Credibility
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Site News, Newbies, Help and Improvements
Forum Name: Help us improve the site
Forum Description: Help us improve the forums, and the site as a whole
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41321
Printed Date: July 18 2025 at 17:12
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Credibility
Posted By: P.H.P.
Subject: Credibility
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 00:23
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Hello, first post here in ProgArchives, or should I say AnythingArchives?, let me be honest this site was sort of good once for what I remember, kind of trusty, but the time (and some people) have done damage to this project, now I can tell you seriously you have lost credibility in matters of prog, I can almost smell the teen and metal spirit here with bands like Blind Guardian, Radiohead, Tool included as prog, among many others, this site is supposed to be a prog rock resource not an alternative, metal or anything resource, there are many metal sites and this one is for our beloved prog; and yes I've noticed changes in your genre sorting, I think it was fine with "art rock", but now, crossover prog?, heavy prog?, eclectic prog? what's that¿¿??... I really think definitions tend to be useless with prog, it's something you guys must experience, really, take this as a honest advice, and if you want to be reliable, let's do it, so let's get back to prog, guys! |
Replies:
Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 00:35
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Blind Guardian, Radiohead, Tool.
You are correct with those. |
Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 00:50
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I agree. Obviously the Admins have felt justified in adding what they did and it IS their website, so they can do what they want (of course). In my opinion, the credibility of this site has gone down steadily in the last year because of the additions of many artists I don't consider prog. Yes, I know they are in prog-related or somesuch category, but I don't think they belong here at all.
off the top of my head:
Queen
Radiohead
Tool
Blind Guardian
Led Zeppelin
Rainbow
etc
etc
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 00:54
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There are some bands that shouldn't be here but ultimately, if you check each and every one of those, you'll find some coherent relation to prog, if not incredibly strong, at least, from a musical point of view, important enough as to make that artist or band necessary if you're to create kind of an encyclopedia of prog. I have to say that this site, PA, should actually be 100% prog BUT ALSO 100% OPEN MINDED as to what kind of music deserves to get the name tag or what artists influenced prog musicians or have enough prog elements so that people can actually mistake them for prog bands.... Prog is an impossibel term to define (the "prog music" thing) so actually, not you nor me has an absolute authority in what should be considered prog. When that happens, when there's not a higher authority, you have to let consensus decide, and most decision here are made by consensus of the admin team or of the genre-teams...so it's not that some prog-wacko decided to include his band of choosing... a decision was carefully made.... Also, when such a decision can't be reached, THERE IS a higher authority (not musically maybe but even more powerful than that, as they OWN the website) that will ultimately give the thumbs up/down to the inclusion of a band.... I say it again: Prog music is, first and foremost, OPEN MINDED music.. it tries to transcend genres, tries to go beyond of the boundaries of rock.... the musicians try to achieve other things that being in the cover of Rolling Stone... We as fans have to be as open minded and not try to encapsulate everything into a matter of time signatures and minutes-per-song... that's not prog, or, better, that's not the ONLY measure of prog.... Instead of being a closed community with no world to think of other than the "prog world", we have proven to be very eclectic and heterogenous in our tastes, which range from pop to jazz to clasic to (ghh) rap....and yes, if one of us sees an artist that could have influenced prog rock in areas different than your usual time-signature-oriented ones, we'll suggest it to the team... because we want to be as big a resource as posible... If this is the biggest encyclopedia of prog you can find on the web, it better be a complete encyclopedia, not an excuse for an exclusive club of narow minded fans... we should be as prog as the music we pretend to love, don't we?
Of course, whatever I just said, my opinion. If it makes sense, that is...
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 01:07
it's the owner's site, not the Admin's or anyone elses. "Lost credibility in matters of Prog" ?  .. oooh, I'm shakin'. Frankly 'ArtRock' hasn't existed for years, and for awhile mostly as a term for artists like Eno, Fripp, etc. Put another way it's all bloody 'ArtRock' and the category had over 500 bands of such diversity as Atomic Rooster, Peter Hammill, King Crimson, Flash, Family, and Greyhaven. Something needed to be done. Deal with it.
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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 01:09
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Here we go again. If you will take the time to look past the most recognizable names, you will find more prog here than most people can experience in a lifetime.
I also love people who join just to criticize. It's always great to hear this kind of thing in the first post of a brand new member.  ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 01:22
I'm dealing with it fine. Just offering my opinion is all. I realize that I'm in the minority in this and that's ok. I can offer my opinion, can't I?
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Atavachron wrote:Posted By: andu
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 01:40
Go in peace, man... We're happy with what we've got. ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!" 
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Posted By: kazansky
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 01:45
it's not AnythingArchieves you know, or we would have names like MCR, Justin Timberlake etc...  ------------- The devil we blame our atrocities on is really just each one of us. |
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 01:46
The site also does not consider the artists you listed prog, with two exceptions, so what is actually that you are fighting? ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!"
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Posted By: ebag7125
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 01:49
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amen to the T ------------- 
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Posted By: NotSoKoolAid
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 01:57
Fact: If the term "Progressive Rock" is applied to enough things it has literally no meaning.
What's the point then? Blur the lines, erase history - There is no genre/style, just a bunch of squabbling kids saying "this is prog" "that is not prog" on a website. But what would they know? Sounds like a lot of trouble and confusion to me.
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Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 02:00
Exactly my point, this is PROG Archives, so they shouldn't be here! Anyway, I'm not really fighting anything specific, I was just giving my opinion on the topic brought up by the first post.
EDIT: I don't want the site owners or the admins thinking I don't appreciate what they have put together here, because I really do! I visit nearly every day. Maybe we disagree on a few things, but thats life. Keep up the good work!
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Posted By: andu
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 02:23
I'm sorry, but the point your post was making (unintentionally?) is just that you don't consider some of the recent additions to be prog. If you also meant that you don't think it's right to have the non-prog categories on the site, well, that's your choice and it only counts as that. I'd say a less valid one than that which is now the current policy. Myself I prefer to have the context around the main matter - just like I couldn't understand the reasons behind a Renaissance museum without Giotto and Durer, or a history of literary realism without Balzac. PA has gone far beyond being just an archive for one certain product, it has long ago become a tool of expanding knowledge over the certain product. ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!"
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Posted By: andu
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 02:28
If you read the definitions for prog-related and proto-prog and you find that "the term "Progressive Rock" is applied to enough things", then you have a reading problem. All the additions are made with clear separations of what's prog (and goes to a prog sub-genre) and what's not (and goes to one of the two non-prog categories). Nothing "blurry" do I see here. ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!"
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 02:35
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Not that it really matters, perhaps I'm missing something, but half of Walker's choices are in Prog categories (those being P.H.P.'s choices too)... Blind Guardian and Tool are in Prog Metal and Radiohead (formerly of Art Rock) is in Crossover Prog (which is described as a 100% Prog category). Personally, I have no problem with Prog Related and Proto-Prog, nor do I have a problem with the wide umbrella of Prog categories that a Prog purist may have issues with. Of course there are a great many worthy bands missing from the archives, but it's a lot of work to prepare the bio and examine the bands (listening to Paga again as I write), so I use other sources as well such as Ground and Sky for information on bands. Sometimes I wonder if too much time is put into debating and looking for the merits of bands that other reputable sites include (not to mention preparing good bios). Can take ages for inclusion , but I do appreciate all the effort that volunteers put into this site, and everyone can help. For me this site has lost no credibility with the more controversial inclusions, but I am more of an inclusionist. As long as the effort is made to categorise a band well (for convenience sake more than anything), I applaud additions. I'm also pleased with the new categories, as I'm all for making it easier to find music with similar qualities. Though I stick most to a handful of categories. It makes it useful to find music we like, and to avoid music we are less likely to enjoy. Long live Progressive music. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 02:47
| cheers Logan-- some Prog sites actually have bands like Los Lobos, the Scorpions, Earth Wind&Fire, Heart, and tons more that have no relation to prog, so it's interesting when people complain about the database here... relatively speaking it is accurate and even conservative. |
Posted By: The Whistler
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 02:49
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Now, the Scorpions DID guest on Roger Waters' Berlin Wall thingy. Very effectively, I might add. Although the accents were a bit thicker than usual... ------------- "There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 02:53
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yes, well Klaus has always had some sort of speech impediment..
