social priorities, unlike us in the UK that seem too dominated by market forces, but maybe that was naive of me? Good post, Phil.. A lot has been made of the social/economic differences between France and the UK in recent days. Although it's obvious that every country, regardless of it's overal wealth, will have it's share of problems, I never thought France could have potentially bigger problems than us. The French ideal of equality seems perfectly reasonable to me. It goes to show that NO country has 'got it right' France, like the UK and the US prides itself on it's multiculturalism, but in the cold light of day it seems that it's ethnic minorities will always comprise the 'underclass' Just like in the US and UK. We take what we want from Asian and African culture, be it music or food, then impoverish and criminilise the rest of it.

The same goes for the Netherlands, my native country. Always said that they were multicultural, but a year ago, when the controversial movie maker / writer / tv personality Theo van Gogh was murdered, there was a lot of unrest and mosques weren't safe.

Something which tends to get forgotten is that a lot of key services in the UK would collapse without immigrant labour at all levels, in particular the NHS and public transport.

Syzygy wrote: Something which tends to get forgotten is that a lot of key services in the UK would collapse without immigrant labour at all levels, in particular the NHS and public transport.

The collapse of the NHS would be quite a blow to us but the public transport systums is already one great steaming heap of S**t

sleeper wrote: Syzygy wrote: Something which tends to get forgotten is that a lot of key services in the UK would collapse without immigrant labour at all levels, in particular the NHS and public transport. The collapse of the NHS would be quite a blow to us but the public transport systums is already one great steaming heap of S**t

True, but that's mostly due to decades of under investment followed by a disastrously implemented privatisation scheme. Recent industrial action in the public transport sector has generally been over safety issues rather than pay.

oliverstoned wrote: We have at least 15% of hooligans in the population. And they become more and more numerous, for the reasons we know.That's the big problem.

That sounds just like Brittan