When is a review TOO Subjective ??
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Topic: When is a review TOO Subjective ??
Posted By: altaeria
Subject: When is a review TOO Subjective ??
Date Posted: May 14 2006 at 14:17
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.
I do understand that an album review is inherently Subjective by nature...
but I feel that there comes a point when a review can be "TOO subjective"
and, in turn, it actually loses its value as a helpful guide for others.
Anytime a review includes statements like:
"This was the first record I bought with my allowance"
...or...
"The singer couldn't hit the notes in concert"
...or...
"I can never get into this band -- so this album is no different"
...or...
"Joe Blow doesn't sound exactly the same way as original member Bob Slob"
...or...
"Everything So-and-so does is prog perfection"
... etc ...
I tend to discount the opinion of the reviewer because s/he isn't really evaluating the album for the material presented on it. Instead--the album is put in some irrelevant personal context.
Is CLOSE TO THE EDGE really worthy of the "Top Prog Album of All Time" status to people who didn't first hear it in the 70's? To any prog listener under the age of 35, is it even the band's best album?
Is DRAMA really a bad album because Trevor Horn couldn't sing ROUNDABOUT live?
If you know you absolutely can't stand ROGER WATERS, what good is it for you to "review" his album? You've already decided that you're not gonna like like it. How will that help us?
Maybe if you were to put it in some constructive comparative perspective... but you probably won't... So why bother, really?
If CALLING ALL STATIONS was released by some unknown band, would it still get completely killed?
How about if MARILLION or SPOCK'S BEARD released it?
Do ALL those TOOL albums reeealllly deserve 5 stars? C'mon, now... FIVE stars ?!!
Ideally...
We would all only review albums wrapped in nondescript packaging
and we would not factor-in the music's possible nostalgic connection.
However, of course, I do realize that THAT is impossible.
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Replies:
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: May 14 2006 at 14:39
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I reckon statements like that, as long as they are part of a considered review, are what differentiates our site from others.
It is the personal aspect of our reviews which characterises them, and makes it different from the emotionless professional recitals which can be read anywhere else.
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Posted By: Dirk
Date Posted: May 14 2006 at 14:52
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I tend to discount almost every 5 star review unless it's by a reviewer i know really well or a band i know pretty well. Problem with 5 star reviews is that you only hear what's good about an album but not the weaker points. I don't know too many albums that i find to be totally or even close to perfect. 5 star ratings i would give to 5-10 albums or so (which i have heard more than 50 times) and most of these 5 star ratings would be rounded up from 4.5. A good example is Luxade from La Maschera di cera, a good album with some wonderful moments but also some weaker points. I only learn about the good points of the band in the reviews up till now. |
Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 01:54
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the worst reviews seem to be of two types - the one that gives 5 stars and says "this is the best album i have ever heard" meaning the reviewer hasn't heard many albums at all, or the one that runs down a highly rated album, or any album for that matter, in a few lines saying "this s**t sucks!!". i'm guilty of that sort of thing myself and wish it could be removed! i don't think it is fair to review music you dislike, or if you are a fan of a particular band their personal politics shouldn't come into it unless it directly affects the music, and don't worry the most ardent fans will be the first to condemn a less-than-up-to-standard album from their favourite group. i would never dream of rating a VDGG or gentle giant album because i just don't like them and my opinion would be worthless, but an opinion on Deep Purple would be valid as i'm a fan, i've seen them live and have heard all their albums to date, though it seems everyone else has also! i guess a good review is how you would describe an album to a fellow fan of the group who hadn't heard it, or a potential buyer's guide, "is it like this" or "is it good compared to that" would be most useful. going into long descriptions about the meanings of the lyrics isn't helpful either as they are always wide open to a person's individual interpretation. -------------  Prog Archives Tour Van 
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but it was a knee-jerk reaction which should have been avoided. initial euphoria over anything including a new album (one way or the other) should be avoided till the "honeymoon" period is over. there were far too many 5 star ratings for the new Tool album far too soon, a classic case of "the king's new clothes" if i ever heard one, the thing was still warm from the presses. perhaps PA should give a six month "cooling off" period for new albums, or at least let their authorised expert reviewers do them first?Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 07:24
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Listening to music is a very personal thing, no two people will hear he same music the same way. To discount a review that reflects something personal to that reviewer is highly inconsiderat IMO, your just dismissing his opinion with no real reason. For instance, the first example you gave for a review start "This was the first record I bought with my allowance" is a perfectly good start IMO, and as long as the review is well written, concise and shows the good and bad points and reasons why you find this then I dont see any problem.
Reviews I dont like are the ones that are two short to give such details (those that are only 5 or 6 lines for instance) or those that portrey fals information. Beyond that, whats the problem if a lot of people find Tool, or DT or Yes albums to be 5 stars, its what they thought of the music that they have heard. You just have to look through the reviews and find the ones you do like that tally with your own views on an album, from their you will find out witch reviewers share your taste in music and you can just go by their reviews when decideing on a new album.
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Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 07:36
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I am kind of agreeing with Sleeper's comments. It is such a personal thing.
I don't mind people not liking the same music as me. (liking prog you get used to it!  )
The reviews that bother me, are the ones written by some guy who joins PA purely to post ONE review on an album that he has an extreme opinion of, and then leaves.....never to post again! That winds me up! And rhetorical questions in reviews also.if you have a question about an album stick it in the forum where it might at least get answered! Some of these questions are really showing the reviewer in a bad light tho, and not the album they are trying to put down! |
Posted By: Tristan Mulders
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 08:01
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I actually wrote a review for an Alan Parson album yesterday (not typed & submitted yet), which reflectes on holidays to French when I was a child... SO WHAT if it is personal??? If the reviewer writes a good review, thus within the guidelines of the website, what's the reason to complain?
------------- Interested in my reviews? You can find them http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=784 - HERE "...He will search until He's found a Way to take the Days..." |
Posted By: Chicapah
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 11:13
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I tend to review albums that I like over albums that I don't because, obviously, I'm much more familiar with the songs and I'm sure that applies to 99% of the reviews. For example, I don't like Drama by Yes. I've tried to listen to it over the years from time to time but I never like what I hear. So it's hard to write an intelligent, objective review of songs I've never gotten familiar with. Much easier to write one for "Fragile" and give it 5 stars because I know every tune by heart. Voila! The only way I can write a 1 star review is to suffer through a listening of the album in question (Like Genesis' "Mama" album) and then proceed to tear it apart. Not a fun way to spend my time. ------------- "Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 11:55
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I think reviews can't help being personal. Even those you read in newspapers or magazines, written by more or less professional people, are coloured by the reviewer's personal attitude to that album (or book, or film...), though it may not immediately seem so. Anyway, I endorse Easy Livin's opinion completely: the personal touch of our reviews is what makes them so special and so valuable.
Of course, there can be a downside to this: when, as others have said before me, somebody writes a review with the sole purpose of sl*gging off an album by a band he or she dislikes. I am no fan of Dream Theater, though I have some of their albums, but I would think twice before writing a review of, say, "Awake" in order to say what a boring album it is. What I could (and probably will) do is to write as honestly as I can about the album's strengths and weaknesses, and explain why it does not do anything for me. It would be next to impossible for me not to get personal in this case and refer to what (musically speaking) makes me tick.
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Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 19:06
Bingo!!! But yes, there are some reviews which are...so subjective that they are stupid. I remeber on guy used to give every album where Bruford played 5 stars, even the ones he had never heard...   ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Easy Livin wrote:Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 19:09
mmm I disagree with the first thing you said... For em if the reviewer is giving the album 5 stars it better be because he loves it, or becuase there are seriously no weak points! ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?"
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Posted By: Dirk
Date Posted: May 16 2006 at 12:26
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^Maybe i'm over critical here but i have listened to a lot of albums that got a lot of 5 star ratings where i had the impression that they were good albums but no masterpieces.Of course this is my personal feeling about those albums, i just believe that some of the reviewers and raters get a bit carried away by their enthousiasm sometimes, running into trouble when an even better album comes along(you can't give more than 5 stars). |
Posted By: int_2375
Date Posted: May 17 2006 at 03:11
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The truth is that people have a tendency to only review what they really like or really dislike. I mean honestly, if I hear an album and don't like it, I'm usually just not going to think about it again, not going to listen to it again, so I'm probably in no position to give it a negative review. However, if I really like the album, I will listen to it a lot, and thus have the knowledge to review it. So albums that you like get an unfair advantage.
Yes, I really believe Tool deserves all the 5 star reviews. I could say the same thing about Genesis, Dream Theater, or Jethro Tull, but obviously a lot of people like them so they must deserve it. I have reviewed 3 of the Tool albums with five star reviews, and have no regrets about it. If I honestly think they are the best albums I have ever heard why would I dock them a star? They appeal to the exact things I look for in music, just as I'm sure most albums have for most 5 star reviews. I hear them as nearly flawless masterpieces, and when I do feel that there is a flaw of some kind, such as the overabundance of segues on AEnima, I point it out.
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 17 2006 at 16:26
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I know I'm not alone here, but I prefer to remove my personal tastes as far as possible, and review in terms of whether or not an album really is a masterpiece of Prog.
Of course this is subjective, and can only be qualified with reasoning based on more subjectivity - although it's possible to keep it in a rational framework. But I prefer to read reviews that have a personal style and avoid gushing statements like "This is the best ever!!!". I also like reviews that focus on historical details, little unearthed nuggets about the band and most importantly, what about those Mellotrons, eh? I have frequently docked stars from albums I really like - I could hardly bring myself to award "Stationary Traveller" 3 stars, for example - but it's not a Masterpiece of Prog - it's hardly even Progressive. I think it's bloody brilliant, but that is only my taste. Likewise, I think that all 3 Muse albums are Masterpieces - but not of Prog Rock. I also cannot stand ELP, and it was quite painful for me to award one of their albums 4 stars (I forget which, as they're all forgettable to me) - but facing reality, it is the duty of every progger to own at least one or two ELP albums, which makes it essential. I like the scoring system here, and I use it when I look at reviews - you can always see who has been trying to "play the game" (and it is a kind of intellectual game), and who thinks they're on RateYourMusic.com. Pity we can't keep the latter out of the charts! ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 17 2006 at 16:54
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Can you really separate them - or does a 5 star rating automatically make you suspect "fanboyism"?
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Posted By: Tristan Mulders
Date Posted: May 17 2006 at 16:57
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I lately use a new system to create a rating for an album when reviewing one. I first copy the tracklist and take a look at each and every single song and give each song a Xstar rating according to the normal guidelines. Than I take a look at the average score and that's what I award the album. That way I sometimes give one of my favourite albums a mere 3 star rating, simply because I look at its progrelated issues with the guidelines and not at my personal feelings about it. These feelings I still can express in the review itself ------------- Interested in my reviews? You can find them http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=784 - HERE "...He will search until He's found a Way to take the Days..." |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 17 2006 at 17:05
There are certain giveaways; "The guitar is really good, and the drums are fantastic. The singer has a great voice and the keyboards are cool. I really like track 2, and track 6 is the best ever!!! Track 8 has an awesome drum solo, dude, and, like is just awesome - you gotta buy this album!!!" Can you spot the subtle hints that would make me suspect that a review like that is pure fanboyism? Does it tell you about the music or the reviewer? ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: May 17 2006 at 17:07
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It is difficult tho, there are some albums that I REALLY don't like, and I think it's for valid reasons, but that can be hard to express, especially when that album has lots of 4 or 5 star reviews.
I can try to be fair, and i would never just slg off an album, but if your opinion, based on valid reasons is different to most other peoples then what DO you write??? If I said that I thought the links and themes were weak, I thought that the production values were poor etc etc, and the other reviewers said "Wow best album EVER" .............it makes me look a fool, or bitter about the success of that album. There are some truly apalling reviews here......... but with such a MASSIVE data base of material it's inevitable to get these poorly written hate/love reviews sneaking in. P-C |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 17 2006 at 17:14
surely comments like these show that the reviewer really likes the album. But do they - together with a 5 star rating - prove that the album is not worth 5 stars? The whole discussion is futile anyway because - as you also said - the averages in the progarchvies database are a mix of various different rating strategies. When I look at the reviews I feel like most people give 5 stars more freely than suggested by the guidelines, and ignoring that and sparing the 5 stars for the top 10 albums of all time is IMO unnecessarily punishing the other albums. But then again the ratings are not that important anyway - everybody knows that they can be "tweaked". ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 18 2006 at 05:20
Indeed - but you asked if they could really be separated, and that was the question I answered - in keeping with the topic "When is a review TOO subjective". The question is not whether the review proves that the album is NOT worth five stars, but whether the review goes any way to proving that it IS. A review like that only proves that the reviewer likes it - and is not very interesting, because it says nothing about the music, and does not even try to justify why the album is a masterpiece. A waste of space, in other words, as most people wouldn't buy an album based on something like that, I would suggest. And, having heard some of these "masterpieces", it has become a case of once bitten, twice shy - even though I have returned in some cases, to see if I had missed something. The only thing I missed was following the logic I presented above - to avoid "fanboy" reviewed albums. I'm just too curious ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 18 2006 at 06:24
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You don't need any reasoning at all - pure ratings can also be a helpful guide when buying albums. The trick is to pick your favorite reviewers and then to follow their ratings: - pick those reviewers that agree with you on certain landmark albums - ideally those which are controversial. So if you find a reviewer who agrees with you on CttE, Trout Mask Replica, Hot Rats, Terria, Scenes From A Memory, The Odyssey (SyX), ... then it is highly likely that you won't go completely wrong if you buy an album which is highly rated by that reviewer + is in a genre that you generally like. That's also my approach at www.ratingfreak.com - I'll add a "trusted reviewers" feature in the next few weeks. Then you can view top album lists by genre (rock/metal/jazz - not more specific) that show you albums which you haven't rated yet and which are highly rated by those reviewers. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 18 2006 at 07:37
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Ratings can be helpful, but that is not how I see the purpose of this site - I think it's more intelligent than X is fab and Y is crap, which is a debate that has raged since the dawn of mindless fanboyism.
There are plenty of sites that do ratings - and I don't think that ProgArchives is just another one - at least, it wasn't when I joined up. You can always go and look at a ratings-oriented site if a review here has made you curious. Of course, just because you agree with a reviewer about one album, it doesn't mean you'll agree with them about others. I'd be willing to bet that there are plenty of people who have read a couple of my reviews and said to themselves - "Yeah - that's almost what I think!", and then read others and said "What crap - it's nothing like that!". I know this to be true because I've had "fanboy" PMs about some of my reviews, and death threat PMs about others. I find it more useful to search out reasoned reviews among the dross for albums that are highly rated, and simply read well-written reviews using the RSS feed - which means I see every review as it comes onto the site and can filter that way. This site suits my tastes for reviews - if it ever turned into a RateYourMusic clone, I'd find somewhere else to lurk. This is a Progressive site.
-------------------------------- Your site looks good, BTW  ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 18 2006 at 07:55
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^ thanks! You should try it - create an account and rate an album, using all the inputs that are provided. I'd be interested in your feedback! I'd be particularly interested in feedback about the attributes that you can rate for each album - I'm not entirely happy with them yet. BTW: Of course the strategy that I described above includes the risk that you won't like an album rated highly by a "trusted reviewer" ... but then again this can be a chance for you to expand your musical horizon. Maybe you'll grow to like it. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Antennas
Date Posted: May 18 2006 at 07:59
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Hi all,
It's still a bit of a question to me how to give ratings - I always try to be objective, and sometimes that means I just give 3 stars to something I personally like very very much (and thus consider it a 5 stars album myself) as I realize that I should take into account that a 'personal love' isn't always a 'masterpiece' for everyone else.
I think everyone has a different approach to this, but we should surely try and distinguish between fanboyism (or fangirlism
 ) and an objective opinion.Baahhh... I fear this comment is uncomprehensible...  - hope you get what I mean to say. ------------- 
Jesus never managed to figure out the theremin either |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 18 2006 at 08:31
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I guess that as reviewers get more experienced (and listens to more different styles and bands) their ability grows to recognize which of their favorite albums are objectively great and which ones are really not that great but nevertheless special to the reviewer because of other, really personal factors. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: May 20 2006 at 11:20
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granted I haven't reviewed that many albums yet.... Ivan keeps me
pretty damn busy with the symphonic team but I give two ratings in my
reviews. My opinion of the albums place in the grand scheme of
things prog (the rating submitted to the site) and my personal view of
it. While I loved ELO 2 and consider it essential.... I'm not too
blind to see that many people (err.. all hahahha) would not. I
reviewed the Magma live album from Bruxelles 1971 and LOVED it... gave
it 4 or 5 stars personally.. but is it anywhere near an essential
album... no way. Gave it 3 stars to the site.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |