Why are reviews weighted now
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22286
Printed Date: July 18 2025 at 14:41
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Topic: Why are reviews weighted now
Posted By: yargh
Subject: Why are reviews weighted now
Date Posted: April 24 2006 at 17:23
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There pretty much is no defensible reason for this. Not writing reviews allows a person the time to express an opinion about a wider range of albums. I guess we can just chalk this up as yet another pompous, asinine administrative decision by the folks running this place (into the ground).
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Replies:
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: April 24 2006 at 17:32
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if you think so ...
BTW: You can come to my website, no review needed, no weighting! But I think it's just a different approach, not necessarily a better one.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 24 2006 at 17:35
You are free to leave of course. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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yargh wrote:Posted By: yargh
Date Posted: April 24 2006 at 17:52
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"You are free to leave of course."
Instead of discouraging people, you might want to actually defend this asnine decision. You can't? Didn't think so.
The people who run this place sure never pass up a chance to wallow in elitist, self-congratualory filth. As I previously stated: rating albums and not reviewing them allows a person to review more albums early on, and establishes an individual baseline for the (incredibly limited) 5-star system that this place adheres to (changes that would actually be a benefit to the site appear to not to register. Livin' must remain easy, I guess). Furthermore, the marginal utility of a written review diminishes after a certain amount of them are posted There probably doesn't need to be more than 10 well-thought reviews of any album; 20 at the absolute most. Nobody except the writer is going to read reviews farther down than this. But should a person's opinion of an album be diminished because he happened to join the party late?
Then, there's people like myself who write reviews for other sites and therefore can't post them here. The premise of some people's opinions mattering more than others -- based on the criteria being used here -- is simply not defensible, because there is no correlation between willingness to write a review on this site and the amount of knowledge a person has of the music OR the number of reviews the person may have written overall, but not for this site.
The policy also discriminates against non-English speakers and -- trust me -- NOBODY wants a policy that encourages more of these horribly-written disgraces to the language that seem to be regularly turned out by our non-English speaking friends, in an attempt for their ratings to count.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: April 24 2006 at 18:13
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"Instead of discouraging people, you might want to actually defend this asnine decision"
Why should we? It has all been said and talked about a thousand times. In the other thread you yourself described how easily the ratings can be manipulated by ratings without reviews.
I rest my case. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: yargh
Date Posted: April 24 2006 at 18:16
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"Why should we? It has all been said and talked about a thousand times. In the other thread you yourself described how easily the ratings can be manipulated by ratings without reviews.
I rest my case."
Typical. Like a frightened mouse, you don't even make a single argument in defense of the idiocy. IT IS BECAUSE THERE IS NONE.
Powned!
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: April 24 2006 at 18:17
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lol ... see my post count? Among these thousands of posts there most be 100 that deal with ratings without reviews.
I'm too lazy to dig them up! ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 24 2006 at 18:19
And I just can't be bothered.......period! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: yargh
Date Posted: April 24 2006 at 18:24
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"And I just can't be bothered.......period."
Yes; I know -- you're too arrogant and stupid. Then please direct me to the threads where this was discussed.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: April 24 2006 at 18:26
why, just search for "rating". ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 24 2006 at 18:28
You are very perseptive...you charmer. I bet your a hit with the girls! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: horza
Date Posted: April 24 2006 at 18:33
This guy is beginning to annoy me  ------------- Originally posted by darkshade: Calling Mike Portnoy a bad drummer is like calling Stephen Hawking an idiot. |
Posted By: yargh
Date Posted: April 24 2006 at 18:38
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"This guy is beginning to annoy me" Beginning? I thought were already annoyed by me months ago!
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: April 25 2006 at 03:49
All. The sniping isn't really helping , Yargh is asking a reasonable question, although phrases like "The people who run this place sure never pass up a chance to wallow in elitist, self-congratualory filth" do little to further his cause or invite a rational response.
Yargh. There was a strong push to remove all ratings without reviews from the site. Many people, indeed the majority, felt that they corrupted the ratings as those who submitted them did not have to back them up with narrative.
The owners of the site (you know, the ones who "wallow in elitist, self-congratualory filth") were against the removal of ratings without reviews, essentially for the reasons you have given. It was therefore agreed to reward those who go to the trouble of writing reviews by giving their submissions extra weight.
Your own reasons for not submitting reviews are dubious. You are clearly literate (even if you do feel you cannot fully express yourself without swearing
). Surely the reviews you write for other sites are your own, and you can psot them elsewhere if you wish. Failing that, you can always write different reviews for different sites, the choice is yours.Your opinion on what I've said may of course be different, but please try to respond without resorting to insulting anyone.
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 25 2006 at 04:06
Due to the tone of his initial post EL, he doesn't deserve a reasoned argument. He is clearly abusive and I don't really care what he thinks. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: goose
Date Posted: April 25 2006 at 08:49
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Posted By: yargh
Date Posted: April 25 2006 at 08:51
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"Your own reasons for not submitting reviews are dubious. You are clearly literate (even if you do feel you cannot fully express yourself without swearing
). Surely the reviews you write for other sites are your own, and you can psot them elsewhere if you wish. Failing that, you can always write different reviews for different sites, the choice is yours."Take it up with my agent. The copyrights in my reviews do not belong to me, and they cannot be posted here. As for "backing up" ratings without reviews, it's unnecessary BS. A star rating of an album is a totally subjective call and the reasons for it are irrelevant. Reviews and ratings are mutually exclusive entities.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: April 25 2006 at 10:07
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A rating that comes with an elaborate review is less likely abuse than one without a review. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: April 26 2006 at 03:18
So write some new reviews as Easy suggests instead of avoiding the questions and referring to your agent. If the copyrights in your reviews don't belong to you, you've got the wrong agent. Ratings without reviews are worthless IMO, and just a way to manipulate the charts. The ratings on this site are not simple star ratings - there is a chart to explain what they mean, and they are very specific - not subjective at all. This site is not simply about rating the music - there are other (lesser) sites for that; It's about discussing the music and presenting valuable opinions that can lead to a better understanding of Prog music as a whole. If everyone understood Prog, then there wouldn't be so many conflicting discussions about its nature.  ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 28 2006 at 03:05
Hear Hear
 A masterpiece of a progressive answer  ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: April 28 2006 at 04:17
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The problem is that everyone understands prog a little bit differently, and thus the star ratings are still a very subjective thing, even if the guidelines try to make it more objective.
One person's progressive masterpiece can seem to be not progressive at all to another person. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 28 2006 at 07:45
Problem is that for some people , every Cd they buy or own is a masterpiece.
 ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: April 28 2006 at 07:54
True. I admit that a high percentage of my own collection would receive 5 star ratings from me if I had to rate them all. That's of course because I tend to sell albums which I don't like (and that includes average albums which are "technically" 3 star albums). I'm sure that in most album collection the percentage of 4/5 star albums will be much higher than in a complete albums list like the progarchives. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: April 28 2006 at 13:07
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Up to me,this archives necesitates reviewing...it's the best way to say
your opinion...putting myself in the skin of a "reader",what can I
really see in a rating from 1 to 5? what is the album
about?...explanations should be always...
------------- 
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Posted By: freebird
Date Posted: April 29 2006 at 13:23
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: April 29 2006 at 17:10
Thanks Freebird
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 02 2006 at 17:36
I don't think that's the problem - I think that's the strength of this system. Any ratings system will be subjective - that's part of the point. When I read a review, I can see how the reviewer has interpreted our rating system, and that makes me adjust how I perceive his opinions on the music. If it's clear the reviewer thinks it's a 1-5 scale, then chances are I won't read all of the review, as there will be no attempt at objectivity. If it's clear the reviewer understands what we are trying to get at, then the review itself becomes far more interesting, and the music itself is more interesting as a result. Who cares if someone thinks an album pwnz teh rest - I want to know WHY.  ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 02 2006 at 17:48
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"Attempt at objectivity" ... let me quote Woody Allen: Objectivity is subjective".
I agree about the review text being more important than anything else, but I don't think that it makes sense to even try to make the ratings objective. That's why I impose no rules on my own website - anything goes. I might give some hints as to what might be a good rating strategy ... but in the end I only say "you have 15 steps ... apply them to the albums you know as you see fit".
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 04 2006 at 16:29
OK, that's fine for your website, Mike, but I find the 5 ratings here perfectly useable - and I am particularly not keen on an "anything goes" strategy, as it leads to people raving about their favourite albums rather than considering why other Proggers might be interested in the music. It's THAT difference that makes ProgArchives what it is. And it's perfectly possible to be objective about music - if it has Mellotrons in it, then it has Mellotrons - no question about it.  ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 04 2006 at 16:45
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^ But you're assuming that all members are experts. That's not the case, even taking into account that many of them (us) are musicians. You simply cannot expect people to analyze music on that level. And even if we were all experts there would still be different opinions even about established albums like CttE.
No, I will pursue my "anything goes" approach on my website and see what happens.  But I will focus more on individual (per user) top lists and pages than on overall averages and top lists.------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 05 2006 at 03:18
No, I'm not assuming that everyone's an expert - I'm assuming that everyone has a brain and is capable of actually hearing the music they like for what it is - and writing about it using specific guidelines in order to make their reviews useful to fans of Progressive Rock. The guidelines we give on this site do not expect anyone to undertake graduate level analysis - I for one have never gone fully down that route, and it's rare that anyone goes further than UK GCSE level. Besides, this is Rock music we're talking about, not high-level art music. Most of it doesn't stand up to academic analysis. The closest I have gone to academic level is in my review of Shub-Niggurath, as I felt that an academic understanding of the compositional methods used could help lead to a greater understanding of what the band were trying to achieve. Plus I spotted those techniques immediately and it was fun to write about the way the band had used them. I hope I speak for the majority of Proggers when I say I find it very boring to see endless reviews stating "I really like this", or "This bit is really good, that bit is superb and the guitar solo is wonderful". What does that actually tell you about the music? While you can check out other bands that the reviewer likes and draw some narrow conclusions, I think that the reviews should stand on their own feet and say something - otherwise why not just go to Amazon or RateYourMusic instead? It bores me rigid when people waffle on about time signatures and widdly-woo solos, so I agree in that respect - analysis can be too detailled, and I also totally agree that so-called experts quite often don't seem to know what they're talking about - which is why I try very hard not to be one. I think that it's interesting to note where particular instruments are used - particularly in unusual ways, or where snippets of "classical" or jazz music are mixed in with the rock and how successful the juxtaposition is to the reviewer in creating a progressive effect - and you don't need to study music to write about those things - you just need to listen and think. It becomes easier with practice - and I think it has more value for Prog fans than "How much do you like it 1 - 10", which anyone can do on hundreds of other sites that cater for such things. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 05 2006 at 03:24
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On my website I separated the general "rating" and the progressiveness. It always annoyed me that in the archives your star rating is supposed to reflect your rating of the progressiveness of an album AND how much you like it. On my website I can simply be more specific. The separate progressiveness rating relieves me of the need to make a compromise. If I award an album with 15 points then it simply means that it is one of my absolute favorite albums, the additional progressiveness rating shows whether I also think that it's progressive or not.
It's always better to be a little more specific when entering data into a system - it can always be combined later. Doesn't work the other way round though: If you are very general when entering data, you cannot get more specific later on without having to enter the data again. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: jeremybender34
Date Posted: May 05 2006 at 03:38
| Not to butt in or anything and perhaps its too late, but even after the administrator gave yargh a nice well thought out repsonse his reply was still hostile and uncooperative. I admit I am new to the prog archives message boards but past experience shows the belligerents like this fellow get banned from the boards. Not that im suggesting since his last post was 10 days ago, but what exactly is the rationale behind this. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: May 05 2006 at 04:06
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I sort of agree with you, but this site normally bans only extreme cases of misconduct. Plus the Administrator "Easy Livin" is a very patient man. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: May 09 2006 at 18:44
I like the way ratings and reviews are weighted like this 
It makes a sense...
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