I think overrated is overrated....

or is that underrated is overrated?

or overrated is underrated?

or is underrated underrated?

Hell....now I went and confused myself

No...

In all serious both Underrated and Overated are overused .But a ban? Then we're just gonna start banning everything. it becomes hostile, we kill the jews... and the board crumbles and splits into two boards.I've seen it happen. When you start banning things like that, its the beggining of the end

I often wonder if these threads about "recommend me some symphonic prog", "are ... overrated", "compare Genesis and Yes" should simply be closed. Why? Because they are distracting people from the

REVIEWS

which should be what this website is all about. The time spent for writing posts in those threads would be better spent on some quality reviews for small bands ...

Annoying threads indeed!

Mike,

You are always the voice of reason,my friend.

Do any of you guys have a sense of  humour?

sheesh!

I have a sense of humor. See, here's a joke:

What did Jon Anderson say when Steve Howe asked him if he wanted to hold hands?

YES!!!!

 I'm a genius...

Alagithil wrote: I have a sense of humor. See, here's a joke: What did Jon Anderson say when Steve Howe asked him if he wanted to hold hands?   YES!!!!    I'm a genius...

If you have a day job, dont give it up

micky wrote: Snow Dog wrote: Is posting overrated? on a beautiful sunny Saturday morning it sure as hell is.

You're obviously nowhere near I am then!

Senior Members are overrated!  We should all go back to being groupies!

what can we do to improve watch_maker's rating?

No, the threads should not be banned because they are a reality check. An example was someone reviewed Genesis's 'Tresspass' yesterday and gave it 5 stars. Jeeezzz, give me a break, that album is so damn awefull! 'Fragile' was also reviewed and given 2 stars. A true prog classic that 'Tresspass' dosn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath. This was just 'tactical' reviewing to jump 'Tresspass' up the charts. If someone had just found this site and read those reviews they would have probably have gone out and bought Tresspass and never bought another prog album again.

Like I say, these type's of threads keep thing a bit more realistic!

chopper wrote: Progger wrote: No, the threads should not be banned because they are a reality check. An example was someone reviewed Genesis's 'Tresspass' yesterday and gave it 5 stars. Jeeezzz, give me a break, that album is so damn awefull! 'Fragile' was also reviewed and given 2 stars. A true prog classic that 'Tresspass' dosn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath. This was just 'tactical' reviewing to jump 'Tresspass' up the charts. If someone had just found this site and read those reviews they would have probably have gone out and bought Tresspass and never bought another prog album again. Like I say, these type's of threads keep thing a bit more realistic! Actually I think Trespass is under-rated and Fragile is over-rated!

As Royal Jelly said, you need to have some perspective, no other big Prog' band has made such a dramatic change in one album, Yes debut was average, ELP was great, ITCOTCK was outstanding, Piper was also excellent, so you could expect something even better for their second album.

But Genesis started as a poppy band opf kids searching for a hit single and like an act of magic in the next album they were creating excellent Prog'  in a level many Progressive bands never achieved, and for God's sake, they were 19 year kids with no previous history.

Fripp, Lake, Palmer, Howe, etc, had already played in decent bands before their Prog experience, some were already famous, Genesis members were just leaving school when released Trespass and only played in two school bands.

How can you doubt of the importance of this album and it's versatility, they go from the incredibly melancholic and beautiful White Mountain to the dramatic and breathtaking The Knife in their first Prog release.

Give Trespass some credit, I rated it with 4 stars but stated clearly that deserves 4.5 stars).

But Fragile is not as strong as Yes album or near the level of Close to the Edge, it's an average album for Yes standart, I also rated it with 4 stars and honestly doesn't deserve more, probably less IMO.

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: As Royal Jelly said, you need to have some perspective, no other big Prog' band has made such a dramatic change in one album, Yes debut was average, ELP was great, ITCOTCK was outstanding, Piper was also excellent, so you could expect something even better for their second album. But Genesis started as a poppy band opf kids searching for a hit single and like an act of magic in the next album they were creating excellent Prog'  in a level many Progressive bands never achieved, and for God's sake, they were 19 year kids with no previous history. Fripp, Lake, Palmer, Howe, etc, had already played in decent bands before their Prog experience, some were already famous, Genesis members were just leaving school when released Trespass and only played in two school bands. How can you doubt of the importance of this album and it's versatility, they go from the incredibly melancholic and beautiful White Mountain to the dramatic and breathtaking The Knife in their first Prog release. Give Trespass some credit, I rated it with 4 stars but stated clearly that deserves 4.5 stars). But Fragile is not as strong as Yes album or near the level of Close to the Edge, it's an average album for Yes standart, I also rated it with 4 stars and honestly doesn't deserve more, probably less IMO. Iván

I find yours and Jelly Beans arguments almost laughable and defineatly irrelevent. Sure they were only 19 year old kids learning their craft, hence the song writing, production and playing on 'Tresspass' lacking in these qualities. Their age and charm should not warrent any album to be given 5 stars and called a masterpiece on that basis.

My guess is that 'Yes' and 'ELP' and 'Genesis' are all roughly the same age, yet 'Yes's' and 'ELP's' mastery and superior skills in musicianship and songwriting are clearly evident on prog classics like 'The Yes Album', 'Fragile' and 'Tarkus'.

Some reviewers are too sentimental and are being totally subjective with no actual objective thought content going into reviews simply because it's an album by their favourite bands. Especially when albums like 'Tresspass' are given 5  stars and masterpiece status. Absolutely ridiculous!

Progger wrote:

I find yours and Jelly Beans arguments almost laughable and defineatly irrelevent. Sure they were only 19 year old kids learning their craft, hence the song writing, production and playing on 'Tresspass' lacking in these qualities. Their age and charm should not warrent any album to be given 5 stars and called a masterpiece on that basis.

This is only one of my arguments, not the basic one, why must people chose just part of a post, take it out of context and argue about that? I also talk about the quality of the music, the versatility of the songs but you reduce all my post to the age matter.

For me Trespass is only after Foxtrot and Nursery Cryme in quality and better than any Yes album except Close to the Edge, but I have to admit it's only my personal opinion.

Progger wrote:

My guess is that 'Yes' and 'ELP' and 'Genesis' are all roughly the same age

You're WRONG:

• Jon Anderson was born in 1944
• Tony Kaye in 1946
• Peter Banks 1947
• Keith Emerson in 1944
• Greg Lake 1947

Only Carl Palmer and Bill Bruford were roughly the same age of Genesis members, bnut none of them was the main soingwritter and Carl Palmer had a lot of previous experience).

All Genesis members were born between 1950 and 1951 (Tony Philips almost 1952 for 7 days), this means that when Genesis made their debut Peter Gabriel had 18/19 and Jon Anderson or Keith Emerson had 25/26, that's a whole world of  difference in musical experience.

Also as an interesting extra data, Genesis was formed in 1967 (well, before, but that year Jonathan King chanf¿ged the band's name), this means they were 16/17 years old when the band was officially born.

By the way, I also mention previous professional experience, what seems you also haven't read:

All Yes and ELP members (except Bill Bruford who is as young as Genesis members) had previous commercial band experience, (Jon Anderson - The Warriors; Chris Squire - The Self and also The Syns with Peter Banks; Tony Kaye at least 4 bands and Orchestras; Keith Emerson - The Nice; Greg Lake - King Crimson and The Gods; Carl Palmer - The Chants  and Arthur Brown, etc).

While Genesis members (due to their age) only had played in Garden Wall (Banks and Gabriel at the Age of 15) and Anon (Rutherford and Phillips at the same age), both high school bands

Progger wrote:

yet 'Yes's' and 'ELP's' mastery and superior skills in musicianship and songwriting are clearly evident on prog classics like 'The Yes Album', 'Fragile' and 'Tarkus'.

Is this a fact or just your personal opinion?

I'm sure most Prog Archives users will disagree because while Genesis has 4 albums in the top 15 (of he best 100 list), Yes has only 2 and you won't foind an ELP album until N° 45.

So before you laugh at our opinions, check your information and quote all the post, in my case I accept your opinion about Yes and ELP even when strongly disagree.

Progger wrote:

Some reviewers are too sentimental and are being totally subjective with no actual objective thought content going into reviews simply because it's an album by their favourite bands. Especially when albums like 'Tresspass' are given 5  stars and masterpiece status. Absolutely ridiculous!

Please Progger tell me what albums and bands should I rate with 5 stars so that you don't consider my taste and opinion  ridiculous.

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: Progger wrote: I find yours and Jelly Beans arguments almost laughable and defineatly irrelevent. Sure they were only 19 year old kids learning their craft, hence the song writing, production and playing on 'Tresspass' lacking in these qualities. Their age and charm should not warrent any album to be given 5 stars and called a masterpiece on that basis. This is only one of my arguments, not the basic one, why must people chose just part of a post, take it out of context and argue about that? I also talk about the quality of the music, the versatility of the songs but you reduce all my post to the age matter.

I don't mean to pick a fight, Ivan, but you do this all the time.

stonebeard wrote: ivan_2068 wrote: Progger wrote: I find yours and Jelly Beans arguments almost laughable and defineatly irrelevent. Sure they were only 19 year old kids learning their craft, hence the song writing, production and playing on 'Tresspass' lacking in these qualities. Their age and charm should not warrent any album to be given 5 stars and called a masterpiece on that basis. This is only one of my arguments, not the basic one, why must people chose just part of a post, take it out of context and argue about that? I also talk about the quality of the music, the versatility of the songs but you reduce all my post to the age matter. I don't mean to pick a fight, Ivan, but you do this all the time.

I accept my part of guilt about sometimes not quoting all the post, but always tried not to take things out of context or reduce many arguments to only one.

But what I never did is to laugh at the personal taste of anybody, I'm the first one to say that every person is entitled to his/her opinion.

No problem or fight Stonebeard, I also accept my errors

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: I'm sure most Prog Archives users will disagree because while Genesis has 4 albums in the top 15 (of he best 100 list),, Yes has only 2 and you won't foind an ELP album until N° 45. Iván

The only reason for this is the corrupt system that is used to compile the chart! It is the same 'few' reviewers giving crappy albums like 'Tresspass' five stars over and over again for tactical reasons to 'bump' them up the charts. Hence,the charts don't reflect 'most' prog archives users oppinions as you wrongly state.  The charts would have more credibilty if reviewers were only allowed to critique an album once! Something that should be seiously considered in my oppinion! You would defineatly see one or two Genesis albums drop down the charts like flies!

Tresspass should not be in any chart top 50 period!

Again you only quote one part of my answer and with great strategy don't reply what you know you were wrong

1. Why haven't you accepted you were wrong in your post about the ages?
2. Why don't you accept that I gave many arguments as valid as your opinion?
3. Why don't you accept I supported everything I said?

But ok, let's play with your rules

Progger wrote:

The only reason for this is the corrupt system that is used to compile the chart!

Really you're incredible:

If you believe our system is corrupt, then you have two alternatives, try to change it giving ideas or simply leave this corrupt forum.

Progger wrote:

It is the same reviewers giving crappy albums like 'Tresspass' five stars over and over again for tactical reasons to 'bump' them up the charts

What the hell are you talking?

• I have never done more than one review for any album,
• I have never rated any album without makng a review where I support my argument,
• There are even reviews I would love to change, but I believe it would be dishonest to do it.
• I never used more than one nickname.
• I never seen any reviewer rating an album twice.
• Trespass is crappy becauseyou say so?

Give arguments, dogmas are only for religion and you're not the Prog Archives Pope.

Progger wrote:

It would have more credibilty if reviewers were only allowed to critique an album once! Something that should be seiously considered in my oppinion!  You would defineatly see one or two Genesis albums drop down the charts like flies!

I believe the system works that way, if not, the administrators take good care to delete one of the two reviews

Progger wrote:

Tresspass should not be in any chart top 50 period!

Who you believe you are to decide Trespass is a crappy album?, Maybe the Prog Archives Pinochet or the Progressive Rock Mussolini who believes he owns the hoy truth.

Must we accept this as a fact because you say so.

I stop here because I'm being more polite than you deserve and I don't know how much more I will stand. 

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: Progger wrote: It would have more credibilty if reviewers were only allowed to critique an album once! Something that should be seiously considered in my oppinion!  You would defineatly see one or two Genesis albums drop down the charts like flies! I believe the system works that way, if not, the administrators take good care to delete one of the two reviews

You are wrong! Many times when reading reviews  a reviewer will say things like, ''when I first reviewed this album.....'' I suggest here and now that reviers are allowed to review an album only once!!!

Progger wrote: ivan_2068 wrote: Progger wrote: It would have more credibilty if reviewers were only allowed to critique an album once! Something that should be seiously considered in my oppinion!  You would defineatly see one or two Genesis albums drop down the charts like flies! I believe the system works that way, if not, the administrators take good care to delete one of the two reviews You are wrong! Many times when reading reviews  a reviewer will say things like, ''when I first reviewed this album.....'' I suggest here and now that reviers are allowed to review an album only once!!!

This means they changed their review and their rating or that they deleted their previous review or that they reviewed the same album on other forum or website as rateyourmusic.com.

 I'm here for almost two years and never seen a reviewer make a double critic or rating of an album.

I suggest you  to take the "here and now" part of your suggestion because neither you or me are here to give orders.

Check those reviews and see if the name is repetead, if it is, then report it, if  not then shut up!!!!! 

Iván

BTW: Again you haven't answered anything I said

Alagithil wrote: I have a sense of humor. See, here's a joke: What did Jon Anderson say when Steve Howe asked him if he wanted to hold hands?   YES!!!!    I'm a genius...

<snicker>