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Which band should hang it up?

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Topic: Which band should hang it up?
Posted By: snowdogx1
Subject: Which band should hang it up?
Date Posted: March 25 2006 at 16:38

So, what bands do we think should "hang it up" - at least producing new music wise - due to age, loss of creativity, etc? I'm very much tempted to say Yes, having been underwhelmed by their recent new material, but they're still awesome in concert. What are your thoughts?




Replies:
Posted By: Dr Know
Date Posted: March 25 2006 at 16:52

Rolling Stones and Deep Purple

As far as Prog goes I can´t think of anyone.



Posted By: eugene
Date Posted: March 25 2006 at 17:22
Rush! They should have stopped it 20 years ago, for Christ sake!

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carefulwiththataxe


Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: March 25 2006 at 17:49
mmm... I don't know... ¿IQ?... they were great on 2 albums, all the rest is, or 80's pop, or not as clever as "The Wake" or "Subterranea". Their "prog" material is always like a bad attempt to re-use some of the great moments of those two albums.

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¡Beware of the Bee!
   


Posted By: Rosescar
Date Posted: March 25 2006 at 18:00
McCartney
Bowie

Ironically, Bowie claimed he could finally release as much albums as he wanted without his record label putting a limit on it for commercial reasons - since that statement which was around Reality (2003?) no album has been released yet in three years time.


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http://www.soundclick.com/rosescar/ - My music!

"THE AUDIENCE WERE generally drugged. (In Holland, always)." - Robert Fripp


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 25 2006 at 18:01
Originally posted by eugene eugene wrote:

Rush! They should have stopped it 20 years ago, for Christ sake!



good call... though you never know,  they may have a good album left in them.  I thought the last great album they did was Signals in what... the early 80's.   Though how many people gave Yes up for dead and they came back with 2 good albums in '99 and '01 and may be thinking about a new album next year.


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: HeirToRuin
Date Posted: March 25 2006 at 18:03
If Dream Theater doesn't make a real progressive album soon, I'll be tempted to say they should split up and do other things.  At least the side projects aren't a bunch ripoffs.

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ARTEMIA - http://www.reverbnation.com/artemiamusic" rel="nofollow - http://www.reverbnation.com/artemiamusic
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 25 2006 at 18:08
Originally posted by HeirToRuin HeirToRuin wrote:

If Dream Theater doesn't make a real progressive album soon, I'll be tempted to say they should split up and do other things.  At least the side projects aren't a bunch ripoffs.


didn't they just release an album like last year.... I haven't heard it... was it THAT bad hahahah.


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: March 25 2006 at 21:10

Originally posted by eugene eugene wrote:

Rush! They should have stopped it 20 years ago, for Christ sake!

 

 Get real!



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https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay


Posted By: Rashikal
Date Posted: March 25 2006 at 21:12
king crimson, rush, yes, dream theater

i love all of these bands besides dream theater (who shouldnt have started making music in the first place)


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listen to Hella


Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: March 25 2006 at 21:22
Originally posted by Dr Know Dr Know wrote:

Deep Purple

They are still making great albums! I love Bananas and ROTD



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http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm


Posted By: hamham
Date Posted: March 25 2006 at 21:23
Originally posted by Rashikal Rashikal wrote:

who shouldnt have started making music in the first place
why


Posted By: Someo Therguy
Date Posted: March 25 2006 at 21:26

Definitely NOT prog, but the one band I wish would go away is Aerosmith.



Posted By: White Feather
Date Posted: March 25 2006 at 22:04
any great band from the 70`s thats not producing studio releases currently but getting by on greatest hits, best of   and ultimates should really announce their retirement for the sake of preserving what fond memories we have left of them. That way we can directly hold record companies at blame for the greed of milking out extra  $$$  and not the artist 

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Posted By: Pafnutij
Date Posted: March 25 2006 at 23:33
Dream Theater should've stopped after "Six Degrees".


Posted By: HeirToRuin
Date Posted: March 25 2006 at 23:49
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by HeirToRuin HeirToRuin wrote:

If Dream Theater doesn't make a real progressive album soon, I'll be tempted to say they should split up and do other things.  At least the side projects aren't a bunch ripoffs.


didn't they just release an album like last year.... I haven't heard it... was it THAT bad hahahah.



Yes, they did...Octavarium...

All but the title track were a bunch of unimaginative common ideas getting rehashed and all sounding like really good songs that other bands would be better suited to play.  It included as close of a ripoff to the band Muse as is possible to do without being Muse.  Other heavily borrowed acts include Megadeth on track 1, Linkin Park on track 3, Coldplay on track 4, Muse somewhat on track 5 as well as 6, and practically every major prog band of the 70s and Spock's Beard in the title track (which really was a cool song...the only really strong thing to come out of the album...and that's saying alot because the first 12 minutes seem to go on forever).

The lyrical content has been slowly getting worse since Kevin Moore left.  More angsty Portnoy lyrics on alcoholism for the 3rd album in a row...and Petrucci writing more sentimental stuff....and Portnoy whining about obsessive fans that seem to want too much and never appreciate anything.  Of course, the older I get, the more I realize that a group that I really liked in their prime of originality has fallen prey to what occurs with the majority of bands after they've been together too long when the creative juices run dry.


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ARTEMIA - http://www.reverbnation.com/artemiamusic" rel="nofollow - http://www.reverbnation.com/artemiamusic
L.i.E. - http://www.reverbnati


Posted By: Guillermo
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 00:16

Not Prog, but I think that "The Who" (Daltrey & Townshend   & Co.) should stop using the name of the band. Without Keith Moon it was harder...and since John Entwistle died I can`t see any real need to use the name of the band... other of the need of money.

Foreigner:without Lou Gramm and other original members apart from Mick Jones...

Journey: without Steve Perry...

Creedence Clearwater Revisited.

Grand Funk Railroad: without songwriter/singer/guitarist Mark Farner.

Queen: without Freddie Mercury and John Deacon.

Rush: with the release of a CD full of covers they demonstrated that they are really tired.

David Bowie: He is a good singer but I never liked his music anyway.

I read yesterday that Barbra Streisand is going to do another "Farewell Tour"...earning 2 million dollars for each concert...



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Avatar: Photo of Solar Eclipse, Mexico City, July 1991. A great experience to see. Maybe once in a lifetime.


Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 01:17

The Mars Volta: You've done enough damage already! Please move on!

Ultimatums (do this or pack it up):

Jethro Tull: Make a new album already!

Yes: Make a new album already/write interesting music

King Crimson: Sart writing symphonic music again (rehash the glory days of the 70s???)

Porcupine Tree: Stop playing alternative crap! We need more stuff like The Sky Moves Sideways



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Posted By: darren
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 07:31

The Moody Blues. Last I heard, they have been reduced to a Vegas act. I guess if you don't want to retire, no major label will let you create what you want and people will still want to hear you play your old hits, who am I to say?



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"they locked up a man who wanted to rule the world.
the fools
they locked up the wrong man."
- Leonard Cohen


Posted By: eddietrooper
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 07:39
Why don't you all let the artists go on as much as they want? If you don't like their new releases just don't buy them. I enjoy the latest Yes albums but for example I don't like The Moody Blues last ones, but for me that is not a reason for The Moody Blues to disappear. I simply won't buy their albums and will enjoy their early work, and perhaps other people will like their latest work. If there is one only person who enjoys them, then let them live. It's just a matter of taste.


Posted By: Arsillus
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 08:36
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by eugene eugene wrote:

Rush! They should have stopped it 20 years ago, for Christ sake!

 

 Get real!

No! Rush will play until they die. Vapor Trails was awesome.



Posted By: White Feather
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 08:39
Vapor Trails was awesome ?  I wanted to like it but I just couldn`t get past the bad engineering

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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 09:35
Originally posted by cuncuna cuncuna wrote:

mmm... I don't know... ¿IQ?... they were great on 2 albums, all the rest is, or 80's pop, or not as clever as "The Wake" or "Subterranea". Their "prog" material is always like a bad attempt to re-use some of the great moments of those two albums.

IQ hang up?

Have you not heard their last album?


Posted By: eddietrooper
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 09:43

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by cuncuna cuncuna wrote:

mmm... I don't know... ¿IQ?... they were great on 2 albums, all the rest is, or 80's pop, or not as clever as "The Wake" or "Subterranea". Their "prog" material is always like a bad attempt to re-use some of the great moments of those two albums.

IQ hang up?

Have you not heard their last album?

 I'm almost sure that cuncuna hasn't listened to Dark Matter. For me one of the best prog albums of the last 20 years. And even better than The Wake or Subterranea.



Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 09:52
Yes. Please chaps, just stop it.


Posted By: MajesterX
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 09:53
Originally posted by hamham hamham wrote:

Originally posted by Rashikal Rashikal wrote:

who shouldnt have started making music in the first place
why


I think he has no reason. I mean c'mon, why do you dispise them so much?
 


Posted By: Paulieg
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 10:43
Originally posted by Dr Know Dr Know wrote:

Rolling Stones and Deep Purple

As far as Prog goes I can´t think of anyone.

I saw Purple in concert last year with Satriani and they absolutely blew him off the stage!!!!  Gillan sounded great!!!!



Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 10:45
Originally posted by eddietrooper eddietrooper wrote:

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by cuncuna cuncuna wrote:

mmm... I don't know... ¿IQ?... they were great on 2 albums, all the rest is, or 80's pop, or not as clever as "The Wake" or "Subterranea". Their "prog" material is always like a bad attempt to re-use some of the great moments of those two albums.

IQ hang up?

Have you not heard their last album?

 I'm almost sure that cuncuna hasn't listened to Dark Matter. For me one of the best prog albums of the last 20 years. And even better than The Wake or Subterranea.

I didn't think it was that special. I think Pendragon is a much better neo-prog band than IQ, but I seem to be in the minority.



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Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 10:52
Originally posted by eddietrooper eddietrooper wrote:

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by cuncuna cuncuna wrote:

mmm... I don't know... ¿IQ?... they were great on 2 albums, all the rest is, or 80's pop, or not as clever as "The Wake" or "Subterranea". Their "prog" material is always like a bad attempt to re-use some of the great moments of those two albums.

IQ hang up?

Have you not heard their last album?

 I'm almost sure that cuncuna hasn't listened to Dark Matter. For me one of the best prog albums of the last 20 years. And even better than The Wake or Subterranea.

I have all their albums. Dark Matter was extremely redundant, every part of every song was completely evident and expected (I was even able to guess what was about to happen with the melodies in almost every part of it). They are repeating subterranea over and over...



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¡Beware of the Bee!
   


Posted By: eddietrooper
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 11:07

 

Originally posted by cuncuna cuncuna wrote:

Originally posted by eddietrooper eddietrooper wrote:

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by cuncuna cuncuna wrote:

mmm... I don't know... ¿IQ?... they were great on 2 albums, all the rest is, or 80's pop, or not as clever as "The Wake" or "Subterranea". Their "prog" material is always like a bad attempt to re-use some of the great moments of those two albums.

IQ hang up?

Have you not heard their last album?

 I'm almost sure that cuncuna hasn't listened to Dark Matter. For me one of the best prog albums of the last 20 years. And even better than The Wake or Subterranea.

I have all their albums. Dark Matter was extremely redundant, every part of every song was completely evident and expected (I was even able to guess what was about to happen with the melodies in almost every part of it). They are repeating subterranea over and over...

 

OK , sorry.  Then it's just a matter of taste.

 

 



Posted By: transend
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 11:21
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

The Mars Volta: You've done enough damage already! Please move on!

Ultimatums (do this or pack it up):

Jethro Tull: Make a new album already!

Yes: Make a new album already/write interesting music

King Crimson: Sart writing symphonic music again (rehash the glory days of the 70s???)

Porcupine Tree: Stop playing alternative crap! We need more stuff like The Sky Moves Sideways

 

I could not agree more about these issues, however, I do like most of PT's material but prefer the earlier stuff. As for Tull and Yes, sh*t, I have never seen such a perfect display of metorphorically 'pumping gas' on the stage, they have been going through the motions too long, if they want to continue they NEED new material to not only invigorate us fans, but themselves also.



Posted By: transend
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 11:23
Also, Rush, well........they DO try new areas, I still think they have the will to keep exploring, but can we have a few more guitar solos and some synths on the next one please?


Posted By: Rashikal
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 11:27
Dream Theater is pompous, unlistenable instrument masturbation. they have no new ideas, it is all a rehash of their influences, and they play it off in a boring and insincere way. horrible band.

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listen to Hella


Posted By: FragileDT
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 11:36
Originally posted by Rashikal Rashikal wrote:

Dream Theater is pompous, unlistenable instrument
masturbation. they
have no new ideas, it is all a rehash of their influences, and they
play it off in a boring and insincere way. horrible band.


Thanks for your insight but you also did say that Crimson should hang it up.
Have you heard the Power to Believe? If you like Crimson I HIGHLY doubt you
think that album is bad or even just mediocre.

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One likes to believe
In the freedom of music
But glittering prizes
And endless Compromises
Shatter the illusion
Of integrity


Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 11:59
Originally posted by eddietrooper eddietrooper wrote:

 

Originally posted by cuncuna cuncuna wrote:

Originally posted by eddietrooper eddietrooper wrote:

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by cuncuna cuncuna wrote:

mmm... I don't know... ¿IQ?... they were great on 2 albums, all the rest is, or 80's pop, or not as clever as "The Wake" or "Subterranea". Their "prog" material is always like a bad attempt to re-use some of the great moments of those two albums.

IQ hang up?

Have you not heard their last album?

 I'm almost sure that cuncuna hasn't listened to Dark Matter. For me one of the best prog albums of the last 20 years. And even better than The Wake or Subterranea.

I have all their albums. Dark Matter was extremely redundant, every part of every song was completely evident and expected (I was even able to guess what was about to happen with the melodies in almost every part of it). They are repeating subterranea over and over...

 

OK , sorry.  Then it's just a matter of taste.

 

 

We could say that... after all, IQ is a very good band. But, ¿don't you miss the "unpredictible" factor that is present, let's say, in "Headlong" (my best favourite IQ song), the weird rythmic choices (I know, Dark matter starts with a weird tempo, but it is somewhat predictible, much to constant, if compared to "Outer limits"). Anyway, one of the elements on this band's imagination fade quickly. I hated "Ever" so much, (not as much as those POP albums), and The seventh house and Dark Matter are on my "listenable" list. And, if we are talking about taste, Idon't enjoy bands that simply chooses to repeat and reuse their most succesfull moment. I mean, as I said to another IQ lover many month ago, From the "Tales" album to "The Wake", you can see an evident evolution of the band. The same from that to "Subterranea". and then, ¡¡¡full stop!!!. So, no thanks. I'll stick with "Nuovo sub sole", a much more risky album. From IQ, I just expect another clone... sadly...



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¡Beware of the Bee!
   


Posted By: stechell
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 12:15

Originally posted by eugene eugene wrote:

Rush! They should have stopped it 20 years ago, for Christ sake!

RIGHT!!! I totally agree with u!!...but I would say they should have never started !!!



Posted By: MajesterX
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 12:16
Originally posted by Rashikal Rashikal wrote:

Dream Theater is pompous, unlistenable instrument masturbation. they have no new ideas, it is all a rehash of their influences, and they play it off in a boring and insincere way. horrible band.

does this mean you should severly insult and bash them every time you get a chance? I think not, it's just music you know.
 


Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 12:28

Originally posted by MajesterX MajesterX wrote:

Originally posted by Rashikal Rashikal wrote:

Dream Theater is pompous, unlistenable instrument masturbation. they have no new ideas, it is all a rehash of their influences, and they play it off in a boring and insincere way. horrible band.

does this mean you should severly insult and bash them every time you get a chance? I think not, it's just music you know.
 

Well, it is not a personal comment about them as humans... it is about just the music, as you say... now, that "masturbation" comment, I don't get... ¿how exactly do you get an "instrument masturbation?"... I have an Ukelele; ¿can I do it with that?...



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¡Beware of the Bee!
   


Posted By: Progger
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 12:30
I'm hopeing The Flowerkings have at least one great album left in them but I'm not too optimistic!!!


Posted By: Meddler
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 13:10
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

The Mars Volta: You've done enough damage already! Please move on!


What?!

2 albums is hardly enough damage.



Posted By: eugene
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 13:54
Originally posted by Meddler Meddler wrote:

Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

The Mars Volta: You've done enough damage already! Please move on!


What?!

2 albums is hardly enough damage.

Yeah, quite...and bearing in mind that their last album is better than the previous one, I'd say they are very much welcome to continue to gladden our ears with their music....

...and what "enough damage" they've caused to stonebeard - that's beyond me....



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carefulwiththataxe


Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 14:01
Originally posted by eugene eugene wrote:

Originally posted by Meddler Meddler wrote:

Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

The Mars Volta: You've done enough damage already! Please move on!


What?!

2 albums is hardly enough damage.

Yeah, quite...and bearing in mind that their last album is better than the previous one, I'd say they are very much welcome to continue to gladden our ears with their music....

...and what "enough damage" they've caused to stonebeard - that's beyond me....

I liked De-Loused a bit, but Frances the Mute is probably the worst piece of unlistenable musical randomness I've ever heard in my life.

