Tool overtakes DT on Top List
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Music Lounge
Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=26684
Printed Date: August 13 2025 at 22:38
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Topic: Tool overtakes DT on Top List
Posted By: OpethGuitarist
Subject: Tool overtakes DT on Top List
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 03:33
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http://www.progarchives.com/top-prog-albums.asp?style_id=19 your thoughts? it's about time we had something else up there, i'll stray from commenting on the albums here, but you can certainly read my reviews. ------------- back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums |
Replies:
Posted By: dAJaro
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 04:11
it is just because 9% of the reviews scream "overrated!" and give an unfair rating of one star. I hope for a feature to rate a review thus increasing or decreasing the weight of a review in the final score of an album. (of course there would be people abusing this... but we already have those anyway) some people simply cant rate the albums according to the guidelines of this site. =/ maybe i should listen to that tool album (even though all tool songs I heard sounded boring to me) |
Posted By: pirkka
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 04:29
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I would not be sad if metal was completely banned from this site. It does not belong to prog anyway. Prog is complex and musically challneging usually esthetically rewarding whereas metal is simple straight forward music for people less musically educated or cultivated. I'm afraid that, as punk killed music in the eighties, metal will do it in our time.
Pirkka
Ps. Don't say that you stupid old fart, you don't know...I do know... I do have listened metal and I do own metal albums from Gamma Ray, Tool, Opeth, Deadsoul Tribe, Elegy, Hawkwind, Finntroll, Ensiferum even Lordi ... and Metallica (which is great) and from the very beginning Black Sabbath (I was an angry young man when Ozzie started it all).
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Posted By: xtopher
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 04:57
Well... this seems a little unfair, don't you think? I mean, what would you call metal that is "complex, musically challenging, and aesthetically rewarding"? Does that not represent your definition of prog, in your own words? I would hope, as I consider myself a fan of prog metal, that prog metal would be the manifestation of metal that is NOT meant for people who are "less musically educated or cultivated." I mean, I dunno... just a thought. Why do you get to be the judge of who has sophisticated musical taste? Perhaps Progarchives would benefit from starting a sister site featuring only progmetal, but until this day comes, prog metal is here on this site to stay. Anyway, getting back to the thread... This is upsetting. I am familiar with quite a few of the "Prog Metal 20 Key Albums" and I am scratching my head in wonder upon reaction that Lateralus is on top. I mean... I just don't get it... I just can't get into this album. It seems amelodic and repetitive with its rhythms; it's just kind of boring to me. What am I missing here folks?!! Now, while Scenes isn't my favorite DT album (Images and Words, 6DoIT, and Train of Thought are their finest, in my opinion), it's much more worthy than Lateralus. But the DT-haters are out there in full force, ready to give their own two cents about how bad prog metal's most prominent band is! It's a tired act, folks... |
pirkka wrote:Posted By: erlenst
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 05:12
You stupid old fart. |
Posted By: xtopher
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 05:22
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Posted By: Fusionman
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 05:28
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While I can understand concern in Lateralus taking Scenes From a Memory for best prog album. The bigger concern SHOULD be that either of them are in ranking for Top 5 even...
I mean...I am looking at it and seeing the same few bands over and over. I mean some bands release a lot of quality albums, sometimes 2 masterpieces...rarely 3...but not every album in a discography of a band is Top 100 material. Unless you think the genre is that limited. Truth is most progmetal bands are just another form of pop these days. ------------- 
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Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 05:48
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Well, Lateralus is clearly the better album out of the two.
-- Ivan ------------- sig |
Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 06:37
O:M 28th place and A pleasant shade of grey 37th 
this is sad... back to the topic, two different albums, both excellent 5 star works it doesn't matter which one is in the lead |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 06:40
It certainly isn't for grumpy old men with a tendency to generalise and simplify. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Posted By: Sathvik
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 07:58
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What I find far more distressing is Ghost Reveries rated higher than Still Life and Blackwater Park...oh the pain.
Tbh I don't think prog metal ratings on the whole are reliable on this site as there are far too many members who simply have to have their say about any form of progressive music with leanings towards metal, such as Pirkka ^. And as much of an increasing majority progressive metalheads may be, my general impression is that the older prog 'rock'ers are the loudest and most strictly opinionated. Edit: Apologies for the generalization, not intending to be offensive, simply objective. ------------- 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 08:04
my thoughts.... easy... Dream Theater sucks ahhahah ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 08:10
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<<I would not be sad if metal was completely banned from this site.>>
I somewhat agree and disagree with this statement. Sorry, but I see metal bands on here that simply don't belong in the progressive genre. Bands like Tool and Death are straight up metal. Where I disagree is Dream Theater. Some songs are definitely metal; however, the majority of their songs fit that progressive mold (i.e. "Octavarium", "Change Of Seasons", "Six Degrees", etc. Other bands that I have a tough time swallowing being here are Phish and Jefferson Airplane. One is a jam band. Period. The other is a hippy acid band. Period again. I think the spectrum is a bit too broad. E ------------- 
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 08:15
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It is good to see Kansas' Leftoverture at 79. Puzzled how any Tool album could overtake Rush's Hemispheres, however.
Another metal band that doesn't belong: Voivod. E -------------
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Posted By: YYZed
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 08:17
Good. Lateralus is prog-metal at its best. 
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Posted By: edible_buddha
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 08:28
Some metal is straight up metal... I mean if i saw Black Sabbath or Iron Maiden on this site, I would scream (despite the fact that i like both those bands). However, much metal do exhibit traits to which us proggers look for. The exploration of a musical theme, interplay that includes the relationship the instruments have with each other, and the exploring of new ground. Tool do this. Thou not concept albums, Aenema and, to a lesser extent, Lateralis, explore the subject of human thought. Their songs head in a definite direction and their music leads to a form of resolve which is seen in the context of their album...
Hang on, Im being a bit convoluted......
However, my admittently limited exposure of DT tells me that they are virtuostic musicians (not that there is anything wrong with that
 ) but use this over and above the 'telling' of the story that is the song.It depends on your tastes I suppose... but musical satisfaction is the reason y i have tool albums in my cd collection, and no DT.
I didnt know Jefferson Airplane are on prog archives... WTF.... I enjoy their music, but cant understand how their music relates to prog.... Oh well
Enjoy ------------- I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long. |
Posted By: pirkka
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 08:29
Sorry if I was too simple
. It's usually only possible way to keep a discussion group going to try to generalise and simplify things. And who are you to say that I am grumpy?  I don't say that I don't like metal. I really do.
I just don't count it as prog. I also like jazz and classical and they are not prog either. I was not being a judge or anything. I just said my opinion: would not be sad if...  It's always hard to talk to prejudiced youngsters who have only little experience of everything...
 Pirkka
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Posted By: edible_buddha
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 08:31
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Hey pirkka...
Love the beard... Hope its yours  ------------- I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long. |
Posted By: pirkka
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 08:36
I only have six DT albums and rank them from 2 (when a dream and day unite) to 5 stars. My favourites being Scenes from a Memory and Octavarium. To me DT is a progband with strong metal flavour. What I ment are metal bands that try to use proggish elements (to me Tool is such but I may be wrong). It don't automatically turn them into prog. For those I would not be sad if...
Pirkka
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Posted By: pirkka
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 08:38
Thanks!
It most certainly is.
Pirkka :-)>>>>¤<
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 08:40
Ok, so I'm a prejudiced youngster ... whatever! Would you mind if I asked you to explain how exactly I'm prejudiced?------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: pirkka
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 08:47
I am very sorry. This must be a sore pointy for you. As you are not young nor old and as you are honorary metal expert and all.
 I'm a young boy in an old body (with a lot of experience) and lovin' it!
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Posted By: Mr. Sanchez
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 09:15
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For me, It is hard to pick which of the two albums is better... I grew up listening to DT, and I enjoy their music very much. It took me a while to get into Tool, but when I eventually did, I loved them to bits! Tool are undoubtedly a great band. To say that Tool have 'overtaken' DT on the list is going a bit far... Sure, Lateralus IS the top of the list, but when you have a look at the whole list you will find that DT has 9 or so albums listed, whereas Tool have only 2. Interesting to know that someone else has an album on the top though ------------- It's Calling Me Back To My Home. |
Posted By: Mikerinos
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 09:37
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The site ranking doesn't matter to me, but I greatly prefer SFAM to Lateralus. ------------- 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 09:42
no sore point at all ... I'm just goofing around.  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 10:04
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well, the table turned again. ------------- 
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Posted By: Lyzarrd
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 10:31
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If Pirkka were to say this about prog metal two years ago, I would have disagreed with all my heart. But now, I'm almost in complete agreement here. Through the past few years I have discovered the greatness of an almost infinite amount of specatular progressive rock music that I almost cannot listen to prog metal anymore. There are such wonderful, beautiful masterpieces out there that it makes me sick to even think that any of the prog metal bands comes anywhere near close to that level of output. I used to love Dream Theater. Now, I almost always turn one of their albums off as soon as I put it on. Rudess is a terrible keyboardist, which makes most of their newer albums completely distasteful to me. Scenes from a Memory was once an album I could enjoy anytime I listened to it. Now, I can't stand the constant keyboard and guitar note masturbation. Its like this for every album I put on...except for the few with Kevin Moore, and even then, its a stretch. About the only band I can listen to at this time is Symphony X, since they seem to be fairly decent at mixing it up and having a 'classic' symphonic sound, though that could change at any moment. Anyways, If you show me a prog metal band that has incredible keyboard parts like that of Emerson or Banks, and amazing guitar work without the million notes a minute say, Hackett or Fripp. I find these two things really detract tremendously from the overall sound and feel of prog metal and make it more of a technical jamberoo....and it sounds that way (Mommy, look how fast I can play!). End rant, its too soon after waking up to be typing this sort of thing. ------------- Can you tell me where my country lies... |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 10:42
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^ It's funny ... in most classical pieces there is much more virtuosity than in Dream Theater songs. Yet DT get bashed for musical "w**kery', too many notes, not enough feeling etc.. Well, I guess that some people are simply not "musical" enough to be able to appreciate Prog Metal. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: pirkka
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 11:03
Like Waters said to young musicians: leave air in your music! Pause is an EXTREMELY important part of all good music. Metal music is usually a wall of loud sound that will finally kill anybody's interest and proggish metall just lasts longer! Aaaargh!
It is good for the metal boys to start taking steps towards musical world, and making proggish metal is such a step. But it does not mean that us, who already are in the musical world, should like or tolerate their effort.
Pirkka
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Posted By: JayDee
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 11:10
Amen ------------- 
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Posted By: Barla
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 12:00
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What ??
I see DT's "Metropolis pt2: Scenes from a Memory" on number 1, AND they deserve it, definitely !!
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Posted By: eugene
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 12:13
That's the phrase of the week.
------------- carefulwiththataxe |
Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 12:14
Do you realize how condescending you sound? If I recall correctly, most of Dream Theater's albums in some form or enother meet enough standards of prog's definitiion to be considered prog. I don't care if you dislike or even hate them, but you can't overgeneralize and say that progmetal is not actually progressive music. Granted, sometimes the guitarists can go a little overboard, but that is no reason to say that it cannot be progressive. (waiting for Teaflax to descend upon me with a fiery hail of rebuttal) ------------- 
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Posted By: OpethGuitarist
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 12:33
It seems to me like someone is a little ignorant, and when you don't understand something, you tend to not like it. Metal is not simplistic at all, in fact, metal is rather complicated, much more so than the genre of rock and more than pop or punk by far. Listen to Meshuggah, and really listen and understand what they are doing, and come back and tell me its simple music. Meshuggah uses the most odd and complex rythm patterns of any band out there, not simplisitic by any means. You are making blanket statements about an entire genre and that is really not fair. ------------- back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 12:37
There's plenty of breathing room in most PM, including the two albums which this thread is about. If you can't hear it, then I feel sorry for you.
Ok ... Prog Rock = Men, Prog Metal = boys. noted for future reference. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Yito
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 12:39
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"Metropolis pt2: Scenes from a Memory" have a very complex songs (to hear and to play)and in this album they combine all the rock styles with a new and brilliant combination of exotic chords and scales played with much feeling.
this album is powerful, is sensible, is tragic, is beautiful; is perfect.
I am a fan of Porcupine Tree, i like the experiment that they make, but come on "Metropolis pt2: Scenes from a Memory" are big words.
True prog, true metal, true rock, true music. ------------- Psalm 96 1 Sing to the LORD a new song; sing to the LORD, all the earth. |
Posted By: OpethGuitarist
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 12:42
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Also, you guys are skimming the surface of prog metal if the only bands you look to are Dream Theater, Symphony X, and Tool There are a lot of different bands that do a lot of different things. Unfortunately, due to the popularity of these bands, if you have a bad taste in your mouth after listening to them, you wont delve deep into the metal aspects of prog. I also am amazed not necessarily at the elitism here, but at the stubbornness. Maybe this site isn't for me. I am one who loves my music, but I am not stubborn enough to write everything off. ------------- back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums |
Posted By: MajesterX
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 12:52
That has to be one of the most close-minded and purely opinionated things I've heard you say. It's an opinion, you state is as fact. At this point Scenes is on top. Honestly I think the album that represents what Progressive Metal truly should be on top- Images & Words. This whole "omg tool is now better than DT!" thing is stupid. Lateralus just got down to 2nd because of a single 3 star rating. This site only shows the reviews of a few, and does not accurately show everyone's thoughts on both albums. If we polled every prog fan asking what is the best prog album, I don't think CTTE would come out on top. ------------- 
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Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 12:54
I had the same thoughts in my head when I joined; now look, I ended up as a full-time member and a part of active collaborators here. Just remember that no matter how far you go in arguments and explaining people that they are wrong, you still won't change the stereotypical perception of the people. You tell a person that there is more to Prog-Metal than DT and Tool, they nod their heads enlightened, after a few days you'll get a dozen of similar threads with samey views again.
To bother to explain the same thing once and all over again or not is the question, but I've given it up. Let's see how long your enthusiasm will last for.
-- Ivan ------------- sig |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 12:55
You're welcome to visit my website, where there are no pre-defined genre determinations. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: pirkka
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 12:56
You didn't read the thread, did you? Who says we are talking about DT. For me it is great prog with a strong metal flavour and several albums I rate 5!.
I was talkin about proggish METAL. A different cup of tea!
Pirkka
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 12:57
The problem is that a forum is not the appropriate place if you want to tell people how you feel about something "once and for all time". In a few days the thread will be gone ... few will remember, and new members join who don't even know that something has been discussed before. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: pirkka
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 12:59
I DO UNDERSTAND AND LIKE METAL!!!!!!! IT JUST IS NOT PROG!!!! I LIKE PROG FAR MORE! I'M WORRIED THAT THE GREAT QUALITIES OF MELODIC AND MUSICAL PROG ARE DROWNED BY METAL FLOOD! ok?
Pirkka
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Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 13:02
Forums are exactly for expressing opinions(well, mostly), it is no huge news that anyone who dares to voice his beliefs about the quality of music, which is why we're here by the way, does not state or intend to state a fact of some sort. I claim Lateralus to be by far the greatest of the two, another person will tell you it's the other way around. It's all matter of taste and I don't see why someone would make a fuss about it.
Another example from your post. You say I&W is the perfect representative of Prog-Metal. Whether or not you introduce it as your opinion or state a fact, according to your comprehension and knowledge of the genre, does NOT matter. There is no scientific number that proves that this or any other DT album is the most influential album to come out of Prog-Metal, although it is a common belief and there is nothing I can do about it. However, according to my knowledge and experience, I will tell you that a vast number of Prog-Metal bands(and knowing my duty here, I sampled quite a lot of PM bands)gets NO inspiration from Dream Theater and whose roots lies somewhere else.
-- Ivan ------------- sig |
Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 13:04
True, that's the exact reason. You can influence the public opinion by writing a lot of reviews explaining why you feel your certain way or participate in forum activity, repeating the same thing over and over... It takes a lot of time and patience, it just all comes down to whether or not you have the time and patience necessary for that kind of business.
-- Ivan ------------- sig |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 13:07
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^ I'll probably address this problem on my website: You'll be able to write comments for all the musical attributes (Genres, Progressiveness, Virtuosity etc.).
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 15:43
I am older, and have a bit of experience. However, I would never think that I could not learn from a younger person. It is these types of statements that make people take offense, and makes you seem grumpy. I still have yet to hear any prog metal that I care to listen to. I don't condemn you guys for liking it, but I do have trouble considering it very prog-like. I too like some metal. Black Sabbath is one of my favorites, and I hear more prog elements in their music than any of the newer bands I have heard. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: pirkka
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 16:04
Why did you take away my smileys? If you really have experience then you should know that now you have put me in bad light! We were having a good conversation with positive humour. Don't misinterpret my messages. Now I am a bit annoyed.
Pirkka
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Posted By: akin
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 16:07
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Bah, these fights kill the productive discussion. Before it was prog-metal x old-prog. Now it is prog-metal x metal. Anyway, in my opinion it is sad that Tool is so high regarded over the other prog metal bands because it is the band more linked to the popular nu-metal movement, that has nothing to do with progressive rock. But after I have read the reviews of 10,000 days few days after its release, I undestood everything. Reviews were like: " I bought this album yesterday and it´s a complete masterpiece", "I bought this album today, listened till the track 7 and it surely deserves 5 stars, because Tool is fantastic", "I will buy this album tomorrow, but I know that it will deserve five stars, because it is Tool, so I´m reviewing it now". DT had many reviews like this one, but I think since there are many symphonic prog, art-rock and other genres fans that listen to DT and review DT (and many DT haters that give 1 star without knowing about the existence of the album), the result is nearer than the overall taste than with Tool, which many symphonic prog and art-rock fans simply ignore. It will take some time till the things get in place again (or Tool earn a "legion of haters" or other people get into Tool´s music). that is what I think. |
Posted By: OpethGuitarist
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 16:21
Yea, exactly, you have the same thing with a lot of bands. Take The Mars Volta for instance. I am not writing a review on their new album for probably another two months. However, a lot of people listen to one spin, and then rate it a masterpiece or garbage. That is no way to go about reviewing something. You may rate it a masterpiece today and then hate it 6 months from now. I think more people need to really understand what they are rating. I mean, I've listened to Still Life by Opeth for about 3/4 years now, so I understand almost every aspect of the music and what it offers, and I can give a more accurate rating of it. I call it a masterpiece. In the same manner, I have had Falling Into Infitiny - Dream Theater, for a long time as well. My 1 star rating holds over years of having the album, not because I listened to it yesterday. ------------- back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums |
Posted By: Proghat
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 16:32
| I'm actually really starting to hate seeing Metal on this site. I don't think it belongs on here. I like Dream Theater, Angra, Opeth, Death, Shadow Gallery, Pain of Salvation, Devin Townsend, Porcupine Tree, etc. -- but if I'm in a "PROG" mood, I don't listen to these bands. That's because prog metal is a subgenre of Metal -- not Prog. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 16:36
*sighs* ... what happened to all the tolerance in the world? BTW: Why are Porcupine Tree in that list? ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: YYZed
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 18:03
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Well, thanks to this post, Lateralus has dropped .03 points within 8 hours. I do not care that it dropped that many points or that is below SFAM (I like that album a lot, too!), I care that the ratings were just made by DT fanboys abusing the site's rating system. That's not why it's here. It's here to allow members to express their honest opinions of a piece of music they have listened to. Even if you don't like it, is it really worth 1 star? -------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 18:06
hahah.. good one Mike... I love the .... 'if you don't appreciate.. you're not smart or knowledgeable enough' card... that works every time doesn't it ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: AtLossForWords
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 18:20
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*pouts around*
*slaps head*
*bitches and moans*
*complains*
Needless to see it's likely my reputation preceeds me, and I'm upset about this.
I don't think Lateralus or Scenes From a Memory are the top album from either band. Head to head, I think Scenes From a Memory easily takes Lateralus to the slaughterhouse.
Here's why:
On a song by song basis, Scenes wins easily. Lateralus starts out with a great first half, but after "Ticks and Leeches", the album almost dies. I don't care for the "Disposition", "Triad", "Refelction", and "Faaip de Oiad" epic. It just bores me, especially the osinato riff in "Triad". There is just so much more they could have done with this. Whenever I listen to Lateralus, I think of how great this album could have been instead of how good it really is. Lateralus is a three star album in my opinion. Aenima is easily a five star album.
Scenes From a Memory is undisputedly the crowning jewel of Progressive Metal. I don't think any album will ever have the impact it had. I would be very interested to hear a good arguement how Lateralus could have impacted the genre more than Scenes From a Memory. Images and Words comes close in impact, but just look at how much the genre grew with the release of Scenes From a Memory in comparison to Lateralus. Scenes From a Memory almost singlehandedly saved Dream Theater's prog career after the discontent fans had for Falling Into Infinity. Dream Theater supported the album with a full performance on DVD with guests, Tool didn't do such a thing for Lateralus did they?
Dream Theater also does a better job of reaching out to their fans to help the genre, but by fans I'm talking most specifically about those in the musician's community. Mike Portnoy has been a star in Modern Drummer magazine, John Pettruci is currently a genre guru columnist in Guitar Player magazine, and even the soft spoken John Myung worked on columns regulary for Bass Player magazine's would shead. All of these apperances are only possible because of the success of Scenes From a Memory, it's Dream Theater's second best selling album other than Images and Words which sold gold back in '92.
Dream Theater has reached out in publications far more than Tool, and had a gold selling record with much less publicity than Tool has. Mike Portnoy commented on Tool's Lateralus on his website once. He said something like "Lateralus is one of my favorite releases this year, but I do wonder how a band in our genre gets so much press from a magazine like Rolling Stone when we don't." -------------  
"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls." |
Posted By: KoS
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 18:24
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Here's my opinion: I don't give a rats ass! Tool could be last and I wouldnt care. Tool and DT are very diffrent in every way. |
Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 18:55
OOOOohh, sorry about the misunderstanding. I was just trying to say that progmetal is a part of prog, which a looot of people on this site seem to have a problem with. And I too think that pauses in music are just as important as the notes played. Pink Floyd is one of my favorite bands, and you dont see them ever tearing up the fretboards at a thousand miles an hour. Again, I apologize and didn't mean to come off as attacking someone -------------
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Posted By: xtopher
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 19:06
Yes! Agreed! I&W really should be on top. But it isn't, and it probably never will be. People are entitled to their opinions. I just hope people would have better sense than to give a Tool album 5 stars and a DT album 1 star without really devoting any time or contemplation or feeling into the music. -------------
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Posted By: Forgotten Son
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 19:11
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pirkka, I'd be interested to here what bands you consider Prog with metal influences and vice versa. |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 20:49
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*Sighs*
Yet another discussion about a bands place on a list(incredible to me that it is SO important to some people)that quickly degenrates. Keep it civil please. And Pirrka...not all people here who are into metal are young OR immature.I would advise getting to know some people on the forum first before you form opinions like that and state them publicly,thereby alienating many members here. -------------  |
Posted By: akin
Date Posted: July 29 2006 at 22:08
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Complaining about prog metal is a bit immature, I think. I don´t like
great part of the considered prog metal bands and I don´t find the
major part progressivel. But I know that there are many good bands
listed as prog metal that deserves the prog classification (DT, Ayreon, Queensriche, for example). I recently have bought three prog metal cds just because they were cheap and I found them interesting. I didn´t know any of the bands before, but I relied on the reviews made by the site and I liked them. By the way, what I think is generating problems is that the decision of what is prog and what isn´t is upsetting many prog fans. I have some friends that are prog fanatics like me. They would laugh if they saw that Mike Patton is considered progressive and Supertramp only prog-related. I don´t care for this anymore. As long as the site provides me the info I want, I keep on using it, enjoying it and even helping with the inclusion of artists, when I can. |
Posted By: OpethGuitarist
Date Posted: July 30 2006 at 00:15
Thank you for one of the most logical posts in this thread. I'm not going to sit here and complain about Krautrock, but I am also not going to sit and tell people it doesn't belong on the site. ------------- back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums |
Posted By: AtLossForWords
Date Posted: July 30 2006 at 00:27
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I hate discussions about how Progressive Metal isn't Progressive or isn't very progressive. What sickens me is that these statements are given respect and this terrible opinion is shared by other members of this site. I find this opinion sickening. I wish that more people would realize that different people enjoy progressive music in different ways.
I don't care for Avant Prog one bit, but I have never said anything of the sort of it not being progressive. Would I get any respect if I had such an opinion? No I wouldn't and I shouldn't.
What I notice about people who share this disgusting opinion is that they don't believe faster or heavier music can be progressive. The same people that share this opinion often listening to softer prog bands, even if they do like some metal, they don't acknowledge progressive metal bands to be prog. I have a few questions.
Since when did Zappa play very slow soft music? Last I knew Frank Zappa played very aggressive music. There are some very aggressive prog metal bands too.
Since when did Yes play controlled music on their proggier albums like Close to the Edge? Yes played just as much technique oriented music Dream Theater does.
When the Progressive Metal team adds a band that isn't as progressive as other Progressive Metal bands, I think people should hold their tounge, unless they understand the intricacies of Progressive Metal. These are Progressive Metal bands that we add. We're not adding Progressive Metal bands to Symphonic Prog, we are adding Progressive Metal bands to Progressive Metal. Tool is Progressive Metal, Dream Theater is Progressive Metal. These bands share common musical traits with Progressive Rock and Metal bands, that's why they are part of our database. It's pointless to say Tool isn't as Progressive as Yes so they shouldn't be added, cantalope aren't as juicy as oragnes but they are both fruits. Beer doesn't have as much alcohol as vodka, but they are both alochoholic bevarages.
The last I knew Dream Theater took a lot of influence from Yes and Rush, those bands are progressive aren't they. They take a lot of influence from Metallica too. That must mean they are influenced by Progressive Rock and Metal bands, that must mean they make Progressive Metal. -------------
"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls." |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: July 30 2006 at 01:00
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^^^ To me, it has nothing to do with liking them or not. I don't Like Marillion with Steve Hogarth, but it's progressive. There are bands that I love that some people want in here, but I don't consider them to be progressive (or progressive enough).
I think that sometimes the musicianship is mistaken for complex composition. When I listen to Dream theater, or Tool, I just don't think that the song srtuctures themselves are all that progressive. But, I will back up your love of of them any day of the week. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: AtLossForWords
Date Posted: July 30 2006 at 01:04
I didn't mean those bands specifically, I mean the style in general.
I think you would be quite suprised if you actually took the music and see how a Dream Theater song is structured especially the solo sections. I've studied three albums on bass, and it's quite interesting to see odd timed turn-arounds, dynamics, key changes, and their modulations fit into a song. If you can understand how difficult it is to play ongoing modulations they do in songs like "Metropolis Part I" or "Home", can you imagine just how difficult it is to write stuff like that? -------------
"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls." |
Posted By: Sathvik
Date Posted: July 30 2006 at 03:05
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I wouldn't say the same complexity music-wise (even though they do have some awesome basslines and complex drumming) Tool, lyrically, is way ahead of many of the prog rock (or metal) bands on PA. I'd give Floyd or VdGG perhaps an exception...but they are undoubtedly miles ahead of bands like Rush, Yes, Dream Theater...even Genesis I'd say. Agreed this might not be the defining factor of whats 'prog' or not, but it does count for something : ) -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 30 2006 at 04:39
Ok, that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. You should consult a professional musician because you obviously don't know too much about song structure ... Dream Theater may have a a very logical approach to song structure, and people may argue that they are not very original or even derivative (which is a subjective decision), but they're *very* far from standard.
Now that I couldn't care less about. You can't disrespect AND respect these bands (or their supporters) at the same time. Either you respect the opinion of Dream Theater supporters (avoiding the word "fan" here) - even if that implies admitting that you *may* be wrong about DT - or you don't. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: pirkka
Date Posted: July 30 2006 at 05:21
Hi, please don't jump into a conversation in the middle, read the whole thread, atleast the whole conversation. http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=1923&FID=3 - MikeEnRegalia whom I mentioned to be young is 30 something and it was A JOKE!
So please, try to treat discussions ethically correctly. Take them as whole, don't think that you can determine the truth from one separate sentence. OK?
Pirkka
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 30 2006 at 05:30
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The problem is not that I'm 31 years old and someone calls me a youngster - I have no problem with that regardless of whether that is meant to be a joke or whatever. The only problem I have with some of the posters here is: Disrespect for other opinions Think about it. You all are entitled to your own opinion, but once you speak about this opinion as if it was fact, you are disrespecting people who have contrary opinions. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: pirkka
Date Posted: July 30 2006 at 06:01
This is a good question and I appreceate your interest in my opinion. I first thought of trying to answer in depth but as I see that this discussion is going to a bad direction and people seem to want to misunderstand all that you say (they don't read all, just pick a word and twist it) i'll keep this short and then leave.
Infulences to prog from metal are IMO:
- hectic loud sound masses
- lack of pauses
- triple speed drumming
- cavetroll singing
These are OK when treated musically in a progressive composition. There are lots of bands that champion this: Ayreon, Dream Theater, Riverside to mention a couple. But then there are bands that do not champion so well the metallish elements whos music becomes less interesting: Magellan, Porcupine Tree, Spock's Beard, lots of InsideOut stuff. Don't misunderstand me. These are among my favourite bands but the occaissonal falling into bad metal is dissapointing to me.
Influences from prog to metal IMO:
- use of folk and ethnic melodies
- acoustical instruments or lyricism in intros
- progressive treatment of musical motif
These qualities make IMO metal better. Bands that I know to do this, and that I like, are: Opeth, Tool, Nightwish, Ensiferum, Finntroll, Elegy, Sinphonia, Deadsoul tribe... I have my Symphony X and Meshuggah still in post (I love to hear new music!)
To draw a line is difficult and always a subjective thing, that is: everyone must do it for him/herself. I like both musics but don't want them to mix too much because I want to keep prog (my idea of prog) alive and I am afraid that the hectic life will work for metals favour. I even think that The Mars Volta is kind a metal band. A completely new kind of an metal band: experimental and avantgarde metal.
And please don't (anybody) answer that if you do not understand you don't like bla bla bla. I do like. Period. If you (somebody) don't understand my writing please do not twist it around.
Couln't keep it so short after all...
Thanks. Pirkka
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Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: July 30 2006 at 06:10
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Pirkka, also try Pain of Salvation, if you haven't already. They are the proggiest metal band I know of and infact, I find them borderline metal at times. If any prog-metal band deserves to be here, it's Pain of Salvation.
-------------   
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Posted By: pirkka
Date Posted: July 30 2006 at 06:46
Thanks! Ordered The Perfect Element Vol.1 and Entropia to start with.
Pirkka
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Posted By: Mr. Sanchez
Date Posted: July 30 2006 at 07:09
I couldn't agree more. I have been reading this thread and found that alot (not all) of what people say is just mindless crap and trashing other peoples opinions... I am no expert in prog, I don't intend to become one...But all I want to do is enjoy and understand the music I listen to. Alot of people are scared to voice their opinions because they can clearly see that other people use this forum to sit there and tell them how wrong they are. Opinions are never wrong...I don't understand how people think that their opinion should be right. You cannot expect other people to respect what you have to say if you sit there and badmouth what other people think. What I find amusing, is how people can say how wan*ey Dream Theater are... Dream Theater are a group full of amazing musicians with enormous talent, if you are so skilled...why not show everyone? I find it amazing how tight they can keep their music, changing not only time signatures, but also key changes and rhythms so fluently and so cleanly. They level of songwriting and Ideas they are at impresses me immensely. SFAM is undoubtedly one of the best DT albums (and Prog Metal) albums written so far...I have listened to this album so many times ever since it was released, and I am NEVER sick of it. The very first DT album I heard was Falling Into Infinity....I was 10 years old and I LOVED it. Almost everyone on PA thinks that Falling Into Infinity is an album that should be thought of as trash...thats all well and good, but I enjoy it and thats all that matters to me. On the other hand... It took me about a year of casual listening to get into Tool, Fourty Six and Two being the only song I liked. When I eventually got into Tool, I began to realise how great the band was, in fact I loved them. They write a very different style to that of DT, and that is why I like them. Tool and a very different band, using lost of ambient sort of sounds and slow/quiet sections in their songs which is quite easy listening. This is very different to the fast paced, all-band-member solos of DT, and that is why I love Tool. IMO, Aenima is a better album than Lateralus, but thats my problem, no-one elses. I am 16 years old, and I love prog music, most people at my age enjoy Punk or Rap, I consider myself lucky to be tuning into Progressive Music, and I don't take it for granted. - Mr. Sanchez ------------- It's Calling Me Back To My Home. |
Posted By: Detric
Date Posted: July 30 2006 at 08:22
| Good post Sanchez! |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: July 30 2006 at 09:01
Easy there Mike. Although I do know a little bit about music, the first part was just my opinion, and should be taken for what it is. I also don't believe I showed any disrespect. I was talking about progressive aspect, not quality. It is possble to not care for a particular style, and still respect it. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 30 2006 at 09:26
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^ I just don't understand how anyone could think that DT song structures are not progressive. I know - above I said that we should respect each other's opinions. But if an opinion is factually wrong (can be disproven by facts) then I can't see what's wrong with saying so. If you really think that DT song strucutres are not progressive, please give me an example ... I'll gladly try to understand your point of view! ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Mr. Sanchez
Date Posted: July 30 2006 at 09:43
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This seems to have turned into another DT thread...again. I don't think that many people, if any, could explain how DT's song structures aren't progressive. I would gladly be open to hearing otherwise though. ------------- It's Calling Me Back To My Home. |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: July 30 2006 at 11:13
Well I hope you enjoy them after my recommendation. Entropia is an excellent album. I don't have The Perfect Element Volume 1 yet, however. If you like them, I recommend Remedy Lane as well. They're quite diverse. BE is their most difficult to get into apparently and I've yet to hear it, so it'll be interesting to see what I think of it. -------------
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Posted By: OpethGuitarist
Date Posted: July 30 2006 at 15:01
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Lets take the Riff at the end of Metropolis Part 1 right before the last verse If that's not a showcase of something progressive and pushing the boundaries, then maybe I'm completely lost and should start listening to Mainstream Punk or something. ------------- back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums |
Posted By: Gamemako
Date Posted: July 30 2006 at 17:09
Absolutely, utterly, undeniably true. I have a personal habit of refusing to pass off anything without listening to it twice. Not even rap or death metal. It is entirely impossible to determine the intricacies of any work, no matter how simple, without tasting it twice. If I have any intention of giving an objective review, I put in at least 4 listens over two weeks. The only CD I have reviewed on Progarchives recieved a 4/5 stars after listening for a month. I still listen to the album on occasion. As for BE, I find it to be an excellent album, but speaking of Pain of Salvation's diverse styles, BE is their showcase. Walk in without an open mind and you'll never listen again. Every song has its place, and every style contributes to the themes of the album. Granted, there are a few tracks on there I didn't particularly enjoy, but they are parts of the whole that are absolutely essential. BE is not a particularly metal endeavor, and their use of highly-distorted, chunky guitar sounds is usually accompanied by a minor key and distorted, strained vocals (case in point -- Lilium Cruentus, which also happens to be one of my favorite tracks on the album :)). I would liken BE to Nabokov's Lolita -- enormously complex and precise, though not necessarily enjoyable at times. |
Posted By: AtLossForWords
Date Posted: July 30 2006 at 17:31
I myself used examples how Dream Theater uses different turnaround times, modulations, and signature changes to create a progressive structure to their music. This stuff doesn't happen by accident. I am just fine when people tell me they don't enjoy Dream Theater, but very rarely do I respect a disrespectful claim that Dream Theater doesn't make progressive music. -------------
"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls." |
Posted By: eugene
Date Posted: July 30 2006 at 17:36
First of all I fully agree with Geck0's general view on PoS - this is the best prog band using metal stylistics from the whole bunch described as "prog-metal" here.
As to their albums (I have all of them) - I like Entropia the least; BE is probably the second best (most complex and variable) after "12:5", which is my absolutely favourite.
I would definitely recommend you to get DVD of BE - apart from music, quality of which is almost as good as of studio CD, you also get quite of a show there.
And, of course get yourself "12:5" - this is acoustic live versions of older songs and it's absolutely bloody brilliant - and practically no metal sound in it.
Remedy Lane is the third best for me, and the remaining albums are all very good IMO.
------------- carefulwiththataxe |
Posted By: Proghat
Date Posted: July 30 2006 at 19:47
I have plenty of tolerance, but there are sometimes whne I feel like grouping the Prog Metal guys with the other Prog guys just causes problems. Also, the reason I listed PT is... Well, listen to Wedding Nails. |
Posted By: Mr. Sanchez
Date Posted: July 30 2006 at 22:52
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But that is only one PT song of many... Surely they cannot be categorised differently because of only one song?------------- It's Calling Me Back To My Home. |
Posted By: akin
Date Posted: July 31 2006 at 06:26
| I think this topic had changed its original discussion and has already had enough. |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: August 01 2006 at 14:20
Like you, I got into DT before Tool, although I had heard Tool before DT. Weird, huh? Reason being, I only heard Sober and Prison Sex. I thought they were simply bizarre. But one day I heard Eulogy on the radio. Well, that's all she wrote. I find both bands great, but Tool really as a "je ne sais quoi". Tool remains to me a mystery while DT is quite defined, at least in my book. |
Posted By: patomtz
Date Posted: August 01 2006 at 14:43
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I really prefer SFAM, and I think they really deserve it ------------- I still can't get how Dream Theater music is created by humans Dream Theater in Monterrey, Mexico 03.03.06 Unforgettable 
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Posted By: memowakeman
Date Posted: August 05 2006 at 00:59
So then The Mars Volta will overtake them all...
 ------------- Follow me on twitter @memowakeman |