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Posted By: The Whistler
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 02:55
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Which automatically makes the work progressive! ------------- "There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 03:12
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Thanks Atavachron. This site has exemplary "quality control" measures in place. Despite the fact that this site aims to be the "ultimate progressive rock resource," the staff/ management do not just include every potential candidate in order to be the most comprehensive -- each is debated, and even when one has been cleared, time and effort is taken to include it "right." It is also quite something that the Powers that Be, while including many Prog categories that fall under the Prog umbrella, have resisted including categories such as Progressive Funk (okay, yes I would like it), Progressive Disco, Progressive Rap-Fusion, Progressive House, and Progressive Doo-Wop Fusion etc. Imagine the number of people a Progressive Boy-Band category could bring? Oh, and if Menudo ain't Prog... Hmm, okay, my inclusionism does know bounds. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: The Whistler
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 03:21
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Well, I suppose that it is (or should be) a matter of reality checks rather than aural sympathies. Too often I think that people reject some things because they don't "sound" prog...
However, some musical "artforms" just cannot properly utilize progressive ideals. For examples, I somehow doubt that a prog-rap thing could ever happen, since rap is based on a very simple, streamlined beat and someone talking. Any attempts to "prog it up" would be silly at best, or ear destructive otherwise. Can you imagine a ten minute rap with a lush, baroque counter melody in the background? ------------- "There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson |
Posted By: GentleGiant
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 03:48
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Hi,folks I think that one of the essence of this "dilema" it's generating by the different era when the PA member meets for the first time with the prog music.Different visions,different opinions, different tastes.Personnally, I grow with '70 classical prog and I'm quite sure that the visions of the "2000 generation" it's different with mine,but this is nothing wrong just show again the diversity of PA members.PROG MEANS DIVERSITY Sorry for my english grammar 
------------- BeGiantForADay "This British band is just the cup of tea for aficionados who demand virtuosity,progress and originality in their mix." http://rateyourmusic.com/~GentleG |
Posted By: meinmatrix
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 04:05
Smells like teen spirit? Haha now that's a fun way to put it. I've had similar issues with couple posters who are obviously Toolheads et cetera. It can be very limiting if one band blocks your view of entire genre called prog. But this site, as a whole, has 99.99% valid information and majority of regular writers are very aware of the big picture. Don't let the 0.01% fool you into believing that true prog has left the building because that is not the case. Progarchives will be around for decades to come. And also best prog will be around no matter how many fake attempts come and go. Trust me on this one brother.  ------------- 
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Posted By: meinmatrix
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 04:09
Gentle Giant i agree with you 100%. I grew up with '80s Marillion prog and commercial Genesis albums. My view on prog was very limited at the time. But then later on i discovered all the classic prog bands. Today i feel that it is a priviledge to have ability to take all the best albums from ALL DECADES.  -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 04:11
Sorry that you feel this way, but judging from the things you said it appears like you "didn't do your homework" on the bands you mention. First of all: "teen and metal spirit"? Blind Guardian, Radiohead, Tool - they all started in the late 80s/early 90s and most of their members are in their 40s now, as are many of their fans and the collabs/admins who agreed to their inclusion. And "crossover prog", "heavy prog", "eclectic prog" ... those are essentially sub divisions of art rock. No new bands were introduced with these new categories. "I really think definitions tend to be useless with prog" ... so are you suggesting to remove all genres? Well, you can simply browse the artists A-Z if you want to. But if you don't like metal you'll probably be thankful for us guys in the prog metal team to identify these bands so you can avoid them easily. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 04:12
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I don't care for Rainbow, Blind Guardian or anything metal, and it pains me that they attract so much attention here, but I can see why they deserve their place. I also get the impression Admin agonises enough before deciding to include new bands! The fact remains that (as far as I know) no other website offers you such a wealth of reviews of "proper" prog, whether obscure or not. Not to mention the Prog Music Forum, which can be incredibly informative and entertaining! Moaning that Progarchives have lost their standards just makes no sense. But in view of the expanded number of artists Progarchives now provides, I'd like to point out (once again) that it's the highest time to include the following:
- David Torn - Terje Rypdal - Eberhard Weber - (especially) Daevid Allen! Cheerio, Fuxi |
Posted By: meinmatrix
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 04:12
Well, since Opeth managed to pull it with putting Death Metal and Melodic Prog together, why not? I could imagine a rap epic. Someone just has to do it.
I think original poster refers to the majority of fans who listen to those bands. But then again, young people also listen to all kinds of prog so no big deal. We all been young. -------------
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Posted By: Novalis
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 04:17
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We shouldn't confuse whether we like a band and whether a band is "prog" or not, as much as some of us would like to. Remember that bands like Tool, Radiohead etc., while not everything they have done is "prog", without them many of us would never have found King Crimson, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Anglagard etc. Call them "gateway bands" if you will.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 04:19
http://www.myspace.com/dalek - http://www.myspace.com/dalek  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 04:32
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Thanks to the collaborators and regular members who have already responded here, you have done a great job of explaining the site policy. ProgArchives does not want to be just another prog site. Our objective is to be the definitive prog site, the one people come to first.
We cast our net wider than some other sites through the Prog Related and Proto Prog categories. Bands in these categories are by definition not prog, but have either influenced prog or been influenced by it. By including these bands, we believe we can attract people to the site who would otherwise not visit it. We can then show them how these bands relate to prog, and how they might find prog bands and artists who they will also enjoy.
We make no apology for this. If we are going to extend the awareness of prog, we need to bring people into the site first. If you are looking for a small, backwater, purist site, this is not the right place to come. If you want to share your enthusiasm for prog with a larger audience, ProgArchives is exactly the right place to be.
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Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 05:13
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necessary evils aside, I think these three new sub-sub-categories of prog are going to have to prove themselves to all the new users before anyone takes them seriously. I'm sure they make sense, but their names are very artificial and I can see why it's easy for someone to roll their eyes at them right now, and worst of all, I think people are sick of King Crimson being moved all the time - It's not a vote of confidence for the site, considering that they're the exemplary prog band and no-one has any idea where to put them from year to year.
------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 05:28
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Crimson aren't being 'moved', it just seems that way, an illusion.. they remain an Eclectic prog band as they were when they were an 'Art' band.
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Posted By: The Whistler
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 05:51
...Why do I suddenly feel very happy that my dial up doesn't allow me to hear Myspace bands? ------------- "There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 05:54
^ http://www.ipecac.com/sample.php?k=nX6ZpquolVR1oA==&d=084 - http://www.ipecac.com/sample.php?k=nX6ZpquolVR1oA==&d=084  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: P.H.P.
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 13:28
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Prog rock music has no limits, it is totally experimental, imaginative, inventive, intelligent, it certainly has a meaning, but through decades it HAS BEEN sort of delimited, it's not about how many prog rock characteristics a band could fill (if we let that be the guide of this site, tons of bands would be included day after day, don't you think?), it's something you just know when you got the necessary experience in prog rock, it's out of definitions of this kind or novelty tags, when it's prog it's certainly prog! end of the history, and about "progressive metal" area, I'm myself open-minded as we all should be, but the difference is to be effective and careful with prog, I'm no musical hater (as I feel some of you may be), I'm a music lover, I can appreciatte good efforts of music in almost every style, even the heaviers. But as the name of the site is "ProgArchives", let's focus in new or old prog rock acts to include here, forget how related a band is to prog, when it's simply not prog, it doesn't deserves to be here, there are probably tons of site covering that kind of bands out there, I would like this site could count with more mature rewievers, so it can be more objective and of course only focused on prog. Peace, and many thanks you all you who positively answered my post. |
Posted By: chamberry
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 13:43
I don't know about Dälek having Baroque qualities, but he's music is certainly lush specially on his two latest albums. He has a song on his "From Filthy Tongue Of God and Griots" that's 12 minutes long. It's one of the weirdest "hip-hop" songs I've heard. ------------- 
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 14:01
What you say is simply not true of Prog Rock. You are describing progressive music, which is palpably not the same. The experience that you allude to tells us that Prog Rock was a time and a place and not necessarily a movement. You stated that "Prog rock music has no limits, it is totally experimental, imaginative, inventive, intelligent" but that is just a fanciful generalisation and exaggeration. Genesis and Yes "totally experimental"? I think not. Indeed they were, to devotees at least, "imaginative and inventive" and "intelligent" but these are ultimately not very useful terms for the basis of your argument. Radiohead and Tool are far more experimental and delimited than many of the so-called "Classic Prog Rock Bands". I have no love for either band but your argument is nonsensical and ill-informed, borne of petty snobbery rather than any real feel or "experience" of the genre. This site intends to be as inclusive as possible and we turn down many bands, to the fury and despair of their promoters. As my colleague "Easy Livin'" so eloquently stated in a previous post, if you want to use other sites that have a far narrower, and some might say "blinkered" view of the Prog Rock spectrum, then be our guest. |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 15:08
Once again I will invite you (among others ) to explore the large database of prog bands we have here. Don't dismiss something on the surface. I can assure you that we have added many more full prog bands in recent months than proto/related. The Symphonic team has added at least 6 that I can think of off the top of my head. As Mike said, do your homework.
------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 19:34
I don't think that there are any Baroque qualities in Dälek's music, but it's Rap/Hip-Hop which is really unusual and not what you would normally expect if you only know Rap/Hip-Hop from the charts. But the connection to prog is certainly not made by symphonic/classical elements, it's more in the Post Rock/Experimental corner. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: P.H.P.
Date Posted: September 02 2007 at 13:02
From 2004 I've been exploring your large database, it's not about adding loads of bands, it's about doing your work right, and my search hasn't been superficial, I think I've done "my homework" good, that's why I'm surprised at finding bands like I'd mention. And Mike can't tell me nothing really since he's guilty on opening and really destroying the prog rock spectrum too much with bands like Blind Guardian. |
Posted By: P.H.P.
Date Posted: September 02 2007 at 13:16
I think you're talking about something I did not say, I think you're thinking of avantguarde when I say "experimental", Prog rock by definition is experimental, because everything that is new and never done before is definitely experimental I will name only a few and you'll see: King Crimson, VDGG, Gentle Giant, ELP, Genesis, Yes, among many many others...no one did like them before, so consider that important fact before saying anything... ...and yes Radiohead and Tool could have some degree of experimental on their stuff, but since their music isn't really original, it's only a mix of things done before (alternative, pop, grunge, etc), they took no risk at doing that, prog rock did, so I don't honestly think Radiohead and Tool are "far more experimental than prog rock" I truly disagree with you in that one, I think here you are the ill-informed.  |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 02 2007 at 13:40
I'll gladly plead guilty. Sorry if you see this as destructive - how did the addition of Blind Guardian destroy anything in Prog Rock?------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: September 02 2007 at 13:45
Disingenuous post of the week award? Or just utter fanciful rubbish? One of them.  |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: September 02 2007 at 13:56
Keep up the "destruction" Mike!
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 02 2007 at 14:00
You gave me an idea for a comic book "MIKE, THE DESTROYER OF PROG"
 Now seriously,I may disagree with Mike some times, but the day you have done 1% of what he does for free in this site to keep prog and specially Prog Metal alive....then you can speak, before that, you better keep your mouth closed.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 02 2007 at 14:06
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^ likewise ... you're an equally valiant Defender of Symphonic Prog!   ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: andu
Date Posted: September 02 2007 at 14:10
Sound like a Samurai/Ninja manga! 
------------- "PA's own GI Joe!"
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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: September 02 2007 at 14:14
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Thanks Ivan. Couldn't have said it better myself.
So, what do you say we just ignore this guy, who's only reason for joining seems to be insulting us. Then we can go back to our destruction by adding more bands like Deluge Grander, Shadow Circus, Indukti, La Machera Di Cera, Nemo, and Frogg Cafe. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: P.H.P.
Date Posted: September 02 2007 at 14:18
Well, because any young person who enters this site will think he's listening to "prog" only because he likes a few power, alternative or heavy metal bands like Blind Guardian, Nightwish, Meshuggah or Tool, and that's what I'm talking about, and want it or not "prog metal" is a very discussible style, there are far too many bands on this site that only are plain technical or just complex, and that isn't what prog is about. Understand what I mean? |
Posted By: P.H.P.
Date Posted: September 02 2007 at 14:29
I don't have anything against the person of Mike since I don't know him, but I'm against the novelty fans appreciations here, who think they can define in their own way something that was sort of definided already, and then say that any metal or any band they like is prog, and like I said before, this is why: because any young person who enters this site will think he's listening to "prog" only because he likes a few power, alternative or heavy metal bands like Blind Guardian, Nightwish, Meshuggah or Tool, and that's what I'm talking about, and want it or not "prog metal" is a very discussible style, there are far too many bands on this site that only are plain technical or just complex, and that isn't what prog is about. Understand what I mean?, if you like prog and take it seriously like I do I'm sure you will understand. |
Posted By: P.H.P.
Date Posted: September 02 2007 at 14:36
It's not about ignoring, it's about facing, and most important I didn't join to insult you guys, I joined because I want to express what I find unfair here and if possible give you some help here, can't I do that? ...and the bands you have named there are good prog inclusions, and certainly acceptable as prog, no one questioned that. |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: September 02 2007 at 14:48
| You are completely ignorant of the music scene of the late 60's if you think that the prog bands were the only ones creating anything new. The whole of the rock music scene was undergoing big change and there was an explosion of new ideas and invention across the whole spectrum.Prog was just part of it. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 02 2007 at 14:53
I understand perfectly. There's more to these bands than just power, alternative or heavy metal ... with the exception of Nightwish which I find rather bland - but hey, live and let live! ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 02 2007 at 14:54
PHP, I usually disagree with Mike, Prog Metal is not my cup of tea and I'm one of the most stubborn purists of this site (Read my posts opposing to a lot of Prog Related additions).
I do believe there are a handful of bands that shouldn't be here, but at least the people who inducted them, waited months for their approval, collected the information, wrote a bio, downloaded in some cases 20 or 30 art covers, recollected all the info about albums that hardly appear in the web opr can be found ins such languages as Russian or Japanese that few of us understand, uploaded all this back to the site, etc...Are doing something for Prog, they sometimes may be wrong in their belief (I'd say in 99% of the cases they are right), but they deserve some recognition, because they are doing something.
Even when as i said I don't like Prog Metal (as a general rule), I would be an ignorant if i denied the Prog elements in Dream Theater (A band that I hate), Symphony X (Leaves me cold) or Pain of Salvation (I like that one)...but I have to leave my taste behind and accept this are Prog bands that deserve to be here.
It's easy to criticize what others do from the comfort of our houses, but it's hard to stay until 2:00 am almost every night after a hard day of work, leaving our families with less quality time only for love to Prog.
I believe that deserves recognition and Mike has done a lot, I will still disagree with him as I done before, but I would hardly believe he does anything for other reason than autentic love for Prog.
Thanks
Iván -------------
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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: September 02 2007 at 15:16
Yes, but there are a few things that hurt your standing. Your very first post (ever) was a criticism. I also don't believe you see the whole picture. You are going on about a few dubious entries. I will not debate their merits, because they are far outweighed by what is inarguably prog. Some of these have gotten a lot of attention, and I don't particularly like that either. Especially when I am constantly working on artists that rarely get discussed. So, do I insult people because of it? No, I do something about it. I start threads about those lesser known artists, and encourage others to do so. You also can't understand what goes on in the inner-workings here. There is always work to do, and countless submissions to research. A very small percentage of these are like the bands you name. Most of the time the effort is put into gathering more information, and figuring out where best to place them. It's easy to denounce that which you know little about. It's harder to make a positive effort to understand. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: P.H.P.
Date Posted: September 02 2007 at 15:17
Hmm Tony R, stop the insults please you sound like a hater more than a Prog listener, I've been of course always aware of the late 60's scene, otherwise I wouldn't have said what I did say, like it or not Prog Rock was the peak of everything constructed there, and I like it, but it seems that you don't appreciate Prog that much, do you?  |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: September 02 2007 at 15:20
| I'm not insulting you at all, unless you feel that having your pearls of wisdom challenged, analysed and refuted is insulting. You said your piece. I thought it was over-wrought and over-stated. You said some more and I thought you were wrong. I am still of that opinion. Your crass generalisations do not stand up to even the most casual investigation. |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: September 02 2007 at 15:21
Stop while you are behind. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 02 2007 at 15:28
Now we have a couple of super villains:
MIKE THE PROG DESTROYER and his sidekick TONY THE PROG HATER
Booooooh for you two
 Where are Batman & Robin or Harry Potter when you need them? Not even the Bumblebee Man?
 ....Ayayayay Chihuahua.....No me gusta!!!!!
Iván -------------
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Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: September 02 2007 at 15:39
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but The Doctor is here. Who do I need to vanquish with my sonic screwdriver?
Tony, you sure have a way with people. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: September 02 2007 at 15:41
I think we need the super science of Professor Frink
"Mmm-hey. Bur-hoy! Glavin." ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Tristan Mulders
Date Posted: September 02 2007 at 17:47
Pain of Salvation? ------------- Interested in my reviews? You can find them http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=784 - HERE "...He will search until He's found a Way to take the Days..." |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: September 02 2007 at 18:11
Coming from you... |
Posted By: P.H.P.
Date Posted: September 02 2007 at 22:12
This isn't for a joke really, I meant this thread to be totally honest and serious, if anyone has something more to say about my post, please keep commenting on it. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: September 02 2007 at 22:48
The question that has always baffled me is.... losing credibility... WITH WHOM? 
- Prog fans? They'll come here anyway if they want the biggest resource on the web and not want to get stuck just with the current big names like The Flower Kings or Dream Theater (two of my two favorite bands, by the way).
- Non-prog fans? They wouldn't come here anyway, obviously.
- The web musical community? Well, I don't know what the hell that is, but if there existed one, it sure as hell would ignore us as the mainstream music industry ignores prog.
- New prog fans? Oh yes! They are NEW. They would like to LEARN. To get to know more and more bands. Yes, here they'lll find Radiohead, but they'll also find like 1000 bands that they wouldn't find anywhere else.
- Current members? No, and if it so happens that some start to lose faith in the site, too sad but PA will survive without the few of them that leave and they will survive without PA. (But it seems kind of poor leaving a great website only becasue it commits the crime of having a few related categories and artists listed)
- Prospective members? The same. If they want more bands, better resources, they will stay. If they want their daily dose of MArillion and Symphony X (again, two bands I like), well, they have PLENTY of sites out there...
- Prog-fans that want to write reviews? Well, how many other sites as comprehensive as this allows members to post reviews, become reviewers or collaborators, give them so much bandwidth to write (in some cases) incredibly atrocious reviews?
- The Robert Fripp Foundation for The Hardcore Progressive Rock Fan With Special Consideration to Members Who Can Recognize a 12/7 Time Signature? Well, maybe we'll lose credibility with them... Damn!!
So, from what I said:
I insist.... With WHO are we losing credibility?
And, if people lose faith because the site has a little too many "mainstream" bands and they decide to leave... guess what... they'll return so fast when they see they can't find the review for an album by an obscure eastern-european band anywhere but HERE.
Anyway, there are owners, there are members, there are guests... But, in the end, the second ones are also guests of the first ones... So, just say THANKS.
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Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: September 02 2007 at 23:41
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Message to P.H.P : I originally supported your post because I tend to be rather rigid in my definition of prog. However now that I have caught up on all the posting today, I think you have maybe gone too far. Tony and all the admins have put together the best prog website on the net, and while I may not always agree with everything they decide, I can't fault their efforts. Furthermore, I think Easy Livin made a valid point on page two about attracting new people to the site and to prog in general. Keep up the good work admins! (note to self... hmmm how to go about getting Radiohead removed.....) OOPS... did I say that out loud? |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 03 2007 at 00:13
|
Hey I've been tough too because the first post by PHP sounded like bread with broken glass, I do agree partially that some bands shouldn't be here but that's on the past once they are accepted, he wasn't here in the past so he's expressing his disagreement in the wrong way and with the wrong persons.
But the guy has sent me a friendly PM telling me he never tried to offend anybody, probably being my neiborgh from Chile, he selected wrong words, specially when English is his second languiage as mine, he was much more moderate in Spanish.
Lets give the Noob a chance.
Many of us had to learn the hard way, lets make it easier for PHP and think that he only started with the wrong foot.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: P.H.P.
Date Posted: September 03 2007 at 12:20
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Hahaha, probably a newbie posting to PA, but certainly I'm quite far from being a noob in prog matters. And I think...excluding the bands I did mention, PA is a massive site (I see the hard work done by many people here), it's well constructed and very inclusive, maybe too much, and pitifully because of that I think it couldn't be the best in terms of prog accuracy (think of quality & quantity), this will sound like spam, but for those of you who know spanish there's a good site http://www.manticornio.com - http://www.manticornio.com (with not so good review or rating systems like PA), but I think it's more accurate with our prog, I would love to visit a site that could be the mix between the hard work done here in the technical construction and the appreciations of this site I tell you, they don't have any band that could consists in a doubt of "progginess", and I think the difference is that the site I'm talking about is closed for public and it's done by mature experts, something that will sound bad, but in the end it's kind of good to keep the prog with margins on it, so in the meantime I visit both. Thanks. |
Posted By: philippe
Date Posted: September 03 2007 at 12:32
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One or two of our collaborators also work for this website. It's not bad at all!
About progarchives' credibility it's an endless debate that continues to create inner conflicts. It's clear that the policy here tends to be more and more inclusive with almost non visible limits (that's my point of view).
However many people are doing great works, I mean as technicians or about the content itself.
Everyone can find his stuff here, personnaly I only promote esoteric, obscure 70's subgenres
------------- 
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: September 03 2007 at 12:42
Well I'm 46, how mature does one have to be. Prog has undergone a revival over the past couple of years and I like to think we've played a part in that. We are all about being inclusive and spreading the word. Bringing in new fans using our methods is a way of guaranteeing that the current revival isnt a flash in the pan but rather something that can be sustained. With all due respect a non-inclusive site with the attitude you suggest is only going to ensure that Prog disappears for good over the next ten years. Good luck with that. If we rely on your self-serving model,you'll still have all your old albums but there will be no-one producing anything new, trust me. This site intends to bring as many new fans as possible to prog. If that means broadening the definition somewhat then so be it. You have to move with the times, the inability to do this or judge the esprit de temps is what led to prog's original downfall - we dont intend to let that happen again. Oh and for one last time: prog-related and proto-prog bands are not considered to be prog rock bands by any member of the admin team or the webmaster. |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: September 03 2007 at 12:43
and you do a fabulous job of that Philippe.Just remember there is room for everyone. |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: September 03 2007 at 12:45
| While i agree with you Pot head pixie, we must put up with that and eventually, while the archives are growing with bands that we consider regressive, it's constantly enriched by real prog, so avoid the bad and concentrate on the good. Despite of that, PA reminds the best prog site on the Web, and technically the most accomplished (thanks people). |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: September 03 2007 at 13:43
Exactly. |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: September 03 2007 at 17:38
At 42, I'm even more of a babe in the woods.
------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |