Where to put CHICAGO?
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20708
Printed Date: April 25 2025 at 08:31
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Where to put CHICAGO?
Posted By: jojim
Subject: Where to put CHICAGO?
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 17:49
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In a few threads I discussed where the group CHICAGO is belonging to. For me the first 3 or 4 Albums are prog. I have some sheet music of their 2. album. That is pretty complex. And the first album and the third are pretty heavy stuff. Not for normal listeners. - A thread answer last week told me: "CHICAGO is not prog - go to another forum." I cannot understand why CHICAGO should not be progressive. Only because they use elements of jazz and a few trumpets? For me they always had the incredients of more than rock-jazz. Their guitarist TERRY KATH is not for Christmas evening. Is there anybody who will second this thougt? For me it is - in the same breath - absolutely not clear what a group like RUSH is doing in the archives. What makes them prog and the early CHICAGO not. ------------- YES - Close to the edge / UK - UK / GENESIS - The lamb lies down / KING CRIMSON - Discipline / MIKE OLDFIELD - Tubular bells / JETHRO TULL - Aqualung / GENTLE GIANT - Three friends / TMO - IMF |
Replies:
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 17:56
Far away from me.  ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 18:00
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Topic: Where to put CHICAGO?
In the bin. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 18:01
In the right section for starters....
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Posted By: JayDee
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 18:03
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I love most of Chicagos songs (esp, 25 or 6 to 4), but i dont think they belong here. ------------- 
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Posted By: jojim
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 18:17
 That is exactly my question! Why not. What is wrong with CHICAGO. The trumpets, the measure, the drummer. Their Debut Album was very revolutionary concering the lyrics. Nothing with love and so. And their music was the same. Perhaps here in the forum there are not many people knowing the music of the early CHICAGO. GENESIS cannot be sized as prog after "ABACAP". The same with CHICAGO. They became a hitgroup after 1978. Where to put them? ------------- YES - Close to the edge / UK - UK / GENESIS - The lamb lies down / KING CRIMSON - Discipline / MIKE OLDFIELD - Tubular bells / JETHRO TULL - Aqualung / GENTLE GIANT - Three friends / TMO - IMF |
Majestic_Mayhem wrote:Posted By: Zac M
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 18:58
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Pfffff, I don't like the negative responses. Chicago were Prog through thier fourth album, Live at Carnegie Hall, which is excellent by the way. After that, they had their moments, in Seven for instance (just listen to "Devil's Sweet," "Prelude/Aire"). After Seven, it was all downhill so to say. Although I enjoy much of their commercial releases, I still think that increaseingly got worse, especially after Terry Kath died. The 80s stuff is fun, catchy pop with brass arrangements and nothing else. I stopped liking them after 19, 21 is just bloody awful. And no, I don't think they should be included, considering only like 20% at most of their ouput can be considered Prog according to the site. ------------- "Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression." -Merleau-Ponty |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 19:03
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You know what they call that don't you?
Tough! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 19:09
Zac M Special Collaborator  
Canterbury/Jazz-rock specialist Joined: July 03 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Online Posts: 1791 =  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: Zac M
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 19:11
Ok..........I was just posting what I thought.........man, I haven't talked to you forever and you post something that seems a bit negative, not very friendly.......guess things have changed around here..... ------------- "Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression." -Merleau-Ponty |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 20:38
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I think Ian was joking Zac.
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Posted By: Zac M
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 20:44
Probably, I've just been a bit on the edge lately, really stressed out. I think I exaggarrated a bit. Sorry about that Snowy. ------------- "Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression." -Merleau-Ponty |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 24 2006 at 02:50
Because of 'If You Leave You Now' I agree.Too much crud although '25 or 6 to 4' is a great rock track. |
Posted By: Trotsky
Date Posted: March 24 2006 at 03:27
Another way of looking at it! Seriously, I have heard from many people that the first three studio albums from Chicago are worthy of consideration, but I myself am not in a position to comment ... I can say that the songs I've heard (on compilations) that date from this era are interesting, although as singles, they are not likely to be the most progressive cuts ... Needless to say by the late 70s (Robert Lamm actually blamed it on the dual combination of Kath's death and the success of If You Leave Me Now) ... Chicago had become largely a stale pop band with a brass section ... I think the thought of all those Peter Cetera ballads being included on this site is just too much for many people to handle! ------------- "Death to Utopia! Death to faith! Death to love! Death to hope?" thunders the 20th century. "Surrender, you pathetic dreamer.” "No" replies the unhumbled optimist "You are only the present." |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 24 2006 at 04:08
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I'm sorry too Zac.I guess your "Pffffff" touched a nerve. But seriously....................in the bin! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 24 2006 at 04:11
I haven't heard 25 or 6 to 4, but I played my wifes "The Heart Of Chicago" last night to check them out. Anyone seriously want me to add them to the list? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Zac M
Date Posted: March 24 2006 at 04:12
 C'mon Ian, Peter Cetera loves you  ------------- "Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression." -Merleau-Ponty |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: March 24 2006 at 06:19
First four plus 7? are brass rock (or rock jazz), which I have argued long and hard is a subdivision of jazz rock. However, when a band is proud to have all their album from their third called 3 through to 25 (and no doubt beyond!!) and hardly done brass rock on record in a quarter of a century but gone for the complacent AOR market, it is difficult to justify them here.* As ever the PA system requires that bands are either completely in or out, with no flexibility to admit bands listing valid albums only but leaving the invalid out. Checking BST out, their discography indicates far greater consistency and better justification for being here - but BST will have to wait until somebody wants to submit their case.
In the meanwhile consider (but a list written with a strong sense of here we go again): If Satisfaction Heaven Chase Ides oF March Dreams Average White Band Glueleg Cold Blood Tower Of Power Funkadelic Kelvynator Brecker Brothers Band Morrisey Mullen Band Hubbards Cupboard No Jazz
etc.
* although many would argue the same for Beatles, Purple and Queen |
Posted By: JayDee
Date Posted: March 24 2006 at 08:31
Man, thats a great song! You should give a listen. sounds proggy, but again, i really dont think they belong here, for some reasons i cant spell out. . i have that Heart of Chicago CD... not mine actually, but my girlfriend's -------------
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Posted By: ANDREW
Date Posted: March 24 2006 at 08:53
IF is a great jazz-rock/prog band!!! |
Posted By: Fragile
Date Posted: March 24 2006 at 08:55
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Is it the 1st of April today?????!!!!!!!! |
Posted By: rockandrail
Date Posted: March 24 2006 at 09:12
Chicago is in the American Middle west in a state called Illinois. This is the best place to put Chicago. I would suggest on lake Michigan shores. ------------- Pierre R, the man who lost his signature |
Posted By: Chicapah
Date Posted: March 24 2006 at 09:40
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Deep Purple started out Prog, then went totally commercial rock. Chicago did the same, they just went ballad-heavy. They should go where Deep Purple is in the forum. Otherwise, half the bands on this site should be dropped. (I guess that's another can of worms to open. Or not.) ------------- "Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: March 24 2006 at 10:46
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Not here, anyway.
------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: video vertigo
Date Posted: March 24 2006 at 15:27
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http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive-rock.asp - http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive-rock.asp ------------- "The rock and roll business is pretty absurd, but the world of serious music is much worse." - Zappa |
Posted By: bsurmano
Date Posted: March 24 2006 at 15:37
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Dick Heath has said it right. Chicago's first four albums deserve kind of prog attention. Their cover of Spencer Davis' '' I'm a man '' (from 'Transit Authority' album) is really brilliant in jazz-rock/prog terms, but later work shows some other directions taken. This Chicago question inevitably raises then BST theme and so on.. From Dick's list I would like to point out that despite a lot of recent '' IF '' discussion, and full and unanimous support of all forum participants for this band to be included in Prog Archive, unfortunately , so far , nothing happened. And Prog Archive without IF...Let's do something about it. ------------- 'Sundown,yellow moon, I replay the past I know every scene by heart, they all went by so fast..... Either I'm too sensitive or else I'm gettin' soft.' Bob Dylan |
Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: March 24 2006 at 16:27
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------------- 'Like so many of you I've got my doubts about how much to contribute to the already rich among us...' Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom |
I was going to to make that joke!!!!Posted By: Witchwoodhermit
Date Posted: March 25 2006 at 22:40
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Early Chicago is great stuff and deserves to be here. Their later work is more adult contemporary and should not be included here. ------------- Here I'm shadowed by a dragon fig tree's fan ringed by ants and musing over man. |
Posted By: Empathy
Date Posted: March 25 2006 at 23:39
, so was I!That pic of Peter Cetera in the smoking jacket with the dog is just painfully hilarious. |
Posted By: anthamatten
Date Posted: February 06 2007 at 20:39
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If the first and second album are not prog then Genesis first album (the one before Tresspas) and their latest album (Calling ...) are not prog either. But we agree that Genesis has contributed to prog rock. - So what's the problem with Chicago. They made 3 records of prog. Point final. A ------------- Be the one of my dreams |
Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: February 06 2007 at 21:38
I had indeed... BST had a great bunch of complex songs that IMO overtake the more radio-friendly ones (being good pop songs too).... songs (or versions) like the Variations of a Theme By ES, the Rolling Stone's "Sympathy For The Devil", the pseudo-mediaeval "The Battle", "40000 Headmen", etc... their late 70's output is equally very interesting (if not more)... if jazz-rock is a category, why aren't bands like BST or IF (finally heard some great samples
 ) in it?... I could also make a case about Chicago but their prog material is less extensive, limited to their first 4 albums and the rest of their vast discography destined to AOR EDIT: just realised the post was made before I made the suggestion... the term "brass rock" was brought up.. ------------- Jesus Gabriel |
Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: February 06 2007 at 21:52
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I love the more rocking songs like I'm a Man and 25 or 6 to 4, but those dudes rocked when in their prime and continued with beautifull stuff long after.
if they were prog however i doubt, though indeed the first 4 albums suggest they where.
there should always be a place for beauty within the narrow confines of a home. ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 06 2007 at 23:23
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Then Boston also please!!! Chicago IMO was never Prog, interesting first 2 albums yes but Prog no way.Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: Witchwoodhermit
Date Posted: February 07 2007 at 00:06
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[QUOTE=Ivan_Melgar_M]
Then Boston also please!!! Chicago IMO was never Prog, interesting first 2 albums yes but Prog no way.Iván
Jumping into the fire.
 Yeah, Ivan, Boston sure.
 Maybe we could have a threesome. Throw in Rush and Triumph, and we can have a big fat, who can squeal louder than the local alley cats competition.
How about a loose fan belt? Is that prog too?
 ------------- Here I'm shadowed by a dragon fig tree's fan ringed by ants and musing over man. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 07 2007 at 00:39
Thanks, you're encouraging me to ask Toto also
BTW; Boston was just sarcasm
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Witchwoodhermit
Date Posted: February 07 2007 at 01:06
Thanks, you're encouraging me to ask Toto also
BTW; Boston was just sarcasm
Iván
Well, now I just feel silly. ------------- Here I'm shadowed by a dragon fig tree's fan ringed by ants and musing over man. |
Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: February 07 2007 at 16:52
Bad analogy Ivan... if you were to take late Genesis as an example then perhaps (great example of bands which the majority of their songs were pop).. but Boston never had (to my ears anyway) anything progressive released; Chicago's first albums had. Why not include them if they were an important part of the jazz-rock (brass rock section) subgenre (in the early days there was them and BST; although I make a stronger case for the latter) ------------- Jesus Gabriel |
Posted By: Witchwoodhermit
Date Posted: February 07 2007 at 17:22
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^^^Um, I think Ivan already said Boston was sarcasm. ------------- Here I'm shadowed by a dragon fig tree's fan ringed by ants and musing over man. |
Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: February 07 2007 at 17:25
I know, just making my point ------------- Jesus Gabriel |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 07 2007 at 20:43
There's no comparison between Genesis and Chicago.
1.- Genesis during their Prog years was an icon, a pioneer of Prog Rock, the most influential band ever in the genre (That's a fact, most Neo is Genesis inspired in higher or leser degree) Chicago is essentially an adult Pop band that influenced no Prog band.
2.- Genesis has seven 100% studioProg albums:
Two partially Prog albums
One Pop album with Prog elements
Four non Prog albums one with at least one bad or good Prog song:
One Hybrid
So 9 out of their 14 studio albums are PROGRESSIVE ROCK while only 5 are not Prog (Counting ABACRAP as non Prog), this means 65.7 of Genesis studio albums albums are Prog while 35.3 are non Prog.
The argument of more Genesis Pop songs is as Bald Friedre would say: A FALACY, beoing that Prog Tracks in average are 3 times longer than Pop tracks
Genesis has three 100% Prog Live albums
Two partially Prog:
And two or three non Prog live albums with a couple of Prog tracks Most of their stuff is Prog and iconic Prog.
3.- Chicago on the other hand has 30 albums numbered, several box sets and CVDs, out of them only one is remotely related to Prog Related, maybe two or three and 27 are PLAIN POP, this means that at the most 10% of their releases are remotely Prog Related.
4.- Boston plays AOR which is a conservative POP evolution of Prog, I believe there's much more in common between two essentially mainstream Pop Aorish bands and one of the biggest 5 Prog bands of history.
Why that obsession of adding remotely Prog Related bands instead of worrying about 100% Prog ones not here?
My 2 cents.
Iván
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Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: February 08 2007 at 09:15
Point taken.. still there's no way to compare arguably one of the first experimental jazz-rock bands with an all-the-way AOR band... agree that their 80's stuff was easy-listening balladeering but there's also the influence factor... symphonic prog is not all there is you know.
Even so, I won't lose my sleep over Chicago (I wouldn't had started a thread about them in the first place), mostly because they strayed too early as opposed to BS & T who made a more constant approach to experimentation; as well as Herbie Hancock ------------- Jesus Gabriel |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 08 2007 at 11:05
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Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: February 08 2007 at 14:40
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No need to be remembered just making sure... while "never" is a bit exaggerated I guess there's not enough "proggy" material from Chicago... but for me there's a relation with prog in their early 70's works, although it only represents about the 10% of their career ------------- Jesus Gabriel |
Posted By: akin
Date Posted: February 08 2007 at 20:21
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Chicago has good albums, first four ones mainly, which should been
check by every prog fan, but the rest, my friend, is a matter of taste. As for their inclusion, try again in 2009, maybe then there will be grounds to such addition, but I will not support this. |
Posted By: MadcapLaughs84
Date Posted: February 12 2007 at 11:20
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Not even in Prog Related. ------------- 
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Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: February 14 2007 at 04:36
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i doubt if Chicago are any way Prog, they're a great band, jazz-rock with Psyche leanings..?
-------------  Prog Archives Tour Van 
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