This is my opinion. I don't want to appear to be a troll like one person in perticular in this thread...



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Posted By: CaincelaOreinim
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 15:01
For the uninitiated, Crimson have 'hung it up' practically every evolution of the band; one might say after every album.  As of now they're in hiatus and will make their return in '07 as no doubt another re-vamped edition. 

Those who are so zealous as to cling like leeches to the past are bound to be disappointed.  How does one expect to grow if you're stuck in a certain time period consistantly?  Your tastes are certainly adventurous and varied, I must say...  Fripp for the most part, just judging by his diaries (after all who truly knows the guy), has no intentions of reliving the past and honestly, I feel, good for him.

I, in relation to the overriding topic, can't really think of a band I'd like to see give it up.  Sure, I'd like to see some bands I've enjoyed return with better albums (Rush, Dream Theater) but I certainly don't want people to quit making music...certainly an insulting request...

Maybe that's how the intial topic should have begun, not who we'd like to see quit (because really, are you that idle to waste your time writing about bands you don't like? ingenuously the answer appears to be yes) but who we'd like to see improve/can do better?

My Runner Ups:  Mars Volta, Tool, Rush, King Crimson, Gordian Knot, Dream Theater, Flower Kings (after Paradox I'm a bit worried), and Pain Of Salvation come to mind.


Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 17:06
Originally posted by Meddler Meddler wrote:

Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

The Mars Volta: You've done enough damage already! Please move on!


What?!

2 albums is hardly enough damage.

Britney Spears should DIE !!!... The Mars Volta is a band with a savage nature; perhaps a bit much to loud, but they are a weird band, and that's enough for me... and I love both albums, they are so extrange and idiosincratic... that's always a nice thing to be.



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¡Beware of the Bee!
   


Posted By: Dr Know
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 17:08

Dream Theater are still young men!!

That is absurd!!



Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 17:09

Originally posted by CaincelaOreinim CaincelaOreinim wrote:

For the uninitiated, Crimson have 'hung it up' practically every evolution of the band; one might say after every album.  As of now they're in hiatus and will make their return in '07 as no doubt another re-vamped edition. 

Those who are so zealous as to cling like leeches to the past are bound to be disappointed.  How does one expect to grow if you're stuck in a certain time period consistantly?  Your tastes are certainly adventurous and varied, I must say...  Fripp for the most part, just judging by his diaries (after all who truly knows the guy), has no intentions of reliving the past and honestly, I feel, good for him.

I, in relation to the overriding topic, can't really think of a band I'd like to see give it up.  Sure, I'd like to see some bands I've enjoyed return with better albums (Rush, Dream Theater) but I certainly don't want people to quit making music...certainly an insulting request...

Maybe that's how the intial topic should have begun, not who we'd like to see quit (because really, are you that idle to waste your time writing about bands you don't like? ingenuously the answer appears to be yes) but who we'd like to see improve/can do better?

My Runner Ups:  Mars Volta, Tool, Rush, King Crimson, Gordian Knot, Dream Theater, Flower Kings (after Paradox I'm a bit worried), and Pain Of Salvation come to mind.

Exactly. IQ are wonderfull musicians... ¿why aren't they creating something beyond their actual static point? They should visit The Mars volta and catch some of that polyrithmic weirdness... leave us just one more delicated gift...



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¡Beware of the Bee!
   


Posted By: Petary791
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 20:36
ROLLING STONES.

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Posted By: Cygnus X-2
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 22:36
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

King Crimson: Sart writing symphonic music again (rehash the glory days of the 70s???)

You know that will never happen again, right? I think that the past two albums were great, and I can't wait till they start recording next September.



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Posted By: hamham
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 01:50
Originally posted by HeirToRuin HeirToRuin wrote:

Yes, they did...Octavarium...

All but the title track were a bunch of unimaginative common ideas getting rehashed and all sounding like really good songs that other bands would be better suited to play.  It included as close of a ripoff to the band Muse as is possible to do without being Muse.  Other heavily borrowed acts include Megadeth on track 1, Linkin Park on track 3, Coldplay on track 4, Muse somewhat on track 5 as well as 6, and practically every major prog band of the 70s and Spock's Beard in the title track (which really was a cool song...the only really strong thing to come out of the album...and that's saying alot because the first 12 minutes seem to go on forever).


presentation aside, i do hope you at least realize that the 'mimicing' other group's sound was their intention, lol


Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 10:33

I just wanted you to know how sad is to create such a fine joke as the one referred to someone who, earlier on this thread, said that Dreamtheater was nothing but musical instrument's masturbation, to whom I quoted, to then ask if musical instrument's masturbation was something possible to achieve with an Ukelele, being myself an owner of such a small and somewhat ridiculous instrument, etc... tough auddience...



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¡Beware of the Bee!
   


Posted By: W.Chuck
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 10:47
Originally posted by hamham hamham wrote:


Originally posted by HeirToRuin HeirToRuin wrote:

Yes, they did...Octavarium...

All but the title track were a bunch of unimaginative common ideas
getting rehashed and all sounding like really good songs that other
bands would be better suited to play.  It included as close of a
ripoff to the band Muse as is possible to do without being Muse. 
Other heavily borrowed acts include Megadeth on track 1, Linkin Park on
track 3, Coldplay on track 4, Muse somewhat on track 5 as well as 6,
and practically every major prog band of the 70s and Spock's Beard in
the title track (which really was a cool song...the only really strong
thing to come out of the album...and that's saying alot because the
first 12 minutes seem to go on forever).
presentation aside, i do hope you at least realize that the 'mimicing' other group's sound was their intention, lol


oh really, so you think that you can "steel" every music
as long as it's your intention to sound like them?
That is by far not a reason to justify it.

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Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 10:58

Originally posted by W.Chuck W.Chuck wrote:

Originally posted by hamham hamham wrote:


Originally posted by HeirToRuin HeirToRuin wrote:

Yes, they did...Octavarium...

All but the title track were a bunch of unimaginative common ideas
getting rehashed and all sounding like really good songs that other
bands would be better suited to play.  It included as close of a
ripoff to the band Muse as is possible to do without being Muse. 
Other heavily borrowed acts include Megadeth on track 1, Linkin Park on
track 3, Coldplay on track 4, Muse somewhat on track 5 as well as 6,
and practically every major prog band of the 70s and Spock's Beard in
the title track (which really was a cool song...the only really strong
thing to come out of the album...and that's saying alot because the
first 12 minutes seem to go on forever).
presentation aside, i do hope you at least realize that the 'mimicing' other group's sound was their intention, lol


oh really, so you think that you can "steel" every music
as long as it's your intention to sound like them?
That is by far not a reason to justify it.

Another point... ¿should bands justify themselves? ¿or their creations?. I often try to at least sense a trace of poetic construction beneath the notes, the polyrythm, the music anoxia (?), the paranoia and the artistic struggle... the pain, etc...



-------------
¡Beware of the Bee!
   


Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 11:01
Originally posted by Dr Know Dr Know wrote:

Dream Theater are still young men!!

That is absurd!!

It is absurd for Dreamtheater members to still be young men?, or were you looking by the window while writting, and, at the exact moment when your first sentence was written, you saw a man getting married with a Tree, both disguised as puding?



-------------
¡Beware of the Bee!
   


Posted By: Dr Know
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 12:23

^^^^

What the hell are you talking about?



Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 13:18

Why should any band that still enjoys what they are doing "hang it up"?

I used to have a theory that when an artist starts playing songs about how horrible it is to be in the business, that maybe it was time to retire.  But then we would have missed all those Pink Floyd albums.



-------------
Trust me. I know what I'm doing.


Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 13:25
Originally posted by Dr Know Dr Know wrote:

^^^^

What the hell are you talking about?

It's a joke. I'll explain. It is supposed to divide your post in two. The first part is the answer to that Dreamtheater comment. The second part is supposed to be soemthing you wrote because in that exact moment, on your window, something strange whas taking place (the unatural wedding between a human being and a tree, both in disguises)...



-------------
¡Beware of the Bee!
   


Posted By: Zweck
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 14:15
Originally posted by cuncuna cuncuna wrote:

I just wanted you to know how sad is to create such a fine joke as the one referred to someone who, earlier on this thread, said that Dreamtheater was nothing but musical instrument's masturbation, to whom I quoted, to then ask if musical instrument's masturbation was something possible to achieve with an Ukelele, being myself an owner of such a small and somewhat ridiculous instrument, etc... tough auddience...

Instrument masturbation is playing really fast, but without anything really interesting happening, JUST LIKE REAL MASTURBATION!

Let's imagine stud-like guitaris X, he's playin' a'real fast up and a'down the neck of his guitar, if he persists it looks rather like he's giving the guitar a handjob. Offcourse you can do it on the ukulele! I do it on my balalaika all the time!



Posted By: Dr Know
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 14:30
Oh sorry. I see it now cuncuna, if you divide the two sentencesLOLLOLLOL


Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 15:40
Originally posted by Cygnus X-2 Cygnus X-2 wrote:

Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

King Crimson: Sart writing symphonic music again (rehash the glory days of the 70s???)

You know that will never happen again, right? I think that the past two albums were great, and I can't wait till they start recording next September.

Yeah, I know.  TPTB was good, but it's just not like the old symphonic days.



-------------
http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!


Posted By: aprusso
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 15:44

Yes. better to finish while you're still good. Rush can go for other 10 years.



Posted By: chessman
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 16:21
It would be unfair of me to pick on bands I am not keen on, as it would be too easy to select one of them, hence, the likes of King Crimson, Dream Theatre etc will not be mentioned! Of the bands I like, I agree wholeheartedly that Yes should pack in. Seems to me their egos are growing at the same rate that their talent is diminishing. Anderson is practically reduced to a cabaret singer now, Howe is well past his sell by date, and Wakeman (if you still consider him a part of Yes,) seems happy as a TV entertainer. Only Squire and the inoffensive White are in a position to continue really. And no, I am not Yes-bashing, they were, at their peak, one of my top 5 bands. However, since their last 'classic' album, which for me was Going For The One, they have done little to enamour me to them, with only Keystudio coming close. The rest is forgettable. Time to pack in, lads.


Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 16:27
Simple.

The bands I like should continue to make music.
The bands I dislike should hang it up.




Posted By: eugene
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 16:39

Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

Simple.

The bands I like should continue to make music.
The bands I dislike should hang it up.


I'm afraid, not that simple, as many bands that I like after certain period of time run out of ideas and started to produce complete rubbish. That's what this thread is about.  



-------------
carefulwiththataxe


Posted By: The Wizard
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 17:02

The Rolling Stones. They were more embarresment than entertainment at the halftime show.

 



-------------


Posted By: hamham
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 17:39
Originally posted by W.Chuck W.Chuck wrote:

Originally posted by hamham hamham wrote:

presentation aside, i do hope you at least realize that the 'mimicing' other group's sound was their intention, lol


oh really, so you think that you can "steel" every music
as long as it's your intention to sound like them?
That is by far not a reason to justify it.

a band's style of music is not copywritten or anything, so how it is stealing? D:

the album octavarium was based around how music cycles and repeats itself, and the album did so itself through several songs, what is there not to understand here


Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 19:54
You know who should hang it up? Madona...ok, yes we all danced to Hung up...but who isn´t sick of her? I mean...ok, if you want to continuo making music, well...suit yourself...but stop trying to be sexy...the woman is almoust 50, it´s time to stop!!!

ah, and no prog should hang it up...


-------------
"You want me to play what, Robert?"


Posted By: Fragile
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 19:55
Originally posted by The Miracle The Miracle wrote:

Originally posted by Dr Know Dr Know wrote:

Deep Purple

They are still making great albums! I love Bananas and ROTD

Raptures is a fine album Purple are sounding very good



Posted By: Fragile
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 20:02

Originally posted by chessman chessman wrote:

It would be unfair of me to pick on bands I am not keen on, as it would be too easy to select one of them, hence, the likes of King Crimson, Dream Theatre etc will not be mentioned! Of the bands I like, I agree wholeheartedly that Yes should pack in. Seems to me their egos are growing at the same rate that their talent is diminishing. Anderson is practically reduced to a cabaret singer now, Howe is well past his sell by date, and Wakeman (if you still consider him a part of Yes,) seems happy as a TV entertainer. Only Squire and the inoffensive White are in a position to continue really. And no, I am not Yes-bashing, they were, at their peak, one of my top 5 bands. However, since their last 'classic' album, which for me was Going For The One, they have done little to enamour me to them, with only Keystudio coming close. The rest is forgettable. Time to pack in, lads.

Have you heard Magnification almost a great yes album?????????????? your other alludements border on someone who has an axe to grind. And yet you claim to love them?? Seems more ambivelous to me.Have you seen them live recently they are easily the best live band on the planet. And your comment on Jon Anderson is pathetic.Still sings as he did and still great.You need to get  a Yes reality check



Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 21:40
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

The Mars Volta: You've done enough damage already! Please move on!



n00b!


TMV are the most exciting band out there now, and they pwn any individual neo prog band. IMO, of course
 

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http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm


Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 21:45
Here's my list(sorry all non prog):

  • Green day
  • U2
  • Rolling Stones(of course)
  • Metallica


-------------
http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm


Posted By: stan the man
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 21:50
^dont forget bon jovi

-------------
true as a lobster in a pteredaktyl's underpants.




Posted By: Arnold Layne
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 21:54
Deffianatly Not King Crimson - There later albums (thrak, the power to belive) are among my top KC albums

-------------
HELP!


Posted By: Guillermo
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 21:55
Originally posted by The Wizard The Wizard wrote:

The Rolling Stones. They were more embarresment than entertainment at the halftime show.

 

I have to recognize that Jagger, at more than 60 years of age, has an amazing energy on stage, like he was in his 30s. In comparison to Richards, Wats and Wood... he looks like one of their youngest brothers!

About Madonna: I never liked her music...so...I can live without her!

About King Crimson: I never liked this band with Adrian Belew. Their best years, IMO, were 1969-74.

About YES: I still have not listened to their latest album, "Magnification". I only listened to some songs of this album when I saw them in concert in late 2002. I liked "In the Presence of". One thing that is somewhat boring with them in concert is hearing them playing again songs like "Roundabout". I can live without this song. Why they don`t play songs that they didn`t play for a long time, like "To Be Over", "Machine Messiah", or songs that they never have played in concert, like "The Prophet", "Survival", Harold Land", etc.?



-------------
Avatar: Photo of Solar Eclipse, Mexico City, July 1991. A great experience to see. Maybe once in a lifetime.


Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 22:07
Originally posted by stan the man stan the man wrote:

^dont forget bon jovi


Yeah.
 

-------------
http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm


Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 22:13
Originally posted by eugene eugene wrote:

Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

Simple.

The bands I like should continue to make music.
The bands I dislike should hang it up.


I'm afraid, not that simple, as many bands that I like after certain period of time run out of ideas and started to produce complete rubbish. That's what this thread is about.  



It was a joke.

However, parts of this thread devolved into "<band> should hang it up!  they haven't done anything good since <year>!"  "no way, <last cd> was brilliant!  what are you talking about!"

There are a lot of bands I agree that should have stopped long ago, but that doesn't mean they don't have fans of their newest stuff.

Sorry, maybe I'm just getting cranky with all the Rush/DT bashing. 


Posted By: FragileDT
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 23:02
Originally posted by Fragile Fragile wrote:

Originally posted by chessman chessman wrote:

It would be unfair of me to pick
on bands I am not keen on, as it would be too easy to select one of them,
hence, the likes of King Crimson, Dream Theatre etc will not be
mentioned! Of the bands I like, I agree wholeheartedly that Yes should
pack in. Seems to me their egos are growing at the same rate that their
talent is diminishing. Anderson is practically reduced to a cabaret singer
now, Howe is well past his sell by date, and Wakeman (if you still consider
him a part of Yes,) seems happy as a TV entertainer. Only Squire and the
inoffensive White are in a position to continue really. And no, I am not
Yes-bashing, they were, at their peak, one of my top 5 bands. However,
since their last 'classic' album, which for me was Going For The One, they
have done little to enamour me to them, with only Keystudio coming
close. The rest is forgettable. Time to pack in, lads.


Have you heard Magnification almost a great yes album??????????????
your other alludements border on someone who has an axe to grind. And
yet you claim to love them?? Seems more ambivelous to me.Have you
seen them live recently they are easily the best live band on the
planet. And your comment on Jon Anderson is pathetic.Still sings as he
did and still great.You need to get  a Yes reality check



Your absolutely right. Magnification was a great and very mature album
for Yes. With the exception of some Jon Anderson pop songs (which are
good pop songs) the album is great and very uplifting. I find it to be the
best Yes album since Drama (with ease.)

-------------
One likes to believe
In the freedom of music
But glittering prizes
And endless Compromises
Shatter the illusion
Of integrity


Posted By: SirPsycho388
Date Posted: March 28 2006 at 00:09

First of all, Dream Theater's last release Octavarium was absolutely great and though by no means close to their best, it definately was an excellent album. I hope they continue for another 10 years!

And why so much against RUSH??? Vapor Trails was a pleasant return to an earlier sound and they do sound like they could make one more decent album before they pack up and call it quits.

YES on the other hand seems to be ready to wave farewell. Though it's terrible, I think they'll probably "milk it" for one more Farewell Tour... they'll make a sh&*#t load of money and be able to retire happily.



-------------
Strangers passing in the street by chance two separate glances meet and I am you and what I see is me. And do I take you by the hand and lead you through the land and help me understand the best I can


Posted By: stan the man
Date Posted: March 28 2006 at 00:16

Originally posted by The Miracle The Miracle wrote:

Originally posted by stan the man stan the man wrote:

^dont forget bon jovi


Yeah.
 

a lot of people just listen to them cause bon jovi is "hawt" 



-------------
true as a lobster in a pteredaktyl's underpants.




Posted By: Paulieg
Date Posted: March 28 2006 at 00:42
Spocks Beard.  I don't see what people see in this band and without Neil Morse they are even worse, not that he was that great!!!  Let the bashing begin.


Posted By: Rorro
Date Posted: March 28 2006 at 01:24
Originally posted by cuncuna cuncuna wrote:

Originally posted by Dr Know Dr Know wrote:

^^^^

What the hell are you talking about?

It's a joke. I'll explain. It is supposed to divide your post in two. The first part is the answer to that Dreamtheater comment. The second part is supposed to be soemthing you wrote because in that exact moment, on your window, something strange whas taking place (the unatural wedding between a human being and a tree, both in disguises)...

Si vas a tener que explicar cada chiste te vas a volver loco, se ve que la gente que no es de sudamerica no entiende chistes. ¿ Como hacen cuando estan aburridos?, supongo que piensan como hacer instrument masturbations.

 



Posted By: Rorro
Date Posted: March 28 2006 at 01:27

Originally posted by Paulieg Paulieg wrote:

Spocks Beard.  I don't see what people see in this band and without Neil Morse they are even worse, not that he was that great!!!  Let the bashing begin.
IMO,

Spock's Beard with Neal Morse was a great band, but i didn't listened to them without neal morse. But give them time, i'm sure they have many more to give.

 



Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: March 28 2006 at 01:28
Originally posted by The Wizard The Wizard wrote:

The Rolling Stones. They were more embarresment than entertainment at the halftime show.

 

Not a band, only a member, and should not totally hang up, but Steve Walsh should stop singing. it's painful to listen him.

He should play keyboards, find a new vocalist and maybe sing one or two very easy tracks, maybe Dust in the Wind, but the band should take the tone very low.

Iván



-------------
            


Posted By: Witchwoodhermit
Date Posted: March 28 2006 at 01:48
Anybody under the term Hip-Hop.

-------------
Here I'm shadowed by a dragon fig tree's fan
ringed by ants and musing over man.


Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: March 28 2006 at 02:04
Originally posted by Fragile Fragile wrote:

Originally posted by chessman chessman wrote:

It would be unfair of me to pick on bands I am not keen on, as it would be too easy to select one of them, hence, the likes of King Crimson, Dream Theatre etc will not be mentioned! Of the bands I like, I agree wholeheartedly that Yes should pack in. Seems to me their egos are growing at the same rate that their talent is diminishing. Anderson is practically reduced to a cabaret singer now, Howe is well past his sell by date, and Wakeman (if you still consider him a part of Yes,) seems happy as a TV entertainer. Only Squire and the inoffensive White are in a position to continue really. And no, I am not Yes-bashing, they were, at their peak, one of my top 5 bands. However, since their last 'classic' album, which for me was Going For The One, they have done little to enamour me to them, with only Keystudio coming close. The rest is forgettable. Time to pack in, lads.

Have you heard Magnification almost a great yes album?????????????? your other alludements border on someone who has an axe to grind. And yet you claim to love them?? Seems more ambivelous to me.Have you seen them live recently they are easily the best live band on the planet. And your comment on Jon Anderson is pathetic.Still sings as he did and still great.You need to get  a Yes reality check

Yes is still an excellennt live band. Their 2003 gig was magnificient!

               Jon is a cabaret singer?

               They haven't made a new studio album since Magnification, but Peter Gabriel and Tool

               also don't release new albums very frequently(just to pick two).



Posted By: int_2375
Date Posted: March 28 2006 at 02:05

Originally posted by Rashikal Rashikal wrote:

Dream Theater is pompous, unlistenable instrument masturbation. they have no new ideas, it is all a rehash of their influences, and they play it off in a boring and insincere way. horrible band.

I agree... nothing against DT fans, my psych. teacher who I respect alot is one.  The music lacks style, substance, and structure, imo.

BTW, the Rolling Stones really, really need to hang it up.  Keith Richards has said he will play music in a wheel chair... weeee, now that'll be a performance!



Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: March 28 2006 at 02:12

The Rolling Stones should really hang it up.

But this is the case with them since 25-30 years.



Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: March 28 2006 at 02:24

The Stoines are a joke today.

Iván



-------------
            


Posted By: Joolz
Date Posted: March 28 2006 at 05:59
Originally posted by ivan_2068 ivan_2068 wrote:

The Stoines are a joke today.

Iván



Not a very funny one though. They stopped creating around 35 years ago.

People here who are Yes-bashing obviously aren't listening - 15 years ago I too gave up on them, but I have since seen the error of my ways. Magnification is indeed Magnificent and is far far better than we have any right to expect.
 


Posted By: shanocles
Date Posted: March 28 2006 at 06:31

Originally posted by Pafnutij Pafnutij wrote:

Dream Theater should've stopped after "Six Degrees".

 

i had the thought that DT should all go away some place together like for the recording of 'Scenes' (Bearcreek studios) and this may make them all gel a bit more. but then i heard octavarium one day like i'd never heard it before and thought maybe i was being a bit hard on them. all the other songs don't really grab my attention as much as the finale ...

p.s. nice chuck norris statement.



-------------
if left is wrong i don't wanna be right...


Posted By: shanocles
Date Posted: March 28 2006 at 06:33
Originally posted by Rorro Rorro wrote:

Originally posted by Paulieg Paulieg wrote:

Spocks Beard.  I don't see what people see in this band and without Neil Morse they are even worse, not that he was that great!!!  Let the bashing begin.
IMO,

Spock's Beard with Neal Morse was a great band, but i didn't listened to them without neal morse. But give them time, i'm sure they have many more to give.

 

 

well, everyone is entitled to an opinion i guess ... even if it's a misguided one!

NEAL ROCKS! its so plain to the rest of us.



-------------
if left is wrong i don't wanna be right...


Posted By: Dalezilla
Date Posted: March 28 2006 at 09:01
Originally posted by shanocles shanocles wrote:

Originally posted by Rorro Rorro wrote:


Originally posted by Paulieg Paulieg wrote:

Spocks Beard.  I don't see what people see in this band and without Neil Morse they are even worse, not that he was that great!!!  Let the bashing begin.
IMO,


Spock's Beard with Neal Morse was a great band, but i didn't listened to them without neal morse. But give them time, i'm sure they have many more to give.


 



 


well, everyone is entitled to an opinion i guess ... even if it's a misguided one!


NEAL ROCKS! its so plain to the rest of us.





Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: March 28 2006 at 10:54
Originally posted by Norbert Norbert wrote:

The Rolling Stones should really hang it up.

But this is the case with them since 25-30 years.

The irritating thing about the Stones is that they could still be good if they followed the example of the old blues musicians they admire so much. BB King is still touring at 80, and John Lee Hooker was still playing at about the same age, but they don't pretend to be anything other than old men. Seeing Mick Jagger prance around like a teenager is what's really sad - his voice isn't in bad shape and the rest of the band can still sound good on their night. But they should act their age!



-------------
'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'

Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom




Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: March 28 2006 at 11:13
Originally posted by Rorro Rorro wrote:

Originally posted by cuncuna cuncuna wrote:

Originally posted by Dr Know Dr Know wrote:

^^^^

What the hell are you talking about?

It's a joke. I'll explain. It is supposed to divide your post in two. The first part is the answer to that Dreamtheater comment. The second part is supposed to be soemthing you wrote because in that exact moment, on your window, something strange whas taking place (the unatural wedding between a human being and a tree, both in disguises)...

Si vas a tener que explicar cada chiste te vas a volver loco, se ve que la gente que no es de sudamerica no entiende chistes. ¿ Como hacen cuando estan aburridos?, supongo que piensan como hacer instrument masturbations.

 

En algo tienes razón; al parecer, para el tema de los chistes, acá son medio duros, pero hay que tener en cuenta que todos acá usamos nuestra propia versión del Inglés, lo cual puede no funcionar. Además, finalmente sí entendió el chiste. Me mandó un mesaje diciendo que en realidad, lo que había pasado es que leyó el chiste muy rápido y no captó la idea en principio. Después le cayó la teja...



-------------
¡Beware of the Bee!
   


Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: March 30 2006 at 06:48
Originally posted by Syzygy Syzygy wrote:

Originally posted by Norbert Norbert wrote:

The Rolling Stones should really hang it up.

But this is the case with them since 25-30 years.

The irritating thing about the Stones is that they could still be good if they followed the example of the old blues musicians they admire so much. BB King is still touring at 80, and John Lee Hooker was still playing at about the same age, but they don't pretend to be anything other than old men. Seeing Mick Jagger prance around like a teenager is what's really sad - his voice isn't in bad shape and the rest of the band can still sound good on their night. But they should act their age!

Yes, I consider them laughable today for the same reason! They act(especially Mick Jagger), like they were in their early 20-s.


Posted By: ClemofNazareth
Date Posted: March 31 2006 at 22:11

How about these guys?! 



-------------
"Peace is the only battle worth waging."

Albert Camus


Posted By: Guillermo
Date Posted: April 01 2006 at 11:04
Well..."ridiculous", IMO,  the image of Robert Smith of The Cure.  That image was good for him when he was 20-25 years old...but now... at forty-something or fifty-something ... 

-------------
Avatar: Photo of Solar Eclipse, Mexico City, July 1991. A great experience to see. Maybe once in a lifetime.


Posted By: Entity79
Date Posted: April 01 2006 at 21:17
Originally posted by White Feather White Feather wrote:

Vapor Trails was awesome ?  I wanted to like it but I just couldn`t get past the bad engineering


It can be saved! Just go here and follow directions, then burn yourself a copy of the finished product.

http://home.earthlink.net/~cmilmerstadt/audio/


Posted By: The Ryan
Date Posted: April 01 2006 at 21:59
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

The Mars Volta: You've done enough damage already! Please move on!

Man... you suck....

That is quite possibly the craziest statement I have ever heard in all my life.

Do you like Jazz Fusion and hate the Mars Volta drummer? If so, that would make you an idiot.

Do you like concept albums but do not like the Mars Volta's concepts from album to album? If so, that would make you even more of an idiot.

Excellent concepts, and a good/bombastic drummer.



Posted By: bigjoeagago
Date Posted: April 02 2006 at 09:52
[QUOTE=ClemofNazareth]

How about these guys?! 


I Is that ACCEPT ?



Posted By: MajesterX
Date Posted: April 02 2006 at 10:37
So, doesn't anyone realize all the polls here are the same. "least boring Album" is almost the same as "the best album" which is almost the same as "your favorite album. And this thread is just screaming "Hey! lets all come up with bands we don't like and bash them and then go defend the bands we like and get into a big argument on which bands are going downhill!" I'm done with these negative threads and this forum! All of it is bashing and arguing about which band is better, what would have happened if this person left/ stayed, negative threads, which band is prog and is not. This is why I like the main site much more, yet there is still bickering on the forums about what should or shouldn't br there! We really have some optimistic and positive people here.



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