"Saucerful Of Secrets" the beginning of Krautrock?
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Topic: "Saucerful Of Secrets" the beginning of Krautrock?
Posted By: acido
Subject: "Saucerful Of Secrets" the beginning of Krautrock?
Date Posted: January 17 2007 at 18:13
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A friend at the next record store, when I was still working as a record
salesboy, told me with serious way "Saucerful Of secrets is beginning
of Krautrock" and it sounded profound but there was some truth in it. What is your opinion ? Do these words hit you at all? Or say that he didn't have Krautrocok at his highest appreciation. (prefered the 60's really) Some earlier band that come to mind right now are Amon Duul, Xhol caravan acido ------------- ONE SOLUTION REVOLUTION |
Replies:
Posted By: The Wizard
Date Posted: January 17 2007 at 18:15
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The Title Track defietely has a very 'krautrock' fell to it, with the noises, steady rythyms, and unconventiol structure as well as a somewhat ambient fell is places. -------------  
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 17 2007 at 18:20
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curious to hear Phillippe's views.. always considered Amon Duul to be the beginning. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: January 17 2007 at 21:14
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I've always thought of Krautrock as two somewhat seperate entities with a lot of intersection: There's the loud, rhythmic Krautrock (Amon Duul II is a great example), and then there's the spacy, moody, ponderous side (Popol Vuh, for example). Amon Duul II definately pioneered the loud one on Phallus Dei, but I never really thought about the genesis of the second side. Pink Floyd is definately a major influence! -------------   |
Posted By: The Wizard
Date Posted: January 17 2007 at 21:20
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Yeah, there's definetely some proto-ambient in that song. I just gave it another listen. -------------
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Posted By: Witchwoodhermit
Date Posted: January 17 2007 at 23:38
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To use the words "beginning of Krautrock" is incorrect. Pink Floyd were an English band in the midst of some serious psychedelic noodling.
In Germany psychedelic bands were working out their own sound. Influenced by, British and American groups, but with their own distinct teutonic flavour.
"Krautrock" (I dislike the term) is the creative rock evolution, of Germany, self inspired and influenced by MANY of the major players in rock music at the time.
To suggest that Saucerful is "the beginning" is inacurate and uninformed. ------------- Here I'm shadowed by a dragon fig tree's fan ringed by ants and musing over man. |
Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: January 18 2007 at 05:55
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It's definitely the start of Tangerine Dream's career. Electronic Meditation is pretty much made up of variations on Saucerful of Secrets.  ------------- "The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time." |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: January 18 2007 at 06:10
My reading of Krautrock involves bands like:
ADII, Guru Guru, early Can (with Mooney), the first two TD albums etc.. one the one side >> rythmic psych phase
Early first two Kraftwerk, first two Cluster, first two Popol Vuh and the next two TD albums (Zeit and Atem) >> space phase
Later Kraftwerk & Cluster became purely electronics and joined Neu! (and Can to a lesser extent)
Then you have groups that went different, jazz-like: Embryo, Kraan, Agitation free etc... second phase ADII and Guru Guru seems to be more in this kind of bracket.
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
rileydog22 wrote:Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: January 18 2007 at 06:11
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You can just as well ask my opinion too (mick), cause I don't think so at all. Saucerful Of Secrets is all about a truly wonderful psychedelic, brainy, ecclectic, smokey tentative. and even within the psych movement, the album isn't the pioneer; only the best outcome (for me) ------------- 
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Posted By: Modrigue
Date Posted: January 18 2007 at 06:26
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I agree that A saucerful of Secrets is a trippy avant-garde epic song, with such a feeric ending. It is undoubtly one of the song that announces the Krautrock movement. But THE one who announced the genre before is the Interstellar Overdrive version in London 66-67. Far better than the album version in my opinion. More psychedelic, rocky, Neu-ish and Hawkwind-esque. If you do not know this version, you MUST listen to it ! 16 mins of heavy space rock cataclysm ! |
Posted By: acido
Date Posted: January 18 2007 at 12:36
Considering the influences that krautrock must have been based on,
inevetably. Soundwise saucerful has other moments also, such as the
trippy-urban set the controls, let there be more light (1st part
especially), and pick up thy stetheoscope with its feel.
Amon Duul yes, and Can well Monster Movie was on 1969 but they where about before that. ------------- ONE SOLUTION REVOLUTION |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: January 18 2007 at 13:32
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Perhaps ECM albums will count as 'honorary Krautrock'? The label is based in Munich, after all...
If I remember it well, the earliest ECM albums by Norwegian guitarist Terje Rypdal ('Terje Rypdal' from 1972 and 'What comes After' from 1973) were strongly influenced by SAUCERFUL and other early Floyd - especially by Rick Wright's 'spacy' organ sound. Or maybe it was just something in the European air at that time... |
Posted By: Doobie
Date Posted: January 18 2007 at 18:25
Can´s Delay album taped 1968? probably not influencial on other groups since it was released until the 80´s but its a nice thread of evidence of what was going on around Germania at the time. I beg to differ on the influence of Pink Floyd over Kraut!. In the spirit of this type of statements it should be noted the importance of Eastern Music in the Kraut! movement, taking in account song structures and what not. (Guru Guru "UFO", Agitation Free "Malesch")  ------------- La ignorancia es el arma más poderosa que tienen los poderosos para mantenernos oprimidos, Lee y Lucha!!! |
Posted By: Witchwoodhermit
Date Posted: January 18 2007 at 19:20
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The Velvet Underground can not be overlooked, as influences go. Their 66 debut album, with tracks like Heroin and European Son, had a big inpact on early Can. Jefferson Airplane, and other San Fran bands at the time, also made a strong inpact on bands like Amon Duul and Faust. Those long California jam sessions, don't forget about them. ------------- Here I'm shadowed by a dragon fig tree's fan ringed by ants and musing over man. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: January 19 2007 at 03:00
Good call! VU is one of those incredibly influential group especially over Can in their Michael Mooney years. We looked into their inclusion (in proto-prog) two months back, but decided better to wait and that they did not represent progressive spirits enough. Reed was a little too much of a fake and their Warhol (another fake) link did them no service in our eyes.
as for Jefferson Airplane, little wonder I (with Frenando Raffani's help) included them in our database last summer . JA were precursors and often ahead of the game (even of the Beatles).
But, while I can really see the link between ADII and JA, I do not see it with Faust though
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Witchwoodhermit
Date Posted: January 19 2007 at 17:19
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Sean Trane- But, while I can really see the link between ADII and JA, I do not see it with Faust though
It really applies to Faust's first album. The long jam on "side 2" was said to have been influenced by the west coasters.
------------- Here I'm shadowed by a dragon fig tree's fan ringed by ants and musing over man. |
Posted By: flaxton
Date Posted: January 20 2007 at 13:15
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i think the german bands took a bit of everything from britain and america and put their own stamp on it. ------------- flaxton |
Posted By: Evans
Date Posted: January 20 2007 at 13:17
Just curious, Sean, what do you mean when you say that Reed and Warhol are fake? ------------- 
'Let's give it another fifteen seconds..' |
Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: January 20 2007 at 13:32
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I think I grasp what is meant. When I listen to the late 60s Floyd albums, I can see a big influence on the early Tangerine Dream and especially Amon Duul II. I've always felt ADII's 'Yeti's second disc owed a lot to Floyd's long, spacey improvisations like 'Careful With That Axe Eugene', 'Set The Controls...' and 'A Saucerful Of Secrets'.
As for Reed being fake, I can kind of see what Hugues means. One need only listen to the stuff the Velvet Underground recorded after John Cale left, such as the album 'Loaded', which is straight ahead rock and roll, and Cale's albums such as 'Academy In Peril' to see who was the key behind The Velvet Underground's innovation. Had Cale not been there, I think they'd have been just another rock and roll act. Lou Reed, lest we forget, had done some rock and roll tracks before he hooked up with Cale, and his solo career is mostly straight ahead rock. 'Metal Machine Music', his avant garde experiment, was hardly critically well received and I believe was considered contrived, whereas Cale continues to be held in high regard for his musical experimentation. And Warhol, though I may be way off beam here, doesn't seem to have been interested in the music to a great extent as far as I can ascertain- he saw the shock value in the outrageous stage shows and a chance to tie in his artwork and concepts in with that. Look at his 'trouser zip' cover for 'Sticky Fingers' and it's easy to see a man aiming for controversy and shock value, imho- plus it seems to have scratched up the records badly!! But The Velvet Underground I could also see as an influence on Krautrock. Them and the early Soft Machine (the first 2 albums imo) were a big influence on Faust, to my ears at least, though I believe Faust themselves had acknowledged that debt. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 04:45
I think James answers fairly well for me here below
Actually if Reed does represents a bit of the rock rebel spirit, he is also an insuffereblke snob and quite prtetentious for a man of such little talent. On stage, the man is simply an arsehole to the public when he sees it fit. I have only seen two guys being even more unacceptable behaviour than him: Van Morrisson (mr Star himself) and Peter Tosh (but once he gets on stage after having his band play one hour without him, he more than makes up for it). Reed can play a whole concert with his back turned to the crowd.
As for Warhol, I suspect that his artship attitude is more of tool to get to fame , than for art or a desire of exprssion. I always strongly dislike his works (which I view as copying Lichtenstein), and his ^ppeal is only due to hype and drugs underworld. VU was only a tool to get more attention. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: February 06 2007 at 11:59
I agree, there's a definite VU influence on Can's Delay 1968. ------------- "The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time." |
Posted By: Witchwoodhermit
Date Posted: February 06 2007 at 23:43
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^^^ and Monster Movie. ------------- Here I'm shadowed by a dragon fig tree's fan ringed by ants and musing over man. |