Progressive Rock: An Essay
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Topic: Progressive Rock: An Essay
Posted By: Man Overboard
Subject: Progressive Rock: An Essay
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 14:35
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I have a theory about music, and one's enjoyment of it. I believe that there are concrete factors that can influence any particular person's enjoyment of music. Also: Progressive rock! I feel that there is something of a tug-of-war between initial accessibility and depth in music. Generally it's like a weighted scale: a piece that is immediately accessible is not likely to contain a great deal of depth, and a piece that is very deep is not likely to be immediately accessible to the listener. As accessibility is the first level that the average listener encounters, record companies naturally tend toward initial accessibility, striving to avoid letting depth interfere with the listener. What makes a piece of music accessible? My take: reward zones. If a song follows a familiar format, structure, or progression, the brain recognizes it and rewards the body with pleasure. "Hey, I know this. I feel this. I know where it's going. I feel special!" If one has heard 200 songs that follow the same structure, using the same basic chord progressions, with the same sorts of tone colors and melodies, it is likely that a 201st song in that vein will be accepted by the brain. However, like the 201st ice cream cone, one's mind may become bored by such striking similaries. Yet, a complete diversion from that path into uncharted territories could evoke reactions of confusion from the brain, which may in turn lead to rejection. Hence, the music industry today. If one follows a band's journey from an independent label to a major label, one may notice something disconcerting; the idiosyncratic elements that made the band special to begin with have been stripped away so that they too may march down the corridor of chameleons. When record sales in a particular genre begin to drop, a record label is not likely to turn a complete 180 and offer something completely different. Rather, they examine what was successful in the immediate past, take the basic elements of it, and apply a coating of elements from an up-and-coming genre. Hence the 'popular' progression from vocal-oriented stars like Madonna to the beat-oriented 'music' (lol) of Britney Spears to the current mainstream hip-hop. One might be surprised (or not) to note that certain songwriters and producers have been leading the way in all of the mentioned eras. This is not limited to the music marketed as pop, however. Examine the progression from Nirvana-era grunge to pop-punk to nu-metal to today's hard rock 'emo' groups. Do these genres not share many characteristics not present in the 'pure' iterations of said genres, with the purpose of keeping that immediate accessibility at the forefront, trading off something as 'unimportant' as depth and true musical individuality? There was even a painful period of time in the mid-to-late 90's when the form of expression known as the guitar solo was thrown overboard, as it was a diversion from the straight-forward formulas employed. One may wish to look at what is considered 'underground' rock today. Indie rock, claiming to take music where it's never gone before, is rated highest when it's at its most accessible. Listeners can feel rebellious when digital dirt gives the impression of an album having been recorded on a lo-fi cassette deck. A singer wailing off-key might give the feeling of 'authenticity'. The occasional keyboard playing pentatonics around the detuned, run-through-a-20-watt-amp guitar might allude to innovation. And yet, the indie rock that most closely resembles popular rock with all its accessibility and hooks and shallowness is the indie rock of the 'non-conformist's' choice. There's always been bad music. Formulaic music. Music that requires no thought, no active mental participation on the behalf of the listener. But is it only coincidence that during an era when a large group of young persons (hippies) attempted to create a global enlightenment that 'head music', music that demanded repeated listens and studies to fully grasp and enjoy, received an uncharacteristic amount of popularity? 1966-1974 was a magical era for music fans. With Hendrix, Cream, Pink Floyd, Yes, Genesis, Emerson Lake and Palmer, King Crimson, The Nice, The Moody Blues, Procol Harum, and many other psychedelic and progressive rock groups taking main stage, producing music that was in many cases wildly different in structure, tonality, rhythm, and concept with the popular music before (and after), it was okay to appreciate music on a level other than how it made your body move. It was perfectly alright for music to be art, to have pretensions beyond the three-minute single. But as the counter-culture declined, the music followed suit, at least from the eyes of the radio-listening public. We are, of course, a people that accepts, even demands mediocrity. Our top-rated movies and television programs show little to no innovation, while the true gems and masterpieces are buried far below. The Academy Awards, the Grammys, and other such awards have long been a running joke. And yet, there is a percentage of the population that demands much more from music, believing it capable of being art on a serious level. Many of these people stick with the output of '66-'74, feeling that music that came afterwards could never measure up. And indeed, if one were to only focus on popular, forcefully marketed music, this would be an easy conclusion to reach. I would like to focus on the group of people who enjoy the music called 'progressive rock'; being a member of that group, I feel it is the one I am most qualified to speak about. Progressive rock is difficult to define. Some feel it is music that shares characteristics with the 'golden era' of bands previously mentioned, with the Beatles' later output and the works of Frank Zappa being other groups most worthy of mention. Others feel it's any music that gives itself no boundaries, with the music being the end in and of itself. Both are correct, of course. Progressive rock is both a stylistic mark and a forward-thinking movement. I could go on for days talking in detail about what makes music progressive rock, but I'll spare you that, and instead speak broadly. Progressive rock lies on the opposite end of the spectrum from mainstream, corporate music. Rather than sticking to a particular, well-trodden formula, it eschews accessibility for depth and exploration. A progressive rock piece could be a 5-minute song that incorporates elements of many diverse types of music. It could also be personified in a 100-minute, 2-disc concept album that carries several interweaving themes and is not afraid to give a difficult listen that can only be fully appreciated after many examinations. Many diverse influences, including but most certainly not limited to classical music, classic literature, world music, free jazz, chamber music, beat poetry, minimalism, atonality, and philosophy are prominent in progressive rock. Instrumental virtuosity is a common thread, though not a strict requirement. A large assortment of non-traditional instruments and tone colors are a leading element. I believe that the brain's interaction with music is often determined by familiarity. One will often enjoy a piece of music that they can subconsciously grasp more than one they have no understanding of. Therefore, the journey of familiarizing oneself with uncommon music is often a rocky one, though it can lead to great rewards. Very nice is the feeling of a piece of previously foreign music 'clicking' for the first time, even if it took 20 listens to arrive at that spot. After many years of this 'active listening', I find that music that was previously completely inaccessible to me now gives me a feeling of utter bliss not unlike a strong, long-lasting orgasm. The difficulty with this, of course, is introducing the music to others. You might have listened to 20-minute-epic Z 15 times, and now bob your head to every time change, soak in every unconventional harmony, and grin happily at every twist and turn you've discovered, but your friend, likely unfamiliar with not only the piece itself, but the -style- of active music, may hear a wall of inpenetrable sound with the occasional traditional hook or melody and find it quite easy to dismiss. Having discovered this music 8 years ago and of course immediately attempting to share it with others, of the people I've personally introduced it to, I can count on the fingers of one hand those who've embraced it to the degree that I have. Thankfully, the internet provides an accessible forum for people with similar interests to interact. I'm not proposing that progressive rock fans are incentrically more intelligent or otherwise superior to their mainstream-listening friends, however, merely that they actively expect more from their music. Compare a group of progressive rock fans to a group of mainstream rock fans, and you'll find that an exponentially higher amount of the prog fans, per capita, become well-versed musicians and composers. This, I believe, is how progressive rock propogates. The numbers gained by sharing the music with others simply aren't enough to make it a mainstream interest 'worthy' of label-manufactured bands (and thank goodness for that... examine the pop-prog groups of the late 70's and be very very afraid). Rather, the fans dive into the world of progressive rock, often learning one or more instruments for themselves, and form bands, creating their own progressive rock, with influences both old and new. With this, progressive rock still has a strong, loyal following 40 years after its conception, not striving to keep the music identical to the music of its conception, but instead attempting to chart even more unexplored paths, in the -spirit- of the original bands rather than the form. ------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Replies:
Posted By: Dalezilla
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 15:06
Wow great essay Man Overboard!! 
That was very interesting and I wholeheartedly agree with you.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 15:25
 ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Posted By: GoldenSpiral
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 15:28
It's a little bit cynical at the start, but then again so am I! well written. ------------- http://www.myspace.com/altaic" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/altaic ALTAIC "Oceans Down You'll Lie" coming soon |
Posted By: Deadwing12
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 15:33
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+ A billion. Excellent essay, and quite fluently written. A very nice stand on a slightly controversial subject, and I agree with you as well as commend you for a well spoken job well done. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Deadwing008/?chartstyle=Basquiat"> 
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Posted By: Hierophant
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 15:38
Beautiful. ------------- 
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Posted By: The Green Tank
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 15:47
Great essay. Pretty much exactly what I think, too. ------------- 
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Posted By: Frasse
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 15:47
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Phew, that was a lot of reading... A good text but I can't say that I agree on everything. I would have preferred if you stated that you're talking about pop music (20th century western pop music, distributed through records) and not music in general. |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 15:59
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Very good MO! The only thing I might add is that progressive rock does not follow trends such as fashion as other pop or corporate music does. I mean when Keith Emerson came out wearing leather pants there was not a fashion rush to do to so. It does not need choreography or dance numbers to keep people interested either. It is the one peculiar music that focuses entirely on the music.
------------- 
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: Frasse
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 16:15
It isn't. It's the one genre of modern popular music that focuses entirely on the music, but not even that is true since light shows and videos running above the band on concerts seems to be quite common among prog bands. |
Garion81 wrote:Posted By: Empathy
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 17:14
I think you mean intrinsically here. Well written! and I agree with many of your conclusions. ------------- Pure Brilliance: 
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Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 17:19
Good catch! I wrote this last night around 2 AM, without the luxury of spell-check.  ------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Posted By: Syntharachnid
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 17:23
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Very excellent, and very eloquent. Whenever I write about prog for my friends, its like "I'm better than you. So listen to my music."
I enjoyed reading it very much.  ------------- 
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Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 17:38
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Wow Aaron, I love your essays This one's the best so far You should write a book or something, seriously. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 17:56
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Good work, Aaron! I wholeheartedly agree with you too. However, to answer a point mentioned above: JamBands and other blues and jam based bands also don't follow trends either. Having seen Gov't Mule twice, I can say it's all about the music. They're not a prog band at all (but they have done prog covers and have prog influences). But as a rule of thumb, prog bands don't generally follow or set trends. -------------   
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Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 18:04
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A good blend of facts and emotion, Man Overboard, I just read it and I mostly agree about the fact that prog is an adventurous style, you have to discover it and you have to do your best to get into it!
But on the other hand it's cynical to notice that nowadays most progheads are male, 40 plus, have a good job and prefer to lay down between the high quality hifi set and listening to the known progrock bands instead of seeking the adventure to discover and support new progrock bands .... how regressive
 ! |
Posted By: Forgotten Son
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 18:04
| I don't agree with much of it, but it's very well written. |
Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 18:05
I'm 22, destitute, and constantly searching... and my $30 headphones get the job done. And most of my personal friends who are into prog are female!  ------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 18:14
I am 45, I have no financial complaints and I am still constantly searching for new good prog.. I just enjoyed Rush Replay on my balcony with my new Akai portable dvd player but I wish I had a few more personal friends who are into prog and female ........  .. I wonder who's the lucky b  rd ..  ?!
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Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 18:25
Maybe the bands that lasted into the later 70's could indulge in this high power light shows and productions but I find that an average display of lights today is about tops for modern prog. If you see Nearfest or Calprog you will see a pleasant but simple display of lights and really no videos that I have seen. Even if a band has some visuals (and that included the 70's) they are an extension of the music not a substitution.
-------------
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 19:08
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Well, Man Overboard wrote nothing new under the sun...but he id write it!!! Basically he said what we all (in some degrees) think, yet never could put in paper...Hands down, great job man!
------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Posted By: coffeeintheface
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 19:19
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nice! was this for a college class or something? very well done.
------------- OBQM: www.soundcloud.com/onebigquestionmark (solo project) nQuixote: www.soundcloud.com/n-quixote (ambient + various musical ideas) |
Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 19:20
Thanks, everyone, for the comments. 
Nah... I couldn't sleep last night, and when I can't sleep, I write, and this is what I wrote. ------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Posted By: Lunarscape
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 00:05
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Well written and thoughtfull essay MO. You se, I'm 49 and wealthy and healthy. Most of my female friends do enjoy the enormous amount of prog played here in the house and in the car. The thing is that the search for "new" stuff is not interresting in the same intensity as it was 30 years ago. Today I take much more joy in rediscovering the immense universe of great music produced in the early seventies. But thats me ! As an example I can tell you that even not being a Genesis fan, I've caught myself enjoying FOXTROT, TRESPASS and NURSERY CRIME, recently, in proportions I didnt when theses albums were released. ------------- Music Is The Soul Bird That Flies In The Immense Heart Of The Listener . . . |
Posted By: soundsweird
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 01:43
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Very good job of exploring/explaining this particular aspect of music....
Of course, you're talking about that small minority of people (like those of us on the forum) who are not only intelligent enough to know what we want from music, but who consider music an integral part of their lives. The majority are happy with whatever is thrust upon them (by radio, TV, movies, dance clubs, the corner bar, etc.). And then there are those people who only listen to talk radio or sports, who own no music at all (it's true, I've seen it with my own eyes!!).
I guess my point is that there just aren't that many people who care enough about music to put any effort into their "listening experience". Music is way down their list of priorities, and who's to say they're wrong?
For the record, I consider myself obsessed with music to the extent that I could win a competition here, listing things I do that would leave no doubt concerning my level of sanity. Maybe I'll start a thread...
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Posted By: Rust
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 04:16
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Blew my mind.
------------- We got to pump the stuff to make us tough from the heart Its astart What we need is awareness we cant get careless Mental self defensive fitness Make everybody see in order to fight the powers that be |
Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 09:20
very well written account, sums up most of our ideas about prog. to be frank part of my enjoyment of prog is the elite exclusivity and quaintness of it all, i wouldn't like it to be over publicised. i enjoy seeing live prog groups without having to shell out £150 a ticket, i enjoy finding an old overlooked gem in the record shop that nobody else has bothered to notice, i enjoy being challenged by virtuosity in music rather than people listening to Britney Spears whilst washing up or "working out" (all a waste of selfish energy anyway). i know people who are theatre-goers and see the most obscure plays, they wouldn't dream of discussing anything off the "telly" to each other. Like me saying i'm a Spice Girls fan (i'm not!!). i won't watch or listen to corporate mediocrity by choice, i don't just sit and let it wash all over me and buy their toothpaste - i enjoy listening to complex music that hardly anyone i know listens to. i'm proud of it..........and it's all mine!!  -------------  Prog Archives Tour Van 
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Posted By: The Wizard
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 09:44
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I agree with you!
But remember that prog is not the only music that's innovative and exciting, it's just another form of music that is. -------------  
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Posted By: crimson thing
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 09:57
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One thing MO (very) tangentially touched upon was something that I've wondered about - that there are two ways of enjoying music. There's the way you can enjoy a new piece, one you haven't heard before; and the way you "learn" to like a piece of music, on repeated listening. Perhaps because you know & anticipate the key changes, time changes, and so on. (My classic example here would be KC's Starless, which I don't think anyone would really go for on first listen; but when you know where it's going, you (might) learn to love it.) I'm not sure the same applies to other arts. Pictorial - visual - art, for instance. Isn't that more immediate - ie, love at first sight is possible? And literature - maybe, maybe not; some books I like on a first reading, but a few require rereading for full enjoyment. But, yes, I would still argue that music is more of a learnt enjoyment - learnt from experience, however, not from being taught. ------------- "Every man over forty is a scoundrel." GBS 
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Posted By: MajesterX
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 09:57
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That was amazing! Writing and composing something from a pure idea that pops into your head for no particular reason has always facinated me. Great job, especially for one who wrote this because he couldn't sleep!
------------- 
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Posted By: Empathy
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 10:05
I don't think he's trying to imply that. He just says that's the example he's most well-versed in. ------------- Pure Brilliance:
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Posted By: YYZed
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 10:11
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Excellent! Agree with you about how many prog listeners become well versed musicians and composers. I am by no means "well-versed", but I am a musician, and every one person I know who enjoys progressive rock is interested in creating their own music. They likely feel that the challenge of listening to music should be carried over into its creation, or vice versa. ------------- 
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Posted By: Aspiring hope
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 10:35
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Ironic or simply misguided delusion of mine, it seems both formal
integrity and textual content of the written/typed essay harmonicly
adapts itself with one's view of music (and numerous other
interpretations of art), as, at first glimpse, one of little interest
towards what's new and less accessible, could find him/herself
intimidated or even repelled while briefly contemplating the essay, due
to its size and meticulous topic. However, as one jouneys himself and
offers a chance for what isn't banal and routine discussion, there can
only be an ascending rouse of amazement, or simply delight, to read
what has also become familliar in our minds; even more impressive would
be to acknowledge that what is due of our praise has been done with the
devotion eternally present in sleep's absence, at the fatigue of late
night's conditions. Would agree with el böthy, in the sense that you
have come to yield our thoughts' (regarding the concepts of musical
interaction) reflection, in a general and utter (almost, at the least)
perpective of how humans respond to different melodies, the vast
influences cast in psychological, social and, at some extent,
economical ambience. Would agree with everyone, believing it to be
well-written and captivatingly loquacious. Of course, you wrote it, so
I'm only repeating what you're innevitably aware of, thus, pardon me
for my useless post, but the work of such kind deserves laudative
reaction from its readers, and, well, having read it, I would have
thought to leave an echo of everyone else who's done so, through my
opinion. Thank you for your contribution to the forum and hope there will be more of the kind to be posted, hereafter. -------------  |
Posted By: Bob Greece
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 10:55
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That was a lot of work! It must have taken you ages.
I agree with most of it except that I wouldn't say that formulaic music is necessarily bad. Even though most of what I listen to is proggy, I still enjoy listening to some standard pop and metal tracks that I first listened to more than 20 years ago. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/BobGreece/?chartstyle=basicrt10"> 
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Posted By: Frasse
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 11:01
I guess choreography and dance numbers can be extentions of the music too. Just because it isn't prog it doesn't mean that they use other art forms in their show as substitutes and just pecause it's prog it doesn't mean they use other art forms as "an extension" in their shows. There's probably as many pop band whish doesn't use anything else than music in their shows as there is prog bands not using anything else. It matters more how big the band are, not what genre of pop music they play, when it comes to using choreography or light shows etc. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 11:03
I would even go further by saying that a vast majority of today's prog is formulaic: they keep on producing their so-called off the beaten path music on a canvas that is now worn down to the seams. They keep on getting inspired by the same old type of music (I'm being polite here and avoiding the copying or plagiarizing bits) making most of prog some kind of formulaic music. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Empathy
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 11:10
Ozric Tentacles (who just played NEARfest '06) actually has quite an elaborate light show, as well as video projections. But, I'll agree that in prog, visuals are most often an enhancement to the overall experience, rather than a distraction. ------------- Pure Brilliance:
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Posted By: RoyalJelly
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 11:34
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I agree with much of the essay, but not the implication at the beginning that Progressive was something opposed to "accessible" music. I don't think the early prog musicians were necessarily trying to get away from what was accessible, but rather to expand the boundaries of what people were open to. At the time, it seemed possible to open the market to a broader concept of pop music.
Consider this quote from Eric Tamm's book on Robert Fripp:
"The multiplicity of levels evident in Beatles music continued to be an ideal that haunted Fripp in composing Lizard, even if he wasn't interested in copying the Beatles' style per se. "The only thing that worries me," he said, "is that perhaps it [Lizard] won't be given enough of a chance. We've made it so that the 24th time things'll really begin to go Zap. At the same time, when the album starts it should really hit you, so that you'll think perhaps there's something worth getting into." The problem here - I said something like this already - is that the Beatles managed to make their music likeable and infectious and seductive and entrancing on the first hearing; by the twenty-fourth hearing you were into the subtleties, but you listened to it twenty-four times because you wanted to."
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Posted By: glass house
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 11:35
It took me two cigarettes to read it  . Interesting essay.
I agree with this comment written by Sean Trane :
I would even go further by saying that a vast majority of today's prog is formulaic: they keep on producing their so-called off the beaten path music on a canvas that is now worn down to the seams. They keep on getting inspired by the same old type of music (I'm being polite here and avoiding the copying or plagiarizing bits) making most of prog some kind of formulaic music.
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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 11:45
Great Essay. I Just wanted to touch on a couple of things. I've read a couple of your offerings, and I find them very intriguing. Keep it up. If it's something you really enjoy, I higly reccomend persuing it further. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Frasse
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 11:47
Well said. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 11:48
Well thank you, m'lad
your enveloppe with the unmarked bills is coming up by post
 ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: N Ellingworth
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 11:49
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That was a very interesting read, thanks.
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Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 11:50
There are some that would argue that OT are a jam band too. They have a much larger audience because of that and hence can afford a lot more. -------------
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: Frasse
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 11:57
What do you base that on? Prejudices? I guess the average American Idol watchers would be quite angry if you'd say that in front of them. Imho, I've seen quite a lot of people on this forum not really showing their intelligence. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 12:06
yeah I agree that there are some very presumptuous progheads thinking they are superior to others on the sole basis of their elitist music tastes.
And generally those presumpteous progheads are into relatively simple forms of prog. Meaning they do not appreciate RIO and others.............
I happen to disagree with quite a few points in this essay (roughly 40%) , even if I know where the author wants to go, he takes an elitist road I do not like.
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Aspiring hope
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 12:12
I think he bases himself on his own experience or theorical conceptions, rather than prejudice alone. Don't know about American Idol, but I too have been given the impression that those listening to prog, in general, are more capable of discerning quality in music, since, in theory, prog isn't as stark or accessible as your average pop and mainstream songs, thus more arduous to "dismantle" and analize to understanding. Of course, there is no monolithic axiom that confirms it unquestionably, but, like I think he was trying to say, there is, unfortunately, a majority of cases (personal or collectively known) that follow that line of thought. Sad, but true. ------------- |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 12:22
Thank you for that. This was precisely my point. I knew that saying this might cause some problems, but it is a generaliztion. Of course, this is by no means an absolute fact. But, I do believe there is something to it. Just compare the average discussions we have here, to you your everyday interactions. Look at this essay. This is not the average, shooting the breeze, water cooler, discourse. I know it is not a nice thing to say, and it does sound pompous. Believe me when I say that I did not make these comments with any feelings of superiority. It is an observation, nothing more. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 12:28
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^^^^^^^^^
I do agree that generally the progheads have a higher music analytical skill than other fans of different style.... sort of anyway
But stating such an observation (certainly no fact) is irritating at best ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Frasse
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 12:45
I've heard something about the seven intelligences, one of them is musical intelligence. For me, being able to write a good song is to be musically intelligent. As well as a million selling pop song where you have to follow a lot of rules or a wonderfull prog-epic whith no rules. Mush of what is said in this thread seems to point at prog fans being musically smarter than pop fans. I don't know, I can't prove neither that or the opposite. That doesn't mean that prog fans are any more logical or social, or whatever the other 6 intelligeces where, than any other people. (I'm not smart enough to remember all the seven intelligences) I don't like the elitist approash taken by some. But I guess that's an essential part of being a community. |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 13:03
I don't think it is necessarily elitist to notice that there does seem to be a higher concentration of itelligence within a certain community. It is not a prerequisite for enjoying prog, it just seems to attract people who are more adept at complex, and abstract, thinking. That also does not mean that intelligent people do not enjoy other forms of music. However, does "American Idol' (to use my previous example) really require any high level functioning of the brain (this is applicaple to anybody, of any IQ level)? That is why it is so popular. It's just simple entertainment. Oh, and I should also add that Frasse have given a very well thought out, and intelligent, counterpoint to my statements. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Empathy
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 13:18
True, some consider them a jam band, to which I generally counter that all of their songs have consistently repeatable stuctures, with generally very few extended improvisations.  ------------- Pure Brilliance:
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Posted By: Aspiring hope
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 13:18
I understand your perspective (or so I think), but the argument here is defining the limits to theory, and, whereas it's not absolutely confirmed (assuming there are better ways to use time, other than proclaiming a portion of reality with little use to society) that people who devote their ears to prog are more intelligent (in the field of music), we can only account for that system through what we gain as data, from today's society. I, for one, do not take Man Overboard's opinion as a clear marking of elitism, as he doesn't openly assure it to be true, seeming to me that the speech itself is reserved to the majority of factors his own subjectivity is able to lay out; wouldn't find this to be entirely concrete, transcending more than speculative perspective, since there are prog fans that know less, more and/or as much of music (in its history and mechanisms) as the non-prog lovers - I for example, am too unripe in the subject, but it was when I started to take further interest in prog that a need to analize the music heard came; also, I know some people who prefer the non-prog genres and still understand and appreciate well elaborate music. It's never pleasant to draw a line to separate what shouldn't be considered factions, but, objectively, there is a difference and when you hear people "on the other side" comment openly with an assured ease that the drums are the easiest instrument to play, when the best he listens to is AC/DC and the most popular powermetal bands, you tend to develop some frustration towards the influence such bands yield to their audience. Sorry for bothering with this whole text, just trying to alleviate the mood here, by attempting to justify what seems to offend some, and handing my own opinion, as well. ------------- |
Posted By: Frasse
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 13:26
Well, the participants of American Idol can't be that brilliant, Muahahahaha I think you hit something important when you say it's [American Idol] just simple entertainment. You and I don't see prog as simple entertainment, do we?
Thanks, it was thought out (Or was it? Have to check what I wrote.). Now I don't want to think anymore today, if I respond anymore my answers will be stupid as hell  Plus, I'm starting to hate the word intelligent. I've used it too many times this afternoon and it's hard to spell. |
Posted By: Foxtrot
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 16:03
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Interesting read. I concur with the idea that people with musical inclinations are more likely to like progressive music. I know that my choice in listening has long been based on how difficult the music was. If I could play a song by ear in a few minutes, I lost interest in the piece. To me, what makes progressive music interesting is the effort put into the music by the artists. Because this music is more complicated, it may take several listens to grasp each piece, but by the same token, one can listen to it over and over and still get something out of it. I suppose it is like good literature or a fine automobile - the more work that went into it, the longer one can enjoy it.
On the subject of intelligence and music choice, I suggest that the issue is not the brains of the listener, but the willingness to search out 'good' music. I don't think the average person is stupid, but may not be willing to go to the effort to find or appreciate well-crafted works. Many folks may just want an enjoyable melody, or something with a beat in order to dance. People who prefer progressive music tend to want complexity, creativity, and virtuosity in their library, and will go to great lengths to find it (hence the fantastic nature of this place). The downside to this dichotomy is that progressive music had a popular heyday, long past, so it is sometimes difficult to find modern artists creating music that we enjoy (since the major labels consider it all but dead), but on the bright side, there are plenty of artists we are finding because of this forum - and I for one have found plenty of great albums in the discount bin at fabulous prices because of the lack of popular demand. Thanks to this place, I found IQ, Pendragon and Shaun Guerin - and I am sure I will find more.
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 17:00
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Dear Dr Asp Hope,
My girlfriend knows next to nothing about music and thart does not stop her from liking Genesis or Fairport Convention as well as Celine Dion >> do you think she has lapse of dumbness , doctor??? or does she suffer from momentaneous loss of brilliance and reason and regresses deeply once she hears music that she loves without any distinction of the respective merits of the different songs?
do you not see that people of American Idol simply do not accord any importance in the seriousness of the music they listen , simply because they do not give a hoot that Genesis' Turn It Off Again
is in 13/8??? >>> maybe we are the sad excuses in his mind> Does the fact that he does not enjoy Henry Cow make him a twit for the rest of his life?THINK ABOUT IT !!!!
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 19:12
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I'm pleasantly surprised at how much conversation this has generated... I figured it'd be like most of my posts and get 2 replies, one of which would be me. :P
------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Posted By: Minimalist777
Date Posted: July 19 2006 at 22:12
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Great essay Man Overboard! I greatly enjoyed reading it! I must say that every prog fan I know is very intelligent, the type who read great works of literature for fun, while our peers are reading mystery/thriller novels or other simpler books. Not that every smart person I have met is into prog, not by a long shot! ------------- WWOSD? What Would OliverStoned Do? |
Posted By: Australian
Date Posted: July 20 2006 at 03:28
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I have argued many of these facts to my friends/family but none of them listen to me. A very true essay. ------------- 
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Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: July 20 2006 at 04:18
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Now we know what to do if we cannot sleep: write an essay !
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Posted By: Hierophant
Date Posted: July 20 2006 at 04:21
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Here are some interesting essays by Sir Millard Mulch (included in archives) about the music industry and some errr... "other stuff" if you're bored out of your mind http://sirmillardmulch.com/writings.php - http://sirmillardmulch.com/writings.php -------------
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 20 2006 at 04:23
Just to say that If I do not azgree with roughly 40% of what you say in it does not mean I did not enjoy reading it >>> I also agree with the other 60% of it ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Aspiring hope
Date Posted: July 20 2006 at 11:50
First of all, thank you for refering to me as "Dr", even though that's not really appropriate and the sarcasm probably implies I'm a pretentious, know-it-all, arrogant self-proclaimed pseudo-intellectual, as a lot of people most likely share the same view. As I said, I'm not relating (or not intending to relate) people's whole cerebral capacity with their interpretation of music - apologize if so was understood. Thus, of course your girlfriend doesn't suffer from momentaneous loss of brilliance, nor will anyone do so, when taking a listen to simplistic songs, because the human mind is more complex than what that ridiculous possibility hints for; infact, one who is already enlightened in the musical field, can listen to such tracks and remain the same, in whatever level he/she has defined. What you usefully point out, though, is the presence of one's taste in appreciating music, which doesn't necessarily rely on its quality, but how it affects the listenerer primarly; acknowledging the varieties of personalities, amongst the vastly different people, it's obvious one can enjoy whatever sort of melody is listened to, without concretely evaluate it, be it at whatever level there is. Take, for instance the so called golden era: perhaps, many of those listening to high quality bands ignored how great it was, but that never stopped anyone from loving what was heard, too. I think the point here, though, was mentioning that a lot of people, nowadays, do not care over what is presented to them and simply resort to what they feel about what they hear, as an outer layer of sound, to judge what artists work on - not a necessary ailment and flaw of greater importance than what some may want to see as (quite positive, in a way), but nevertheless sad, because there is always a side of us that would wish to have more people to converse about music with, and many take a misguided perspective of what you see, as well. Sometimes one feels subjectivity is what keeps the industry flowing, not the spirit or "truth". Again, sorry for the misunderstanding there, don't know if this was any more clarifying than the last, but I'll hope so. ------------- |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 20 2006 at 12:12
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Aspiring hope
Date Posted: July 20 2006 at 14:08
Ok, someone is bound to come down to Portugal to shoot me for occupying this much space in the thread, but just wanted to thank for being understanding, towards the point I was trying to make. Don't think our opinions are too different either, in the sense that's it not how much a person knows about music (or any other form of culture and intelligence) that'll abruptly have them elevated to a status of superiority. It'll be useless in your professional life (unless you choose it as a profession), as surely writing on your CV that you like Yes or Led Zeppelin and that you can easily discern how great a band can be, won't impress your boss (unless he's a musician). There are girls in my class loving Avril Lavigne and some are addictive to emo, but, no matter how bad those bands are objectively and how blind to see it they are, it's not so important - taste reveals personality, if anything -, and while they're different than me on that subject, they have much more possibilities of becoming successful in life. Infact, considering the younger progheads like me may still be in highschool, they don't have as much achievements to show for to act superior towards any other people - not calling anyone a loser here -, but, yeah, as it's sad to see some reject your music because they don't understand it, it's equally disturbing to find others acting lofty just because they listen to something better...well, it's disturbing to find people lofty about anything, really...except, perhaps, Mourinho, from Chelsea  .
It's important to realize that if you don't enjoy yourself listening to
good music (prog or not), then there's not much to be proud about
listening to it, if not for recognising quality regardless of your
opinion, also, heard Chic (I think, if you're not talking about someone
else), in the Dazed and Confused cd featuring Jimmy Page and a lot of
great guitarists - sorry, don't know the exact designation - and I like
it very much, at first, regardless of whether or not it's genius
songwriting. Ok, I stretched this too much just to say I agree with you
at a good extent, and you defend valid points that one mustn't yet
forget, in these discussions. Also, thanks for being comprehensive and
a good sport about all of this, and sorry for all these troublesome
posts (this will be the last on this thread, I promise).------------- |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: July 20 2006 at 16:57
I've corresponded with Sir Millard Mulch on MySpace and he once cited a BBC artical I sent him on one of his bulletins, he's a cool guy. I must try and get his recent album, as well as The Deconstruction of Yasmin Bleeth (I think that's the title). I think it could be my type of thing! -------------
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