Seriously folks ....
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Site News, Newbies, Help and Improvements
Forum Name: Help us improve the site
Forum Description: Help us improve the forums, and the site as a whole
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34143
Printed Date: July 18 2025 at 14:04
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Topic: Seriously folks ....
Posted By: Guests
Subject: Seriously folks ....
Date Posted: February 07 2007 at 17:33
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As a relative newcomer to the PA community, I've come to a point where I don't see the point of contributing to threads or polls, or even starting new ones. There are some interesting posts, but they are few & far between. Too often, the main responses are either "yeah, man; or no, you're wrong"; the other extreme is the almost personal interpretation that brings out a close-minded & sometimes vicious argument that aims to demean the other person intelligence of taste. I have at times paraphrased other peoples' taglines (that little phrase at the bottom of a post that is usually an automatic part of their message), These are usually serious quotes or sometimes (rarely) humorous phrases that I suppose are to give us an insight in to that person's personality. I have seemingly made the error of re-phrasing some of them in a more humorous manner, not to make fun of the person, but rather as a way demonstrating that our little "discussions" are not about to cure the world's problems, nor are they in any way able to determine who is better or best (contributor or artist). I've had a private message indicating that the "target" of one of my "re-phrasings" did not take kindly to my making fun of it ; then to go on to explain the personal & honestly just a little scary meaning behind it. And this was from a senior contributor who I had been told was a very kind & helpful guide in his musical field of specialty. I've also gone through the experience of having a question I had posed dismissed out of hand, with various responses quickly descending to a personal level (which I myself added fuel to that fire), to the point of being told that I didn't have a clue about the subject at hand. THis from a total stranger who managed to come to this conclusion from 2 posts.These two separate persons must really have some extra sensory powers available to few that enabled them to know exactly who I am & what type of person I am (i.e. intelligence, knowledge, personality, character, intentions, etc...), as neither took the time to ask me to clarify or question whether I actually meant what they thought I meant. These are not the only ones that I have found to be overly serious or sensitive & quick to jump to unfounded conclusions. A great example is any thread, poll, lounge that says anything positive about the Collins' era Genesis. It seems that some are completely unable to offer a retort that is not simply dismissive of the other person's opinion, but also questioning of the very possibility that anyone could disagree with them. When I was 17, music & my favorite groups would have brought that sort of infantile response out of me. I am still as enthusiastic about music, but have matured & learned that my likes & dislikes are not OBJECTIVE, but SUBJECTIVE. Meaning, even if my knowledge of music or any genre or sub-genre, or because my music collection surpasses someone else's, that counts for absolutely nothing in my being able to tell others what IS or IS NOT good, or that their opinion is for lack of a better word "shiite" (no, not the islamic sect, but the scottish term for excrement) Prog may be a somewhat more serious form of music. But it is just music after all. Whether it is more complex, intellectual, experimental, psychedelic, classically or jazz or world beat influenced does not matter or raise its' impostance in relation to any other music. Our appreciation of Mozart vs Beethoven would not make a bit of difference to those who prefer Scarlatti. If you like Bachman Turner Overdrive more than the Beatles, well guess what - you are right - about what you like better. SO please, as a "community", if you take this music so seriouly as to commit the above infractions, take a break. Most people listen to music (artist or song or genre) because they like or find it interesting. Whether it's AC/DC or Ash Ra Temple, does not make oneself superior. For those of you who are Gabriel era Genesis fanatics, would you find arguing over David Lee Roth vs Sammy Hagar era Van Halen as meriting the same expenditure of such emotional messages ? Both camps (genesis & van halen) who have nothing better to do but to rage in print for one side or the other have one thing in common. They are under no pressure, obligation, or requirement to love, like or even listen to the other's music. Freedom, people, freedom. So as final adieu to the polls & lounges, so long ... IF you want to be taken seriously, learn to admit to yourself that you're giving an opinion, totally subjective & with the outside world totally oblivious to its' supposed importance or brilliance. Before you leap to the attack, ask for clarification. If someone seems so set in their way that you could call a dogma or theology, let them play with themselves. WHo needs the aggravation & what are the chances that you are going to change their minds ? I will still read the reviews, although I still find many to be from fans fawning over acts that are either established (Yes, I admit that Yes Close to the Edge is great, I've been listening to it for close to 30 years now) or of acts that are special because they appeal to a very select few, & that they cannot fathom why (the "every one but us" syndrome) no one else sees it the same way. Injustice is the distribution of food & wealth in this world of ours. It IS NOT the fact that your favorite group has sold less albums than Britney Spears. There are groups that I love, but are never going to achieve mass appeal for whatever reason (to me Gentle Giant should've been as big As Genesis & Yes, but they didn't, I still listen & love their albums just as much, even if most of my friends don't really "get" them, while we all enjoy Accept, but they never hit big as other HM groups of 80s such the hair farmer subgenre of hard rock) So I think I'll go back to Gnosis, Pandora & lastfm more often now. Their ressources may be more limited, but (and this DOES NOT apply to everyone who posts here) there is also less pomposity & self-importance. TO quote Frank Zappa, does humor belong in music ... then to re-phrase him as I think he wouldn't mind, even if he were alive - does music belong in humor. There is another quote of his I really adore - when he was asked about others opinions, which I will self-censor to increase the chances of this actually being accepted online - " I just don't give a f**k what others think. I make the music I make. I like the music I like. THis from what many of you consider to be one of the better avant-garde composers of our time, who loved Varese, but also 50s doo-wop groups & grungy old blues men. Tagline - It seems this Panta's Gruel was too Cruel for Youell, so with Panurge I'll make my way back from hell . (feel free to show your superiority if I've screwed up GG's lyrics)  |
Replies:
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: February 07 2007 at 17:37
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GODDAMNIT! You've screwed up a Gentle Giant lyric. They are like... the BEST BAND EVER (well, after CAN). I think you are an AWFUL person for doing that...
But seriously, I think you have a point...
You do what's best for you, even if I would prefer you stay...
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Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: February 07 2007 at 17:40
It's all a good debate, don't take it too personally and just enjoy all the great people we have here
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: February 07 2007 at 17:41
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yes, good man, I've steadily been questioning the point of many of the posts made here including my own - i've posted some nonsensical or misleading stuff here already and I'm not proud of it so I'm also going to fade into the background and concentrate more on the reviewing side of things.
------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: February 07 2007 at 17:41
Yeah, I totally disagree with the previous poster. That's all I say now
------------- 
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Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: February 07 2007 at 17:51
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Go in peace, and return whenever you feel like it. Subjectivity is a challenging gift - and for some it takes years to learn how to deal with it.
------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 07 2007 at 17:54
Well, if I re-phrase your tagline, would that change your mind ? Mind you, yours is one of the better ones. IT does give a sense that you're not taking yourself too serious. Motorhead has a similar line - I'm here tomorrow, but I'm gone today. Although I think that was a drug in-joke. I don't remember, but that might just be my short term memory ... On the GG lyric, my apologies. Oops I had another GG lyric as a retort, but then my mind got caught up in the chord changes ... |
inpraiseoffolly wrote:Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: February 07 2007 at 17:59
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My opinions are often objected against, so my opinions are probably very objective.
Just the fact your opinions are ofjen subject of ridiculisation, indeed does make your opinions subjective (and ridiculous for that matter).
anyway have fun not hanging about, maybe lurking can be your next objective. ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: February 07 2007 at 18:04
I guess I'm ok with trheads not being particulary interesting. What I can't stand is large posts. 
No, seriously... I do have books that I haven't even touched yet; I don't need posts that look like another one. ------------- ĦBeware of the Bee! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 07 2007 at 18:16
Sorry, that's is an accurate critique. It is a bad tendency of mine (That & using brackets) along with "quoting". Point well made, & taken. The rest of this post is 2 pages long, but written on an invisible keyboard I agree with my right to be wrong, just keep it short please. |
Posted By: chessman
Date Posted: February 07 2007 at 18:24
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May I say your post is a very eloquent and intelligent piece of work, sir.
I agree with all you said, and have found the same thing myself many times.
I always try to add, when saying I like or dislike something, that it is all down to personal taste. Music is just that - music, not world politics or war.
I always respect other posters views, and appreciate that some bands I don't care for, eg; ELP, King Crimson, Dream Theater, Radiohead, are other people's favourites.
And that is how it should be.
And many of the bands I enjoy do nothing for others.
That is how it should be, too.
It would be really boring if we all liked the same thing. We would have nothing to discuss!
 It will be a shame if you leave, but I respect your choice. Maybe you will post an item occasionally, just to let us know you are still around?
Enjoy whatever you do, anyway.
Some of us are open-minded and friendly!
 |
Posted By: mrgd
Date Posted: February 07 2007 at 19:00
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In my experience with PA, yes , there are a number of self opinionated barrow pushers who allow their personal preferences to blindly obstruct intelligent debate and discussion. These people are always so easy to spot. Intelligent rebuttal often highlights the selfishly held views of such contributors and shows them to be exctly what they are. If all else fails a small dose of levity, with or without a sprinkling of sarcasm may be employed as a last resort [I say last resort because I know it's not recommended by the posting policies].
There is a place for humour here if we think there is a place for humour in the world [and we all know the answer to this rhetorical question - it shouldn't need to be asked]. And, yes there is an element here who think they have almost some kind of prorietory right to opinions and conduct issues. I'm disappointed to hear that a senior contributor took some kind of offence at your play on words with the tagline. Without knowing the facts , it is hard to imagine that it could be so upsetting, disrespectful, arrogantly flippant or whatever to provoke the criticism you obviously encountered. I guess the only advice I can offer is that just because certain of the contributors here take themselves way too seriously, there's no reason for the rest of us too by stooping to their level in our disenchantment with them. It's obvious that like most of us, you have a lot to offer PA. I'd ask you to stay focussed on all the positive aspects of PA of which there are so many and instead, lets concentrate on undermining negative hate topics/posts , the proliferation of 5 star reviews [I just never realised one particular classification of music was responsible for so many masterpieces until I read PA's reviews], any topics which mention the word 'pretentious ' or the description 'bombastic', mind numbing and irrelevant A v.B polls and any threads which try to argue that Squire is a more technically proficient electric bass player than Wootton.....[that's a joke joyce]! 'Looking most decidedly older, greyer and more craggy than I did when 'In a Glasshouse came out' [Now, I shouldn't have to say this because I'm sure the majority will know what I'm about, but for those who don't, please refer to my sign off/tagline below]. ------------- Looking still the same after all these years... mrgd |
Posted By: The Whistler
Date Posted: February 07 2007 at 19:11
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I'm not pompous and overly-self important! It's just that everyone else here is stupid. ------------- "There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson |
Posted By: Mascodagama
Date Posted: February 07 2007 at 19:28
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Stick around Pantacruelgruel, the site needs more posters who aren't always right
....especially ones who appreciate Giant. ------------- Soldato of the Pan Head Mafia. We'll make you an offer you can't listen to. http://bandcamp.com/jpillbox" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp Profile |
Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: February 07 2007 at 19:42
You have absolutely NO IDEA what you're talking about!!  ------------- Jesus Gabriel |
Posted By: ClemofNazareth
Date Posted: February 07 2007 at 21:02
He must be referring to this guy...
 ------------- "Peace is the only battle worth waging." Albert Camus |
Posted By: SolariS
Date Posted: February 07 2007 at 21:07
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In my experience, PA has the most kind and open minded forum community I've been on. I've never felt like someone was posting threatening comments or anything like that, which is unusual for internet forums. Perhaps if you've felt that way, then there was just a misunderstanding. It's hard to know a person's intentions if you've never even met them. As for the whole objective/subjective thing, I don't believe that anyone really thinks their music is objectively better, even if you say something like it is. Not every post has to be followed by an IMO (in my opinion) because it's almost impossible not to say something that isn't just an opinion, and I think that's generally understood. Here's an objective sounding question: Do you think that the music you listen to is better than everyone elses? Here's an objective sounding answer: Yes Here's the actual subjective meaning of the answer: Yes, the music I listen to is better...FOR ME. It's really impossible to make an objective evaluation about music, because music doesn't have a well defined function. The purpose of music is inherently different for each individual. Some people listen to music as background music. Some people listen to music to make them feel a certain way. Others are looking at music in a critical/artistic sense. If music doesn't have a singular function that is consistent for each individual, then you CANNOT make an objective value judgment about it. In other words, nobody can say objectively whether or not certain music is good because there's always the question good at what?? Things can only be assigned value based on how they fulfill their function, and if that function changes from person to person, then it is impossible to make objective claims about it. Anyway, sorry to get so heavy but I just don't have a problem with people saying their music is better because even if they don't mean it to be a subjective comment, it actually is. That being said, I think most people don't try to make objective claims anyway. If you want, you can start using the acronym with me. DGYPIAB I'll let you figure it out .-------------  
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 07 2007 at 21:10
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I think so, but I wonder if the picture icon is a giveaway about how serious he is, or if he's just trying to start a battle to liven things up. P.S. neat tagline, nice to see some a good ol' bit of Canuck wisdom courtesy of Klaatu. Whoops , forgot to quote the post that mentioned the critique of Kansas from Pompusass. It does make me think he's going way overboard just for fun, kind of like the way Dan AYkroyd & Jane ??? did years ago on their commentary bit on SNL. |
Posted By: red.sector_a
Date Posted: February 07 2007 at 21:46
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well, im new here, and i quite like the place. unlike most prog boards, i dont really sense this "elitist" attitude that a lot of prog fans can have. so i give this place my thumbs up..  ------------- "...the only excuse for not knowing, is not wanting to know." |
Posted By: one hand clap
Date Posted: February 08 2007 at 00:39
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Speaking of "pomposity & self-importance" as you say in your novel up there. You just spent a significant chunk of your life telling everyone how you're better than they are so you're leaving. There are four words I can think of that sum up what kind of person would write something like that... I'll give you a hint. The first word starts with a "P" Them there's an "and" The next starts with an "S" and the last starts with an "I" You can figure out the rest. PS. My music is much much better than yours |
Posted By: mrgd
Date Posted: February 08 2007 at 00:52
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PandSI. Pantacruelgruel's a pandsi! Who would have thought. ------------- Looking still the same after all these years... mrgd |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: February 08 2007 at 02:20
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People get too wound up by anyone who has a strong opinion and wants to share it.I go on other forums and they are only any good because: 1 The opinions are interesting 2 All opinions are respected 3 No personal attacks on other posters 4 Banter and a bit of light hearted 'chit chit' is indulged in.Not just deadly serious messages all the time.
Generally this site is okay but perhaps it suffers occasionally from the fact that there are too many blokes! A few Ladies present usually promotes a general friendlier atmosphere and stops some of the abrasiveness that you can otherwise get.
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: February 08 2007 at 02:23
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^
Indeed |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: February 08 2007 at 02:25
Thanks for the compliment! This must be the first time in my life in which I am not accused of being disruptive to the atmosphere, on the contrary.... However, I for one am under no illusions that women are less confrontational than men. As a Moderator, I think the general atmosphere of these forums is rather good, though I would tend to agree with the fact that too many threads are far from being imaginative. |
Posted By: The Whistler
Date Posted: February 08 2007 at 03:47
That dude...is my new hero. ------------- "There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: February 08 2007 at 03:57
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I think you're being a tad too sensitive Panta. In an ideal world, what you say would be the case. There is a balance though between being a closed community who only admit people by invitation, and being open to all. We are of course the latter, and as such we take people as we find them. Yes it can be frustrating when people do not behave in the way you would want, and we do have a significant minority whose communication skills are in need of servicing. That's just a reflection of life though. The important thing is that you give to and take from the site as suits you. |
Posted By: Australian
Date Posted: February 08 2007 at 04:38
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To me, this place just seems to be a cesspool of mindless rhetorical crap. ------------- 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: February 08 2007 at 05:10
You can also try my website (http://www.PROGtology.com) ... it's "extremely democratic", and even genres are assigned by the community. Let me know what you think about it! ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: February 08 2007 at 11:48
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Hi Claude, I had not seen this thread yet.
I think you got a little riled from being rebuffed in your Ange thread. And you say yourself you are relatively new to not only this forum, but forums in general.
The person who rebuffed you probably does not realize that from a strictly casual POV, Ange can be seen as the most important French band, because once you azre plunged into the infernal madness of obscure bands, bands like Ange are somewhat discarded as lightweights (especially given the passionate nature of Zeuhl music).
So your fist thread was not a success, (neither's was Mozart's first notes on his violin), but don't let this get to you. I personally think that you will fit along quite nicely if you allow your skin to grow thicker and not let the first pique get to you.
And I can tell you that other forums are harder to survive because it is hell out there. I post on Progressive Ears and this is not a skin you need but a thick hide and a solid command of English. If you have been on RYM, you know how rough it can be (just go to the out of music topics to see the bloody jungle it is.
Please allow yourself the time to stay, and please enter them reviews on rare Quebec albums. They are much needed. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: February 08 2007 at 12:05
First off, why thank you... and second off, if you did change my tag-line...
I would have to hunt you down, throttle you, stick you inside an atomic bomb, and leave you there to starve to death while listening to the U.N. condemn random events...
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 08 2007 at 22:07
Ssshhh! the U.N. doesn't know about the random event generator ... |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 08 2007 at 22:18
P.S. Mr one hand clap, from your stunning verbal blow, I assume your other hand gets more "exercise" than your mind . While writing with one hand, please give the other a rest - then figure out the rest once you come out of the "rest" room (after you've washed your hands)...Well ... that's a hole in the ground ... |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 08 2007 at 22:31
Actually the name was the best I could come up with at the time as Pantagruel & Panurge were already taken. I'm actually not very cruel, except when I insist on quoting Vogon Poetry to my (ex)friends. Well, that & when I break like the wind. Mind you, putting that last comment out is likely to bring out the intellectuals in this forum. Anyway, I'm going to the gym now to do my workout, One pushup, then one beer, then back here for more intelligent ridiculing, or rather to see if there has been any yet (hahahahaha, choke choke, whoa my hernia hurts). Oh, I just got a reading on the level of intellect & importance of my reviews & posts so far ...it seems the machine is not working as it's not giving a reading. The needle is at zero ???  We have found the problem & the problem is us (so sayeth Pogo, so sayeth Claudo) |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: February 08 2007 at 22:57
Neither do I... By the way, you've fallen for our trap... by posting in this thread you have become a senior member... PA now owns your soul... (closest I could find to an evil laugh...  ... how about an evil smile...
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 09 2007 at 00:00
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This site and forum is just fine. There are a lot of serious discussions going on and also a lot of funny rubbish which I think is just as necessary as the serious stuff. Don't take everything too serious, life is too f**king short.... I know what you're talking about, there are people that post only when they got a chance to "shine" by insulting and attacking others (I was on the receiving end of such a brillinat communication, because someone didn't like what I said and posted viciously for the first and only time since I've been here).... But 90% of the members are cool, great people that you can have a great discussion with... and even if you think you don't, well, this is music my friend, we're not discussing how to cure cancer or to eliminate poverty in the world, if somebody just goes off-topic or off-track, what the hell, nobody's going to die. You spent like an hour writing that, didn't you... then you really don't want to leave... believe me, if you did, you just could have...left.
What other forum will give you the chance to be illuminated by The T? Not one! Well, maybe the "The T appreciation forum" that will be online in a couple of months when my fans from around the world finally wake up.....  ------------- 
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 09 2007 at 00:27
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I was trying to think up an evil simile, but I couldn't find my dictionary to make sure I actually understood the real meaning of simile. Unfortunately, couldn't find a thesaurus to check comparisons, oh well. But seriously, how do I set myself up with a tagline ?  |
Posted By: mrgd
Date Posted: February 09 2007 at 02:24
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Well, I thought it was bang out of order for ONE HAND CLAP to call you a PANDSI when referring to 'pomposity and self importance'. I always thought it was spelt 'PANSY'!!! ------------- Looking still the same after all these years... mrgd |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 09 2007 at 07:26
Well, I can only quote the great Pye Dubois, lyricist for Max Webster Toronto Tontos, Vegas babies' transit Arctic markets, fronting Spanish galleons Free pomplicities, not free when in public Put down a little life from a morning cosmic Bonjour les amies de mania, nous sommes fous Ne cherchez pas pourquoi Pas de chat, pas de deux, nous sommes fous Put down a little life, from a morning cosmic P.S. I still think One Hand Clap was concentrating more on what he was doing with his other hand |
Posted By: mrgd
Date Posted: February 11 2007 at 22:09
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Claude, good to see you're still here. Stick with us! ------------- Looking still the same after all these years... mrgd |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 11 2007 at 23:30
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Oh, the joys of Bipolar disorders . That, & I'm developing a more enjoyable way to confront overly serious posters. Inane comments, irrelevant questions, queries regarding their self-esteem, semi-obscure references to their taglines, avatars/names, or musical tastes. That & adding a clear caveat at the beginning to make sure that it's understood that I'm stating an opinion, or even better, begging people to prove my ignorance by kindly guiding me to enlightenment. P.S. I'm playing my recent Quebec Prog purchases a lot lately, so I've gotten the prog bug again. P.P.S. This is also the only outlet I have to indulge in my penchant for comments in parentheses, quotations marks, asides, & general ramblings P.P.P.S. I've also noted an increase in posters ganging up on overbearing musical know-it-alls, & having fun amongst themselves, rather than responding directly to the guilty party. |
Posted By: mrgd
Date Posted: February 13 2007 at 01:02
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'at a boy! ------------- Looking still the same after all these years... mrgd |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: February 15 2007 at 02:56
Cruelgruel; From those two posts, it was obvious that you were unaware of the enormous amount of french bands that made France the most interesting country for prog in the late seventies. I wasn't being nice, I know. I did however, stick to topic and never made out of context assumtions about you, or your personality. As you did plenty on my behalf. Anyway, I thought we more or less worked this out later in the thread? Sure, just like you I can be a pompous ass at times, but most of my posts here are friendly, and about loving music of most flavours. And like you, I try add a little humour and irony to my posts. Still I don't find myself laughing over your posts, and you thought I was dead serious when I wrote that I was damned proud of being a senior member here! Its clear that we don't communicate very well in that department. Once again someone's taking themselves waay too seriously here. And this time I know its not me! If stuff like this is enough to make you want to leave: Goodbye Cruel Gruel, Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 15 2007 at 18:18
Actually, if you refer to the poll re : Phill Collins : we decided tonight, it seems there is an amusing way to respond to people like myself & others who may occasionally go overboard in taking some discussions too seriously. I apologise again. My lights were on , but I obviously wasn't home in a manner of speaking. I wanted to explain how things can quickly get out of hand if "posters" aren't careful (myself included) & should've given more thought to using personal examples that were easily associated to other members of the PA community. I know when I'm Wrong & I know when I'm Right; it's the knowing when I am that I'm still working on |