Emerson.... thankfully, the great offende
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Topic: Emerson.... thankfully, the great offende
Posted By: profanatio
Subject: Emerson.... thankfully, the great offende
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 14:54
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Another important point. Emerson offended people. (A great quality as a musician) Stravinsky offended people, Prokofiev offended people. Thelonious Monk offended people. Many of the pioneers who had a vision offended people who didnt understand them. There is true greatness in that. Does Wakeman, Banks or just about any other Prog keyboard player you can think of offend people or bring out the kind of vehemence that seems reserved for Keith Emerson? Obviously not. Holding down mellotron notes, padding great guitar music with big ethereal sounding synth chords and playing an occasional nice organ or synth solo will not get you remembered a thousand years from now as a genius or a pioneer of progressive rock music. That spot is reserved for one man like it or not.
------------- Mike |
Replies:
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 15:01
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1. Being offensive is not a prerequisite for greatness. 2. An artist can achieve greatness without being offensive. (If I remember correctly, many Baroque composers such as Bach were very much pop artists of their time). 3. A lot of people get offended at a lot of things, not many of them great. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 15:04
| Did I miss something? |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 15:04
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couldn't agree more.. .but again .. it comes down to the context of their playing... Wakeman and especially Banks were not essential to the sound of their groups....Emerson was. If you remove Wakeman and replace him.. and Yesd did.. they chugged along... if Genesis had repaced Banks.. well... who knows.. but I dare say that losing him would not have have destroyed Genesis.. they are the perfect example of the sum being FAR greater than any of the parts.. even someone like Gabriel was in fact replaceable. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 15:12
not really. I was actually amazed to read that Bach's music was bit forgotten a couple of decades after his death. Sure, in music, the classic period evolves right from the Baroque has finished (and Bach's work is fundamental). Bach's work was more of a job, however hard it is to believe. He was muzical director in several churches, so each of the cantatas and motets he wrote and are so famous were actually weekly compositions he needed to write for the choir of the church, for the Sunday mass and for the liturgical ceremonies...and so on... Of course, I said it roughly. Of course his passion, wonderful craft and immense innovation in music were undoubted.  right...getting to the point, I can't see how being offensive is a great quality of a musician. perhaps profanatio means controversial, having reforming ideas or taking a step against the natural culture of that period. But offensive, bluntly, means rude. even more to the point, though I don't understand the full idea of this thread, I find Emerson as good as he pleases me, as a keyboardist and so. If Emerson plays bad, he simply...plays bad. ------------- 
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stonebeard wrote:Posted By: profanatio
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 15:12
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Of course I never meant to imply that greatness is only measured by the degree that you offend people. That would be absurd and I could be proved wrong in a million different examples if I did mean that. But my original point still stands. Emerson offended people. He wasn't out to score brownie points with anyone. Wakeman, Banks and many others will be footnotes in history while Emerson will stand on his own. Love him or hate him who can really deny that? ------------- Mike |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 15:14
I agree with Wakeman but not Banks. I think there is no Genesis without Banks. Not only a major part of their sound but the single key songwriter over their history. I mean the band may have a had stint but not a long one. Kind of like taking Kerry Livgren out of Kansas. I think they would have been the second coming of REO Speewagon
 . But overall I agree about Emerson. Otherwise Greg Lake becomes Gordon Lightfoot British style.  ------------- 
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 15:19
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As important as Greg and Carl were for the band, there could simply be no ELP without Keith. I don't think it is any coincidence that they replaced both Greg (with Robert Berry in 3) and Carl (with the late, great Cozy Powell), but NEVER Keith. I saw him play live last year in London, and at 61 or so he's still got energy in spades, in spite of the various health problems he had in the past. I'd dare say he was ELP's driving force, and I think most people would agree with me. As to being offensive, I think people like Emerson or Hendrix - with their talent and larger-than-life personality - got on people's nerves just because of that. Anyway, I don't think Keith was the most over-the-top musician in prog - Rick Wakeman, for instance, did quite a few extravagant things in his day (King Arthur on ice, anyone?). |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 15:20
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I agree but I think Yes are a one man band and that one man is Squire, he defines their sound in much the same way Emerson does in ELP, and I think he will be remembered as THE prog bassist. ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 15:21
exactly....  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Swinton MCR
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 15:44
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Right, this is just my opinion, but Banks and Wakeman and Badens all have a far more extensive range and flavours than Mr Emerson.
ELP had great moments (Pictures at an Exhibition, KE9 First impression are both long time favourites of mine), but Banks, Badens and Wakeman provided FAR MORE magical moments and produced far more pleasing solos than Emerson did, he is far to staccatto most of the time, he never let his keyboards FLOW.
Dream theaters keyboardist reminds me of Emerson, supreme ability, no idea that fast staccato all the time is NOT what prog a prog keysman should produce, he must embrace effective soloing not just look at me I can play Sooooo Fast.....
------------- Play me my song, here it comes again |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 15:57
hmmmm.... something doesn't ring right in that post citing the different styles is not the same as saying that one has more extensive range and flavour then the other. Banks played in that flowing style you describe because that is what his role in Genesis required him to do... it was a cerebral... more atmopheric music... Emerson whoever was the lead instrumental in a loud aggressive band... what the hell style do you expect him to play.... like Rick Wright and Tony Banks for God's sake hahahhah. Keyboardist magazine didn't award Emerson 20 odd years of awards based on being a one trick pony. Get real brother  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: profanatio
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 15:58
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Swinton says: , , no idea that fast staccato all the time is NOT what prog a prog keysman should produce, he must embrace effective soloing not just look at me I can play Sooooo Fast.....
Huh? Are we talking about the same Keith Emerson? No offense but that is an absurd statement. Yeah he plays dynamic and staccato some of the time and does it better than anyone else but when he wants to play beautiful flowing music ala "Take a Pebble" "Piano Concerto" he does that better than everyone else as well. That is the beauty of Keith Emerson. You cant say he "Only" plays like this or he "only" plays like that. Any style he chooses to play in sounds masterful whether its prog, jazz or classical. You cant play masterfuly in every style by just being a "staccato" player. He definetely does not need to learn to "Embrace effective soloing"!!! ------------- Mike |
Posted By: White Shadow
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 15:59
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 16:04
hmmmm..... maybe so.... I was tending to speak of the sound rather than the creative side my friends... Emerson was not the creative brains of ELP.. Squire not of Yes... but without them.. they would not have been the same... that is the point I was trying to make. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 16:24
I'll stick by guns on this. Banks keyboard sound is extremely important to Genesis. Try to listen to the songs without his parts! It is impossible. You can do that with Hackett in many instances (Not Hackett bashing here I love him) but not Banks.
Oh here is a pretty cool video of Emerson I found. Seems to be flowing pretty well here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvQIobg0BwU - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvQIobg0BwU
Same for Jordan Rudess. I was sitting in the front row for this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaf1sAGhe8A - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaf1sAGhe8A -------------
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 16:26
I'll check those out my friend ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 16:28
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Yes, Banks was integral to Genesis. Phil Collins and their manager Tony Smith have said many times that Tony and only Tony was irreplacable in Genesis.
Wakeman is another matter. As much as I'd imagine a lot of Yes fans see him as the definitive Yes keyboard player (and I include myself in that) all of the band's other players did an excellent job in their own right and added their own thing to the band's sound.
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Posted By: profanatio
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 16:46
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The Emerson/Oscar Peterson duet underscores my main point perfectly. Could Wakeman or Banks sit across from Oscar Peterson and do what Emerson did? I Think not. And thats not to minimalize them. Its just to make a point about how far superior Emerson is technically and stylistically. To compare Emerson with anyone else is like comapring apples to oranges. You can disagrree on what you like better but you cant disagree on what is right in front of your eyes. I happen to like Dave Stewart 100 times more than Wakeman or Banks and even he is a far cry from Emerson on a technical level. ------------- Mike |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 17:25
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^ I think Jordan Rudess is as close as you can come from someone coming from a Rock background. I think there are otrhers but mostly coming from Jazz/Fusion or classical.
-------------
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 20:47
I'm nearly sure that profanatio IS Emo himself
umm, well Garion, James, and Swinton have said what I feel, the only thing I will add is that perhaps ELP would have been better off if E wasn't such a big part, sometimes overshadowing the L & P, leaving no room for any rhythmn guitar and rarely any solo's...as for Banks, he was obviously essential to Genesis, but he didn't hog the show...there was still ample room for everyone else as well as the songs - everything fit together perfectly. *Damn I'm going to have to start some Genesis threads to counteract Mike's work the past few days ------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 20:53
 dirty minds.. dirty hands...I have never really seen Banks as essenetial to Genesis' sound...you could have stuck a Rick Wright player in there and had the same sound.... but having taken some lumps here.. and having an open mind. I think I do a bit of digging, and relistening. There is no defining characteristic to Genesis' sound in my mind.. .and have not seen Banks as that.. .so that is where I my thought process went from. Especially in relation to the Emo, and Squire examples who were players around which the sound of the group really revolved around. Never saw that in Banks or Genesis.. and that.. .even though they are not a favorite group of mine.. .I though was a great strength of theirs. The sum was greater than any part.. take a part... replace it.. the sum was still much greater. But again... I might be wrong on this one. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 21:02
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Well...I wouldn't say he was essential in the same overt ways as Emerson, but Banks was the chief songwriter and arranger....sort of the "band leader" (although they didn't really have one per se...more of a democracy). His playing was more subtle as well, and he used a unique blend of sounds....not many other players were using ARP synths in those days, and Tony played around with other equipment to the point that he created unique sounds from every part of his rig. And his playin, like I said, was even more subtle, but I doubt anyone else could play the intro to Watcher of the Skies: the way both hands "talk" to each other...it may not jump right out, but a knowlegable listener can easily distinguish Tony Banks' playing style from any other keys-man. ------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 21:11
he does have a unique style... that is true.. but just never saw it is integral to Genesis's sound. More a collage where the colours blend... rather than stand out like Emo and Squire did... however when they blend.. they are also not as vital simple because they are not distinctive or integral to the sound.. His importance as the song writer and composer not withstanding.. which wasn't what I was getting at with my original posts anyway. Anyhow.. think I will have a Genesis evening... suffering from insomnia recently.. and always find Foxtrot or Nursery Cryme a good cure . Starting with their debut... I do like that album a lot. prog or not..------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 21:33
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Genesis...insomnia? har-de-har-har (or "hahhhahaha" if you like). I must be missing something as far as Chris Squire: he is one of my favorite bassists, but Yes were as much of a collective as can be IMO...they wouldn't be the same without Jon and Chris's vocals (just look - for Drama they had to recruit a guy who sounded just like Jon) and Steve Howe's guitar. Squire was the only constant, but I think 90125 just doesn't sound like Yes due to Steve's absence. Plus, the casual listener tends to associate them with Jon's vocals primarily...deadly when combined with that Rickenbacker + unmistakable lead guitar. ------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 21:41
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from not only my personal take.. but from thoughts out in internet land
'prevailing wisdom' if you will. There were two defining aspect
to Yes's sound... Squire's bass... christ... that sound was
immediately distinctive... and Squire being Squire.. he wasn't just
holding down the rhythm.. oh no... he was the sonic foundation of the
group.. and the other is.. .as you wisely note... the vocal
harmonies... perfectly illustrated on Drama.. where they used
them in large part to sound ..vocally... like classic Yes albums.
It always had been a vision of Yes from the start... 3 part vocal
harmonies. first with Banks, Squire, and Anderson,.. .then later
with Howe...
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 21:50
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those harmonies are one of my favorite things about Yes, kinda like a prog version of CSNY....IMO the closing of Roundabout was a nod to Suite Judy Blue Eyes. I'll take yer word on the Squire issue....I just find it strange to think of a bass player as the key ingredient to a rock band's sound. ------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 21:56
exactly.. therein lays his greatness ....... it is strange.. it was not normal then again.. the proof is right in front of us... guitarists were replaced.. keyboardist.. drummers... and Yes marched right along.. .can you imagine Yes without him. I don't think anyone can really say that. Not just for 'him' but for the bass... and when he began phoning it in musically in the 80's... Yes really was Yes in name only...sure the styles had changed... but it simply SOUNDED different..... that is large part was due to Squire putting down the Rick.. and taking a large step back.. back where bass players are traditionally supposed to be. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 22:18
^we'll have to go easy on him for the '80s though...much worse things happened. As bad as his sound is on Big Generator (..and you're right, it doesn't sound like Yes without the Rickenbacker, but noone was really being themselves at that point), BG isn't a nuclear disaster like many of their contemporaries willingly proved capable of. We're sort of lucky ELP (with Carl Palmer) weren't recording then because they very possibly could have "topped" the Works debabcle (or even the unspeakable...Love Beach).   ------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 22:22
I really like BG on it's own mertis actually... sure it is was diffferent than 'Yes'.. but that didn't make it bad. oh come on now.. .Love Beach wasn't THAT bad (cover aside) I would rate it 2 stars------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 22:29
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The only thing I like about it is the campy manner of taking the piss out of the record company...any other band and it would have been hilarious, but with ELP...well, I wouldn't put it past 'em to do it seriously. We could have done without seeing Emo's luggage carrier and the forest on Greg's chest for sure...
ties in nicely to the original topic...this album offended plenty of people
using the search function, we can enjoy some good old times with it ------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 22:31
hahhahhaha... yeah.. that didn't do much for me either ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 22:35
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...I'm going to try to go about my night, but I now have "Taste of My Love" emblazoned in my mind. I'm looking forward to tomorrow's string of ELP threads....c'mon Mike keep 'em coming! ------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 22:40
exactly, about time for me to go and get my beauty sleep.. .I have a hot date with a beautiful woman in 5 days.. don't want to fall asleep on her ....
keep 'em coming Mike. The trolls, hyenas, and RIO freaks
were quiet tonight.. tomorrow they will be even more hungry for a taste
of some newbie flesh in the form of recylced and overdone threads
and polls. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: December 16 2007 at 04:12
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Well yes, but the difference is that Stravinsky et all are actually good. ;-) ------------- "Never forget that the human race with technology is like an alcoholic with a barrel of wine." Sleepytime Gorilla Museum: Because in their hearts, everyone secretly loves the Unabomber. |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: December 16 2007 at 13:16
^Of course there has to be this posted in an Emerson/ELP thread. 
 -------------
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: December 16 2007 at 15:45
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micky was expecting an RIO freak to post something negative, and I didn't want to disappoint him or he might get upset. ;-) Besides, I think Stravinsky would resent being compared to Emo or Yes. But maybe that's just me. ;-) ------------- "Never forget that the human race with technology is like an alcoholic with a barrel of wine." Sleepytime Gorilla Museum: Because in their hearts, everyone secretly loves the Unabomber. |
Posted By: Barla
Date Posted: December 16 2007 at 15:50
Agree completely. Without Banks, Genesis would be no Genesis!  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Barla/?chartstyle=LastfmMyspace">  
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Posted By: profanatio
Date Posted: December 16 2007 at 15:52
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I know that my only reason for comparing Emo with some of the great classical composers was just to make the point that some of those composers, like Emerson were misunderstood or reviled because they were doing stuff that was to far "out there". I do not put Emerson in the same league as any of those old dead guys.
Here is a teaser for you Emo fans... his new CD will have another adaptation of a Ginestera piece. I heard it. Great of course! ------------- Mike |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: December 16 2007 at 15:57
Posts like that really make me wonder. We complain all the time about people not taking prog seriously, even about not taking US seriously because we are prog fans - and then we tear each other apart like that. RIO fans against ELP, or DT , or whatever fans, derogatory, scathing remarks galore, posting in threads we are not interested in just in order to annoy other people....  As to Micky getting upset, I trust you can recognise irony when you see it. He was indicting the same kind of behaviour I have described in the previous paragraphs - not that it will be of any use at all, I'm afraid. |
Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 05:24
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Don't you recognize irony as well? My posts were drowning in winks to ensure that I was not misunderstood.
That's fair enough, as long as you aren't saying Emo has accomplished as much as Stravinsky then it's a decent comparison.
And people don't take prog seriously because Emo was humping his organ and Wakeman was wearing a cape, not because Henry Cow and Univers Zero annoyed their listeners. ;-) ------------- "Never forget that the human race with technology is like an alcoholic with a barrel of wine." Sleepytime Gorilla Museum: Because in their hearts, everyone secretly loves the Unabomber. |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 05:28
'Drowning in winks', that's so RIO
Good point about Stravinsky, though. |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 13:38
Emerson was hardly ever being serious on stage, he was providing a good show...afterall, they were one of the most successful live acts ever. Only after the punk and new wave...plus '80s pop movements did people deride this prog stuff (but taking it seriously...noone has ever taken ELP seriously, they're jolly good fun). Now Univers Zero, those fellows took themselves so seriously they were drowning in their own elitism... ------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |