Prog cd trades on the Forum?
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Site News, Newbies, Help and Improvements
Forum Name: Help us improve the site
Forum Description: Help us improve the forums, and the site as a whole
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=36567
Printed Date: July 18 2025 at 13:57
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Topic: Prog cd trades on the Forum?
Posted By: tonal
Subject: Prog cd trades on the Forum?
Date Posted: April 07 2007 at 22:25
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Is there a place and is it okay to trade cd's on the forum? I did a quick search and I didn't turn anything up! I think it would be great if we could setup at least a place to post and trade with others on the forum!
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Replies:
Posted By: Arrrghus
Date Posted: April 07 2007 at 22:26
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Well, do you mean by mail? If not, you're promoting an illegal activity. ------------- 
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Posted By: tonal
Date Posted: April 07 2007 at 22:36
| ... sorry, I did mean by mail. |
Posted By: Arrrghus
Date Posted: April 07 2007 at 22:40
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Oh. -------------
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Posted By: martinn
Date Posted: April 07 2007 at 22:51
suuuure....  |
tonal wrote:Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 07 2007 at 22:58
hahhaha.... yes I thought that is what he meant as well. I know that in the past the site has allowed people the sell their CD's here, with a disclaimer of course that the site is not responsible for all deals gone bad. Probably the same would hold true with trading, but lets face it, with paranoia and distrust rampant in our collective psyches. If you aren't an established member here... you aren't going to have many takers. I know I am not sending my DT CD to someone I don't know, in the hopes I get a Streisand album in return. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: April 07 2007 at 23:16
Even if you don't get the Streisand album, you lose the DT, so you win! -------------   |
Posted By: martinn
Date Posted: April 07 2007 at 23:22
Ohhh actual CD's? I thought he meant sharing mp3's like in a blog or so. Sorry, my mistake  |
Posted By: DividedAlien
Date Posted: April 07 2007 at 23:38
| I have a ton of stuff that I'm willing to trade. Anybody send me a PM if you're interested. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 07 2007 at 23:44
hahhahah... yeah...that's right.... anyone who wants a autographed copy of Dream Theaters - Scenes from a Memory just PM me with a CD offer.....but wait... PM me in the next hour and you will recieve as a free bonus... a signed copy of my famous ProgArchives review of the album. but wait there is more... the first member to PM me with recieve a limited addition of RDM's-Contaminazione signed again by ProgArchives chief of Italian prog.  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Tiresias
Date Posted: April 07 2007 at 23:44
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I've done snail-mail trading before. Order a lot at once, as it's not economical to do otherwise. Also, have a list of stuff around for reference (if you're corresponding through e-mail.) If you're chatting over AIM, tell the person what genres you have a lot of. For instance, I have a lot of Jazz, Jam band, live prog and post rock. ------------- Wh'ghal ng'fth mglw'y Ry'leh, Cthulhu fhtagn... 
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Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: April 07 2007 at 23:54
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I tried this once and it failed miserably. There's a site somewhere that does this in a more organized and culpable fashion, but I don't remember what it was called.
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Posted By: tonal
Date Posted: April 08 2007 at 00:03
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Well, just a suggestion.. I belong to the forum over at progressiveears as well as this one... there they have a great trading system setup. I've done a couple big trades myself and everything worked out perfectly... A lot of prog cd's can be hard to come by and god knows prog listeners usually have nice size cd collections... sometimes it's nice to be able to move out some old stuff for some new stuff! Anyhow, I was just wondering, thanks!
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 08 2007 at 00:12
I might keep that site in mind..... I might be having a bunch of prog CD's to get rid off later this summer ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: tonal
Date Posted: April 08 2007 at 00:17
| I use lala.com some as well... it's pretty interesting, not for everybody, but I've got some good stuff there by trading a lot of my "junk" cds. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 08 2007 at 01:08
Sorry to say iyt, but this is also illegal:
 FBI Warning New Trading material could be considered illegal distributuion if an etensive interpretation is done, the text says:
For more information:
I don't want to be a spoiler but my duty as member is to protect the site so as always I have to say for legal purpose:
Prog Archives doesn't encourage, admits or even accepts the use this site to promote illegal activities. If you are do this, it's at your own risk but please don't involve the site.
Prog Archives is not part in any private trading of copyrighted material done by their members and each person is responsible for their own posts.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 08 2007 at 01:11
  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: April 08 2007 at 03:36
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Selling new or refurbished CDs or vinyls is hardly an "illegal activity" ... that's not what they meant by "distribution".
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 08 2007 at 03:39
I think Ivan was saying that 'swapping CD's' is illegal... or could be... or whatever legalese lawyers speak ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: April 08 2007 at 03:46
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Swapping CDs ... I can't see what should be illegal about that. As long as we're not talking about burned CDs but originals, the swapping is totally fine. I've never heard of any case against people who give away CDs for free (that's what it is - you give your CD to someone for no charge and receive another CD from that person for no charge) ... not here (Germany) and not in the U.S..
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 08 2007 at 03:50
I don't either... but while I love busting the balls of lawyers on points of prog...I tend to stay away from debating them on points of law hahhahah It's probably another of the long list of laws that is on the books but unenforceable ..and rarely if ever applied. I'm sure the site policy is defined by the law.... not the practical applications of it. IF it is illegal. it shouldn't be done here I guess ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: April 08 2007 at 04:12
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^ then what about the garage sales, or second hand CD stores ... so they're all illegal too?
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 08 2007 at 04:22
^ (you and your damn arrows ) I'm sure Ivan will tell us, the letter of the law on those items. Jesus... in the state of Virginia I think Oral Sex is still illegal.  . god knows what laws are on the books. That why Ivan needs the additional tag of 'PA's consigliore'
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: April 08 2007 at 04:29
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The international law says that the original owner of the copyright must get a 5% "suite right" from any re-selling of the object he initially created and sold. In my country it is the artist unions that collect these rights. Therefore I assume that re-selling a cd you own without having the copyright owner take his 5% it's illegal. Not like that would matter, but the site can't/mustn't promote that. However donation, mutual donation etc. is OK, I guess.
------------- "PA's own GI Joe!" 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: April 08 2007 at 04:50
Used CDs are offered on Ebay, Oral Sex is not (at least last time I checked). ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 08 2007 at 05:02
hmmm..... leaving that one alone in the spirit of the holiday but it is so tempting... andu - again the differences between the written law.. and the practical applications of it. Laws written to protect the artist, but just plain unenforceable. I do agree though, if it is illegal, it should not sanctioned here. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Paradox
Date Posted: April 08 2007 at 07:07
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Is there any way of actually finding out, without having to read several books on music copyright laws?
"Is there a lawyer in the house?" ------------- 
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Posted By: andu
Date Posted: April 08 2007 at 07:12
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This is 99% sure, donation is free of any obligations. Still I'd wait for Ivan's confirmation.
------------- "PA's own GI Joe!"
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 08 2007 at 07:23
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Here's an interesting article: http://https://tv.ku.edu/news/2005/11/17/cd-buy-back-market-growing/ - http://https://tv.ku.edu/news/2005/11/17/cd-buy-back-market-growing/ And another: http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/05/07/business/swap.php - http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/05/07/business/swap.php According to US law it is not illegal -- that's why Lala.com (online Cd swapping can exist). The doctrine of first sale allows people to re-sell and swap CDs or records as they see fit. But there is an ethical dilemma in encouraging such practices: many people buying a CD rip it, then re-sell it, or swap it. And the cycle (recycling) continues. That's copyright infringement. I think one can get into potential difficulty when swapping CDs across borders (certainly when selling). ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: April 08 2007 at 07:24
You know how the saying goes ... "two lawyers, three opinions". I'm inclined to follow Shakespeare's advice! ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: April 08 2007 at 10:27
If it is, I better stop giving them for birthday and Christmas presents...... ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: April 08 2007 at 10:28
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btw what is a 'refurbished' CD?
------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Meddler
Date Posted: April 08 2007 at 10:32
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^ Using a CD cleaner on a broken (scratched) CD? That's my best guess. ------------- [IMG]http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i165/amorfous/astro-1.jpg"> |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 08 2007 at 10:53
of course we do Two actually that I know of..------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: April 08 2007 at 11:01
| There have been similar suggestions before. PA cannot of course accept any responsibility if things go wrong, so beware! |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: April 08 2007 at 12:14
My mistake ... I picked up the word at Ebay.com, but of course it only applies to hardware, like for example CD players. The right word would have been "used". ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 08 2007 at 12:23
One thing is that RIAA doesn't care about and another one is being legal.
The only persons allowed to sell CDs, DVDs or Video Games are the stores with licence.
Allowing a friend to copy a cassette from your albums is illegal in most of the world (Not in Germany according to the copy of the law you once sent me), of course RIAA can't do a thing about that, but it's illegal.
E-Bay pays a licence to sell used stuff, Prog Archive doesn't.
Distribution is the act of dispensing something, that's all, in the new FBI warning (The most recent) is clearly stated that you can't even play the DVD in hospitals, curches, public shows, etc and it also says that lending or trading it is illegal.
They normally can't do anything, but if they want to close a place that tells people which albums are bad, so people don't buy them, they will surely sue you even if they loose.
Small sites as Prog Archives can't adfford a long legal process against RIAA, so if they sue you, even if they loose, they will place the site in deep trouble.
That's a risk I believe we shouldn't take.
Iván
BTW: Paradox, yes there is one lawyer, moi (I ask excuses for that) and usually work with the Peruvian version of Copyright Office called INDECOPI, most of the rules are identical, being that most countries have signed either the Berne Conventoion or are part of the WIPO that unifies legislation about Copyright. -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: April 08 2007 at 12:47
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^ ok, have it your way. I'm just very sure that I don't become a "DVD distributor" by selling my used DVD on Ebay ... not even in the USA. Check the US Ebay page for prohibited items: http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/items-ov.html - http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/items-ov.html They don't mention CDs and DVDs at all, except for export/import regulations which indeed are an issue. But it's not like you have to pay an extra fee when selling an used CD which Ebay then hands over to the rights holders. Remember that Ebay is only a marketplace ... they don't sell anything themselves, the members do. But I agree that if there's any risk involved then PA should not allow it.  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 08 2007 at 13:00
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^^^ Face it Mike,. the problem even lawyers have is that the law can be interpreted in several different ways.
For some people distribution can be selling two or three items, for others there has to be a continuous act.
For example in Perú you can have 8 grams of pot for private use, it's not a crime, but if you have more than this amount, you're considered a distributor and you will go to jail, most pot smokers have more than 8 grams but the law is clear.
Yes E-Bay pays a fee to be allowed to advertise in their site the selling of copyrighted material (Probably apercentage of what they receive frompropaganda), I know that because here in Perú if you have a barber shop and play the radio, you have to pay to the APDAYC (Peruvian version of RIAA) copyright fees, I know about a person who refused to do that and was almost sued.
They charge you everything.
Face it, RIAA doesn't need to win a trial, they only need to sue you, send you 556 laewyers, 1'000,000 copies opf documents and you're done because to deal with that you have to hire a legal firm.
Legal firms in USA and Canada are very expensive, that's why they hold the pan by the habdle and leave you the hot part, they can afford a two years trial, you cant, they don't need to win in order to vanish you, just suing almost any person is deep sh!t.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: tonal
Date Posted: April 09 2007 at 13:15
| So, used cd stores, pawn shops, and garage sales are all illegal unless you buy a license?? So, if I want to have a yard sale I need to contact the RIAA and buy a license first... Well, god knows they are really poor and really need that money! Sometimes I really just can't believe how our world has come to the way it is today! Not that this issue really matters, but it's just reflective of all the other ridiculous things that are happening all around us! Money is swiftly becoming, if not already, the number one component in destroying our rights and freedoms!! I think it's so funny that we pay for something legaly... therefore OWN it, but then we are not allowed to sell what we paid for! I guess in a way it's sort of like you car, house, or land... you don't ever actually own it anyhow, right? |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 09 2007 at 20:20
Tonal: I don't agree with most of this regulations, I'm just playing the role of the Devil's Advocate, placing us in the wrst possible scenario to avoid risks for Prog Archoives.
The problem is that if you buy a house or a car you own them and you can do whatever you want with them (Of course with the limits established by law to real state property and traffic).
If you buy a CD or a DVD, you own the plastic BUT NOT THE MUSIC, the property of the music remains in hands of the copyright holder.
You only buy a licence for domestic use of this music, READ THE FBI WARNING, you can't play it in public, share it, lend it, trade it (which in some cases is mentioned) play it on festivals, hospitals, churches, schools, charity, etc.
If you owned the music you could play it anywhere without any limit, so it's obvious it's not the case.
Now Mike, I don't believe if you sell or trade an album you're a distributor, but in Civil law you don't have the advantages the accused has in criminal trials, they sue you and YOU HAVE TO PROVE THAT YOU HAVE NOT VIOLATED THE COPYRIGHT LIMITS.
That's the power entities like RIAA have, in theory downloading is not a crime (You are using free and public media instruments), but uploading is (Because you're taking other person's property and giving it for free or for profit to a third part).
Despite this is clear, RIAA sues downloaders knowing that they can't afford the legal costs for a $ 500,000.00 trial, so probably innocent people has to settle with RIAA and accept to pay sums of money of US$ 12,500 as average.
I believe RIAA wanted to sue Microsoft for providing people with PC's capable of breaking the law (The precedent is in the Betamax case, Somy was sued by Disney studios among others for providing people with machines able to duplicate copyrighted material, the trial never really ended because both parts had enougyh money to make the trial last centuries and most USA citizens already had a VCR).
But they didn't sued Microsoft, because Mr. Gates has enough money and lawyers to destroy their claims and probably RIAA will end paying Microsoft money for harrassment, so RIAA went to the weaker link, the final user, the one that can't fight with them.
They have the power and the money, they don't have to win, they only need to sue you and judges must accept the cases even if they don't agree because everybody has the right to sue other persons.
Iván
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 10 2007 at 11:06
I agree with Mike. Used record shops exists and do not infrige the laws. Plus the fact that the site is Canadian makes the FBI's advice not relevant. .
Actually about three years back I had asked mailto:M@X - M@X and Maani the permission to start this, and I had gotten an OK back then. So I posted my list and some 40 Cds got redistributed (Martin Hdfsch responsible for almost half of them). It was selling, not even trading. But all Cds were legal. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: April 11 2007 at 02:29
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^ one problem however is that some CDs may not be imported into certain countries. Usually the big CD shops don't care, so for example in Germany you can order a CD from the USA through Amazon.com/Caiman/etc. which isn't available in local German stores. If you then decide to offer the CD on Ebay.de you might get sued if the IFPI notices.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 12 2007 at 07:40
I thought we were talking of setting up a thread with the list of what you choose to be getting rid of, and members just PMing you.
I haven't touched E-Bay or Amazon yet.
Not about to, either ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: OpethGuitarist
Date Posted: April 12 2007 at 12:24
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^^ im actually wanting to sell a few CDs of my own here because I think they would get more notice here than in an online auction i pm'd Jody about it I wonder how he will feel ------------- back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: April 12 2007 at 13:45
I absolutely can't see any risk in that ... if people simply say "check out these CDs/DVDs I don't need anymore - get in touch with me if you want them" then that would be perfectly fine IMO. Of course they could also simply set up an Ebay auction and post the link ... it would certainly increase their profit. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 14 2007 at 07:38
This is frequently done on Progressive Ears and on Rate Your Music ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |