I am upset. Here's why (progressive elitism):
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Topic: I am upset. Here's why (progressive elitism):
Posted By: stonebeard
Subject: I am upset. Here's why (progressive elitism):
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 01:05
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(Edit: Don't think I'm singling out RIO/Avant-prog fans in general now. I revised my ideas to simply "Obscure music fans on the offensive"
because it is more inclusive of the attitude I'm railing agaisnt and it's less confrontational, I think.)
RIO/Avant prog fans on the Offensive.....
......Metal (Dream Theater fans in particular) on the Defensive.Some people may be offended by my post. Oh well. I'm offended by the actions of some forum members..... Every so often (usually with the release of a new Dream Theater CD) a newbie to the forums will come along and start a Dream Theater thread with entirely innocent and optimistic intentions (I assume, since it seems this way to me). This person, and Dream Theater, will be harassed and made fun of at length throughout this thread for simply starting the topic. Why? Because some prog fans view Dream Theater (and a lot of Prog Metal and Neo-Prog) as "introductory prog"--one's first exposure to prog music that's to be thrown away as soon as one discovers "better prog." Most proggers, I think, are elitist in a variety of ways, usually to mainstream music. However, it's no rare breed of prog fan that's elitist within the realm of prog music. Now, I know prog fans revel in liking music that few other people do (relatively speaking), and I think this feeling becomes more pronounced when the prog fan starts to listen to more and more obscure music. (By the way, I feel this way myself at times, so I'm extrapolating to a wider theme here). This feeling may be kept inside, or it might be made public, to the point of outspoken jabs and "point-and-snicker" sorts of actions. I find that the worst offenders tend to be hardcore fans of a genre that is both obscure in relation the prog as a whole yet with a wide enough following to incite me to make this topic: RIO/Avant-Prog. This is not to say all RIO/Avant prog fans are like this, but I see this tendency often in this group. Now, I know that a lot of hardcore prog-metal fans are CONSTANTLY on the defensive against elitism, bias, and misconception on this site. The level of this rises and falls from time to time, but I'm noticing it more frequently recently than a few months ago. perhaps this is because of a controversial addition or two... Anyway, I think this elitism leads to a feeling of inferiority (if not countered by active thinking by the prog metal fan) and the need to constantly justify one's musical taste, whereas perhaps the RIO/Avant fan doesn't seek approval or justification from anyone. Unless we make a conscientious effort to not do this, I'm afraid it is our natural state to do so, as prog fans. I do not think I am not elitist. I said that I am, but I don't think I am as much as other prog fans can be. More importantly, I don't think I am elitist enough to make my posts stink of elitism to the average forum member. maybe I'm wrong, though. If I am, please make another topic about how this topic made you think I'm an even bigger offender than you. By the way, this is more of a rant than a coherent topic, so if you find anything worth responding to, then a couple of clappies for you:  ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Replies:
Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 01:11
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valiant cause, Sir Stonas of Beard however, prepare to be martyred  ------------- 
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Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 01:14
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Besides myself, I can't think of a single RIO fan like that. And as of late, I've been doing my best to restrict it to the STC thread where no one will see it. -------------   |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 01:18
four  words my friend... because it is fun...along with the elitetism that comes naturally with being a prog fan. .there is another characteristic we often see here..... that is... having a stick the size of a tree trunk up our asses.... ie.... a complete lack of humour and a fanatical seriousness in regard to their favorite branch.. or groups. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
stonebeard wrote:Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 01:21
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/\ well, I don't think it was mostly at you, micky, we all know you do it in jest, but there are some people here who have a vehement hatred...I personally don't care and though this may be a prog site, I can ASSURE you I've seen far worse elitism elsewhere....basically people seem to feel that the more obscure their band is, the more important they are because they listen to them and no one else seemingly can
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 01:22
We know ourselves better than we know other people, so maybe you just don't see it in others. In any case, I wouldn't start a topic if one single person did something like this. The obscure-elitism connection was a sort of logical connection in my mind, because it makes sense to me and it seems to be supported by what I see in the forum frequently. I could be totally wrong, though. But I doubt it. If anything, I've just underestimated fans of obscurer music's non-elitism. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 01:22
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Dood, don't even worry about it. If a Sleeptime Gorilla Museum fan makes fun of you for listening to Dream Theater, laugh at him; he's the pseudohead, you're the guy who likes a catchy metal band. That goes for everyone.
All pseudo-heads: Listen to The Flower Kings and The Truth Will Set You Free! 
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Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 01:22
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Here here stoney! I must say it is quite annoying to see so many threads going in that direction. If its just a case of a repeat of a thread, a simple kind 'there have been topics like this before, try the search feature Tonight I drink my Canada Dry Ginger Ale to you! ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 01:24
Oh, and don't think that just because I have that last line in there that the post was directed at you. It kind of is, though.  But you already knew that.  ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 01:24
I'm honestly drawing a blank to think of anyone else like that. The biggest RIO fans on the site, the Drop-In crew, are some of the nicest people on the forums. ------------- |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 01:26
I know.. but you know me.. I'm a man-whore for clappies ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Yorkie X
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 01:28
Don't know about you but I think the attention has been drawn to prog related lately  |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 01:32
Well, I don't drop in there much (news to everyone, surely), but I know the people there are not the ones I'm talking about. Perhaps it was a bad decision of mine to single out RIO/Avant fans when in fact I should say that unless a conscientious effort is made by the listener to count it, the more the person is a fan of obscure music, the higher the tendency there is to exhibit elitism toward less obscure prog bands and their fans. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 01:34
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Hello Stonebeard
Like you stated, it certainly isn't all Avant-prog fans that do this (of course not...many of them I know are the most tolerant and pleasant individuals you could come across) but I've definately noticed some that do...and it's not only folks who listen to more "obscure" or "difficult" music. This occurs all around, not just at PA and not only with music...when you have some people with an axe to grind or what have you (insecurity maybe? or possible a Derek Dick-sized stick lodged firmly up the behind). And this is not to deny the thought that DT or Neo-prog are "introductory", in a sense they could be, I don't personaly see that as degrading, what's upsetting is in the way it is presented....an individual may use their opinion on DT to belittle someone else: for example, I'm certainly no DT fan, but it burns me up to see people using purposely incorrect grammar to mock others ("OMG DT rulez Petrucci is teh awesome!"). This is the mark of someone without anything creative to say, in this case I recommend to the individual that you go into a seperate corner with your superior taste and snotty attitude until you're ready to communicate in a respectful and intelligent fashion.
To be honest I have encountered this attitude (not necessarily at PA) toward Genesis even...being that they are a popular band amongst proggers, I've found the sentiment that I'm not as refined as others because Genesis are "easier" to listen to than ------. I suppose there will be elitism wherever you go, it's perfectly understandable (I'm sure I'm responsible from time to time) but the important thing is the help people to see the detriment of their attitude and to try not to do it yourself.
Cheers. ------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 01:34
------------- 
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Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 01:48
Most obscure bands suck, think about it. People try to like it because it's obscure. I remember this thread about bands like Family and Flash and sh*t, and this guy was like, "Dood, Flash is better than Yes." and I'm like  .
Seriously sometimes I get elitist feelings toward the pseudoheads who purposefully listen to obscure music because of it's obscurity, even when it sucks. I'm like, dude, you forgot about good music. |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 01:50
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some people just.....
ah, forget it
 ------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 01:52
Damn fans of obscure music! How dare they have opinions that differ from King Crimson776? Everybody knows that obscure music is terrible! THEY'RE ALL FAKING IT! ------------- |
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 01:56
Bad obscure music, like the mediocre 70's bands that wish they were Yes, that is, and all that Avant/RIO sh*t 
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 01:58
I think I understand your sentiment, but I don't think "most obscure bands suck." To you they may, but you can't say something like that without expect a huge backlash. I used to wonder whether some proggers listen to obscure music just to say they listen to obscure music. (I don't really care anymore now to wonder actively). I think this is the case to a degree in all prog fans. We get that little extra kick of liking something few other people do. Some people perhaps take it to an extreme, repeatedly listening to something at first unpleasant just to eventually say they like something very few people do. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 02:07
SGM anyone?
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Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 02:12
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I loved SGM from first listen and I am by NO means a hipster
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Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 03:16
I don't doubt it, some people like it because it's weird. That's cool. The people I'm talking about are those who try to like it because it's obscure and seems like something that has more worth than more mainstream stuff. |
Posted By: TalmLikeABalm
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 03:50
I enjoyed SGM on the first listen too. I guess i just have weird taste in music. SGM is easy listenin. 
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Posted By: PinkPangolin
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 05:05
| Why did "you" (who is "you" by the way") delete my wording on my review for "Fear of a Blank Planet " by Porcupine Tree in which I said it was awesome etc etc.. and I thought that "Anaethetise" was the best rock track since "Stairway to Heaven"??? |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 05:17
You know I can't help it that if you don't like what I like and you like what I don't, that you have bad taste in music no matter who you are.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Evans
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 07:05
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Stonas is so right. I have myself almost gone totally away from the elitist behavious i now realised i used to make myself guilty of. I guess that is the case for many newbies, they hear about prog and progarchives, and from being into a band like Pink Floyd, they suddenly find this whole world of music and very soon their collections will include a large amount of tech-metal, post-rock, avant-garde and even sometimes Noise. Which i think is all good and well, i guess it's a way to express yourself and to find your personal musical direction. I find that life just gets more enjoyable when you stop hating so much. When you disregard a whole genre of music at once, you miss out on one side of life. And, what's more, you don't have to go around parading how much you have it. It's pretty useless. Think it, don't say it... peace! :) ------------- 
'Let's give it another fifteen seconds..' |
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 07:09
....N00bs!!! 
------------- "PA's own GI Joe!" 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 07:31
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"Vanity is definitely my favorite sin". I think that most of the elitism boils down to simple vanity. People go around talking about their latest "discoveries", and sometimes it seems like they're only mentioning them to "out-class" the others ("you're listening to ...? That's pretty lame, compared to my latest discovery which is so rare and only known to an enlightened circle of devoted fans".). Another bad example of elitism is the constant quest for experimentality that some users seem to be on ... the more experimental the better. When you take a closer look at the music, try to play it yourself *and* compose new music yourself you'll find that it's actually much more difficult to come up with inventive and original melodic music than with some experimental stuff - or in other words: It relatively easy to make your music seem to be experimental but quite challenging to write interesting music which follows established rules of composition. A good example would be unusual time signatures. Of course you can try to avoid 4/4 completely, any part in 4/4 can be easily altered to 7/8 or 9/8 ... or you can use phrygian mode where people would expect aeolian mode, making a part sound oriental and mystic. You can add extreme distortion and juxtapose it with acoustic guitar part to make your music more dynamic, add growling vocals because that's the latest fashion etc.. My point is: All these things are often more or less only embellishments which only make the music *appear* to be more experimental ... they're often superficial and add nothing to the substance. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on where you're standing) music is much more difficult to judge ... in all styles of music there's good and bad, and we cannot separate one from the other by style. I also think that this is the true definition of open mindedness in terms of music ... the broader the range of styles is in which you find good music, the more open minded you are. It doesn't mean you have to like everything ... far from it. It rather means that your judgement is not affect by superficialities and preconceptions. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Posted By: Jimbo
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 10:19
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The key to 'not being upset' about these things is to finally stop caring about what others think / what their motives for listening to particular kinds of music may be. At the end of the day, why should you care? After all, we all get 'kicks' out of music for different reasons. Just listen to the music you enjoy and let others worry about superficial trivialities. Not sure did I answer the question at hand, or ramble about something completely unrelated, but it's all good to me. ------------- 
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 10:20
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If it exists, and I'm not sure it consciously does, I think this elitism is a good thing. Think about it. Were it not for being challenged by the tastes of others, I might still be listening to my favorite bands exclusively. When I came here I had little knowledge of Rio, Prog-metal, or Italian. Thank God these so called elitists kept pulling my attention away from Dave Gilmour so I was ever-so-gently encouraged to try Semiramis, Agalloch, Miasma, Pain of Salvation, etc. This is a good thing, getting out of our comfort zones and trying new bands. I am awed that there are some 16 year old kids here with vastly more knowledge about certain "difficult" bands than I, and the fact that they talk about these bands and might be dismissive of DT or talk about Floyd as "old hat" doesn't offend me or wound me. If it eventually makes me check out their "difficult" band then they have done me a huge service. Because the fact is, some of this Rio and Post Rock/metal is every bit as amazing, cool, and beautiful as the old bands. I'm not suggesting people openly ridicule anyone, understand. But there is a difference between mocking someone and a bunch of guys talking about what they like and being irreverent towards something they don't find interesting. I think if you are upset by the latter, well, you shouldn't be because there's nothing wrong with that. Because they like a Rio band and don't like DT doesn't mean they are conspiring to mock you. I don't think there is any shortage of discussion of Prog-metal on this site for those who want to stick with one genre. Seems easier to ignore the posters you don't like than to attempt to change them. Bring on the elitism! Sure beats the alternative. Plus, I can always leave my computer and go listen to Air Supply and the Rio guys here will never find out Elitists, if you're here, I thank you. And if trying to point out how cool Miasma or Gojira or Maudlin is makes me elitist to DT fans, so be it. But it shouldn't. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sQD8uhpWXCw" rel="nofollow - It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...Road Rage Edition |
Posted By: ClassicRocker
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 10:26
(Out of curiosity) could you clarify that? That first sentence sounds as if one who likes ten genres is "more open-minded" than one who likes 3 or 4 (which I would disagree with), but I really don't understand that second part (bolded) or how it's related to open-mindedness.  ------------- 
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Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 10:27
SGM? ARE YOU SEIROUS?!?! What a prog noob! dude, they're so bad compared to all the obscure stufff I listen to. Stupid noob, sucha lozer. |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 10:29
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Tolerance is a great virtue. I'm not sure that "ranting" about people's intolerance is the best way to persuade them to stop.
(Not an admin post!)
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Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 10:31
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That's a first.^
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Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 11:14
other than the growling you basically summed up my band's writing process I try to do other things though than simple mode shifts though but sometimes thats what it boils down to  -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 11:56
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^ please don't get me wrong ... there's nothing wrong with these "tricks" I mentioned. I also wrote some tunes in the past and I've used some of them. The point is that they don't necessarily make your music more interesting. In the end even the most complex tracks are based on one or a few simple melodies ... and if they don't work in a reduced setting (just the melody) they probably also won't work in more complex arrangements. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 12:03
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I know I sort of make fun of my own ways of doing things sometimes to try to prod myself to do something more interesting I guess....I've heard the trick that "if it doesn't sound good on acoustic, then it doesn't sound good at all" and for the most part I agree...however, this does not apply to progressive metal (or any metal for that matter) as muted power chords on acoustic sound like sh*t. This is partially why I'm trying to move away from power chords
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Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 12:03
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I'm totally guilty of elitism (usually only within my family because it seems I'm the only one who explores the range of music to find totally diverse yet equally interesting music), but not really within Progressive Rock (if I am well then I haven't come to realize it yet) Elitism can be a pro and con. You can pat yourself on the back for finding some obscure artist and the fact that you are part of the "the lucky chosen few". But it can also be a con in the sense that if/when you want to show a band to a friend, they might not like it because it is too obscure and not many people listen to it and are a bit cautious about it. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 12:06
Try to play it without chords, just the melody, on a guitar or a piano. The melody is the song! ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 12:09
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my band is waay too riff based our latest song actually is surprisingly not "chugga chugga" as I tend to write towards, though I'm gonna kill the drummer because he made me change the first chord of the chorus to the EXACT chord and strumming pattern and tempo as "The Drapery Falls"
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 12:28
Stone, probably your best post. I recall fighting with it at first; however, now I just ignore it (for the most part). I think you've nailed it right on the head, so there's not a lot I can add. The only thing I can tell you is something that happened to my friend in Delaware when he went to NEARFest a few years ago. He wore a Marillion Brave concert shirt and was the victim of hecklers and little snide remarks towards neo. It's a pretty disgusting display, IMO. E ------------- 
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Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 12:34
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Hmmm...
Stony, are you just trying to out do my stuck in the seventies thread?
Anyways, I am guilty of some unnecessary DT bash (actually all speed/power metal in general), but I keep to a point of arguable reason, not like: "LAWLACAUST, JOHN PETRUCCI IS JESUS *pause* NOT! ------------- 
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Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 13:35
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Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 13:40
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I usually do but trust me, no one notices anyway, only like 8 people in the whole damn town know who Opeth are.....meanwhile Dream Theater are extremely popular around me for some reason
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Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 14:08
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Criticism of the more well-known bands in any prog genre is never a bad thing. It's always good to try to understand why there are people who can't relate to what you listen to at all and choose to listen to other types of bands, usually the marginal and obscure ones.
I am elitist and never had the intention during my days of activity here to hide it. Yet, that doesn't mean I throw my KC cds out of the window and am ashamed to play familiar Genesis tunes upon coming back home tired. I do think, however, that the forums must encourage a deeper investigation into both underrated classic and modern prog.
I come back here after months, browse some threads and notice discussions of seemingly promising new bands (most of which I have yet to discover myself), and I see practically the same 3-5 people talking about them (the same enthusiasts who filled the review pages of this year's releases, it seems).
If anything, we should bash Dream Theater more just for the purpose of reminding ourselves there is other music out there that we would enjoy listening.
And lulz at micky's sig. ------------- sig |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 14:09
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My friends call this the indie effect, people start to love music for it being unknown abd become snobby of even slightly mainstream bands (anyone who has had prolonged exposure to the indie scene knows what i'm talking about) actually I find prog fans are actually pretty good about this compared to the stuck upness in other genres (thats right mr.opetharntmetal i'm talking to you) ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 14:11
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Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 14:13
Actually I was reffering to my friend who thinks that any song that includes acoustics can't be metal. He is generally a fan of the Chugga Chugga (double bass at a mizzillion bpm) style of music (he likes Meshuggah though.) ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: cacha71
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 14:48
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What a fuss! Why can't people just show respect for musical tastes of others? I love prog, am passionate about it and show it, but I also have plenty of friends who listen to pop and other mainstream music. I don't feel the need to mock them. I don't claim to be perfect but I do understand that everyone has a right to to their own personal taste. Maybe I don't like the music others are into, but why shouldn't they? If everyone liked exactly the same things life would be so boring, don't you think? Variety is the spice of life!
We can be proud of our music without disrespecting others! ------------- http://www.last.fm/group/Progressive+Folk |
Posted By: Abstrakt
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 15:04
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Sometimes i can think that obscure music is great, but stay away from buying (or even downloading) that album, because i feel that "i'm not ready for it yet".
By that i mean, that i have so much catching up to do with the less obscure bands, that buying obscure albums now would make my collection "unbalanced" or "unfinished" or whatever.
Hope you understand. I won't try to explain this again.
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Posted By: khammer99
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 15:06
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Amazing, that this kind of nonsense still goes on. I have a good friend of mine who's brother was like this back in the 70's. If it became "popular" he disowned. I enjoyed that he would broadening my horizons, introducing me to stuff like Wishbone Ash, Les Dudek and the like. But when he would attack me for listening to mainstream, it got old very fast. I really don't see the point of it. Great, you listen to some really obscure band. Tell me about them, show me where I can get them, or better, download some samples, and let's go from there! I'm too old to be worrying about if I listen to the newest No Name band from No Where. I'm just interested in hearing something that I've not heard before. If, I come across something different, I like to share it with my friends. I also enjoy someone else, turning me onto some newer stuff. I DON'T CARE IF IT'S MAINSTREAM OF NOT! Good music, is good music, period. As another friend often says, "I just want to hear it all, before I die". Amen. ------------- Genius is always allowed some leeway, once the hammer has been pried from its hands and the blood has been cleaned up. - Terry Pratchett |
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 15:58
I'm glad you don't like them (they make Magma sound good for f**ks sake ). They are just an example of a sh*t band that people think they are the sh*t for listening to. I could have used any more obscure example but then all the prog noobs wouldn't know what I was talking about. But then again the true noobs are those who reject catchy bands because they are too mainstream. You stop being a noob when you give all music a chance. (not you specifically, just in general). Btw, Magma's good, I just don't like MDK, so I didn't like them at first. I'm pretty much always in jest when I say a band as obviously good as Magma sucks, so no worries.
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Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 16:07
Oh, and damn straight to that
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Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 16:10
| Almost all of Dream Theater's albums have been of high quality from the start. They have more respect from me then most bands that turn to crap after a few years or albums. |
Posted By: chamberry
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 17:34
King Crimson776 are you serious about all of your posts on this thread?  @ Topic: I agree that elitism isn't a good thing and that there's too many of it in Prog, but elitism can be found everywhere and not necessarily in the "obscure music is better than mainstream music" context. I've seen it the other way around too. I really don't know why you mentioned RIO/Avant fans in the beginning of the thread since they're they nicest people I know in PA (at least the ones in the RIO drop in center thread and ZAR team) and I've never seen any act of elitism when talking to them. I don't care about all of those things like I used to years ago. I'm not worried about what people think about my taste in music or how obscure (I hate that word) my music is because in the end it'll only affect me and my enjoyment when listening to music. I do like to promote bands that aren't well known, but I do it because I enjoy seeing people expanding their musical horizons and not because I'm a show off or elitist. ------------- 
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Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 17:50
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Yes chamberry, he's completely serious, read his review for Spock's Beard's "V"
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Posted By: dante.dio
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 17:53
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Well I have to disagree with everyone saying that obscure bands play poor music. The music is obscure only because the bands were over-shadowed by bigger names who appeal to bigger audiences. The music is not obscure because it is bad. All my favourite bands are not really well known (see this thread: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43770 ) and I like them because their music is amazing! I do have a degree of elitism with my music but not in context with prog-metal/neo prog (although I do believe most music in these genres generally have less progressive elements...). I do feel that most mainstream music is below prog in terms of quality and composition although I feel that my opinion is well based and shared by many others. I never over-state my feelings on prog a lot (since nobody I know listens to prog...) and I always try to keep an open mind with music but IMHO, prog is in it's own class as a musical genre and it does not receive the recognition it deserves. (Thank you progarchives.com!) It's difficult but I try not to classify music based on it's popularity. Some really popular songs can be great although they usually lack progressive elements, which is what I look for in music. Anyway, to the OP because I've been thinking about this sort of thing since I discovered prog!------------- ----Progressive Rock---- is ---Music For Musicians--- |
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 18:54
No, I'm not serious about all of them. I by no means have elitist feelings toward anyone, avantheads or mainstreamers. I was just trying to piss some elitist avantheads off, IF there were any here. But most of the people here are probabIy cool and just happen to like some GOOD lesser known bands, plenty of those out there. I have absolutely nothing against avantgarde music when it is legitimately good, but I find that the problem with alot of it is that the bands try to sound avantgarde in order to cover up their weakness as a band and inability to write catchy memorable music. I enjoy all kinds of music but I just don't like it when a weirdass obscure band gets praised beacuse it sounds like someting that might be new. |
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 19:04
You actually think I was totally serious with that review? That review was sic, but I was in jest for alot of it. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 19:25
Sometimes albums are obscure for a reason ... sometimes not. Depends on the album! ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: explodingjosh
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 20:29
I think SGM is a great band. I truly enjoy listing to In Glorious Times, and I think that the variety of textures and the complexity of the music is brilliant. I've watched the entire concert set on YouTube and the songs are perfectly executed... so that's proof for me that there's no pretending going on with the musicians. And also, I could care less if nobody knows that I listen to SGM. King Crimson776, there are people out there who listen to bands like The Mars Volta and Sleepytime simply because they like them. You always take any chance possible to bash them whenever they are mentioned, which is lllllllllllammmmme. You seem to be really afraid of being fooled by pretend bands with pretend music. I really can't imagine artists with such talent (e.g. the members of TMV and SGM) would need to pretend to make their music enjoyable. I think that kind of attitude towards writing would be more commonplace among Art Punk bands like Angels & Airwaves (where the music and talent of the artist is obviously undeveloped), but that's just my opinion and my take on things. ------------- 
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Posted By: explodingjosh
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 20:34
You realize how superficial that sounds, right? I don't think you're quite as serious with the second sentence, but the first one....... -------------
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Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 20:56
you never know with some people -------------
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Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 21:05
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Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 21:07
------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: Sckxyss
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 21:33
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I may be alone here, but I prefer a poster like the one Stonebeard described than one who is the polar opposite.. not to name names, but I think it's fairly obvious who I'm talking about. I don't like Neo-prog and a lot of prog-metal, but I keep it to myself unless I'm asked for an opinion (polls, etc.). Similarly, I'd expect someone who doesn't understand elements of avant-garde not to make ridiculous claims about it, such as it being bad because it's not catchy, and people only like it because it's obscure.
Also, I don't see a whole lot of distasteful posts about DT or prog-metal anymore, besides the occasional "omg DT rawks petroochi is teh GAWD" posts, which obviously aren't serious and hardly harmful. Rather, I see, as schizoid_man pointed out in his thread, elitism from older members towards modern prog.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 21:51
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Stoney, I think this has less to do with elitism and more to do with immaturity, though the two may be related or even synonymous. (and I'm not equating immaturity to age either). I think many DT fans should recognise this and just step back from the argument and let them get on with it - in the long term it damages the 'elitists' credibility more to let them carry on and not respond in kind ... to quote Goethe - 'what does not kill me makes me stronger'.
As Micky has said, sometimes having a poke at DT is fun, but only because they are big and tough and, with 6+ million albums to their credit, are practically unassailable. The problems start when it is not done in fun but to ridicule the original poster.
------------- What? |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 21:52
 ....if anyone even noticed my post ------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: Astrodomine
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 21:58
I totally agree with you here. IMHO there is a world of differences between styles like RIO and neo-prog metal or whatever. It's normal that somebody cannot understand and like the two styles but saying that rio/avant-garde is only listened by snob people is just false. And what's the deal with the catchy thing (???). |
Posted By: Asyte2c00
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 22:08
I disagree, I feel proggers who have listned to prog for a long time will naturally move onto more obscure bands without compromising quality or importance. I feel their expereince takes them to obscure groups because experienced proggers have effectively graduated from the "classic, landmark" albums Mirage, Close to the Edge, Octopus . Obscurity has more to do with time than importance.
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Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 22:18
Our opinions aren't mutually exclusive here, I should have specified that SOME people feel this way. I know for a fact that I listen to more obscure bands than when I started off, but some people wear it as a badge of honor and give themselves a pat on the back for it. -------------
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Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 22:27
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Excellent thread Stonebeard.I like the one you did some time ago challenging Neo bashers to bring it on! darqdean makes a great point that often the bashers are immature(not necessarily young). I remember with embarrassment how narrow minded i was when i was in my twenties about music.And yes i had the attitude to make my thoughts known,which made me look even more like an idiot. So for you people who get bashed for liking DREAM THEATER or MARILLION just consider how immature the person is who is throwing the stones. I think elitism(arrogance) is even worse than immaturity though.And i think it's worse on other sites then it is here. I refuse to let people make me feel guilty for loving neo or metal. Bring it on! ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 22:42
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I think that most people start with the well knownes and move on to the less knows becase they simply got bored and wanted to hear somthing new, and thats not a good or bad thing its just people listening to music.
The problem is that some people take pride in having "better taste" this not only applies to prog. Metal heads often put down fans of Metalcore becaus its not as heavy as death or black. Indie kids will often ridicule fans of Death Cab and Modest Mouse because they are "sell outs" and not "real indie". Its just the way some people are wired. ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 23:40
| Is it really elitism if you actually are better? |
Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 23:55
No. It makes you short sighted as well as elitist. E -------------
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Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: November 26 2007 at 00:04
That's cool, like I said about TMV, if there's something that gets you off about the band, totally fine. It just seems like any pleasure that can be taken from those bands can only be perverse. Art Punk bands can have something that gets its listeners off just as well as TMV and SGM, even if the musicianship is less developed, except the pleasure taken from them is likely less perverse or pretentious (also, perfect execution doesn't mean good songs). I don't think I could appreciate the music for the complexity in itself but if complexity is an end itself for you then that's perfectly fine. I'm certainly not afraid of being tricked by that type of band, the reason I speak against it is that I don't think it's good for this generation and their attitudes toward music (as a whole, I know already that you happen to be fine with it but many aren't, I've met people that are in weird mindsets because of TMV, they have an unhealthy worship for the band). I apologize if my rants about the bands seemed too serious, it is just music afterall. I wanted to state my opinion on the bands and the bad vibes they cause and in doing so there are some bad vibes that don't need to be here. The topic is elitism and I don't hold my words above anyone else's, so if you've actually read this, take my words for what you will as I mean well like most here and express my opnion in an attempt to better myself and hopefully others by considering my words. Maybe sarcasm and jest aren't the best means over the interent .
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Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: November 26 2007 at 00:06
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sarcasm fails 99 percent of the time over the internet, I've found
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Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: November 26 2007 at 00:15
99 exactly huh, duly noted. I'll save it for that 1%. Oops, there it is again.
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Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: November 26 2007 at 00:21
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I wish there were a 'sarcastic' smiley with an incredibly indignant look on its face -------------
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Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: November 26 2007 at 00:30
I've read that micky is a DT basher, is that more acceptable than bashing avantgarde bands? I like DT and I make fun of them all the time, so I'm fine with bashing them. As should everyone be with bashing any band, avantgarde or otherwise, avantgarde bands are often waaaay more ridiculous than DT, and with more pretention. Now my bashing likely seemed more serious than micky's, so your reaction is understandable, but know that the seeming seriousness of it is part of the jest. Again, over the internet... |
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: November 26 2007 at 00:31
See my icon. < (well, not so indignant) |
Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: November 26 2007 at 04:09
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Yes, this is something I have definitely noticed. The exact same thread ran on Progressive Ears earlier in the year and the same conclusion was noted by some; that the snobbery towards neo prog and prog metal was often perpetrated by RIO/avant fans. The same is true here. That's not to say that ALL RIO fans are of that ilk, and I do stress that- I dare say most couldn't care less either way- but there ARE a handful who seem to feel the need to prove the superiority of their tastes at the expense of others.
It's not even that they dislike certain bands, which is perfectly fine, it's that they seem to throw insults and snobbery at people whilst constantly expressing their disdain for neo/prog metal. I have to confess to not being into RIO (but then to be frank, I'm not all THAT big a prog metal fan either) but that snobbery from some puts me off even more...Nevertheless, I stay out of RIO threads as I lack the knowledge of the genre and, crucially, out of respect for its fans.
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: November 26 2007 at 04:49
As usual, James, you've got your point across perfectly. In my very humble opinion, feeling superior to other people because of our preference for the more obscure side of prog is not a very mature attitude, not to mention quite disrespectful. It is one thing to 'bash' DT in jest, another to look down at their fans because they don't understand 'real' prog. Same goes for the ongoing battle between the fans of 'classic' and 'modern' prog. The ironic thing is, we proggers should be distinguished by our open-mindedness in terms of music - instead, we end up tearing each other apart in order to affirm the superiority of our individual tastes. A word about the legendary DT bashing that Andrew mentioned in his initial post. I've never denied that, no matter how hard I have tried, I've never managed to get into DT. However, this is also true of other bands, which I have never dreamed of bashing. The thing is, the unquestioning adoration of DT fans towards the band, and the frequent proliferation of DT threads (some of them quite outrageous) has sometimes acted as a goad to my contrary nature - hence the 'bashing' that some people find so objectionable. On the other hand, I have reviewed three DT albums, and everyone who reads them can tell that, while I didn't certainly write any rave reviews, I have tried to be as fair and objective as possible - as a 'professional' reviewer should always be. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 26 2007 at 06:44
who me.... nah....I don't bash them. I actually have a picture of John Patrucci sitting on my nightstand. I worship John Myung to the point I try to emulate him by playing a 1000 notes a minute with my Marshall turned off... love DT.. and this site just wouldn't quite be the same without them.. or their fans ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Nightfly
Date Posted: November 26 2007 at 10:33
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A fair point Stonebeard. I haven't got time to read through the previous five pages of this thread so appologies if I'm repeating what someone else has already been said.
Dream Theater would naturally be an entry point for a lot of people simply because they have had more success and are better known than most bands will ever have in this day and age in the Prog field. I think that is something to be applauded.
And why they should get ridiculed I'm not sure as you'll rarely find a band of better musicians in Prog Metal and their music is fantastic in the main IMO.
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Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: November 26 2007 at 11:11
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I don't get why Micky has been singled out continually in this thread. I never saw him as being of that aggressive, snobby ilk- I don't get the impression that he likes DT but he's never vicious about it. This brings me to another issue, though, that's completely at the other end of the spectrum- some people need to get a thicker skin, IMHO. There's a big difference between somebody saying they don't like a band and somebody firing missives at fans of those particular bands, and I feel that should be taken into account, although the lines are often admittedly blurred in several posts I've read.
That 'anti-prog forces' thread about Wikipedia that was on here recently was an instance of this- I read the Wikipedia article in question and couldn't see what had got people into such a lather.
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Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: November 26 2007 at 12:15
Heh, at least you've demonstrated to us that you've actually listened to them with the "marshall turned off" comment On the general thread at hand, music of all sorts is filled with snobbery. Have you ever talked to people who only listen to jazz, or classical? Talk about music snobs!! The thing to always remember is that the only thing that makes their taste superior to yours is whether you care what they think or not. Myself, I couldn't care less what anyone thinks about any band that I like (of course, that could just be because I've been a Flower Kings fan for years )I will rip on my friends musical tastes and they will rip on mind, and it can all be good fun. On a site like this, I try to refrain from any gratuitous bashing, mostly for the sake of courtesy to newbies. I wouldn't want them to discard this site because of a few unthinking comments (and tell their friends to avoid it, etc........). But mostly, I laugh at any and all bashing comments, as they should NEVER be taken seriously no matter what. |
Posted By: spacemetal
Date Posted: November 26 2007 at 12:21
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Almost completely agree. First of all, fans and haters of all different kinds of music tend to be like this too. King Crimson776 is doing almost the same thing as "avant elitists". I don't think it's really fair to pick on the listeners of Avant/RIO, but.... Anyone who says there isn't elitism towards prog and against DT and neo-prog seems to be missing something. I'm personally of the opinion as a musician that if you know what you are trying to make and succeed in doing so, then there is nothing to criticize. Dream Theater wants to show off a bit. They also want to make somewhat accessible music. So what if they do? If that's not what you want to listen to, then DON'T LISTEN TO IT. Maybe thats what some people enjoy about progressive rock. I'll always say that AC/DC is one of the best rock bands of all time. They want to make good old ass kicking hard rock, and do they ever succeed. I can say that I personally don't enjoy RIO/Avant unless its fused with metal. I also don't enjoy much neo-prog or metal bands that sound like Dream Theater (who are essentially a neo-prog band themselves). It's just not my thing. Maybe it's yours. I really don't care. The fights over genres of music are really unnecessary. Your subjective opinions dont have to be the same as those of others. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 26 2007 at 13:01
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Progressive music elitists have complexes, they probably lack enough self-steem to be able to feel comfortable among people just by their own personality and traits. As they may have nothing about themselves good enough to be proud of, or if they do, as they may be completely angry or upset at the rest of the "vulgar" musical crowd for any reason (being outcast when young, etc), it's just normal that, when they realize they're listening to more complex music, they think that makes them superior to the average music fan. Or, also, they KNOW that the music you hear doesn't mean sh*t about anything, but they have to cling to that as it's the only thing that separates them from what they ahte the most.... being vulgar.
Yes, I used to be one of those a few years ago. Now I would despise myself. ------------- 
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Posted By: khammer99
Date Posted: November 26 2007 at 15:51
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I think it's one thing to look for something on the outer edges, and quite another to conclude that this search, or the results of said search , is the only valid form of music to listen to. I'm constantly looking for new stuff. It's one of the reasons I joined this forum. Up, until now, my chief forms of finding new music was recommendations from friends, or Amazon.com. I'm hoping to be exposed to new styles of music, regardless if it's neo/prog, advant/metal, punk/folk or whatever. So, as I'm fond of saying to my teenage kids "Take the cool of out the music! Just listen to it, and enjoy it." I wish someone would have said that to me, in my younger days. All the music I missed, because it didn't fit my narrow vision of what was Cool or Hip or whatever. ------------- Genius is always allowed some leeway, once the hammer has been pried from its hands and the blood has been cleaned up. - Terry Pratchett |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 26 2007 at 16:06
 well said Ken.------------- What? |
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: November 26 2007 at 17:17
I have nothing against avantgarde music as a whole though, I just find alot of it to be music that pretends to be something innovative for the sake of it, when there (at this point) might not be any need for innovation; like I often say, when are we free to do whatever and not expected to progress, when are all the boundaries broken down so that we can take whatever formulas or styles and make the best music we can? I bash my friends for liking certain bands all the time and vice versa, but it's never serious, as someone mentioned on this thread. If we can't criticize "what you (anybody) are trying to make" as a musician then there is no point in the review or discussion parts of this website. There is such a thing as mediocrity and if we don't criticize, we are supporting that kind of crap and inviting more of it. I'm not even hinting at any bands in particular, it's certainly an opinion thing (I think that overall people usually agree on what is quality though) it's just in general that discussions like this would be useless (and boring) if we just praised everything we like and let everything we don't like slide, because we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, "Oo, well... they uh, succeeded at what they were going for at least..." C'mon . Don't restrict the many open minded to avoid offending the few oversensitive. If I diss a band someone likes, they shouldn't take it personally, they should just defend their opinion of the band and say why they think the band is good, and vice versa.
Oh, and AC/DC is the sh*t \m/ (wish there was a rock on smiley) (this'll do)
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Posted By: chamberry
Date Posted: November 26 2007 at 17:21
But aren't you doing the exact same thing that you're trying to prove wrong? I'm sorry, but that's how I see it. Take a good look at all of your posts and put yourself in the shoes of an avant-garde fan. Isn't that what you hate? Oh and, by the way, there is no such thing as "legitimately good". Taste is subjective and if you don't understand what artists like TMV or SGM are doing then fine, but don't try to show your opinions as facts. -------------
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Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: November 26 2007 at 17:27
See, no, because what I was making fun of was elitists whereas I was just dissing some bands I dislike, and like I said, I'm fine with anyone bashing bands I like, because it's not serious. I also did say that I was probably being too obscene in my bashing of certain bands and I'll keep my dissing more obviously lighthearted from now on. I did give reasons for my bashing though, and if we aren't taking music too seriously, we should be fine with it. And yeah, I guess I could have said "I have absolutely nothing against avantgarde music when [I feel] it is legitimately good" or something like that, but I think you could assume that.
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Posted By: chamberry
Date Posted: November 26 2007 at 18:06
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You should be more careful with your words then. I got the wrong impression of you because of it. I still don't like the idea of bashing a band (that's probably why I still haven't made a one-star review...), but that's just me. -------------
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Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: November 26 2007 at 18:37
Gah! Make some then!  No, just kidding, never hesitate to though.
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Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: November 26 2007 at 18:39
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^^^
yeah man, Its cool to have opinions (infact I cant stand people who dont have them) but you need to think about what you are saying, we all just dont want to see you go the way of internet trolls (***cough*** php ****cough***) ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: ClassicRocker
Date Posted: November 26 2007 at 18:46
IMO you can easily give a one-star rating to an album you don't like and it doesn't mean you are bashing the band, but that you just dislike that release. Case-in-point: Yes is one of my favorite bands, yet if there was ever an album that deserved one star it was their "Yes Remixes" release! Sometimes brutal honesty is necessary, (even if it hurts a little deep down inside.) ...just my 2 cents on that slightly tangential subject -------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 26 2007 at 18:57
hahha.. damn right brother.... reviewing is an art.... have some clappies an album I loved, since you mention it http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=82337 - http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=82337 and an album I LOATHED.... http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=117496 - http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=117496 ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |