Saddam's execution
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Topic: Saddam's execution
Posted By: jalas
Subject: Saddam's execution
Date Posted: January 12 2007 at 13:23
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Knowing that when Saddam killed the Kurds in the early 80s, he did it with US weapons and support, and also know that before the Gulf war started, the UN had sanctions on the country and there was evidence that the sanctions were working, yet Bush still declared war on an already devastated country, How do you feel about his death?
Although I think he was a very bad man, there was no justice in what just happened since Saddam was pretty much stabbed in the back by his ex-friend, the US. Carter and Reagan are just as guilty for Saddam's crimes. They should have just kept him in prison for life, or until Bush was put on trial and sentenced to death also for killing more Iraqis than Saddam ever did. IF you want to play by the rules then lets play fair.
History is written by the victors. ------------- 
JOIN THE COMMUNIST PARTY! |
Replies:
Posted By: MadcapLaughs84
Date Posted: January 12 2007 at 13:33
I agree with you in some way, I really think he deserved dying, because all of the crimes, but he has a shared guilty as you say, so the other guys Carter and Reagan should die to. Unfortunately we are in a world ruled by the economic potencies, so they won't sentence them to death penalty. And That's a shame. ------------- 
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jalas wrote:Posted By: OpethGuitarist
Date Posted: January 12 2007 at 14:14
I think you have a very INTERESTING way of twisting things to support your beliefs by placing guilt in places it doesn't occur. You use similar logic to (example) blaming deaths on guns rather than on the people themselves, and while I might agree with some of what you say, you use a twisted logic to push a political agenda that I wouldn't support. ------------- back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: January 12 2007 at 15:54
don't know what's different by this, maybe I'm mistaking, but we've already had a topic on saddam's execution and it got in the end closed thanks to the usual driving off away (that usually happens in heated subjects, particularly politics ones).  ------------- 
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Posted By: Scapler
Date Posted: January 12 2007 at 16:02
True, true, my previous discussion came hours after his death, and it was shut down because people just can't seem to say kosher when talking of politics. Oh, and Madcaplaughs84, it would be pretty hard to give Reagan the death penalty, seeing as he is already dead  ------------- Bassists are deadly 
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Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: January 12 2007 at 19:03
Maybe you should call into a talk show. |
Posted By: markosherrera
Date Posted: January 12 2007 at 19:08
| Rain over wet |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: January 12 2007 at 19:09
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This thread was done before,and was closed because it degenerated.
I will leave this open for now but will be watching this thread VERY closely.  -------------  |
Posted By: markosherrera
Date Posted: January 12 2007 at 19:21
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 13 2007 at 02:20
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Guys, I can't but repeat Jody's words... Keep it civil (and the last post was barely so), or this thread will go the same way as the one before. Ah, in case you were wondering: I'm anything but a Bush supporter, and my life partner (who's also a forum member, in case you didn't know) is a US citizen. So, no one can accuse me of being biased. |
Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: January 13 2007 at 02:49
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My 22 cents worth of useless biased opinion.
1. I'm against the death penalty 2. I think Sadam deserved to be punished severly. 3. Saddam's trial wasn't a trial, but a staged show, and the outcome was already known to all. 4. Saddam's victims have not been done justice. Saddam is killed for the murder of 142 (don't know the number excactly)civilians, the other killings he is not convicted for, and can't be convicted for (he deserves to defend himself in court, so other accusations can't be properly trialed) so the other thousands of victims of his brute regime stand empty handed (they may feel happy for his death, but that's all they have, no justice done to their case against him) 5. His fast execution is suspicios to say the least. The Americans wanted him dead before the year was over a: (to avoid it being incorporated in the year-review of 2006, and of course it won't be in the one for 2007 since it happened in 2006) b: Other reason is of course to have Saddam out of the way, and not being able to speak about American help he got while the genocide took place (Saddam didn't talk about that yet, since he was playing for Arabic and Muslim sympathy, to acknowledge aid from America would estrange him from that sympathy) c: to get the subject dealt with and move on to the next target. which of course is Iran, to pressure Iran there will be sended more troops to Irague (which borders on Iran) and already the Iranian embassy has been attacked. So now you know why the extra troops are needed in Iraq. 6. The filming of the event and broadcasting is also highly strange. To get back on another aspect of the initial post: why aren't the leaders of America prosecuted for their involvement in the genocides that took place under Saddam's regime, well the answer is simple as stated earlier, the history is written by the conquerors, so America can choose which history they want preserved. however if it was up to me, i would make it mandatory to bring world leaders to court after their reign is over to judge on how they've done. If they've done well in the eyes of the world we can declare them to be saints, but if they did wrong they can be imprisond for their mistakes, that would make them more causios when making big pottentially dangerous decisions. anyway. Saddam will be missed by the ones who suppert him, and not so much by the ones who don't. ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: January 13 2007 at 06:47
I think you must realize one thing:
The US had nothing to do with Saddam's rise in power, and did not help him more than other nations in his fight against Iran (as a matter of fact most of the planet was quite happy he did so, Koweitis first in that list).
Saddam came out of the Baas party which was of Communist obedience (as it was in their brother country Syria, both countries beingmore Soviet-inclined during the cold war). The US neither cared for Saddam, nor were interested in his country until he invaded Bush friends the Beduins , so called kings of Koweit. And of course the Dubya admin got a perfect scapegoat avoiding to point to the real authors of 9/11, the Saudi beduins which were also Bush allies.
So Carter, Clinton and Reagan have not much to do with his Saddam's crimes:
Carter: Saddam got into power in 79, his last year in office >> not guilty
Reagan: he might have armed Iraq against Iran, but so did the French, British, Koweitis, Saudis, Qataris and every other Arab and Muslim Sunni) nations in the world. Not guilty (for once)
Clinton: Again, he had not much to do with Iraq
Bushes (Sr and Jr): medium guilt, because he was not their puppet, which is exactly why they acted against him. Guilty mostly of cupidity and incapable decisions, but mass-murdering of Kurds only suited the Turks and Saddam.
PS: I am a left winger with a fairly strong anti-US imperialism sentiments, so normally we should be argueing on the same side. But here, I do not agree that the US were responsible for the Iraq situation before the first Gulf War. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: jalas
Date Posted: January 13 2007 at 12:52
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I guess I wanted to start a new thread on Saddam because of how sad his execution actually made me feel. This is not a matter of how bad Saddam was but a thread to discuss justice. Saddams trial was not the only travesty out there, but since it's the most recent one, it shows how we still can trust the justice system, no matter what country you are in.
I actually felt sorry for Saddam after being dug out of a hole, being exposed to the world in his underwear, going to court for something he thought was forgotten about and sentenced to death regardless of how others were getting away with worse crimes. This is another reason why the death penalty is wrong. His death will not bring back the lives of all that he killed, but incarceration is enough. -------------
JOIN THE COMMUNIST PARTY! |
Posted By: OpethGuitarist
Date Posted: January 13 2007 at 21:15
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^^ again you are using tactics and misinformation to prove your politics, and once again you twist every situation to support your views - play fair? If you wanted to play fair, many of the people you idolize would be put to deaths for their crimes - corruptness can happen to anyone, the Republican party doesn't have a monopoly on it i am against the death penalty but for entirely different reasons worried about getting away with worse crimes? I'm sorry, but that's sounding similar to someone saying "I shouldn't be arrested for burglary, there's someone out there raping someone" - it's foolish and almost laughable Bad deeds are bad deeds, and should be punished regardless of if everyone has come to justice. I disagree with the death penalty, but using it as a crusade for your twisted political logic won't float. Stop making outrageous claims that have little substance to them. ------------- back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums |
Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: January 13 2007 at 21:20
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It's naive to say that Saddam thought the U.S. was "his friend." Don't base any judgement on that belief. ------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: January 13 2007 at 21:23
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: January 13 2007 at 21:30
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I'm not very upset that he was executed but rather that people I know personally celebrated it, joked about it and wanted to watch videos of it. How ugly is that? We think down on so many of the people in the middle east, though we may deny it, call them barbarians and so on, and we want to see someone die in real life. A death is a death. Saddam may have "deserved it," but it was just such a disgusting act. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: January 13 2007 at 21:36
| ^^ I agree with stonebeard. |
Posted By: The Lost Chord
Date Posted: January 13 2007 at 21:57
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I agree with stonebeard as well.
I do not believe that the deliberate killing of anyone is "just", no matter what....its very hard, today, to understand the violence in the world.
And sadly, I do not "support the troops" and slap me if im wrong but i dont support having an army at all, i think this is all pure ignorance. -------------  "Only the sun knew why"
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Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: January 13 2007 at 22:00
...not much I have to add. That pretty much sums up my feelings. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: January 13 2007 at 22:01
I'm in a bind about this sentiment. I am glad that these brave people would risk their lives so that we may live in comfort, I'd love to see what they're fighting for realized, but I'm just so sad because I don't think it will be realized, at least not in our lives. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: January 13 2007 at 22:03
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"happened since Saddam was pretty much stabbed in the back by his ex-friend, the US. Carter and Reagan."
I'm pretty sure Saddam never for one moment thought we were his "friend." He knew we were using him and he took advantage of that. Get real. ------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: The Lost Chord
Date Posted: January 13 2007 at 22:07
I agree, but what I am glad for is, sadly, ignorance on a mass scale...if everyone thought like, say, Jesus...well, we would all live fairly happily, but if someone was violent well we wouldnt know what to do hahaha.
I have a best friend in the army also, but i do not support having an army and i think if he woke up he would leave in a heart beat...ESPECIALLY in this "war" ------------- "Only the sun knew why"
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 13 2007 at 22:12
sadly enough.. some asshole will come in and flame you for that TLC not realizing that the freedom to speak your mind is exactly what those troops are for. No Army and all that sounds great.. of course it does... you should know human nature.. is to kill to possess what you need... or what others have that you want. There will always be a need to have an Army.. to protect what we have ... and to take what we want hhahahahha ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: January 13 2007 at 22:14
Ya, micky, that's the sad part. I would love to have no need for an army, but we have enemies who would love to overtake us.  ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: The Lost Chord
Date Posted: January 13 2007 at 22:17
Well, while i will admitedly say I am not a politics wiz, i do know that Costa Rica has no army :) (if someone could elaborate on this, id much appreciate it! I just know they "dont have an army" end of story hahaha)
Human nature is something that i love to discuss! Well, arent many things human nature that we "control"? I do believe one day you will control your desire to kill for what you need, i think you already have controlled it actually!
Human nature is a thing of the past, we are ALIENS now ------------- "Only the sun knew why"
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 13 2007 at 22:18
of course there is, don't think for a second that every one of those troops in Iraq wouldn't rather be home right now, with their families and screwing around on PA's with the rest of us. They believe in what they are doing.. even when.. most of us sitting here don't. I think we all should support them.. but if don't.. you'll learn to do so someday. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: The Lost Chord
Date Posted: January 13 2007 at 22:23
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Micky, i cant help but disagree...why should i support the killing of people? Why should i even support my own friends CHOICE to go out and kill other people for something he believes in.
What are they fighting for, really? To continue an age old tale, to continue a thriving ignorance most probably directly related to "human nature".
But, in this moment in time I do "support" any help for my life, and in a way they are doing that....but its a HOLE we are in and we need to dig ourselves out!
I would cut my own throat before killing another man
Brings to mind, Barclay James Harvest said it wondefuly...
"Everyone is Everybody Else" ------------- "Only the sun knew why"
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 13 2007 at 22:23
costa rica... no army?. .hahahh.. I thought they were part of the 'coalition of the willing' hahahahha
Oh no my friend.. human nature is the product of thosands of years of
raping and pillaging across this world of ours in pursuit of power,
land, money, woman whatever. That is hard-wired in our existance
TLC. I know that if someone came to take something important from
me.. my children.. my Rickenbackers.. my darling AR partner... I
would resort to any means to protect them. As you would... as any
of us would.------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: The Lost Chord
Date Posted: January 13 2007 at 22:27
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Not that I disagree i hold my beliefs very lightly...
but then, what are Christians? Who was Jesus?
Jesus vowed 100% against what you say, and I do believe peple are capable of it ------------- "Only the sun knew why"
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Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: January 13 2007 at 22:33
People capable of controlling what? |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 13 2007 at 22:34
hmmm.... I'm not saying you SHOULD support them... I'm saying that someday you WILL learn to support them. TLC.. is a bad bad world out there... if stand back and do nothing.. who will stop the bad guys ... sure as hell not Europe. I disagree STRONGLY with Iraq not on the account of killing and death.. that again is human nature and is all over this fine world of ours... I'm against it because we are killing and being killed for the wrong damn people. That is Bush Light's mistake..not the troops. They are fighting because they are doing so because there country asked them to.. and they trust their leaders to send them where their country needs them. For abusing that trust... I sincerely hope Bush rots in hell.. and honestly.. I think he willl... at least in the history books he will  I respect your views on killiing... you I hope are not naive enough to not realize that there are people here who have served and have been asked to kill for their country. I bet each one of them would give anything not to have had to do that. Sometimes ... this is where age and experience come in TLC.. it is necessary. It is a damning statement on the state of the world where hate.. not love reigns supreme. Don't mean to lecture.. I get like that sometimes. I'm out for the evening... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: The Lost Chord
Date Posted: January 13 2007 at 22:35
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capable of not killing, anyone, under any circumstance.
people capable of just, really, pure love, love of enemy, love of friend, love of one another.
The truest sense of everyone is everybody else.
This is what i "follow" as best i can, but I too struggle with the belief of not harming someone who was deliberately trying to kill me or something....but, Jesus did it eh?
Its a crazy crazy hard thought ------------- "Only the sun knew why"
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Posted By: The Lost Chord
Date Posted: January 13 2007 at 22:41
I respect all youv said mick, but I do believe people can live a purely loving life, mainly BECAUSE of knowing the world is full of hate.
It is something very hard to explain, and honestly i could throw the age and experience card at you here as well...i think with it comes this thought, and alot of people do turn to pure love. I see myself in the black and white and I find it very hard to come conclusive here, and i dont wait on age.
You may think it is time, but it is what happens within that time that counts...i have seen the most ignorant people reach their late 80's and it baffles me...but this seems to all be part of the great bid picture anyway :)
I love as much as i can, and always will....and when the day comes for me to chose, hopefuly i will make the "right" choice, kill or be killed? Love and be killed for the sake of love? What is death, life? ahhhhh who knows who knows, let it be, ill just keep thinking ------------- "Only the sun knew why"
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 14 2007 at 01:43
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 14 2007 at 09:22
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: The Lost Chord
Date Posted: January 14 2007 at 14:05
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Any say on the Christian ethic here? ------------- "Only the sun knew why"
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: January 14 2007 at 14:13
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" stand back and do nothing.. who will stop the bad
guys ... sure as hell not Europe." Hey, Mickey, you do know that the UK is part of Europe dont you? One hears these things about you Yanks not being too great on Geography... |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 14 2007 at 14:16
Well, he's not one of 'those' Yanks, I assure you, Tony... The thing is, do UK citizens themselves know THEY are part of Europe? |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 14 2007 at 23:32
always have a say hahahha but not sure exactly what Christian ethic you are referring too... refresh me and I'll take a ... shot .. at it ahahha ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 14 2007 at 23:37
hahahha.. yes.. .that is indeed the question... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: darksinger
Date Posted: January 15 2007 at 10:32
just for the record-i'm a "yank" and can find iraq on a map without the little words telling me where it is. i can find the uk, too, and tell where england, scotland and wales are, too.... ------------- 
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Posted By: jalas
Date Posted: January 17 2007 at 10:54
Real Christianity is hard to explain and I do know exactly where you're coming from. I've been struggling with choices of comfort or love. It is something that is hard to explain, but it's not just Christians who hold these ethics. Other religions are all about peace and unconditional love(except satanism) and even Atheist hold on to these ethics. It's common sense that it's better to love and hate. The problem is that hate brings instant gratification. The long term effect though, sucks. loving will not bring satisfaction right away, but it does catch up on you eventually. With this unconditional love, I see how you can't support the troops. They knew that they might have had to kill. That's a given. I don't support them either for making the wrong decision, but that is the only thing that I can hold against them. I'm sure they mean well as human beings, but if I'm going to support the troops, I might as well support the terrorists. They mean well also. They believe that what they do will make the world better. Killing is wrong, duhh.
By the way, Costa Rica may be part of the coalition of the willing, but they are like Palao. The support is only symbolic. they don't have an army. -------------
JOIN THE COMMUNIST PARTY! |