Does the recent PA policy harm the genuin
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Site News, Newbies, Help and Improvements
Forum Name: Help us improve the site
Forum Description: Help us improve the forums, and the site as a whole
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40327
Printed Date: July 18 2025 at 00:31
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Does the recent PA policy harm the genuin
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Subject: Does the recent PA policy harm the genuin
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 18:08
|
Hello fellow progheads.
Early 2004 I joined Prog Archives, I started to write biographies and then reviews and in the end I joined the Forum. Because that's the place where all discussions start, I want to tell you about this more and more mounting frustration. When I decided to work for Prog Archives, I considered myself as a kind of progrock missionary who wanted to tell everybody about the 'Progrock Truth'. Gradually I noticed that this site hosted more and more bands that you can describe as 'not basically progrock oriented', to start with The Beatles, then Led Zeppelin, The Doors, Jefferson Airplane, Iron Maiden, JM Jarre, Santana and recently The Who. Some ended in the category Proto-prog but in fact you can say that most bands are way from those bands that were on Prog Archives early 2004. I have to admit that I love most aforementioned bands but my point of concern is that the focus is no longer on progressive rock but also very much on prog music, prog-related music and progressive pop. When you enter Prog Archives at this moment, it's another world if you compare it to entering Prog Archives early 2004. Instead of trying to focus on supporting the interesting lesser and unknown progrock bands, the Prog Archives homepage anno 2007 delivers mainly reviews about known and legendary progrock bands and lots of prog music, prog-related and progressive pop bands. Prog Archives is still a huge source of progrock bands but I am afraid that the recent PA band addition policy will lead to an archive that will host more non-prog bands than interesting lesser and unknown progrock bands and I am very concerned about that. I am looking forward to your opinion and I would like to emphasize that this thread is meant as a constructive attempt to clear things! So what's your opinion about my story?
|
Replies:
Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 18:17
|
Yes it does. It's ironic how some collabs go add Maiden, Doors or The Who thus condemning discussions and promotion of obscurer prog bands to death in the near future, and then complain how everyone's discussing the controversial additions  Regarding the idea that these bands will come up in searches and perhaps convert some people to prog, I have a better suggestion. How about Max changes the title of the front page(the one that appears on top of your browser window) from "prog rock ultimate discography with mp3 and reviews" to "Paris Hilton, Myspace, Harry Potter, Lindsay Lohan, Britney Spears, George Bush" and watch the traffic skyrocket... and overall we'll have more prog converts than all these bands bring together  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 18:27
|
Well The Miracle, I understand your point, it's not easy to understand why Erik Neuteboom created this thread while he added The Doors..
 That's true but "everybody is allowed to act crazy" without losing his identity, OK?About your post, the cynical overtones are hilarious, I hope it will move mailto:M@X - M@X towards some action, his biography picture (a happy and smiling mailto:M@X - M@X like Steve Hackett on the album Cured) points at preferring a status quo
 |
Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 18:42
I just think that it's best to concentrate on prog rather than worry about borderline bands. Every time a new prog-related band is added, we set the limit a little further, making it a bit hypocritical that some others aren't here. The argument "Y is 1000 times more prog than X, why aren't they here" aren't entirely useless(if correct). For example, one could argue that Black Sabbath had as much influence or significance as The Who, or that Hendrix had as many prog elements as the Doors, but even more influence. Our prog metal specialists believe that Metallica had two fully prog albums which logically should warrant inclusion since the same thing(2 proggy albums) got Blind Guardian in. There's plenty of bands pot there that could be proven more prog/more influential than some of our prog-related additions, but do they really belong here? No way! If by status quo you mean just stopping with prog related additions now, that's a great idea  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 18:50
|
We don't need to stop allowing prog related bands, but we do need to curb the rampant discussions over "yes they do belong here" or "I'll add then band when Lucifer buys a fur coat." It should all be placed into one thread in the prog related forum. I know that thread will probably collapse, but it'll serve as a lesson.
It doesn't help that we collabs as a whole don't promote lesser known stuff. I admit I'm ill equipped because I'm just know getting into the obscure. Peopel like Erik, Rico, and Hugues would be great for recommendations, as I've already gotten some great new bands to listen to from erik's posts. Pr isn't the problem, flame wars are and admins need to come down a little harder on the PR discussions.
|
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 18:51
| If we stopped adding bands to prog-related and proto-prog then we would be able to concentrate on some of the lesser known prog bands on this website and maybe add a few more obscure bands, but discuss it in the forum instead of just adding the band. |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 18:55
Thanks for posting 
The Miracle, you are right about pushing the limits every time a little bit further with prog-related bands but it remains subjective because in my opinion The Doors are part of progrock history and to others The Who or The Jimi Hendrix Experience are. So who decides? In my opinion the problem is that mailto:M@X - M@X wanted The Beatles and then the floodgates were opened, now we don't have good reasons to stop it because Iron Maiden, JM Jarre and Osibisa are on this site, who has good objections to stop The Jimi Hendrix Experience, Cream, The Stranglers and The Tubes ...?
|
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 19:16
|
I find it really quite ironic to see a thread like this opened by someone who added some of the most controversial acts so far. Why don't we try to be honest for once, and say that only what WE think is prog should be added? Erik obviously doesn't think Maiden or Osibisa are prog, while he thinks The Doors, Jimi Hendrix, The Stranglers and such are - however, there are other forum members whose opinion is just the opposite. So, where does that leave us? Personally, I think the whole PP/PR question is being used as a convenient scapegoat to cover up a multitude of other sins. Just look at the most recent active topics on the forum's home page: is it PP/PR's fault if all you can see are posts relating to games or the Velvet Room? Or if threads/polls about more obscure acts quickly fall into oblivion? Could it have to do, for instance, with the fact prog CDs are not exactly widely available, unless they are by the best-known acts? Or that many people have run out of ideas as to the contents of new threads? BTW, perhaps none of you noticed that yesterday I started a thread in this same section which addressed the same concerns. It would've been nice if the people who posted in this thread had made some comments in mine too, but I think I should've learnt the lesson by now. |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 19:24
|
Sorry for not posting in your thread Raff but I didn't want to repeat what had already been said about 20 times. As to your questions it is probably all 3 are true. Though we do discuss obscure stuff occasionally in the VR. Obscurities fall into oblivion because they are obscure, once they become well-known and popular people will star complaining of an over emphasis on that band. And the fact that CDs aren't widely available does have something to do with it. There needs to be a delicate balance but we all have our opinions on how things should be weighed, so the balance will always be off for some people. |
Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 19:27
I take what I need from this siet, as everyone else. My personal definition of prog is received here as much as everyone else's; there's plenty of info for everyone, and the definition of any concept changes with time (and some other coordinates). Besides, we are in 2007, this is just a website and nobody is going to die because the name "Iron Maiden" is written here in html text. Now, about Bowie...  ------------- ¡Beware of the Bee! |
erik neuteboom wrote:Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 19:51
|
As a non-staff member, the Prog-Related and Proto-Prog categories don't bother me at all. I largely ignore them when searching the archives, preferring to search other categories. I'm not a missionary here (though I'd like to play some small in progelitising the masses), I usually learn about Prog music from others here (through the bio-pages), rather than making "first-hand" discoveries or making suggestions for inclusion. Okay, I do want Cream here under Proto-Prog, and I don't even listen to the band anymore. For me, tis site has not lost enough integrity through controversial inclusions to make it a less-than-valuable resource. I don't agree with some of it, but that's fine. I expect that a lot of what I like listed under the Prog categories here, while progressive music, would not be considered suitable by a Prog purist. Like I said in another thread, due to personal bias, I'd like to see more progressive music here that is not, or hardly, on the rock side (especially in Avant Prog). Stuff like ZNR that is suitable, I think. Some Prog-Related, and Proto, I consider sufficiently Prog for Prog categories. As long as groups are well-grouped, it doesn't bother me. However, it would be better if so many people did not concentrate in writing reviews for non-Prog albums (I include albums by bands that were Prog at one time, but changed direction) and less time was spent on writing non-Prog category bios and more on Prog ones. Of course some reviews are necessary to alert one when an album is not progressive (talking when a Prog band releases a pop album, for instance). Prog-related and Proto-Prog can certainly cover a HUGE number of bands, and it's nigh impossible to really say where one should really draw the line. I've half-wondered if there should be a Related to Prog Related category, a Related to Related to Prog Related Category, and a Kind of Proggy, Maybe category. And how about a Proto Proto-Prog and Proto Prog Related category? Or just a "Music that Progheads might like" category. Hehe. Oh, I was going to make a point, but it seems my rambling has limited my time. I agree with those that say that PP and PR should be left off the main most popular list. As for the forums, I like less the huge amount of discussion about non-music topics, than non-prog music topics. See active list at some times (I'm not suggesting non-prog forum discussions be excluded from the list, but I'm sure it can diminish discussion for those coming here to discuss, or chat about, progressive music). I would like to see suggested inclusions discussed in the forums (also a way of getting people to know the music), and provide mp3 samples if possible, since a piece of music is worth far more than words alone. Start topics on Prog bands you enjoy -- even if it doesn't get much discussion, at least people will hear the names (maybe later they'll buy the albums -- especially if links to music samples are included if possible). And we should encourage open discussion of bands and albums (as open as possible). Nothing wrong if someone says they don't like something -- matter of taste. In fact if there's criticism as well as praise, it makes for a better thread, generally, I think. I think the negative reactions (well anger particularly) towards others negative reactions towards certain music is not constructive. I want to know what people like and don't like. Anyway, I see your problem, and sorry for digressing badly. Have to leave it without properly addressing YOUR concerns, since I have to go out. PS Controversy isn't bad necessarily... A controversial addition generates debate and energizes the board. Some people just have to learn not to take such things personally, As you work for the site, you have the right to take more things personally than I do, in my opinion. I wouldn't want to volunteer for a place where I really disliked the policies/ practices, and felt that I had no say in changing those policies that really bothered me. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 20:35
|
Prog is still new for me, after about two years since stumbling into
it, so I remain a rocker at heart. My "expertise" is on classic 70s and
late 60s rock, and on 90s pop-rock (I was the avid teenager then). So,
looking through the eyes of the neophyte that I am, I can tell you Erik
that this site and these forums are exactly what they should be. Most
of the bands (and their music) that are discussed here are unknown to
me, and most of these discussions are really helpful. You may not have
this impression, because you've been acquainted for a lifetime already
with the major acts and you are digging into the darkest vaults of
prog-world. But for a newbie, this is a place to be. As most of the names and titles mentioned around are unknown to me, they force me into expanding my horizons. I guess you can't really evaluate the effects of your efforts, but I can tell you it's all happening because of the enthusiasm of you and all the great people from here. (The fact that the community is great here guarantees that this will remain the best place for passing/exchanging knowledge on prog on the web.) Let me give you an example. By winter, I had never listened to any Symphonic band listed here (can you imagine that?!) - I had only tried once with YES and Genesis, but failed miserably to understand/like. Then something happened - you brought something to me attention, namely the music of Yesterdays. I got in touch with the band, got the album, listened to it and loved it. Then I promised the band I would secure them the addition to the site, but I had nothing of the needed knowledge & background, so I started following the link of reviews, recommendations, tops, etc, and my tastes changed. I found YES and Genesis again and this time I was astounded by the beauty they produced - then went on further to discover PFM, Steve Hackett, Harmonium, then Bacamarte, Solaris and After Crying, recently Anglagard, Spock's Beard, Camel, Outer Limits, local bands Accent and Kogaion, etc... Could this be possible without the PA working as it should? I guess not. And all this happened exactly in the period which saw The Doors, Led Zeppelin, Iron Maiden, The Who, etc. "flooded" the site. Let's stop worrying about them... By the way, as I said at the begining, my background is non-prog; I always check the Proto&Related sub-forum during my daily visits on the forum because I feel there's where I can contribute with more substance, but there are usually only four or five new posts from one day to the other... Where exactly is that "flood" of non-prog?  (One more thing. The submission for Yesterdays is running towards completion; it's only a matter of time, just that it's linked now with another bands that I discovered in the meantime. You'll have a nice surprise.) ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!" 
|
Posted By: moodyxadi
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 20:38
|
That's what I've said: ABBA and Grand Funk, now! Get out, Magma, Popol Vuh and their weird music! ------------- Bach, Ma, Bros, Déia, Dante. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 20:57
|
great post, andu.. honest, convincing, and quite right
|
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 21:02
|
Thanks, dude... I feel relieved now, as approved by the n00bs
------------- "PA's own GI Joe!"
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 21:07
 
|
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 21:07
|
Firstly, in Proto-prog we are talking about 27 out of over 2,900 bands on the archive; Prog Related (which I think has a few additions that are 100% Prog anyway) has 134. Judging by the arguments and objections I have read over the past 2 months the real sticking point for many is probably no more than 10 of these additions. 10 out of 2,900 - if these bands are a threat to the integrity of the PA then Prog music is in a worse state now than it ever was in the late 70's. Truth is they are not and the people arriving at the PA Home-page are smart enough to realise that The Who and Led Zepplin aren't the greatest prog bands in the world (especially if they arrived clutching their favorite Mars Volta album and were looking for similar music ) but they will discover here that these bands were important to the development of Prog.
Unlike Andu, I am not new to prog - it grew up with me in the 70's and we have continued to grow together. I bought DSotM on the day it was released and I bought FoaBP on the day it was released too with almost as much anticipation and enthusiasm - so I arrived here with 35 years of prog experience and knowledge burried in my head. Yet I find things here I've never heard of and I learn things I didn't know - it is still a great resource for the obscure and the underrated.
------------- What? |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 21:08
hell yeah... couldn't agree more. Great post Andu.... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 21:11
yes...IMO there are 100% prog bands/artists in PR... and I have my sights set when I return to full time genre-team work... to get them out of there. Peter Gabriel is first on my list to get out of there... not a fan... but you don't have to be. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 21:12
|
I tink that dargdean and I are antipodes since we experienced things at the same time (less than 6 months older than him) and we think very similarly.
BTW, I bought DSOTM in the very first day it hit the stores here.  ------------- Guigo ~~~~~~ |
Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 21:20
| ...In a way, all bands that played music around or before the 60s led to prog...prog is largely derived from Classical music structures and playing styles, yet we don't see them on "proto-prog: bands that paved the road to prog". There is a point when we're pushing things, and adding a few too many proto-and prog related bands. Obviously Deep Purple (to name one) had a massive influence on prog, and so did the Beatles, but Beatles also influenced everything, y'know? Well I kind of lost the focus of my post...Now I'm just talking without direction. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 21:28
I have no wish to hi-jack Eric's thread into a discussion on PP and PR, but personnally I would like to see more bands in Proto-prog and less in Prog-related. There are dozens of Acid Rock and Psychadelic Pop bands from 1967-1970 who, although not directly influential, were an integral part of the scene that gave birth to Prog. Many of these are almost forgotten as it is and the PA is a great place to honour them. ------------- What? |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 22:21
|
I think what Erik is driving at, is in the same vein as my recent tirades. I just want to stop focusing so much energy on the same ol', same ol'. There's prog in them thar hills, just waiting to be discovered.
I've also been thinking about this whole CD availability thing. I have ordered a ton from online stores. Sure it takes longer that going to a regular store, but there isn't a whole lot of prog at the mall, is there? There really isn't much you can't find from CD Baby, SynPhonic, Wayside, ZNR, etc. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 22:25
I will only use examples to explain:
Three threads about a 100% Prog artist, two started by the own artist and one by me,...............Total number of replies: 4 in three threads
 You know what Anton did? Despite his posts were ignored, he and his label mention Prog Archives all the time, Erik's and my review are in his site mentioning PROG ARCHIVES, we can't loose this free adverstising being so arrogant to ignore those who ask for our support.
Gavin O'Loglean: A 100% Prog artist who also has a band called "The Cottters Bequest" who are pure prog Folk:
4 replies, except HT, myself and Chus, nobody else cared.
On the other hand:
More than 300 replies.
So we end using all the resources of the site to support barely (if prog at all) related bands instead of artists who come here asking for help.
Last months I added a several albums and reviews to this site, all of them were from albums provided by Progressive Ears (I sometimes make a few reviews for them) because the really Prog artists are sending them the material knowing that people will care about Prog.
They have lots of albums ready to be sent and bands to be added.
Some people will believe it's good for Prog Archives to add popular bands, I doubt it, the Prog Related fans come and go, the Progheads come to stay but lately they are leaving to search for Prog artists in other places (Found several former members in other sites).
Our target audience are the progheads, if we loose them, the site is lost, we are stubborn and love this site, we will keep insisting because we made a community here, but adding indiscriminately all the bands we like despite theiy're hardly Prog attributes is making us loose the trust of the people.
The Who are already here and nothing can be done, I honestly believe it's a mistake, but we will survive it, just asking for a bit of coherence, lets focus in the real Prog bands, PR will come anyway, lets keep it rational..
Iván
------------- 
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40134&KW=The+Who&PN=1 - 1 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40134&KW=The+Who&PN=2 - 2 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40134&KW=The+Who&PN=3 - 3 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40134&KW=The+Who&PN=4 - 4 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40134&KW=The+Who&PN=5 - 5 
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 22:31
|
I have to say that while I don't agree with some inclusions, in some cases is just taste which makes me disagree... For, I can recognize that The Who may be just as "prog" as Iron Maiden, but as I don't like the former as much as the latter, I could disagree with their inclusion. I have written 12 IronaMaiden reviews so I can't say I haven't "benefited" (in a way) from non-pure-prog inclusions..... I have said a couple of times that for me PA must be like a big prog encyclopedia, and it has to contain everything for it to be, well, complete.
But we have to at least defend the "right" of 100% prog bands to be more "in the spotlight" here. That's why I started a (rather ignored) thread about the neccessity, for example, of having the "most popular album", WHICH IS THE FIRST THING A VISITOR WILL SEE WHEN THEY FIND PA, to be taken of any genre BUT related or proto.... Imagine a prog-newbie or a prog-expert who finds our website and the first thing he sees is "most popular album: The Who, Who's next".... chances are, a few of them will leave the website for their first impression was not of a site really devoted to progressive music.... To find The Who you can go to any rock site.... So those minor details I think have to be improved...
------------- 
|
Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 22:47
| The thing about PR is that it can draw people to prog, but it also makes a more complete image of prog, as The T said. To discount the Who, Zeppelin, and especially the Doors and Beatles is to not grasp the full scope of both the influence on and the impact of progressive music. It's almost ironic that you point oyut how many threads are made for PR artists, since equally as many are devoted to subjects like this where someone laments the decline of PA's integrity. Quite obviously, the focus of the site should be progressive rock, but PP and PR are necessary, yes necessary, in order to truly pay homage to the music we love. |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 23:13
I completely agree with you. I love being able to trace the history, and it is incredibly important. I believe that proto and related have a place here. However, that is not the whole picture either. There are a lot of people out there who would like to discover something different. Discussing the same, well known artists all the time is not going to help. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 23:16
| ^ absolutely, but I'm not sure how to spark more talk for lesser know n bands. You're doing a pretty good job of it so far, HT |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 23:21
|
We should make a game where you name bands and try to out underground each other, and provide samples of the band.
just an idea ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: July 28 2007 at 05:11
|
By the way, isn't this discussion is just about the forum? When you look at the Archives themselves, I mean our large encyclopedia of bands and artists that has been created by us, the PA-community, then the category "Prog Related" seems to be no more than a drop in the ocean.
As it comes to the discussions: maybe a lot of prog lovers who post on the forum are progressive in the true sense of the word: we don't want to be hindered ourselves by borders of prog, however fuzzy they are, listening to both prog and prog related or even non-prog. Speaking for myself: I'm just as much attracted to the 'side' bands as to the '100% prog bands', the bands about which there's no discussion. I mean, that does affect the discussion.
Still, Erik is right: we should watch out, every now and then, that we're not drifting too far away.
|
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: July 28 2007 at 06:21
|
Wow, thanks for posting, already 2 pages
 I am very glad with this because I am supporting lesser and unknown progrock bands since many years (in my threads about Symphonic Prog, The Ultimate Goose Bumps and A Big Hand For The Mellotron) so I have the idea that the many posters in those threads are willing to post in this thread because they recognize my ideas/frustrations, it's something I have build up gradually during the years as an enthousiastic poster an prolific reviewer.
It's interesting to look at the variety and different views in this thread and you can conclude that subjectivity plays a major role. Personally I am glad to read posts that let me look at things from another point of view (for me good to work on my stubborness and arrogance
). Nonetheless, it's remarkable that one part of the posters is also complaining about the lack of attention for lesser and unknown bands and one part is grateful to this site that they have discovered so many lesser and unknown progrock bands, despite the attention for non-prog/prog-related and progressive pop bands.By the way 1) Andu, I want Yesterdays on this site before Christmas
 !By the way 2) Ivan took Anton Roolaart as a good example, here's my example of an overlooked new progrock beauty:
WILLIAM GRAY discography
Fellow collaborator Bhikkhu is also very positive about this sensational new progrock band from Argentina
|
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 28 2007 at 06:34
|
I am more concerned about who are NOT being added. Where are Echo City (avantgarde band featuring Guy Evans of VdGG) and Roman Bunka (guitar player of Embryo and Aera who made two solo albums, of whom I know only one, but what an excellent one). Jean and I suggested them several times meanwhile, directed to their homepages - what more can we do? I'll gladly write the bio of Bunka and Echo City, if necessary, but for Goddesses sake, add them, so people can buy their excellent albums. "Dein Kopf ist ein schlafendes Auto", the first album of Roman Bunka, is a definite 5 star album in my book. Full of exciting and complicated rhythms and meters (34/8 for example), great riffs, wonderful guitar playing - what more do you want? As to the adding of certain bands: I definitely welcome Led Zeppelin, who are in my opinion proggy enough. "Physical Graffiti" definitely is a prog album, in my opinion. I am more sceptical about the Who though. -------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: July 28 2007 at 06:46
|
Two cents from the cloudy south of The Netherlands: As mentioned by a few people already, there's a lot of fuss being made about approximately 10 controversial additions, while the whole of PP and PR related bands are roughly 10% of what is in the archives. What I learn from this is that something I thought was a problem of the Dutch culture is not so specific after all: we complain about things we cannot influence, because it is so much easier than devoting our energy to actually achieving something positive. Now this is not directed at Erik or any of you, it's referring to the multitude of negative threads and posts about these bands that are presumed to 'not belong here'. Now if I look at the number of visitors and guests on the site and the forums, compared to the actual number of members, I think the problem being brought up here is not as big as it seems. Just look at the discussions, it's only a small 'hard core' of people that stand up to fight over these additions, while most guests and less prominent members stick to discovering bands and reading and writing reviews - the sole purpose of the site. I tend to agree with Dean and Guigo here, people are smart enough to know what is true prog, and what is to be considered PP or PR. Yes, we should be careful what to add, but don't let the amount of attention the 'should be here/should not be here' discussions get on the forum fool you. PA is doing fine, the problem just looks bigger because of this other human habit of being distracted by and giving more attention to the negative things. I see a strong parallel with what happened earlier this week at work. I was talking with an Israeli company CEO about sending people over for a short project. When I told him my people were not too keen on visiting the war zone that according to our daily news he's living in, he answered "The negative aspects get too much attention - don't believe what you see on the news. If people are afraid to come, let them give me a call and I'll tell them how live is for people commuting to work here everyday." Concerning Iván's post. Comparing discussion thread sizes as you do is in line with what I addressed above - on the forums we act as humans, focussing on the much easier to spot negatives. However, the artists you mention are likely more interested in getting their band included and a couple of good reviews to reference, than a lengthy forum discussion that disappears to forum page 999 in four weeks. Finally - if PP and PR are concerned, I agree with Micky that some bands may need to move out of their to real prog genres. For the others, I'll repeat what I wrote in Raff's thread: if we make a bit more work of describing in the bio pages why a band is included in the archives, even the less knowledgeable guests and members should be safe from misunderstanding prog. And of course, new and unknown prog gems deserve more attention, but I question whether lengthy forum discussions are what they need - a way to make them show up more often on the main page is probably more effective, so start reviewing rather than debating ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Kotro
Date Posted: July 28 2007 at 07:17
|
I agree with Erik and Friede. The Archives have probably unconsciously jumbled up all their priorities. It is understandable. Once Prog-Related and Proto-Prog were invented the door was open for the introduction of several well-known bands who could fit the "genre". It is easier to search and add info for rock giants then to lesser known Prog acts. Yet it seems that the top priority of the site, to make it "the ultimate prog rock resource", has lately been cast aside. Like Friede pointed, it's not so much about having a barely prog act being added every week, but the fact that there are real progressive rock bands from both past and present (some not obscure at all) still missing.
It's too late to just turn back and return to 2004 - for that we would probably have to delete the entire section of PR and PP (which would be a problem, since many acts in Prog-Related were previously in Art-Rock). But the admission teams could very well sort out their priorities and add Progressive Rock first. I'm sure they still receive lots of valid submissions... ------------- Bigger on the inside. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 28 2007 at 11:54
|
Erik,
nevermind you including The Doors, I actually helped you doing so, because ytou were getting too many frustrations at the time, but they're in and past the first two months after their inclusion, there was almost no new reviews coming in. The same will happen with The Who and whatever new additions will come in.
I think this concern for PR and PP subjects is hiding your frustrations about something else. I don't see much difference between the site in early 04 (I joined around the same time you did) than today. Your real problem, I suspect is the lack of recognition for those obscure bands you're promoting, and the real problem about newer reviews are the 98 576th of DT or Genesis albums that still come in tenflods compared to a single Zeppelin review nowadays.
As far as your frustrations go, I get the same kind for the obscure prog I championed as well. Do you think I'm happy seeing those ProgQuebec releases (and I included) still having only my review? How about Jan Dukes De Grey ? Tea And Symphony, Subway etc.....
Such is life and obscure acts get a little light, but will remain obscure acts. This has always been that way!!! Look at the "interesting" main lounge threads and the poolls section. >> No wonder I rarely post around anymore. But I don't try a regular upheaval the way you do every four months or so; I just go on with the mission I've given myself.
Stop torturing yourself about such issues as PR...... This is a non-issue.
If we are to ignore the opposing threads to new controversial additions, they will go away by themselves.
Well I say ELO needs re-instalment in Art Rock ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: July 28 2007 at 12:50
|
Well Sean, I am not torturing myself, I am releasing some frustrations in a constructive way, I am very pleased with the reactions and I simply go on with my reviews about mainly lesser and unknown progrock bands. It's quite relieving to create a thread like this and I have to admit that it's very stimulating to receive so many pleasant and serious posts
About those lesser and unknown progrock bands, it's not the lack of recognition (I agree with you that most will stay in a kind of obscurity) but more my concern that those bands remain overlooked because the homepage is flooded by reviews about the legendary and known progrock bands and gradually more with non-prog bands because it's a matter of time we can expect Jimi Hendrix, Cream, Bowie, etc., etc. so we are becoming Prog Music Archives or Classic Rock Archives or .. you name it! And that was not the situation in early 2004 Sean because in those days there was more attention for lesser and unknown progrock bands, on the homepage and on the Forum, I remember how many positive reactions I received because my biographies and reviews about Triana, Solaris, Bacamarte, Museo Rosenbach and Rustichelli & Bordini, nowadays it depends more on threads like the Symphonic Prog Appreciation thread and threads from enthousiastic fellow collaborators like Mandrakeroot, Andrea Cortese, Bhikkhu, Ricochet, Ivan, Avestin and Prog-jester. In fact Prog Archives has become too popular, too mainstream rock, it's no longer that specialized progrock site and I see more and more Dutch progheads who stop visiting Prog Archives, that's not a very promising development a few years ago they were very enthousiastic about Prog Archives.
|
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: July 28 2007 at 13:13
|
There are many people that share BaldFriede's concerns about bands that are not added. Let me assure you that we receive a constant stream of artist submissions. There is a constant back and forth in the collaborator section, and in PM's concerning these. But again, in the main forums, I don't see as many suggestions for full prog bands as I do for proto/related. Jump in and start talking about these prog bands you feel should be here.
Angelo is right that we need to start reviewing the lesser knowns. I am going through my collection, and tackling the ones with none, or only one review. However, the min focus on these artists comes from discussion. I didn't start looking into Zeuhl until I saw people talking about it. It's the conversation that will spark interest. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: July 28 2007 at 13:48
|
Friede would not have complained had we not made those suggestions over a year ago. I understand you are a bit busy, but why don't you just simply trust us for once? Bunka is a well known guitar player in the prog scene; surely his solo work can be added. as for Echo City: they were one of the most avantgarde bands there ever were; go to their homepage. we are not fangirls who want to push a favorite artist of ours through, we simply want to improve the database. does this really have to be so difficult?
-------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: July 28 2007 at 15:09
Sometimes we just need a little reminder. It's easy for a candidate to get lost in shuffle. That's why it's good to keep bringing these artists up. That way they can be kept fresh in the memory. I would suggest contacting my good friend Geck0 about Echo City (you did suggest them for Avant, right?). He's always in the lookout for good avant-garde stuff. Where do you think Bunka might fit? ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: July 28 2007 at 15:40
|
Grmbl. I wanted to edit a post, and hit delete by accident - and of course, my dislike of pop ups made me click OK on the confirmation without reading... Well, in brief, this is what I deleted: The reminders mentioned by bhikku appear to be necessary, but there's more to it. An example: Ben (progismylife) reminded RIO and Art Rock teams about inclusion of Clevis, and at the same time provided a bio for them. Now if bands being accepted for addition were mentioned in the public forums, after the acceptance, they would be discussed more often (which was desired by multiple posters today), and people like Ben might actually step up and loosen the pressure on the apparently overloaded genre teams. Win-win is what I would call that, and maybe even win-win-win if the interested non-collab members are considered. To make it a four-way win (including guests) we would still need to make sure these albums get reviewed, but that may happen more easily if the former is also in place. Another 2 euro cents... Oh yes, the edit that I wanted to add: I know there is a recent additons thread in the public forums, but above I am referring to something like an 'accepted for addition in the not too distant future' thread, or even individual threads for the bands concerned. ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: July 28 2007 at 15:44
|
Bunka calls his music "afghani punk". it is a mixture of jazz-rock, kraut and ethnic music (like Afghan music, for example). definitely prog. I'd put him into the same category as Embryo, the band he belonged to first. if you want information about his albums I'll gladly provide it. by the way, I suggest a new kind of prog category, which is completely different from anything else. I'd call it "prog audio play". Bunka and his Korean wife Grace Yoon have taken part in several of them. one is "Goldberg: Ein Dutzend Täuschungen" by Maria Volk, music by Uli Bassenge (of Embryo). definitely worth listening to for all prog fans. Holger Czukay was part of that project too as well as Austrian nonsense poet and experimental lyricist Ernst Jandl. ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: johnobvious
Date Posted: July 28 2007 at 16:16
|
I'm not a big fan of the Zeppelins, Maidens and Doors being added. But to play devil's advocate, how many guys are out there like me who are over 40 years old, loved prog back in the day and now think it is only a distant memory. They have given up on the idea of there still being good music being made. They have no idea of the great big world of prog that is still out there. Maybe they stumble across PA because they are looking for the stalwarts of the 70's, be they prog, PP or PR. If they have an open mind and an attention span longer than a 3-yr old's, they can find a lost world right here. That could only be a good thing. ------------- Biggles was in rehab last Saturday |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 28 2007 at 18:30
|
Two points:
1. Please... make the home-page prog... the "most popular album", the first thing a visitor sees, should be 100% prog, not THE WHO... (maybe irrelevant but for those who want this site not to lose credibility, start by "looking like prog", then we can "be prog")
2. Controversial additions:
Deep Purple
Led Zeppelin
Queen
The doors
The Who
Iron Maiden
...let's add some 10 that I don't remember now....
Now.... TOTAL BANDS IN PA: 2941
ULTRA CONTROVERSIAL BANDS: 10
PROTO AND RELATED BANDS: 134 + 27 = 161
161 = 5% (aprox) of 2941
Should be really make such a problem about this?
My irrelevant opinion (if there is one in the post...)
-------------
|
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: July 28 2007 at 18:42
here are some videos of Echo City. very avantgarde indeed
------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: July 28 2007 at 19:41
|
The T, this thread is almost an eyn-opener, why should I worry while so many progheads on this site are pleased with the current situation, it's OK to me, I keep on reviewing lesser and unknown progrock bands instead of creating threads like this, thanks, I would like to close this thread, let's focus on reviewing lesser and unknown progrock bands
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 28 2007 at 20:20
|
As long as we continue being the best site for obscure, unknown bands, the only site where many fans will find information about their ignored-by-mainstream artists, we'll be alive, I think. If we add a couple (well, like 10) groups that have been important for prog, it's not so bad as long as we continue being PROG-FIRST... (for example, I insist with the "most popular album" not being taken from related or proto, as that would give a wrong impression to a visitor), there's nothing to worry, I guess. The problem would really exist if we started ONLY to review and talk about The Who and stuff....
Even in this forum... it's true that we have like 5 The Who polls and threads going on... but wait.... The Who just were added! In a few days the fuzz will be over....
I will say something different: the TRUE enemy of the more obscure bands in the forum (not in the site in general) are bands like Jethro Tull... we can't discuss about obscure bands (well those who know them... usually I don't    ) if every day there's a new "best outfit Ian Anderson wore in a rainy day" poll or "thick as a brick vs aqualung" thread... As of lately, Jethro Tull PAWNS Dream Theater 5 to 1 in polls and threads relative to them.... So instead of blaming The Who or MAiden WHO HAVE THEIR OWN PROG-RELATED ND PROTO LOUNGE, blame the people (sometimes me included, of course) who just want to discuss Tull, Dt, Genesis, Yes and Crimson OVER AND OVER AGAIN. -------------
|
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 28 2007 at 21:17
ahhh.. don't worry about that... we aren't the only ones ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: chamberry
Date Posted: July 28 2007 at 21:23
Now we're talking! ------------- 
|
Posted By: Dirk
Date Posted: July 28 2007 at 21:45
|
^ the T, 100 % agreed, there's enough room here on the forums to discuss other material, three symphonic threads are here at the moment, Rio and Post rock also have a well visited appreciation thread. They have a rather limited number of people going there though. A lot of others here keep rehashing well known facts and opinions about well known bands on and on and on. Not that interesting to me but i'm not alone here and anyone is free to do what he likes here. As T accurately noticed these discussions are far more dominating than comments about the new prog related additions like the Who, Doors etc Fact is a lot of people like to go with what they know and like without looking too much further, one argument that annoys me though is that some people claim that albums of lesser known bands can't be purchased or have to cost 50 dollars or more, this is clearly not true if they employ a somewhat more adventurous mind to it they'll find it easy to get these albums. Ask Erik (or even me). BTW, i do think that prog related bands should not be featured in prog top 100 or as most popular album of the week. |
Posted By: Dirk
Date Posted: July 28 2007 at 21:50
You sure? i've always thought of ELO as a classical rock band also after i came here, far better than most art rock bands i know surely but that doesn't make them art rock. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 28 2007 at 22:08
very sure If you are going to simplify like that.... so was ELP . Being better is subjective of course... but they fit prefectly into AR.. prog.. and they had multiple influences that they fused into a style that was completely recognizable as their own. 4 prog albums and elements of prog into their next several... no reason at all to be in PR. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 29 2007 at 08:12
Write up a bio, PM it tome and I'll open up the page (and credit you for the bio) then you can add the albums. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: July 29 2007 at 10:13
|
So Sean, this thread will lead to the addition of former Embryo artist Bunka by Baldfriede, end good, all good !
|
Posted By: Dirk
Date Posted: July 29 2007 at 13:16
My (indeed subjective) remark about Elo being better than most AR says more about Elo than AR, Elo's just one of my favorite bands. |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: July 29 2007 at 15:03
 <-- self inflicted black eye. For a second I thought you wrote 'no reason at all to be in PA'...------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 13:56
While I said that I don't mind The who or other bands being here (nor would I Sabbath ), I DO MIND about our top-100 showing those artists also....
Let me get that straight: people have said both the "most popular album" and the "top-100" are useless... Ok, AGREED.
Now, people have said we don't want to lose credibility and that some newbies may be scared away from PA if they only see The Who and other non-prog bands....
But, the first things a visitor will se are: Most popular album (The Who)...Top-100 artists: even before DREAM THEATER AND GENTLE GIANT: The Who... Deep Purple....
So, what's the story then? -------------
|