Overrated?
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Music Lounge
Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24756
Printed Date: July 19 2025 at 00:59
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Overrated?
Posted By: Guests
Subject: Overrated?
Date Posted: June 14 2006 at 23:02
|
How can a prog be overrated? I just don't see this word useful in music.
SO What makes a Prog band overrated?
|
Replies:
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 14 2006 at 23:15
prog bands are not overrated.... fans of the band overrate it... quite simple actually. Simple example... the multitude of 5 star reviews to an album which was nowhere near this particular groups greatest or best works... groups evolve and improve..... bit according to some group's fans... this group jumped right into prog and started making masterpieces of prog hahahha.  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Xenoxen wrote:Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: June 14 2006 at 23:19
|
There are cases of something being overrated, usually with cheap pop bands that are being pushed by the media to being super hip and popular, while many truly alented prog bands remain obscure because no one promotes them. They don't because prog is not for everyone and it's so much harder to make a teen girl like Hella than green day. They promote what's the most marketable without paying much attention to the quality, so most of this music is complete sh*t. In the prog world, there are a few bands that are overrated because they are over-the-top rated, like DT albums(don't get me wrong, DT are one of my all time favorite bands, I love them). I mean, over 300 ratings for octavarium, mostly people passing by who don't know much other prog, while a lot of more obscure bands with albums better that deserve more attention. I don't like the term Underrated though, "overlooked" is much better. They're not really rated too low(usually if a band/album is rated very low it deserves it), they're just not getting the attention they deserve due to labels not willing to promote. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: AtLossForWords
Date Posted: June 14 2006 at 23:30
I can't wait to see this thread alienate three quarters of the site.  -------------  
"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls." |
Posted By: The Ryan
Date Posted: June 15 2006 at 01:07
| This topic is overrated! |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: June 15 2006 at 01:17
|
It has to do with objectivity. It's a hard task to step back and give something you love an accurate analysis. Overrated may be too extreme a term, but some things may get valued more than is warranted. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Australian
Date Posted: June 15 2006 at 01:33
Very good Explanation. ------------- 
|
Posted By: Sacred 22
Date Posted: June 15 2006 at 02:09
yes..... so true and maybe this site should go to the 10 star system. It would be interesting to see how many nines we get in place of tens. The finer the scale, the more accurate the measure. They taught me that in Physics.
 |
Posted By: Dragon Phoenix
Date Posted: June 15 2006 at 02:48
|
Overrated is overrated.
------------- Blog this: http://artrock2006.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Rust
Date Posted: June 15 2006 at 04:41
So if someone really like an album and it happens to be somewhat proggy, it is illegal to rate it 5 stars?
 ------------- We got to pump the stuff to make us tough from the heart Its astart What we need is awareness we cant get careless Mental self defensive fitness Make everybody see in order to fight the powers that be |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: June 15 2006 at 07:35
Your quote is overrated also.
|
Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 15 2006 at 07:44
|
Overrating stuff is overrated.
-------------  
|
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: June 15 2006 at 08:02
|
In my opinion you can better focus on the underrated, overlooked and underestimated bands because some bands got so much attention like Dream Theater, Tool, Pain Of Salvation, Arena, Opeth, etc. Of course these are good bands (not my cup of tea) but in my opinion the huge attention they got on this site is unbalanced with the little attention lots of great bands from Spain, Italy, Japan and Latin-America get. But thanks to the treads about these bands I have the idea that more and more progheads discover bands like Museo Rosenbach, Triana, Gerard and Nexus. Nonetheless, to return to the origins of this thread, I think that bands like Dream Theater and Tool are overrated if you compare the quality of their music with, for example, Italian Le Orme and Banco or Spanish Triana and Cai or Argentine Crusis and Nexus.
|
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: June 15 2006 at 08:08
|
It would seem some fans would give a dishonest review to get the ratings (to overrate) up on a particular album, But why would fans be dishonest about a band they like? I just don't think the word overrated works. I think it's more of term used by people to put a band down they dislike.
You see if the bands are getting the good reviews it means the fans like them, so they can't be overrated. However if you dislike the band and a majority of the people love them you can say they are overrated. It really doesn't make sense.
IN CONCULSION: this word is never to be used again.
good day Humans
|
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: June 15 2006 at 08:09
Your comment is overrated
|
Posted By: Kotro
Date Posted: June 15 2006 at 09:54
Refuting is also overrated. ------------- Bigger on the inside. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 15 2006 at 11:27
Objectivity is not possible with music. There are objective qualities in music, some of them can even be quantified. But music cannot be discussed or judged solely on that level. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
|
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: June 15 2006 at 11:49
I am not talking about quantifying music. I am talking about having an objective point of view. It would be easier for me to give an accurate review of Rush, than it would be for Genesis. I like both bands, but Genesis is very special to me. This was made very clear to me in a discussion comparing "Supper's Ready" to "Close to the Edge." Micky was making a point about strength of composition, and was detailing the merits of CTTE. At first, I didn't want to hear it. After I put my passion aside, I could see that he was making a valid point. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Dirk
Date Posted: June 15 2006 at 11:58
|
Posted By: Arsillus
Date Posted: June 15 2006 at 12:34
|
ELP is overrated.
|
Posted By: omri
Date Posted: June 15 2006 at 14:59
|
I can not be objective. I will give an example that is very fresh at the moment. Few minutes ago I looked at the reviews in the homepage and saw someone gave ELO's Xanadu a 4 star rating (saying it is realy 3.5 stars to be fair with the guy).
I happened to be 18 years old when this LP was released and since it was quite popular in Israel at that time I heared it quite a lot in the radio. IMO it was a silly, shallow poppy rabish (only the moovie made with this album with Olivia Newton-John was worse than the music itself). This album (and I'm not saying it about all ELO albums) has no connection to prog and I have no idea why someone bothers reviewing it. So, for me this review is a huge overrating of this album. Yet, the guy who wrote it thinks totally different and who can say that one opinion is better than other's ?
The funny thing about this kind of discussions is that it made me waste time writing about something I dislike instead writing about music I love. This is why I think it makes no sense having this kind of threads and this post comes solely to demonstrate it. I hope I made my point clear. ------------- omri |
Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: June 15 2006 at 19:16
|
WHAT I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO KNOW IS: ¡¡¿WHO IS THE RATER?!!! ¡¡¡¿WHO (THE HELL) IS / ARE THE ONES THAT OVER OR UNDER RATES THINGS?!!!...I MEAN... ¿IS THERE SOMEKIND OF ONG THAT RATES BANDS SECRETLY AND THEN USE THE RESULTS OF THEIR WORK TO RULE THE WORLD BY MAKING PEOPLE USE THIS WORDS SO MUCH FOR NO PURPOSE AT ALL?... ¿OR IS THERE A VOICE THAT I'M NOT HEARING THAT TELLS WHAT IS UNDER AND WHAT IS OVER? ¿AM I OVERRRRRRRRRRRRRATED WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING? ¡¿AM I?!
Ok, I feel better know... I really really don't care. ------------- ¡Beware of the Bee! |
Posted By: mgallard
Date Posted: June 16 2006 at 00:41
|
What we need to implement is a system that'll let us rate the raters. That way the raters that are underrated have no weight in their ratings and we'll avoid overrating altogether. Now seriously, if we could rate the raters we could devise an algorithm so good raters ratings carry more weight (older members, more posts, more reviews, etc.) than newcomers that know nothing about Prog other than, for example, their newest fad "prog" metal group of whome they rate all their albums 5 stars and up (very objectively - not). Not complicated enough? Then we could have different weights for the ratings of the raters, this way... ahhhh shutupayaface! But I still think there'd be some merit in not weighing everyones ratings the same way, we all know democracy doesn't work, at least not when the majority of voters are uneducated. Mogens |
Posted By: imoeng
Date Posted: June 16 2006 at 03:16
|
overrated? is there really any standard of rating something? as far as im concern, its just a matter of your opinion... ------------- http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spmiw7.jpg"> 
|
Posted By: bruin69
Date Posted: June 16 2006 at 04:52
| The site's whole ratings system and the algorithm showing the Top 100 bands positively encourages overrating by fans eager to promote their favourite bands. So we either abandon the system or accept that the ratings are skewed and take the results with a bucketful of salt... |
Posted By: imoeng
Date Posted: June 16 2006 at 07:26
|
^ promote their favourite bands??? eh?? ------------- http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spmiw7.jpg">
|
Posted By: The Wizard
Date Posted: June 16 2006 at 09:41
I like the term Overlooked also, it makes more sense for the context you usually use underrated. -------------  
|
Posted By: Güdron
Date Posted: June 16 2006 at 12:24
|
Overrated?
An artist's sculpture has been rejected by the Royal Academy of Arts which has instead opted to display the wooden support it was put on.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/southern_counties/5081744.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/southern_counties/5081744.stm ------------- resistance is futile |
Posted By: cucacola54
Date Posted: June 16 2006 at 14:25
 Erik, your the man!!------------- Most listened albums last week 
|
Posted By: jj1414
Date Posted: June 16 2006 at 14:45
Overrated is a very good word to describe most prog music...
|
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 16 2006 at 14:47
What do you want from this site exactly?
|
Posted By: horza
Date Posted: June 16 2006 at 14:49
Ouch !!! ------------- Originally posted by darkshade: Calling Mike Portnoy a bad drummer is like calling Stephen Hawking an idiot. |
Posted By: billbuckner
Date Posted: June 16 2006 at 14:57
 |
Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: June 16 2006 at 15:48
Although you did have some valid points in your other topic, this comment is as stupid as many of the harsh comments you got in your own thread. If you seriously think that, then why are you here?  |
Posted By: RoyalJelly
Date Posted: June 16 2006 at 17:07
|
Here's a recycled post on the same subject, but since the question keeps coming back again...
The problem with the over/under-rated argument is a semantic one. Rating is a process has to do with numerical, verifiable evaluation, like in sports...most touchdown passes per season, or fastest hundred yard sprint. This can be measured and independently verified. Or in television, where ratings are measured for each program...this can all be determined. But in music?...maybe 10% of technical ability can be agreed on, and the rest is purely subjective, a matter of taste. For example, I may not like that Camel scores so high in the polls here, because I find them to be boring and derivative. But there are obviously many people who are moved by that stuff, and who am I to say they are wrong? And if I say they are overrated, what "rating" is that referring to? If it's about popularity, forget it, because Britney Spears will always be more popular than anyone on this site...Hitler was also very popular in his time (not that I'm comparing Britney and Adolph in any other way, although the Führer was probably a better singer and dancer). Measuring quality by sales, as the Grammies do, or by the polls on this site is obviously irrelevant. So, in maintaining that Camel is overrated, I am putting forth the false premise that 1) there are ways to objectively rate musical quality, and worse, 2) that I know better what the basis for this rating should be. Correct would be to say, "In my opinion, too many people like Camel, whereas I find them mediocre", and than to list the reasons for my opinion. Just to say Band A or B is overrated is to add nothing to the discussion except to further the misconception that musical rating exists. |
Posted By: moodyxadi
Date Posted: June 16 2006 at 17:22
|
You can't be objective in any way. Since Heraclitus and Protagoras this is a unrealistic goal (sorry, metaphysicians...).
But we can be less subjective if we say the reasons that enchanted us in some artist the more detailed way that we could. But the lottery of stars can impress a lot of people, so I think that this comment and the reasonable post above won't do nothing for the balance. ------------- Bach, Ma, Bros, Déia, Dante. |
Posted By: rushfan6588
Date Posted: June 16 2006 at 18:03
|
well, one problem that occasionally occures cauesin such "overrating" is when there are topic started asking people to rally behind a band because they dont have a single cd in the top 250 and some people not even knowing the band rate a particulat album 5 just because whomever said it was "Awesome" ------------- If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice. |
Posted By: jj1414
Date Posted: June 16 2006 at 22:56
Nothing, I'm just curious about people that listen to this type of music all the time and refuse to listen to different things.
|
Posted By: jj1414
Date Posted: June 16 2006 at 22:57
It's only stupid because you don't agree.
|
Posted By: imoeng
Date Posted: June 16 2006 at 22:59
|
^ this type of music... how many prog bands have u listened to?? prog is a REALLY big world of music u know... dont talk something like that unless u have listened to every prog sub genre..
------------- http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spmiw7.jpg">
|
Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: June 16 2006 at 23:05
|
No, it's stupid because you are providing no justification for it other than that it's too weird. And I don't know what planet you are living on, but the music press HATES prog. Some guy said Emerson was akin to a war criminal. And no, we don't listen soley to prog. I also listen to Classical and Jazz. But yes, I do avoid most modern mainstream music like the plague. Why? Because I find it bland, stale, and derivative. Hey, look! It's another song about sex and drugs! Whoopie! Or even better, the singer is whining about his girlfriend or his tormented inner life. Because being a rich and famous rock star sucks so very, very much...
And yes, I have given your precious Linkin Park a chance; I owned two of their albums in a previous life, unfortunately. I used to like them, but now I find their melodies uninspired, the beat has far too much dominance, the lyrics annoyingly whiny, and the vocals even more so. ("III'VEE BECOME SO NUUUMBB! I CAN'T FEEEL YOU THERE!" and "CRAAAAAAAAAAWWWWLLLING IIIINNN MY SKIIIIIIIINNNN! THESE WOUNDS THEY WILL NOOOOOT HEEAAAALLL! FEEAAAAARR ISSS HOW I FAAAALLL! CONFUUUUUSING! COOONFUSING WHAT IS REAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLL!")
How more juvenile can you get? What wounds? How did you get them? Why won't they heal? And stop whining about your girlfriend dumping your loser ass and get over it! ------------- "Never forget that the human race with technology is like an alcoholic with a barrel of wine." Sleepytime Gorilla Museum: Because in their hearts, everyone secretly loves the Unabomber. |
Posted By: imoeng
Date Posted: June 16 2006 at 23:07
|
^ owhh!! no offense man, but if u speak like that, you are somewhat no different than jj1414.. im a prog - progmet fan, and sometimes the lyrics are just kinda like that as well... again, its just a matter of taste ------------- http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spmiw7.jpg">
|
Posted By: Zac M
Date Posted: June 16 2006 at 23:15
Most of us aren't like that  .------------- "Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression." -Merleau-Ponty |
Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: June 16 2006 at 23:15
|
No, I'm giving the reasons why I don't like Linkin Park, unlike jj, who has only said that he thinks most of prog is too "weird." If you like them, whatever; I'm just saying why I don't like them. And all of their lyrics are like that. Can you name 2 songs of theirs which are not about some unspecified psychic wounds or his girlfriend dumping him/fighting with him? As for the mainstream comment: Prog-metal is not mainstream. ------------- "Never forget that the human race with technology is like an alcoholic with a barrel of wine." Sleepytime Gorilla Museum: Because in their hearts, everyone secretly loves the Unabomber. |
Posted By: imoeng
Date Posted: June 16 2006 at 23:17
was that for me?? no, im not that "mainstream", i was just saying im a progmet fan, and some of progmet songs are just like "heart breaking" stuff.. ------------- http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spmiw7.jpg">
|
Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: June 16 2006 at 23:30
|
Oh, I thought you were insulted by my mainstream comment because bands like Dream Theater, Tool, and Opeth are very popular in many circles which do not normally listen to prog. I don't mind heart-breaking stuff once in a while, but it gets really annoying when almost every. single. song. is whining about his girlfriend or some mental problems. Hey, you're rich! Either get another girlfriend or get some therapy, but I don't want to hear about it!
Depressing is ok, but I can only take so much of a view into the singer's inner psyche. I like The Bends, because Thom always says "you" instead of "I"; it's subtle, but it makes the difference from it being depressing to it being whiny. ------------- "Never forget that the human race with technology is like an alcoholic with a barrel of wine." Sleepytime Gorilla Museum: Because in their hearts, everyone secretly loves the Unabomber. |
Posted By: imoeng
Date Posted: June 16 2006 at 23:32
|
^ ahh, i get it,, heart breaking stuff for every single song is EMO... ------------- http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spmiw7.jpg">
|
Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: June 16 2006 at 23:41
Correction: Every song is hearbreaking as dictated by third grade poetry And now to present my theory on "emo" *this should probably go in the rant room* Hair Metal= Emo Now, before you question this, let me explain myself They're both mass produced image based music. THINK ABOUT IT Who are the girls all over these days? EMO PEOPLE. And who were they all over in the 80's? HAIR METAL PEOPLE My point? As long as there's a music industry, there's going to be a token genre that is totally image driven and mass produced. So, don't lament on how "emo is the end of all music", cuz this has been going on for quite some time. This is just its latest avatar. ....and now I realize that has almost nothing to do with this forum. However, I retract nothing. ------------- 
|
Posted By: imoeng
Date Posted: June 17 2006 at 00:35
|
^ hey cool man, take it easy... i was just saying most EMO songs are heart breaking songs... dont make it confusing and complicated with hair metal, industry, 80s stuff... ------------- http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spmiw7.jpg">
|
Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: June 17 2006 at 00:49
|
Haha sry I tend to get off on random tangents sometimes. And trust me, there is good out of every genre. For example, Coheed and Cambria is considered "emo", but I have every album by them *and enjoy them*. And Mindcrime is a great album *can't say much else about teh ryche's albums though*
-------------
|
Posted By: RoyalJelly
Date Posted: June 17 2006 at 02:36
It's funny that when actors overact, people tend to recognize it, because you can compare it to ordinary human behavior and see that it's totally phony and fake. In the case of EMO and SCREAMO, the singers are overcompensating for that the fact that the MUSIC itself has no substance, they're w**king on the same three chords since 40 years, and nothin' happening lyrically either, so I'll just act out a nervous breakdown, that'll at least seem like something new and "edgy". Strangely, people can't get enough of this, and the women singers are trying to outdo the guys at being pissed off and upset how their lover treats them SOOO bad. But hey, if you identify with the personal brand of pain that they're portraying, then enjoy it, but don't be naïve and fool yourself into thinking it's authentic, or anything but cold calculation for the market. Again, nothing to do with ratings or prog, just the sad state of the multi-billion dollar music industry.   
But to get back to prog, I was just in Rome, and in every record store I was in, there's a section for Yes, Crimson, Genesis, PFM (of course), etc. That means that these bands that dared innovate still have place in the contemporary rock landscape, while 99% of the mediocre new Wave, Disco, Punk, or whatever once was the "latest thing" have disappeared from popular memory...a similiar fate awaits clone EMO groups and other trendmongers. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 17 2006 at 04:55
|
"w**king on the same three chords since 40 years" ... do you mean that the purpose of music is to evolve to using new chords indefinitely? There is a limited number of chords, and I'm sure that a piece of music doesn't have to use as many chords as possible in order to be interesting.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
|
Posted By: RoyalJelly
Date Posted: June 17 2006 at 09:37
Well, yes, why not? Not that nice music can't be made using familiar chord progressions, but bands or artists that rely entirely on pre-existing formulas, with nothing new to distinguish them, are certainly engaged more in a process of recycling than of artistic creation. It's to their advantage that younger audiences haven't heard these clichés a million times already and think maybe they're original. If there are a limited number of chords, even that is disputable since there are many types of chords besides the major and minor exclusively used in pop (with the occasional 7th or diminished thrown in), but possible combinations are indeed infinite, so just reusing ones for the umpteenth time is a clear sign of a lack of originality. The main point is not newness for its own sake, but having something to say musically. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 17 2006 at 10:14
|
^ There aren't many simple chords. Of course you can create many new and interesting things by combining chords, playing chords in unusual contexts etc. etc.. But sometimes a song doesn't call for that kind of complexity. The more complex, the better ... I don't agree with that at all, and listening to albums like Frances the Mute I fear that people might begin to confuse complexity with creativity. An artist can be hugely creative without using any time signature change in a song, and without leaving traditional pop chord progressions.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
|
Posted By: RoyalJelly
Date Posted: June 17 2006 at 10:58
|
I agree that it's POSSIBLE to use simple chord changes in astonishing new ways, but few pop/rock musicians are in a position to know how to do this...Peter Gabriel, David Sylvian, Peter Hammill, Kate Bush, Robert Wyatt are a few, all people capable of working in more complex forms when the concept calls for it. I'm just discovering Wyatt's early stuff, and amazed at how he turns around simple changes in totally surprising ways, like in "Sea Song". But that's not all he does...and there's a big difference between doing that because you want to and CAN, and just rehashing clichés because you have no new ideas, and because they tend to sell better (ie. about 90% of pop/rock).
|
Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: June 17 2006 at 12:07
It's stupid because there is many, many under-rated progbands. Besides, you don't seem to know anything about prog anyway, so who are you to judge? Give some valid arguments for why most prog is over-rated and then we'll talk. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: June 17 2006 at 14:54
Those lyrics look perfectly good to me - what's actually wrong with them? From your comments, it looks like you simply don't understand them! The irony. I can think of far worse Prog Rock lyrics. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: mgallard
Date Posted: June 17 2006 at 14:59
|
Ain't this thread getting a bit dumb? Is there a rant section it can be moved to? Mogens |
Posted By: omri
Date Posted: June 17 2006 at 16:15
|
To Gahndi 2 (mainly) and to all the rest :
It is not so common to see you totally failed but this conversation (can we realy call it conversation ?) proved me that I failed explaining why this whole kind of questions leads to no good thing. I showed how explaining why a specific album is not worthy led me to waste my time on something that I dislike and you did just the same a day later. Let me just say that the original Gahndi woukd avoid doing that.
That does'nt mean that I agree with jj1414. I do'nt think he worth an answer. I think that we shouls concentrate on things that we respect and love. ------------- omri |
Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: June 17 2006 at 16:49
What's wrong with them is that I find them whiny, annoying, and incredibly juvenile. If you can stand to listen to them without feeling an overwhelming urge to hurt Chester, then that's great. But I can't.
I also think that descending into angst and self-loathing is taking the easy way out, but I think that is a conversation for another time. I give credit to Linkin Park for being more melodic than most bands in their nebulous genre--but that doesn't mean I want to listen to them.
I do understand the lyrics; these are not exactly complicated songs with obscure allusions, metaphors, and hidden meanings.
Numb is about some kid who is tired of his/her parents (I add her because in the music video it's a girl) controlling what they want him/her to be. Everything this poor, poor child does is viewed as a mistake by his/her parents because his/her parents want him/her to do what they did. The song ends with the scathing indictment of Well you disappointed your parents too. (I paraphrase) Crawling is about the singer's insecurity and significant emotional/mental problems caused by an unspecified tramua, or perhaps a series of tramuas. I can't say any more because there's really nothing more to the song.
I can't believe I just wrote that. And now I have those damn songs stuck in my head again. I must go listen to some prog to cleanse my ears. And BTW, the stuff about "What wounds?" was a joke.
Yes, there are prog lyrics are worse, but something because something else is worse doesn't mean that LP's lyrics are good; it just means that there are other people out there who are even worse at writing lyrics than Chester is.
I will concede that I was perhaps a bit harsh; however, I did it because I wanted jj to see my point of view, which he did not seem to see and nobody else seemed to be willing to bother typing an explanation other than "Linkin Park sucks. They just do; I don't feel like explaining it." ------------- "Never forget that the human race with technology is like an alcoholic with a barrel of wine." Sleepytime Gorilla Museum: Because in their hearts, everyone secretly loves the Unabomber. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: June 17 2006 at 17:30
It's the content that offends you? You can't just step back and see them as a good set of lyrics?
I know what you mean - everybody should love themselves all the time 
Not obscure, no. And nor are the lyrics to a great many Prog Songs - I still don't see the problem. But it's still apparent you have difficulty understanding the lyrics:
You REALLY don't like the subject matter - but does that make the lyrics intrinsically bad? The subject matter is what a proportion of teenage kids think - and you're saying that they're wrong to have that kind of thought? The whole genericness of the lyrics is the strength that gives them a wide appeal. You can read into them whatever you like, so they become personal. The fact that you had such a violent reaction to them means that they worked on you - the purpose of art is to create a reaction. If you were just bored and unmoved to comment, then it would have failed on you, and you could feel more justified that the lyrics are not very good. As it is, the opposite appears to be the case - you even find the songs deeply memorable, proving that the music has something going for it. If you don't like the lyrics, fine - that's your opinion. But to try to argue that they are bad for a reason, but not be able to give a reason other than "I don't like the content" is fairly lame.
Ahahaha.
Good and bad are relative, and so far, you haven't managed to qualify any of this. I can see nothing bad in their lyrics - I'm not saying they're poetry, but the point is that there are LOTS of people worse than Chester.
...which is exactly what you've just said - but with more words. 
------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 17 2006 at 17:34
|
^ lol ... now Certif1ed is praising Linkin Park in a prog forum ...
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
|
Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 17 2006 at 17:36
Sersiously, creativity is about forging new paths; this has always been the case. That doesn't mean one can't forge a new path within an idiom or genre, but if what you're doing has essentially been done a thousand times before (or - in the case of most Rock music; a million times), it is by definition not creative. -------------
|
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 17 2006 at 17:45
Listening to FTM I'm always looking forward to the quiet, mellow parts ... the quirky parts are a bit over the top for my taste. The complexity is there if you bother to think about the lyrics, and some rhythms are strange (16ths) ... and I get the impression that they're doing it to impress the listener, not because it is called for by the concept. But of course this is all my personal opinion - I know that there are those who love the album for all these things and praise it as the new star on the prog horizon.
I don't consider JBJ to be particularly creative - he writes good tunes, and the early BJ albums were simply masterpieces of American mainstream Rock - in particular Slippery When Wet and New Jersey. And I don't agree with your definition of creativity. Innovation is often involved, but you can also be creative within preset boundaries. I can be creative as a musician without inventing new scales or time signatures ... I don't need a scale named after me in order to be recognized as an artist. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
|
Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 17 2006 at 17:50
And for someone into Prog Metal to complain about any band doing complex stuff just to impress the listener is pretty much an own goal. -------------
|
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 17 2006 at 17:55
Manipulation #1. Now you're saying that you agree with me, but then you say that acting within preset boundaries is not "truly" creative. We don't agree - get used to it.
For simple, generalizing minds this might be true. But this generalization is another clever manipulation - it assumes that all prog metal is doing complex stuff just to impress the listener, which is a ridiculous statement to say the least. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
|
Posted By: necromancing777
Date Posted: June 17 2006 at 17:56
I whole-heartedly agree on all fronts. As far as Bon Jovi goes, I personally wouldn't buy any of their music, but if someone put on a Bon Jovi record, I wouldn't ask them to turn it off either.
Mars Volta: I for one have always enjoyed 'Deloused' more than 'Frances'. However, I would say that FTM is more "complex" than DITC, but no more "creative". ------------- 
"Your progressive hypocrites hand out their trash, But it was mine in the first place, so I'll burn it to ash." |
Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 17 2006 at 18:03
And I maintain that any definition of creativity has to include innovation, otherwise you are using the word in a non-standard way, and should probably reconsider what you mean by it.
Prog Metal is a genre replete with w**kerism-over-songs and it's accused left and right of being more about the technique than anything else. Whether those accusations are spot-on, completely off the mark or somewhere inbetween doesn't matter; a Prog Metal fan should know better than levelling the selfsame accusations against another band or genre. -------------
|
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 17 2006 at 18:11
|
^ have a look at this definition: "One can define creativity as the mental phenomena, skills and/or tools capable of originating (and subsequently developing) innovation, inspiration or insight. Pop psychology generally may associate it with right or forehead brain activity or even specifically with lateral thinking." Now ... as I said, innovation is a large part of it, but not everything. Applied to (prog) music I think you have to separate the content of the music from the stylistic elements used to transport the content. To use a more simple example: A painter doesn't need to invent new colors, new brushstroke techniques etc. in order to paint an interesting picture. The innovation can be in the content of the picture ... and in music that's also possible. A band like Opeth (to get back to the initial topic) can merely re-combine existing elements of music (Death Metal, Symphonic Prog etc) and use them to make an interesting album like Blackwater Park - and I can choose to call it creative music without them reinventing the wheel like The Mars Volta are trying to do. And about your reply to my TMV statement: No response necessary - your reply is as devastating as it can get. Just not for me! ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
|
Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 17 2006 at 18:14
-------------
|
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 17 2006 at 18:15
|
^ you're the one who is just replying to my posts saying "thank you for proving my point". But I do agree - let's ignore each other! I want to talk about music anyway, and you don't seem to be in the mood for that - unless if it involves hurting people (referring to that Asia thread).------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
|
Posted By: jj1414
Date Posted: June 17 2006 at 19:50
I think saying it's weird is about as good as you calling Linkin Park "uninspired". for your information, I have listened to lots of prog. some of it's ok, but most of it is weird and just not very good. Oh yeah, forgot most people who like prog also like Jazz and classical, you all seem to have the same taste. something that might surprise you is that I like classical too, so come off your little high! you're not as superior as you think you are.
|
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: June 18 2006 at 00:10
I still have to wonder why someone who doesn't really like prog, is joining us here. No one is forcing you to like it. Why would you want to come here and spread all of this negativity? Were you dumped by a prog fan, or something? ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: June 18 2006 at 00:34
I don't think I'm superior. I think I don't like Linkin Park. And yes, we all have similar tastes; this is a forum for ONE GENRE OF MUSIC! It's a very diverse genre, but it's till only one genre. Would you surprised if everyone at a Punk board shared many tastes? The more you post, the more I think that you are a sneaky troll who is leading us on without being ridiculous enough to get yourself banned.
And I said a lot more than just "uninspired," if you would care to read my entire post.
It's fine if you think prog is not very good; I don't think Linkin Park or most things written since 1980 years is very good, especially anything which is mainstream.
------------- "Never forget that the human race with technology is like an alcoholic with a barrel of wine." Sleepytime Gorilla Museum: Because in their hearts, everyone secretly loves the Unabomber. |
Posted By: jj1414
Date Posted: June 18 2006 at 04:25
Why should I care to read the rest of what you have to say? you don't care about what I have to say! I've already asked the question I wanted to ask you guys, it was a simple question, I asked why so many of you are closeminded about other kinds of music because that's the impression I've gotten from chatting with prog fans on other boards, YOU'RE the ones who are continuing to debate with me about it! Pardon me for having an opinion. I guess anyone who has an opinion different from yours is a "troll"? if you were curious as to why punk fans liked only punk music and nothing else, wouldn't you go to a punk board in order to get the answer to your question? I think you would.
|
Posted By: jj1414
Date Posted: June 18 2006 at 04:35
Um whoa, I just realized that I'm debating with a lot of people who are like 20 years older than me! That's really weird! Kind of cool. I might also be the only female on here too! Confession, the guy I used to have a crush on was a prog fan, and he posted here. Shhhh! 
|
Posted By: jj1414
Date Posted: June 18 2006 at 04:52
Know what? now I kind of feel bad I said those things, I didn't mean to offend anyone with my opinion, I'm not going to take back what i said but i won't say anything more about it, out of respect and in rememberance of someone i loved. I miss him but he was really stuck up, sorry i took it out on you guys. 
ttyl.
|
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: June 18 2006 at 04:56
Sorry to disappoint you, but I am a female too, and probably even more than 20 years older than you (not that it's a problem to me ). The thing is, if I were to do the same to get back at all the guys who disappointed me, I would spend the whole day posting on forums instead of doing other things. |
Posted By: jj1414
Date Posted: June 18 2006 at 17:11
lol, you're right! maybe I'm trying to get back at all of them, surely they can't all be as bad as him!
|
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: June 18 2006 at 17:42
One major difference is that I am not calling them geniuses as you did with Bon Jovi ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: SlipperFink
Date Posted: June 18 2006 at 19:07
|
...
Apperantly I have UNDERrated the amount of free time some posters here on ProgFlogFlimFlamFrimminOnTheJimJamFrammenOnZeKrotz have. OK. Now that the tone for the website has been set by the poster... here's a little joke that should be in keeping. 2 TV antenna's were married. The ceremony was awful. But the reception was terrific. See? We can all be blithering idiots. All it takes is a little effort and a whole lot of airplane glue. SM. SM. ------------- Modesty is an ornament, but one goes further without it. Old German Proverb |