Carl Palmer as a drummer?
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Topic: Carl Palmer as a drummer?
Posted By: spleenache
Subject: Carl Palmer as a drummer?
Date Posted: December 26 2006 at 19:52
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I have seen ELP in concert several times. I have always wandered about Carl Palmer's technical drumming skills. Greg was in control of the stage through his singing. Keith… well he was all over the place with his act and incredible pile of electronics. It looked like Carl was surrounding himself with the most outrageous drum set one could ever imagine just to keep up with the other two. During the spring of 1974 I was in I also had a chance to see drummers like Bill Bruford both in Yes and King Crimson. The guy had a one of the smallest drum kits but boy could he ever play. |
Replies:
Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: December 26 2006 at 20:15
Well first of all...Bruford is like the best think behind the kit But I always thought, and actually know, that Palmer is one of the very best. I think his drumming hability is unquestionably good, make that excellent! Yet...you might be right about the whole "show" thing. Well, ELP had too much show maybe...I mean, did you see how Lake dressed???  So, yes you might be right about that...I remeber seeing the Isle of Whight perfomance of them and Palmer had a normal kit and he plyed excellent with it... so the monstruo kit must have been cause he must have felt like he didnt get much attention ...well, I kinda understand that if you have that hyperactive keyboards virtoso and lake trying to show as much chest hair as possible  ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: December 26 2006 at 20:24
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Better than "Carl Palmer as Obi Wan Kenobi" I guess. ------------- ¡Beware of the Bee! |
Posted By: Masque
Date Posted: December 26 2006 at 20:40
Palmer is a great drummer  ------------- |
Posted By: Nowhere Man
Date Posted: December 26 2006 at 20:42
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I imagine he was just trying to be fancy.
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Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: December 26 2006 at 20:46
| Carl Palmer is a very skilled drummer, and from listening to recordings, I think I'll be bold enough to say he's better than Bill Bruford! |
Posted By: spleenache
Date Posted: December 26 2006 at 20:52
Respectfully I disagree. Bruford demonstrated his skills and ability to drum in diversely different environments to this day. If you get a chance please listen one of Brufords recent Earthworks recordings. He now became one of the most respected jazz drummers of our time.
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Sasquamo wrote:Posted By: rushaholic
Date Posted: December 26 2006 at 20:59
Yeah, he is a good drummer but a far cry from Bruford. |
Posted By: Father Tiresias
Date Posted: December 26 2006 at 21:00
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Palmer is one of the bests drummers I've heard. you would not find this style of drumming in early 70's so easily. fast, agressive and technical. Bruford was sort of technical and experimental. but i'd choose Bruford over Palmer |
Posted By: akiko
Date Posted: December 26 2006 at 21:11
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CP is one of the most influential prog drummers ever. Keep in mind that a big part of ELP concerts was showmanship (like setting organs on fire, etc). I remember Phil Ehart of Kansas having three bass drums I believe for the Vinyl Confessions tour, and me thinking, when did he grow a third leg? Also Alex Van Halen had three or four bass drums at one time. And they are both great drummers too. I guess sometimes people just get caught up on how cool things look and add stuff just for the visual factor. Nothing wrong with that. I have a cousin that has a VW Beetle engine mounted on the chassis of a Ferrari. Looks awesome but goes from 0 to 60 in about 30 minutes... |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: December 26 2006 at 21:13
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Palmer's drumming on Brain Salad Surgery is very good and the drumming is the best thing on Asia's first few releases. Definitely a very good drummer.
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: December 26 2006 at 21:20
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Audience is tough here... ------------- ¡Beware of the Bee! |
Posted By: spleenache
Date Posted: December 26 2006 at 21:21
Your cousin must be one cool doode
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Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: December 26 2006 at 21:29
I'm not quite sure what people see in Bill Bruford. I see a very good drummer, but I don't see anything that floors me and makes me wonder how he did that. I really start to wonder if maybe Bruford has an unfair advantage simply because he was in Yes and King Crimson, possibly the two most respected bands on this site. And I don't think I would call Bruford one of the most respected jazz drummers of our time. He's definitely the most respected drummer in jazz on this site, but in the real jazz world, I'm pretty sure he's not a very big name. |
Posted By: yesfan26
Date Posted: December 26 2006 at 21:33
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Carl Palmer is just awesome technically. In my opinion, Palmer absolutely demolishes Peart and Bruford. Peart is great and all, so is Bruford. But Peart is way too in depth and Bruford is a groover and doesn't like to solo really in the sense of Neil Peart mode. Carl Palmer brings agility and speed that Peart tries to bring but chokes with the indepth approach of a drum solo.
Bruford is the Stewart Copeland of prog
Peart is prog
Palmer is the Buddy Rich of prog!
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Posted By: dwill123
Date Posted: December 26 2006 at 21:45
| I like Bill Bruford a lot (and I mean a lot). But that said, he's no Carl Palmer who I consider to be one of the best (if not the best) rock drummer. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 26 2006 at 23:04
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A drummer develops his style according ro the environment in which he works, Carl palmer is a classical Power Trio drummer:
For example the Jazz drummers are normally much better with the cymbals and snares but weaker with the bass drum, look at Phil Collins, Peter Gabriel had to add extra bass drum in their first albums and live acts (Look at any Gabriel era photo and you'll see a bass drum before Peter Gabriel). Still Palmer is a top drummer compared with anybody.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: endlessepic
Date Posted: December 26 2006 at 23:10
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Bruford was a an awesome drummer, "Close To The Edge" alone should show you that, but as I was playing along (on drums) to the entire BSS album today it really hit home how innovative Palmer was. He is my personal fave, although im not going to get into a better then _____ debate, I do think he was one of the prog drummer kings. Every time I listen to Pirates I wonder how he managed to do incredibly difficult beats and still let it meet the framework of the song. His drum solos are fantastic and hes just overall incredible. As for show...who cares if his drum set is big, so is Neal Pearts set! He was from the 70's, thats the way things roll, it doesnt take away from his amazing ability. Palmer absolutely rocks! |
Posted By: eitandaniel
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 00:04
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well, carl used to be my favoutie technical drummer back when i started to listen to prog. of course things have changed since then as i can see that he is probably indeed more technical than musical and his ability to nnovate and grow as a performer has been limited (although surprisingly with his new trio he appeared to have aquired new zist and energy).
i think others have figured out that he probably wanted to impress th emasses, but of course for the discering music lover who can see thoguh acts and true abilites this can be a real turn off. to me bruford is a great example of a true musical innovator, his drums and music has and continue to stand the test of time and he is a delight to listen and watch at all times. still, carl can play liek the devil so let's keep that in perspective, ------------- eitan |
Posted By: smithers
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 02:09
| Bruford was just a good drummer until the late 70s. He had improved alot around the UK era. Michael Giles was a better drummer than Bruford in the early 70s. Palmer was probably a touch better than Bruford in the early 70s too. |
Posted By: Asphalt
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 03:04
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^^^ hmm... do you actually hava a counter argument to that, or are you just brushing small talk? I mean, if you're so allmighy all knowingly, maybe you care to enlighten us on some of the mistakes Ivan has made? It says you have 225 posts. Are they all like that - all insults and no arguments, or did you make them all in the fun section? Really now, do you actually have any SUBSTANCE to put in your post? Other than logical fallacies I see nothing worthy, but since you seem to know your drumming you clearly shoulb be able to provide with something worthwile. So please enlighten us, non-drummers, on what the joke was all about, I would honestly be very interested in some valid points, no matter whom they come against, Ivan, or any other Moderator/Collaborator/Admin/Founder, as long as they have some content and not just childish attacks. |
Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 03:06
Agreed on Bruford - simply awesome on any size drumset! I have seen 'Rock and Roll Your Eyes,' which is footage of ELP during their first album/Pics at an Exhibition timeframe (perhaps the same time as Isle of Whight?) Palmer does quite well on the five-piece set of one hanging tom and two floor toms, with about 10 or 12 cymbals (and gong) to augment. His long-hair hanging down over his eyes made his playing eerie, as it was apparent the man could play all cadences, etc., with his eyes closed, if he needed to. I saw him play with Asia in 1983 and (like our thread-leader) I too thought he was 'trying too hard.' He should have just kept to the smaller set with ample cymbals to show off his skillful chops.
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Posted By: Asphalt
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 04:26
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You really enjoy showing off, don't you? And we haven't even found out who you are or what you do, except for the fact that music isn't just your "HOBBY" [ohhhhh.... spooky]. Also, you still have failed to provide with a valid line of argumentation [if we appall you so much, how come you're still on this site? Please, grace us with a response, a truly valid one. After all, this is what forums are supposed to do: enhance communication between those who know better and those who wish to know.] Let me remind you, although I'm sure you knew, rhetorical questions do not provide with reasoning on themselves. And last but not least, yes this IS a prog music site for fans, not musicians alone [it's progarchives, not progarchivesmadebymusicgodsfortheunknowingunworthymusicfans], so it's only natural that some opinions may be partially unsubstantiated, but showing this kind of attitude helps no one. However, I see that this discussion has already taken too long and provided nothing, so unless my humble request for reasoning and substance will be graced, I will refrain from any more replies on this issue. |
Posted By: eitandaniel
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 05:08
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it has probably been pointed by others but remember that constructive feedback especially if owned and stated as opinion as opposed to the truth (which is of course a subjective and changable commodity) might have a possiblity to get acorss and been taken by your audiance,
what is it that your are actually trying to say- that you're frustrated? that you strongly disagree? if so, that's great, but why not do that? the world is already a most inhospitable and intolerable place, do we really want to bring the same insensitivity and rudeness to our midst? remember what defines prog in the first place, how would it be to stick and promote the spirit of the unknown, asking questions rather than thinking we know it all. i don't know you but for the comments you put out there, you might want to consider closely what you put down as your written masterpieces, (yes that was a subtle sniping i agree) just some ideas to ponder upon, ------------- eitan |
Posted By: Bob Greece
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 05:19
According to his profile he's a mix engineer/record producer aged 96. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/BobGreece/?chartstyle=basicrt10"> 
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Posted By: Bob Greece
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 05:25
These were quite polite ...
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=26469&KW - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=26469&KW = ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/BobGreece/?chartstyle=basicrt10">
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 05:59
Sorry to sound as if I'm trying to contradict everything you say ,but I believe that points 2 and 3 are the wrong way round.Carl was and still is an amzing player on the snare.That was really his forte.I'm quite surprised you think otherwise.His bass drumming work on the other hand is unremarkable to my ears.The only track that ELP recorded that sounds good from a bass drumming point of view is Stones Of Years.Its actually hard for me to think of others.By all means name them if you can!
I do agree with all the other points!
As for prog drummers generally ,the ones I rate at the top are:
Carl (most explosive)
Neil Peart (probably the best all round prog drummer)
Bill Bruford (rock solid but not quite as good as Peart or Palmer IMO)
Jon Hiseman (most underrated)
Phil Collins (I really like his drumming!)
Danny Carey (best of the modern drummers although Zoltan Csorz is another underrated drummer IMO)
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 06:19
I am fully in agreemwnt Richard, but I'll add That about point 4, I love his cymbal work si I don't agree with Ivan nad Point 5!!! I hear no evidence of either. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 06:26
Slipperfink, I have saved your post to my PC, I think its excellent on many of your points regarding Palmer and Collins. 
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: manticor
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 06:31
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Best One! ------------- mantikora |
Posted By: Bob Greece
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 06:32
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"Modesty is not only an ornament, but also a guard to virtue. " ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/BobGreece/?chartstyle=basicrt10">
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 06:36
| The complexity of Emerson's work, and the short time they'd been together before recording and gigging, assured that they all flubbed a beat now and then, even Keith. They had to keep up with their own sprawling music and it occasionally overtook them. Personally, I like hearing the struggle and it reminds me just how advanced they really were at that moment in rock. |
Posted By: Asphalt
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 06:40
Was it that hard to actually support your opinions with arguments? Or are you such a god that you shouldn't even open your mouth and we should believe you on the spot? I thank you for your on-topic response about drumming on Carl Palmer and Phil Collins. It was rather insightful. I am not in any way thankful for the overall egocentrism, paranoia and megalomaniac attitude [not really wetting myself for any particular band, and my stomach is doing rather well, thank you very much]. Yes, I am impressed at the musical record and background you mentioned. No, that does not make you superior on all levels, and your posts clearly showed that. And since you like quotes so much, I kindly direct you to one from a late 90's movie [American Beauty]: "What a sad old man you are!" Enough with the off-topics. I rest my case here. |
Posted By: hazard
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 07:32
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Palmer is greate drummer. When i heard at first Brian Salad Surgery, i thought that he's hard profesional drummer
------------- Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends... |
Posted By: Father Tiresias
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 09:00
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Palmer Not very good keeping times???? It's just nonesense!. |
Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 10:13
The whole post made you look pretty dumb but what really proved you're an idiot and caused you to lose all credibility was comparing Phil Collins to Tony Williams. |
Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 11:01
Alex van Halen is not a great drummer. He has about three times as many drums as he uses...  And with the ones he actually use, he doesn't do anything out of the ordinary. |
Posted By: Chicapah
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 11:13
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When you compare Carl to people like Bruford, Collins, Katche', Portnoy and Harrison (of PT) he's pretty average at best. He was a perfect fit for Emerson and Lake but I never thought his timing was the best and he would never have worked well in a band like Yes or Genesis. ------------- "Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 11:21
It's easy to criticize what someboidy says changing the words, I never mentioned a bad left foot or something as stupid as that.
BTW: The Pater Gabriel bass drum was not only on stage:
I believe his bass drum in early Genesis albums was weaker, and I stand on this.
BTW: I'm not a moderator.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 11:52
Hahaha! It's incredibly obvious you're almost certainly lying about yourself (not that it cahnges your arguments, which I'm ignoring simply because I don't know or care very much about Palmer or Collins). It was obvious from the moment you mentioned Fripp and your multi-million dollar recording studio. For another thing, famous rich people don't waste their time with internet forums, especially ones they hate as much as you hate this one. Although I guess maybe you can only bully people on the internet.
But I'm curious. What album(s) are you supposedly mixing? You probably won't answer because then it would expose you as simply being an arrogant asshole (rather than being a rich, famous, talented, arrogant asshole), but I feel obligated to ask.
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Posted By: spleenache
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 12:28
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[/QUOTE]
But I'm curious. What album(s) are you supposedly mixing? You probably won't answer because then it would expose you as simply being an arrogant asshole (rather than being a rich, famous, talented, arrogant asshole), but I feel obligated to ask. [/QUOTE]
Hey I am willing to bet Slipperfink will not respond. Now here is the question is it because he is above us little creatures or he was bullsh*tting all along about his multimillion dollar studio in Manhattan and his fabulously famous friends.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 12:45
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For the ELP fans not for this guy who doesn't deserve a reply.
Never said Palmer was bad in any aspect, but as any musician he has strongest points, the web is full of references to Palmer problems with timing, I didn't invented that, his bass drum work always impressed me, it's amazing as his speed and strenght.
But I learned to play drums trying to follow the great drummers not for hours, but for years and despite I don't have a shadow of their talent, I know how to recognize where they are stronger and where not.
His snare and cymbals IMO are not in the level of his bass drum, but if you read my last sentence I said he's IMO one of the top drummers compared with anybody, in his level being not so good in one aspect doesn't mean he's not superior to the vast majority of drummers, only that it's not his strongest feature, he's not God, he's not perfect in everything he does.
About Phil Collins, please check Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot, you will find that Peter Gabriel is credited with bass drum, not only on stage (What is obvious) but also in studio, so some boost was required in that aspect IN THE EARLY GENESIS ALBUMS..
Please check if this happens with any other band.
I don't talk about violin techniques because I don't know a damn thing about violin, but about drums I know the theory and played them so I believe my perspective is more clear.
But the most important, when I say something I use arguments, and if you notice I use my real name, I don't hide behind a nick to feel free to make mockery of other members, if somebody disagrees with me, I accept it, but give arguments not just insults, change of words and bad jokes that only prove the ignorance of the person acting like that.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Progger
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 13:04
| I can't think of any better drummer in the prog genre. His are the only drum solo's that hold my attention without falling asleep ala Peart & Portnoy. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 13:37
BTW: Just read this quote in the Carl Palmer Gurest Book:
We may not like Phil Collins as a composer but as a drummer he knows what he's talking about, if he dares to say this is because he knows what he's talking about.
BTW II: Thanks for your comments Richardh, I know you're a ELP fan and despite we disagree in two out of the 5 points I mentioned is good to know we agree in most of them.
Maybe the trouble I find with Palmer's snares is linked to the timming but still I believe his bass drum is deep and strong like in Fanfare, Rondo, Karn Evil 9 (All impressions), The Enemy God, etc.
I seen him several times and this fascet keeps impressing me more each time I listen him.
He gives depth to the sound.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Jeremy Bender
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 13:46
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The question: how would you compare drumming skills of Carl with respect to his contemporaries?
CP is (was) a great drummer:
- incredibly fast
- good snare technique
- versatile (in style and percussion instruments; timps, bells, glockenspiel, synthesized percussion etc.)
- not always steady
- not always a strong backbeat (too soft on the snare)
- i don't know what happened (carpal tunnel syndrome and his karate probably) but he lost 'it' for me after his elp years (after that period he sounds in my ears so forced and not fluid anymore, i'm not saying he was bad but he sounds so different)
CP has played some of the most creative and technical drumplaying i can imagine:
- the barbarian
- tank
- tarkus welcome back version (especially manticore, listen to that, very creative how he plays that sucker)
- jerusalem (maybe the best playing from him ever)
- toccata (that's somethin' every drummer has to hear sometime in his life)
- benny the bouncer (incredibly good and fast brush work)
- the drumsolo on welcome back my friends from karn evil
- his percussion concerto has some nice things, from normal drumkitplaying to timpani, glockenspiel, bells and all that ;-)
- the enmey god dances with the black spirits
- food for your soul
- pirates albert hall version, maybe his best playing on a elp composition
To put CP in context:
- Bill Bruford is a better drummer: better as a groover and better technique, soo fluid (cp is more of force)
- Neal Peart: probably more technical but to my ears far more clinical than CP
- Micheal Giles: i only know his work with kc, so i can't say, but more fluid that's for sure
- John Bonham: CP could NEVER groove like Bonzo, but Bonzo could NEVER play somethin' so creative like toccata
all in all: CP on his best was very technical, fast, creative, and energetic.
And to me my 1st druminspiration (when i heard jerusalem), what i like the most about him is his energy and his versatility.
So, most drummers of today from technical progbands outplay CP in technique(and are more STEADY) BUT I've never heard someone that played somethin' so creative as the barbarian, toccata and several other tracks. Those tracks have a certain magic from a drummers point of view and i've never heard anythin' like it.
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Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 13:48
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I think he does amazing snare drum (I'm not a drummer, so perhaps I'm wrong)... I think "Tank" is a great example.. the way he rolls and accentuates the beats ------------- Jesus Gabriel |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 13:55
Good point Jeremy Bender, and I think I clearly stated this in my first post:
Iván wrote:
Saying he's stronger in some fascets doesn't mean he's bad with the others, only that his major strenght is not there.
I agree with most of your points of view, his snare is soft sometimes.
Also agree with The Enemy God, it's amazing.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: SlipperFink
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 14:44
Tony Williams was one of the young Phil Collins's biggest influence. Get a clue. SM. ------------- Modesty is an ornament, but one goes further without it. Old German Proverb |
Posted By: SlipperFink
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 14:57
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This is the most fun I've had with my clothes on in 25 years.
No really. It's the best. Rock on ProgWizards!!! Whoooeeee. LMFBO. OK. Gotta flee. Back soon with more falsehoods. SM. ------------- Modesty is an ornament, but one goes further without it. Old German Proverb |
Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 15:00
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Right.
Sarcasm aside, you didn't answer my question, which only further proves you are liar. You see, people make sh*t up on the internet so they feel more important and/or so people treat them like they're important. Why? Because they can and there's no way to prove it. So everything someone says must be suspect, especially if they come in here acting like a total asshole and telling us wild tales of owning recording studios and engineering a Fripp album.
You could at least tell us who the best young prog band in the world is.
PS Manhattan was a good choice since there's an innumberable number of studios there. Hurrah for unverifiable claims!
There's a difference between not having false modesty and being a total asshole.
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Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 15:12
No, you're not Robert De Niro, and this is not Cape Fear, buddy 
Get a grip, why don't you relax in your personal spa while you call Carmen Electra to give you a massage... then fly with your buddy Robert Fripp on your private jet to see if you feel better... then come back here and have a decent discussion in a more elegant manner... arrogance is not elegant ------------- Jesus Gabriel |
Posted By: spleenache
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 15:23
SuperFlink
 you are a funny guy. |
Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 15:46
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31731&KW=produced&PN=2 - here
I'm not gonna be the devil's advocate on this one.. so judge from here if the guy is really a producer (since I know nothing about production).... either way, there are better methods to prove one wrong (in the hypothetical situation that he's right) ------------- Jesus Gabriel |
Posted By: spleenache
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 15:57
Hey Superflink how come you never reviewed a single record on this site yet seem mostly lurk in the forums. I bet you get off when others praise your work. If you were such a self confident guy as you pretend to be then you would not hide behind fiction and answer the questions and criticism quarely.
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Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 16:04
Yes, I know your trolling has succeeded, and I should have known better than to feed your delusions, but oh well. I must admit you use much bigger words and technical words that most people have no way of verifying than most trolls, I guess so you feel better (although a Thesaurus might have helped with that).
If Fripp is paying you, then, logically, Fripp would have played on it at some point, making it to some extent a Fripp album. Whatevever, it's not really important; saying "Fripp album" was much shorter than "that album Fripp paid you to engineer", and the meaning is the same: you know Fripp to some extent, making you better than we scum.
Also, if you are really such a successful and long-time engineer, shouldn't you already *know* prog labels, or be able to find them out on your own, rather than having to ask an internet forum for them? Why don't you tell us what work? You keep avoiding the question. The lavish praise would be even funnier if we knew that you made it and were praising it anyway.
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Posted By: alan_pfeifer
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 16:05
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I've not studied Palmer by any means, but form what I've heard he's a pretty good guy.
Ivan, I belive earlier you stated that Jazz drummers sometimes are weaker with basswork. I have to disagree on that front abit, as there's plenty of Jazz-Based drummers out there such as Lenny White and Billy Cobham (who was one of the drummers at the forefront of doube-bass drumming.) who have exclent bass techniqe.
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Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 16:24
agreed, Cobham indeed has amazing bass drum techniques... what I don't like about Lenny White is his solos.. they seem a bit random to me (sometimes I felt he crashed the cymbals at random beats)... but Cobham is amazing and could effortlessly follow the rest of the members ------------- Jesus Gabriel |
Posted By: spleenache
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 16:42
OK SlippingFig you still did not tell me why you never reviewed an album. It would have been great to findout what kind of music rings your bell
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 16:46
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If anyone thinks that Slipper is not for real I found this, but he calls himself Slipperman http://www.badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html - http://www.badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 16:49
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Wow, you are a true asshole. Congratulations. If you don't like what we're doing (which is understandable; I don't like much of what is done here) then don't bother us.
For some reason I imagine you as a bald guy who shouts at everyone he talks to.
Of course you haven't. Now tell us the name of the astoundingly good album that you mixed that we pathetic internot losers will gush over.
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Posted By: spleenache
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 16:52
I find SlippingFig very amusing. I wish he dropped in more often. He is bit of a philosopher too. I think that is great. Everyone needs insight.
Getting back to Carl versus others. I think others win.
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 17:06
Hmmm,I think some people should stay within four walls and not interact with other people....
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 17:52
Alan, I clearly stated weaker with their bassdrums in comparison with their own snares and cymbals:
Also used the word NORMALLY, not in all the cases, when I listen Jazz, the first thing I listen are cymbals and snares, so they develop their skills more, this doesn't mean each and every Jazz drummer will have exactly the same characteristics.
I don't need to hide from you pal, I'm here every day, you only talk about how great your work is going to be, how our sad little lives are going to be illuminated by your wonderful opus (From which nobody knows a thing yet).
But at least in this place you done nothing.
I never praised my work, but the day you write 10% of the bios and the reviews I written in Prog Archives and when bands as Magenta or stores selling stuff by Rick Wakeman or Pavlov's Dog take your reviews and include them in their site or translate them to japanese, then tak.
You only proved you're an arrogant who are basing your existence in a future project that you haven't even started.
I have never received a 70,000 bucks check from Robert Fripp or a 200,000 from another one but a real producer wouldn't brag about this in a public forum because nobody is stupid enough, and even if it's true, that doesn't make you better than anybody.
I have read the Slliperman page and it's full of technicall terms i don't claim to understand and a lot of profanities trying to make you sound more inetersting but which I honestly find pathetic.
Iván
EDIT: Is also interesting to see how you avoid answering specific questions, you just reply with a bunch of insults.
The real confident person who things this poor site is too amateur for him, would simply avoid it, not come back again and again trying to receive approval from people who supposedly are not in your level. -------------
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Posted By: spleenache
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 18:54
Ivan, way to go man. You scared the SlippingFig off this site.
 I will be surprised if he shows up ever again. Maybe under a new pseudoname.
Likes of SlippingFig usually have very thin skin. One thing they cannot stand is being mocked. Keep that in mind for next duel of the words.
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Posted By: Phil
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 19:40
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Hmm, at risk of sucking up to anyone, this is one of the best debates I've read on PA for a long time....
....this may sound shallow but whilst overall I prefer to listen to Bruford's drumming, I love CP's drumming on e.g the DVD "ELP - Masters from the Vault" - it's some of the most breathtaking stuff I've ever seen. OK at times it may be a little like watching an Olympic event rather than a music concert, (ditto Emerson) but it is to my mind truly amazing stuff.
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Posted By: spleenache
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 19:46
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I asked this question in another thread but so far no one replied. Maybe someone can help me here.
Does anyone know if Carl Palmer tunes his drums. If yes to what key
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 19:47
you must know him very well......
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Posted By: alan_pfeifer
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 19:54
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Sorry for my mistake earlier, thanks for correcting me Ivan. You seem a pretty knowledgeable person, I guess I was just being nitpicky for no reason. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 21:55
Thanks Spleenache, but the last thing I want is to scare péople and scape to debate, I learn more from the people I disagree with than from the ones I agree with and sometimes I'm mistaken because I'm human.
I believe more in people who admit the chance they may ne wrong than from those who feel they own the holy Grail of knowledge, in music as in any form of art, there are no absolutes, most of the members of his forum know this and we agree to disagree.
I have my perspective, maybe I can't understand most of the terms this guy uses (I would understand some more in my native language which is Spanish), but I say what I believe and what I feel.
When you learn to play drums with little help of hired teachers, you have to follow the great ones, my teachers were Phil Collins, Carl Palmer, Bill Bruford and Phil Ehart (The hardest one to follow), and when you follow them you notice the moments in which the timming is wrong or if his snares sound better than than his bass drums because you have npt onkly listened the song 1,000 times but with special emphasis in the drums and what is harder, trying to follow them.
I'm sure Slipperfink knows about engeneering but I doubt he's as important as he's trying to convince us he is, and probably hasn't heard the drums specifically as many times as a kid trying to learn until his LP's are so scratched that almost can't be listened repeating a hard section in which he constantly fails.
Richardh disagrees in 2 out of the 6 points I mentioned about Palmer but he did it in a polite way, I respect that, but when you loose the patience is probably because you're not so sure about what you're saying.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 22:26
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Ummm, about Carl Palmer's lack of snare drum skills: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gn9fkAGwJcM |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 27 2006 at 22:42
For God's sake and for thenth time, NOBODY HAS SAID CARL PALMER LACKS OF SKILLS WITH THE SNARES, that's what a determined person pretended to make believe I had said.
Saying that IMO his bass drums skills are stronger than with the snares, doesn't mean he's bad with the snares, only that I believe (I may also be wrong) he's better wih the bass drum.
Nobody reaches the peak of musicianship (as I said repeatedly about him) without being extremely good.
I'll give you a different example, I work with Civil law but mostly with trademarks, for that reason I feel I'm better working with trademarks but this doesn't mean I'm bad in the rest of the Civil field, Volvo hired me for several years to collect a heavy portfolio of US$ 60'000,000, and this Swedish company wouldn't hire a person who is bad in that field, but still I feel more comfortable with copyright laws.
The same is with Palmer, I like the power of his bass drum a lot, his speed is amazing but I don't have the same feeling for his snare work and timing, but he's still a top ten and tob reach that level you have to be extremely good.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Bob Greece
Date Posted: December 28 2006 at 02:16
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The opposite of modesty is arrogance and nobody likes that. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/BobGreece/?chartstyle=basicrt10">
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: December 28 2006 at 05:59
probably true of about 80% of prog fans
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: December 28 2006 at 06:03
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Let me make Ivans point clear before anyone else posts. He says Palmer is an excellent drummer, better than many of his contempories. As a great drummer though he is a little less good in his snare technique and timing etc... Is that right Ivan?  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 28 2006 at 09:19
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^^^
Not as good with the snares, cymbals far from perfect and IMHO not very good keeping times.
That's exactly what I said in my frst post.
Ivan wrote:
Quoted literally from my post to avoid misunderstandings. this almost inopcuos statement cause all the problem.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Prog.Sylvie
Date Posted: December 28 2006 at 10:36
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Really interesting debate here. I saw those two drummers this year. I met both of them backstage, and I have my picture taken with each of them. I even worked for Carl for one night saling his items. I don't know much about drumming, even if I went two times at the Montreal DrumFest. I learned about it a little.
I don't think that we can really compare those gentlemen; Bill is more on the jazz way, more on groove, while the other is more agressive and punchy. Both are technically good, and both give drum clinics and like to teach. It's like skiers. Some skiers are good on slalom while others are good on giant slalom and fast down hill skiing. We can not say that one skier is better than the other if they don't ski the same event. It's the same with Bruford and Palmer. They don't play the same way, and the same kind of music. If you like Jazz, maybe Bruford is the drummer for you, but if you like the more agressive and fast way to play, than Carl is the drummer for you. Drumming is not just a technical way; if you can not transmit to the people your joy of playing and good feelings, even if you are technically good, it's not enough. One thing I noticed; Bill is more relaxed on drumming, while Carl seems to play on a more physical way, more punchy and faster. Carl is also nice on the snare drum like on the video on you tube. Today, IMHO, Carl does try and show new tricks on the drums and snare drums, things that he never did while he was playing with ELP. So, Carl innovated in his way of drumming. For me, he is the more interesting one to watch, the one who blows me away. ------------- C'est la vie |
Posted By: Prog.Sylvie
Date Posted: December 28 2006 at 10:41
Mr.Bill Bruford at the Montreal Drum Fest. Very cool and relaxed. Very interesting. A good teacher. 
Backstage. A gentleman. ------------- C'est la vie |
Posted By: Prog.Sylvie
Date Posted: December 28 2006 at 10:47
Carl with his band at the Medley in Montreal. Technically pretty good and very agressive. He still likes to play hard. ------------- C'est la vie |
Posted By: Prog.Sylvie
Date Posted: December 28 2006 at 10:50
Carl with me at his table. It's midnight, and he does not seem tired. Carl is somekind of hyperactive, believe me. A gentleman too and very talkative.  ------------- C'est la vie |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: December 28 2006 at 11:03
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Thanks Sylvie...great photos!
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: chessman
Date Posted: December 28 2006 at 19:19
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A decent drummer, neither crap nor brilliant.
Probably the second best musician in the band, behind Emerson.
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Posted By: echocharlie
Date Posted: December 28 2006 at 22:50
| Carl Palmer was the FIRST to fuse the modern drum kit with orchestral and synthesized percussion in such a seamless manner as demonstrated on BSS. Although this thread is somewhat interesting, it is also chuck full of some very dubious comparisons. One must take into consideration the innovation that CP brings to the party as well as the level of showmanship that has dazzled countless thousands of concert goers since many weekends ago. CP is a musician who happens to be a drummer. His drumming credentials does rank him among Gene Krupa and Buddy Rich within the context of prog methinks. |
Posted By: The Wizard
Date Posted: December 28 2006 at 22:53
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He's talented, unfortunately he was stuck in a band with Kieth Emerson. -------------  
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Posted By: Atomic_Rooster
Date Posted: December 29 2006 at 00:30
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i just recently saw the Carl Palmer Band, and i have to say that they are fantastic! and well worth the price of admission (i paid 20 dollars to see them in Springfield, Illinois where the audience was only around 50, but he played there because he loves the venue - normal venues on the tour were 5-10k on average i think) The entire band is fantastic, Palmer is the showcase, and even pushing late 50's, he is a wonderfully inventive and insanely skilled drumme, which was even more shown, because they performed reworked ELP songs and classical pieces in a Prog-Metal vein, which really showed off all three members skills. Any lover of prog should go see them and/or buy their live 2006 DVD - Its like ELP with a great shredder instead of Emerson and a bass player easily four times better than Greg Lake, but the entire set is instrumental (well worth it just to see Palmer keep one drumstick atop his ride, still playing it with NO HANDS) Overall on his playing, i have to say that Bruford might be a bit more technical and creative, but he lacks the strength, speed, endurance, and heart of Palmer ------------- I am but a servant of the mighty Fripp, the sound of whose loins shall forever be upon the tongues of his followers. |
Posted By: echocharlie
Date Posted: December 29 2006 at 07:18
| ^Yeah - the Springfield show was quite good - despite the pathetically low turn-out. It was possibly the worst ticket sales of the US tour. What's the deal in Springfield IL anyway?? |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: December 29 2006 at 07:21
Could have been 100 times worse. He could have been stuck in a band with Ian Anderson. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: dwill123
Date Posted: December 29 2006 at 08:03
Any chance of you elaborating on that statement? |
Posted By: proger
Date Posted: December 29 2006 at 08:11
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I dont like carl playing at all ------------- ...live for tomorrow... |
Posted By: Prog.Sylvie
Date Posted: December 29 2006 at 10:09
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Carl is very versatile. His playing is a mixture of subtilities, great techniques, variations, speed, agressivity, (and sometimes groove), creativity, a very great showmanship and all this combined with a good connexion with the audience. ( a real stand up comic between music pieces...).
Like I already told you, I saw many drummers playing at the Mtl DrumFest ( something like 20 drummers in two fests.), they were all good, with a lot of skills in their own styles, but for me, nothing is more enjoyable than seeing Carl playing drums 15 feet from me... . ------------- C'est la vie |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: December 29 2006 at 11:25
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Funny thread. A lot of back-stabbing! Tell me, why does one musician always have to be 'better' than another? E.L.P. are far from my favourite prog band, but whenever I listen to their classic albums, I thoroughly enjoy Palmer's drumming. His playing is truly exciting and amazingly inventive. So never mind the technical deficiencies (if there are any).
As for Bruford, he's my favourite drummer of all time. No other prog musician has given me such (musical!) pleasure for over three decades. To paraphrase Sylvie (by the way: Hi, I love those pics; what a relief to read an outspoken and highly knowledgeable female prog fan!): "Nothing could be more enjoyable than seeing Bill play drums 14 feet away from me", for hours at a stretch. At the same time, I'm aware jazz lovers are so spoiled for choice that most don't even bat an eyelid at the things Bill and Earthworks try to do... |
Posted By: Fitzcarraldo
Date Posted: December 29 2006 at 13:56
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I like Palmer’s drumming, and he sounds very skilful to my ears. It seems quite a few people in the know think so too:
Best Drummer 1971 Melody Maker (UK) Best Drummer 1972 Circus Magazine (USA) Best Drummer 1972 Melody Maker (UK) Best Drummer 1974 Pop Hammer (Germany) Best Drummer 1974 Melody Maker (UK) Best Drummer 1975 Modern Music Maker Awards Circus Magazine (USA) Best Drummer 1975 Melody Maker (UK) Best Drummer 1975 Music Life Magazine (USA) Best Drummer 1977 Melody Maker (UK) Best Drummer 1978 Playboy Music Poll Percussionist Of The Year 1983 The American Committee of British Rock Top Drummer 1985 Diario De Avisos Music Canaria (Spain) Entered into the Modern Drummer Hall Of Fame (1989) Modern Drummer Magazine (USA) Lifetime Achievement Award (1995) Percussive Arts Society (UK) Top Drummer 2000 Classic Rock Society (UK) Top Drummer 2001 Classic Rock Society (UK) ------------- http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=326" rel="nofollow - Read reviews by Fitzcarraldo |
Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: December 29 2006 at 15:28
| I'd put Palmer in my top 10 drummers of any genre, with the likes of Peart, Moon, Bonham, Bruford, and Rich. He pioneered electronic effects in a kit which was later perfected by Peart. He's a good balance of Peart's ferocity and Bruford's subtlety. His snare work is a bit weak but it doesn't detract from his ability. He's my favorite member of ELP, though Emerson is the most talented. |
Posted By: Prog.Sylvie
Date Posted: December 29 2006 at 15:58
This is the right words; a mixed of ferocity and subtelety. For me, Carl is in the top five. I doubt that Carl sees himself as number one drummer in the world. He knows perfectly that he has to work on the drums everyday to stay on top of his talent. ------------- C'est la vie |
Posted By: Prog.Sylvie
Date Posted: December 30 2006 at 19:27
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBav0J_Fs1A
Carl is still fast as you can see on this video taken in september at an Asia show in New Jersey. Enjoy ------------- C'est la vie |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 30 2006 at 22:57
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I waited untill this thread was advanced to explain why sometimes things are frustrating:
I said about Carl Palmer:
Almost everybody has agreed with this point.
Most disagree partially because some examples of strong bass drum are mentioned.
Because of this phrase I received an avalanche of insults but:
Jeremy Bender wrote:
and
1800iareyay wrote:
Then I wrote more:
Sounds controversial but:
Richardh wrote:
Precisely the cymbals was one of the points with which he agreed.
Wow, sounds strong but:
Atavachron wrote:
also
Chicapah wrote:
and
Jeremy Bender wrote:
My last point was: Spectacular and a great sense of showmanship....I believe nobody can disagree with this.
Now to my central point, all of the points I mentioned were reapeated and at least appreciated in a similar way by one or more members,m so an ignorant and an idiot I'm not.
Also some were contradicted with arguments something that I respect and everybody knows I love a good debate.
But why in hell if my appreciations are shared by some members (Because there are not absolute truths in music as in motst artistic expressions), did I had to waste hours answering attacks with no argument by one member?
I might be wrong, but seems that some of us share the same oipinions, I accept and encourage disagreements but free attacks for the pleasure of attacking is very exhausting.
I waited until the thread was advanced so everybody can see that people can express their opinions with freedom, but yesterday's attack was unnecessary and without any backup argument.
I want to thank the people who supported my right to express my opinion even if they disagree, I believe that's the way debates should be.
Iván
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 30 2006 at 23:07
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Ivan, I increasingly appreciate your tenacity and calm under fire. Combat can be ugly but you bring character to it and, as a martial artist, skill and heart in battle is something I always respect. Though I find myself more fond of Palmer as the years pass, that jackass 'producer' was out of line and shamelessly childish. Heck, you did us a favor by locking horns with him .
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 30 2006 at 23:36
Thanks Atavachron, the interesting thing is that nobody can stop to love drummers like Carl Palmer who are of course technical (Nobody is top notch with absolute lack of technique) but also a force of nature.
He has incredible speed and strenght and if you want more speed you may sacrifice timming, but he insists trying to be faster and more aggressive, nobody can bore watching Carl jumping from his drums to his glockenspiel and Gongs as impulsed by some strange force.
Of course with much more technique but he reminds me of Keith Moon, the human tornado, he was on the other extreme, he could loose the timing completely but he didn't care, he took more and more risks.
When ELP played in Lima, I had my car parked blocking the entrance, so after the third encore we started to leave before somebody crashed us, but of course listening them from the distance (It was the last song), almost a block away I couldn't listen Lake (Of course) or even Keith, but Carl drums were easy to listen...God what a strenght.
Sometimes technique is not everything, having the balls and the skills to take risks is very valuable.
Iván
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 30 2006 at 23:46
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Yes, in a way Palmer and Moon share a musical spirit that pushed them to physical extremes previously unbreached. Of course Moon was extraordinary...a genuine deity of rock and his manic energy was one of the highlights of the Who, and many drummers are of course still touched by his influence.
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: December 31 2006 at 05:07
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All very interesting.Some years ago he was asked who is favourite drummers were especially those in the jazz rock field and he admitted he wasn't that interested in that genre or type of drumming.I think he also said that in his mind energy could make up for lack of technique and gave an example (although despite racking my brain I can't remember who it was ...not Keith Moon though). I tend to put drummers into 2 different categories.The rock drummers who put energy first:
Bonham
Palmer
Moon
White
...are three classic examples
those that are more technique based:
Bruford
Peart
Hiseman
Collins
etc
Most prog drummers will naturally fall into the second category but Carl (and Alan White) provide good examples of out and out rock drummers who strayed into the prog arena..almost by accident.Of course Palmer has great technique in some areas..especially the snare..but he was a rock drummer first and foremost and that makes him more interesting to me.
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: December 31 2006 at 05:11
| ...ah now I remember it was the drummer in Blondie that Carl admired! |