Igor Stravinsky - Prog? I think so!
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Topic: Igor Stravinsky - Prog? I think so!
Posted By: The Pessimist
Subject: Igor Stravinsky - Prog? I think so!
Date Posted: May 22 2008 at 02:51
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I've been listening to The Firebird and The Rite of Spring a lot recently, and the first thing that came to mind is this: they are SO prog! maybe without the rock, but seriously i think this dude actually create the style of music we love so much. I view it as a kind of orchestrated half classical, half prog hybrid, and you can really hear it. He also represents the progressive nature of classical music, and his works are very important to the sophisticated development of conventional rock music, a.k.a. prog rock/art rock. Too many people are ignorant to his works IMO. What do you think?
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Replies:
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 22 2008 at 02:56
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Not only Stravinsky, but also Debussy, Messaien, Scriabin...
I know what you mean about The Rite of Spring - and if you don't know it, you should check out the Butchershop Quartet's rock version  ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: May 22 2008 at 03:03
Ahhhh... Debussy  i almost forgot about him. Another one who broke the harmonic mould.I might check out the rock version actually, should be interesting to listen to. ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Certif1ed wrote:Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: May 22 2008 at 03:25
| Stravinsky's influence on prog isn't as big as that of Johann Gambleputty de von Augsburg Horowitz Tikolensik Dingo-Dango-Dongo Eisenbahnwagen Guten Abend Ein Nürenberger Bratwurst Mit Kalbfleisch Bitte Hautkopf of Ulm. |
Posted By: nightlamp
Date Posted: May 22 2008 at 04:02
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Stravinsky? Prog? Nah... His music was certainly influential on the genre, but that doesn't make him prog any more than Beethoven's influence on the Romantics made him a Romantic himself. Stravinsky died in 1971 though, so who knows what influenced his late works? Maybe someone can track down his two-piano reduction of In the Court of the Crimson King, or the lost sketches of his rock opera...  |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: May 22 2008 at 07:41
| Well, Yes used to open their concerts with The Firebird so he must be. Never heard him called a dude before though. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 22 2008 at 09:16
No-one's trying to state that he influenced prog, but that the music he wrote bears some uncanny resemblances - which it does. And THAT makes him prog.
Unlike either Stockhausen or Varese, both of whom WERE influences on the Progressive music scene - although neither actually wrote prog.
I'd say that "Moonchild" owes a lot to avante-garde composers, even if not to Stravinsky. I'm definitely hearing a Schoenberg influence in it (from the 4 Moon-related movements of "Pierrot Lunaire" particularly - can't be a co-incidence).
Stravinsky completed his last opera, "The Rake's Progress", in 1951, BTW...
...and Beethoven can be heard copiously in the music of both Ekseption and Renaissance, and to a lesser extent, The Electric Light Orchestra (just to name the first 3 that spring to mind) - does that make him Prog? Proto Prog? ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 22 2008 at 09:20
Can't big up Messiaen's "Turangalila Symphonie" enough - if this post makes one more convert, then that's excuse enough!
I'd also like to point listeners towards Penderecki - his "Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima" and "St. Luke Passion" are astonishing. Truly Progressive, in a way that rock music simply hasn't caught up with yet.
Finally (for now), the Kronos Quartet's impeccable rendition of George Crumb's "Black Angels" is a must for those who like really dark music - it's similar in many ways to the Penderecki pieces, but shorter. You need a really strong constitution to listen to either of the Penderecki's in a single sitting ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: May 22 2008 at 11:07
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Classical =/= prog. That said, Stravinsky is amazing. But good also =/= prog |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: May 22 2008 at 14:17
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Please... If we start adding classical composers with influence on prog or "prog" themselves (classical music always was a progressive-moving thing, always changing and developing, treated sometimes as a science, which only adds to the progressive evolution -not qualitative of course-) we really would have to add almost everybody....
Well, I always said that prog really started with the gregorian chants so... ------------- 
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Posted By: mithrandir
Date Posted: May 22 2008 at 14:20
| Igor is great, I have a burn of that 4 CD set of his, Prog or not....whatever, you all can hash that out, its all just great Outsider and Experimental music for the Cosmic Youth! |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: May 22 2008 at 14:47
It could always go instead of metal   |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: May 22 2008 at 15:09
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 22 2008 at 15:26
No-one's talking about adding composers of proper music... yet
 However, the core style of the composers mentioned (bringing in a mixture of varying styles, both traditional and popular, mixing them all up into a new sound, creating concept albums, using dense complexity of composition in melody, rhythm, harmony, form and timbre whilst avoiding the traditional song forms - even eschewing such trivial notions as Classical Sonata Form - preferring instead a more organic, developing style of composition - and bringing radical popular styles such as Jazz into the music) is undeniably Prog.
Composers like Mozart and Haydn, who stuck to the old forms (by and large - let's not get too deep here!) wouldn't even get a look in - Mozart was progressive, but not Prog.
Most 20th Century composers would fall by the wayside too - aside from inventing new methods of compostion (which I feel is cheating somewhat - especially given the bureaucratic nature of some of the systems, and the airy-fairy do-what-you-like free nature of others), introducing new timbres (especially electronics - but generally the music tends to suck because the method of composition is too rigid/free) and getting melodically and rhythmically out of kilter - the biggest sin of most of these guys is to ignore form, the most critical element of any progressive genre, IMHO.
Trouble is, most of it was written before Rock, so the chances of seeing it in the Archives anytime soon are pretty slim, I'd guess... although Zappa's here, and he was a composer.
Listen to "La Mer" by Debussy (it's more than 20 minutes long, dude!) - puts Echoes into the shade a bit. Once you understand the concept behind it, it makes more sense - and the music really comes alive. What Debussy does with form is astonishing.
Then listen to "Rhapsody in Blue" by George Gershwin - ELP coulda learned something from that piece - that dude could really rock, even though, you know, it hadn't actually been invented in 1924...
------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: May 22 2008 at 15:34
If, by some unholy act, Stravinski gets in, I'm adding Erik Satie. Being a big influence on Steve Hackett, the guitar player of one of the biggest prog bands, I think he'd have a place here. 
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 22 2008 at 15:35
No way - Satie wrote short pieces of pop music... ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: May 22 2008 at 15:36
Proto. Duh |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: May 23 2008 at 03:17
meh, Satie is comparitively mainstream the idea behind this thread is not to get Stravinski into the archives - which quite a few of my posts seem to be interpretted as these days, but to open the prog mind to its influences. of course, it would be nice to have him in the proto-prog section, but that's not what i'm asking: just a mere appreciation and a few opinions on the man's works. one thing i find quite amusing is that the first Stavinsky concert caused riots amongst the traditional romanticists, while Debussy was shouting at the top of his voice "GENIUS! GENIUS!" it's a big shame that didn't happen with say Krimson's first ever gig ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: May 23 2008 at 07:37
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Surely by definition, the remembered composer names of classical and serious music, have been significantly innovative, hence progressive within their genre? I'm reluctant to link any modern prog musician to a composer, thereby making the composer "progressive" (surely the wrong way round anyway). Darryl Way in Curved Air and Wolf regularly did his Vivaldi spot (oddly so has Pete Townshend on one of his solo albums). The original Renaissance line-up and album were tagged 'Beethovan & Blues'. And so on. ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 23 2008 at 07:59
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Perhaps it would be interesting to compile a list of influential composers of classical music - with a small paragraph for each one which explains how they influenced prog - which artists/albums, and in what way.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: May 23 2008 at 10:53
that would be an excellent idea, we all know Beethoven influenced prog metal  ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: Wuschel
Date Posted: May 23 2008 at 13:43
Is this a joke? Could you please explain that?! I personally see no similarities between Beethoven and progmetal at all Which metal band used motivic development in the way Beethoven did ( if at all)? |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 23 2008 at 13:53
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^No rock band has EVER been able to do that.
The only time you'll hear "Beethoven influences" is when someone either starts a piece with the opening bars of symphony #5, or crowbars sections of the "Moonlight" or "Pathetique" wholesale into some other drivel they've written
 Influenced by is not the same as "successfully managed to imitate the compositional styles of" ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: May 23 2008 at 14:49
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We all know Sergei Prokofiev invented prog metal. If you listen to the "Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October Revolution" you'll see what I'm talking about. There's a section (actually, revolution) where chaos ensues and it really sounds like metal.. That's it... the russians (soviets here) invented prog-metal!
(wait.. wrong thread..) -------------
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Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: May 24 2008 at 06:10
| Proto-Prog at least. Maybe even Symphonic. Or RIO? (profound influence on bands like Univers Zéro) |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: May 24 2008 at 06:21
This was an idea that was discussed some time ago, but as usual fell by the wayside. Pity, because it would really enhance the quality of the site as a cultural resource. That said, Rite of Spring ROCKS!!! I heard it performed live in Rome a number of years ago, and I was utterly floored. The percussion parts alone are to die for, and I'm quite sure this composition (not to mention others by Stravinsky) influenced a lot of prog musicians. |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: May 24 2008 at 07:04
I can only say "amen!" to that. I heard it live once too, and we have 3 recordings of it at home (by Bernstein, Boulez and Tilson-Thomas) -------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: tokenrove
Date Posted: May 24 2008 at 10:16
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The Rite of Spring and Symphony of Psalms are both totally prog metal. ISTR a band called Golem did a death metal cover of The Rite of Spring, but I haven't heard it.
Also, as for no prog metal being influenced by Beethoven... well, my band (working on a demo at the moment) has a song heavily influenced by the Hammerklavier sonata, which is really a pretty progmetal piece, for Beethoven. I think that there was a lot of influence from the early twentieth century composers on both prog and metal. We know it outright in the case of prog, because lots of artists have directly acknowledged the influence of Stravinsky, Bartok, Debussy, et cetera. I sometimes wonder if some prog was kind of a result of people wanting to play music more like the early 20th century composers, while that style had gone out of vogue in the classical institution. In the case of metal, a lot of mid-twentieth century ideas came filtered through sources like horror movie soundtracks, which IMHO seems to be where death metal gets a lot of its chromatic and atonal ideas. (I've always wanted to write some proper serial 12-tone death metal, just have to wait to find the right band to play it with. Along those lines, Lutoslawski and Rihm, among others, come to mind as having a lot of great death metal moments.) |
Posted By: avestin
Date Posted: May 24 2008 at 10:38
Raffaella, I agree with you on the Rite Of Spring, it's fabulous.
If you want to listen to an Italian band that's been influenced in part from Stravinsky, then may I suggest http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=2811 - YUGEN
http://www.yugen.it/ - http://www.yugen.it/
------------- http://hangingsounds.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow - Hanging Sounds http://www.progarchives.com/ProgRockShopping.asp" rel="nofollow - PA Index of prog music vendors |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 24 2008 at 10:45
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I would compile such a list myself ... If my knowledge of classical composers wasn't that poor. Question: If I added some tags to RF, would you help me tag some albums? I could then make a page which lists all the composers, and the albums which they influenced. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: May 24 2008 at 10:58
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I would like to help you, Mike, though these days I'm busy on different fronts... I am not an authority on classical music, but I've heard my share of compositions (live or otherwise), and I'd like to give it a try. @ Assaf: Thanks for the Yugen suggestion  ! I've heard of the band, of course, and wanted to check them out, though lately music has taken a bit of a back seat in my life. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 24 2008 at 11:48
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^ there wouldn't be much work involved ... I guess that most of us know a handful of albums which are influenced by a particular composer. But the resulting list compiled from our combined knowledge would be really interesting.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 24 2008 at 12:40
Well Tokenrovel, I dpn't doubt your band may be influenced by Rite of Spring or by Beethoven, but that doesn't make them Prog Metal, to be Metal, they need to have ROCK elements before, and that's just not real.
Now, I believe you could draw a parallelism between Late Romantic - Early Modern Composers in Russia with Prog, especially with the Mighty Handful:
My two cents. Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: May 24 2008 at 12:59
being bald myself I have to point out It is not the "bad mountain" though, it is the "bald mountain" ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 24 2008 at 13:07
Sorry Jean, it was a Typo that I frequently make, I need glasses to read but the Progresive glasses i bought make me dizzy.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: tokenrove
Date Posted: May 24 2008 at 19:46
I'm in agreement with you -- I say that, for example, Shostakovich is death metal (at his most grotesque) only in jest (and, maybe, to encourage people into metal and prog to listen to some of these composers), but I do feel that the borders begin to blur as composers from the rock tradition start working in a motive-oriented manner rather than a riff-oriented manner. (Unless you feel that timbre is inescapably linked to the concept of genre... something that bands like Apocalyptica, to me, disprove. (I find it awfully frustrating when they're described as "classical".)) Cheers. |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: May 24 2008 at 20:12
| Heh. Along this line, apparently whatever Windows Media Player use to recognise CDs thinks that VDGG are classical. |
Posted By: KeleCableII
Date Posted: May 25 2008 at 02:25
| How has Stravinsky influenced prog? I'm not saying he hasn't or anything, I just want some specific examples. There isn't really any resources for this kind of thing. I'm not familiar at all with most classical (or whatever you want to call it) composers although I am really interested in those that influenced prog. |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: May 25 2008 at 05:27
just listen to Stravinsky's "Rites of Spring"; the influence is obvious. the contrast between fast and slow, loud and quiet. that is of course something you will get in most classical pieces, but what you don't get are those rhythms! they are incredible, and it is no wonder that this piece of music caused one of the biggest scandals in music when it was first played in Paris in 1911. half of the people booed, the other half applauded frenetically, and there were fisticuffs in the audience ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: tokenrove
Date Posted: May 25 2008 at 08:35
Just to note two bands off the top of my head... Magma have specifically cited him repeatedly as one of their main influences; there's a good interview on youtube with them saying this. I seem to recall an interview with Robert Fripp where he cites some influence from Stravinsky, although I remember him talking more frequently about Bartok and Schoenberg than Stravinsky. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 25 2008 at 09:42
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Alright, I added the tags. I even introduced a separate group for the tags: http://ratingfreak.com/home/music.xhtml?path=tags/musical/musical_composers/overview - http://ratingfreak.com/home/music.xhtml?path=tags/musical/musical_composers/overview I'll work on that overview page today - right now it just lists all the tags, it will list short descriptions of the composers too (including links to wikipedia) and the top tracks for each tag will be listed. Now, in order to contribute all you need to do is: - Create an account at RF - Submit the basic info for each album which contains tracks influenced by these composers - For each track assign the proper composer tag. The best way to do this is to - as soon as you assigned the basic infos - go to the "Editor" page - there you'll see all the albums you rated in a list and can assign specific tags more easily. It's probably best if you assign level "0" to the album first and then the proper level for the individual tracks (the small symbol to the right of the level buttons opens the track level editor). - You should assign level 10 for tracks which contain extended parts of the composer's work (or are cover versions), level 8 for tracks which are very clearly influenced, level 6 for tracks which are influenced to a lesser extent. Let me know if you have any questions, or if you know other composers which I should add. We shouldn't add all the composers there are though ... you should know at least a few rock/metal albums with clear influence of those composers. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: tokenrove
Date Posted: May 25 2008 at 10:21
Very cool. May I suggest Shostakovich, Prokofiev, and Dvorak, since I know a bunch of bands with direct quotes from those composers? I'm sure someone with more knowledge of the shred side of things would know a lot of Paganini references, too. edit: Also, when thinking about this, I remembered that Michael Romeo has said in interviews several times that he's influenced by Stravinsky (and more obviously, Rimsky-Korsakov and Holst). Also, he put a direct quote from Aaron Copland on the first Redemption album (so, Copland would be a nice tag to have, although I can't think of many direct references to his works other than that). |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 25 2008 at 12:52
I think just Prog will do - neither are actually metal, since metal is necessarily played using electric guitars
12-note music, please, not 12-tone - there is no such thing as 12-tone music
(Alright, I understand that's what some cultures call it, (including most US universities), it's just that the term 12-tone is so misleading that I consider it worse than using "Classical" to describe all orchestral music).
Anyway, the real point to this post is that serial music is so straightforward to write and hideous to rehearse that you'd probably be better off writing the music and recording it all yourself.
I've only heard one Prog band make it work in a rock context, and that's Shub Niggurath. I'd be very interested to hear your ideas - indeed, I would be tempted to have a go myself at such a project - once I've completed my current NWoBHM project, that is... ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 25 2008 at 14:30
I added Shostakovich, Prokofiev and Dvorak. I'll also add the other two later. Now all you need to do is to assign them ... EDIT: Improved the lists on the overview page ... they're now grouped by tag level. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: tokenrove
Date Posted: May 25 2008 at 23:12
To play Devil's Advocate -- what about Apocalyptica, as I mentioned earlier? Surely they're metal, not classical, despite playing on cellos.
Well, twelve-tone is the term Schoenberg used in his English writings. Twelve note is a bit more deceptive, IMHO... not that twelve-tone is a great term, but anything else I could have used is just as bad. How about "twelve pitch-class"?
I probably will end up doing just that, but I disagree that serial music is straightforward to write, or hideous to rehearse... just 90% of what's out there, just like 90% of tonal music. Stravinsky's late serial period is awesome, and it can't have been trivial to write something like Agon, or Schoenberg's op.42. Give me lots of time, and it'll happen eventually. ;-) |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 27 2008 at 03:21
Well, they play metal music - but they still sound like a string ensemble to me.
Schoenberg was German - the German language uses the word "Ton", which also means "Word" - it's quite a vague word in itself, and dependent on context. The English language is fuzzier, and does not grant that context - besides, it already has a perfectly good word - NOTE.
They're not "pitch-classes" - they are notes.
A note is a sound that is yet to be formed (ie, "He cannot sing a note", or He made a note).
A tone is a sound that is manifest (ie, She had a perfect tone, or You could tell by the tone of her voice).
The other use of tone is more subtle, but still manifest - a tone is a pre-defined interval between two notes. It is a fixed thing - a tone will always be a tone no matter what. However, a note is just that - an idea of what the sound will be, and nothing more.
Until performed, a note has potential - every performer will play it differently. A composer may make all manner of directions in order to express the tone that the note will acquire in order to convey his/her intentions, but the tone is only apparent during performance.
In serialism, we assemble a note-row (literally, a row of the 12 notes in the chromatic scale) - we have no knowledge at this point of any other properties that the sound will have - even the octave in which it is to be performed! The note is simply that - a note to let the composer know what comes next in the sequence.
Depending on how serialism is to be applied, further properties can be applied to the note, including changing its location in time (by using Retrogrades, etc.), its dynamic properties (ie, by applying total serialism rules, we can decide whether the note is loud or soft), the timbre (by moving the note to another instrument, if we're not too strict about applying the rules) - and so on.
This is merely how I've come to the conclusion - I found that the term 12-tone was inadequate, whilst studying music theory, and submitted this theory (in a greatly expanded form!) to various musical institutions - however, the reason so many people use "tone" in this context is because, like "Classical", it has become conventional in many institutions (particularly in the US, but not so much in the UK) to do so.
But now you're talking about real composers
Serialism in itself is trivial, as a composition tool - you could easily rattle something off that would take no more than day or two - once you'd worked out your note rows and stuff (the bureaucratic bit can take a while - especially when you're trying to be artistic with it). I always found more traditional styles of composition took much longer, because there's much less to predefine, and more to work out artistically.
I've always found serial music hideous to rehearse - many performers don't seem to "get it" until after they've heard a recording of the performance, even after weeks of rehearsal.
Still, YMMV. This is just what I've found through experience. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: tokenrove
Date Posted: May 27 2008 at 13:40
I appreciate what you're trying to do here with a set of less-than-precise words, but I think that pitch-classes are exactly what they are (pitches modulo octave). Twelve note is even fuzzier to me (for some reason it implies to me a bag of pitches rather than an ordered set of pitch classes), but I can't say that I've thought as much about the linguistic distinctions there as you have.
You might find that the terms used by Babbit and Forte are more to your liking in precision. I don't know what's taught in musical institutions, though.
But, surely you can see that the same is true of tonal harmony. Pick a key, pick a progression, derive a scale, and churn out as much as you want. Real artistry always takes work and inspiration, it seems. I've always found pitch-class sets (and serial-ish approaches) to be powerful, in controlling the interval content I want to use to express an idea, but no easier to use than functional harmony or anything else.
Yeah, maybe this will change as ears change. I find it depends on the backgrounds of the performers. I always figured death metal would be the right genre to do it in, since my experience with performers with death metal backgrounds, at least once they achieve a certain level of musicality, is that they're very receptive to highly dissonant, or harmonically unpredictable (not necessarily dissonant), music. |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: May 27 2008 at 16:21
sorry, Certif1ed, the German word "Ton" does not mean "word". it means "note", "sound" and "clay" ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 03:52
Can't argue with that, as a non-German speaker - I must have been misinformed.
It still backs up my argument that the German language supports the word "ton", and that (non-English, ie UK English) English-speakers have misappropriated it by using "tone".
OK, I'd never come across the term "pitch-class" - it wasn't used where I studied (Oxford) - it seems to work.
However, note is much more precise, if you think about it - the lack of order is exactly what we face when we begin composing - we are attempting to impose a kind of order (the music being composed) on sounds that have only potential, hence a degree of "fuzziness" is essential.
At the subatomic level, you can't be too precise - everything is changed by the observer
Depends on the institution, obviously.
I've never had much time for the babblings of Babbit - but Forte is not a name I'm familiar with.
Having Googled him it turns out that he was not publishing work while I was doing most of my study of this period, so that accounts for it. I imagine I'll disagree with much of it, since he's American...
Maybe it's just me then - I've always found that once I've created the cells, etc., the components I'm left with are, by definition, finite - unlike "functional" harmony (again, not a term I'd ordinarily use but I can see why you would), in which absolutely anything is possible - depending on the rules you choose to shackle yourself by (and compositions with "no rules" are generally rubbish - I use the term "shackle yourself" humourously).
Serial approaches are powerful - but intrinsically limited, which is why it's never caught on in a big way. Very quickly, everything starts to sound, if not the same, at least, extremely similar - you can spot it a mile off in performed works.
Indeed - I tried it once with a "technical thrash" band I was in back in the late 1980s, but could tell quickly that there was no way they were going to get it.
You may well have better luck now that musicians, especially in the world of metal, are actively looking around for advanced techniques that put them into their own niches and distinguish them from their peers. Undoubtedly, serialism - or rather, chromatic music (The dissonances of serialism need not be fully chromatic in flavour, as Berg proved) would suit metal (not specifically Death Metal) very well indeed.
I still think that metal bands would be much better off learning how to improvise as a group before investigating techniques - especially a primarily non-improvisatory technique like 12-note music. Precision in composition and execution is all very well, but improvisation is the key to music.
Without it, it locks itself into little boxes.
Too much, and people stop being able to get in.
------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: tokenrove
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 08:32
As I think you touched on earlier, too, I find form is essential in treading that middle path between the finitely deterministic and "no rules". (Also, I want to clarify that I'm only defending Schoenberg-style serialism; I'm not at all excited by serializing rhythm or dynamics.)
Although I'm still more a fan of composed music than of improvised music, I agree with you here. Musicians who can't improvise lack the soul of music, and can't be trusted to perform composed works. (but, then, I'm a fan of the idea that the performer should be trusted by the composer with a lot of freedom.) |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 08:45
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^ "Musicians who can't improvise lack the soul of music, and can't be trusted to perform composed works." Very true. I think the reverse is also true, and to generalize that statement a bit I would say that in order to be recognized as a musician you have to have a certain level of skill, be able to perform composed works and also to improvise at least to a certain extent - not so much totally free improvisation, but you have to be able to add your own ideas and interpretation to otherwisely fixed compositions. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: May 29 2008 at 06:21
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by the way: it was exactly 95 years ago today that "Le Sacre du Printemps" was played before an audience in Paris, causing one of the biggest scandals in music history, including fisticuffs. the newspapers titled the composition "Le Massacre du Printemps" on the following day
------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 31 2008 at 05:45
Bach, Mozart and Beethoven were all (rightly) renowned and highly proficient improvisors.
The greatest composers can combine improvisatory skills with deep study of technique and other composer's styles and formalise their own improvisations - to me, that is the heart of composition and why improv is so important.
Without study, though, improv can be like one of those pub bores that just talks and talks without saying anything - although equally, you can find very interesting people with plenty to say, even though it's clearly untutored.
It's obvious to anyone that's ever attended a lecture that a well-tutored and knowledgable person waffling at length about a complex subject can be incredibly boring, if they're a poor speaker. An inexperienced actor regurgitating Hamlet's famous speech can be truly painful.
But a compelling and well-practiced tutor, adding soul and conviction to a pre-written lecture, or a great actor that can bring out nuances in, say, a Shakespeare soliloqy is a joy to listen to and can move you emotionally in the same way as a well-performed well-composed piece of "Classical" music - or Prog Rock ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: May 31 2008 at 09:58
as much as I believe that Bach, Mozart and Beethoven were great improvisers, the "rightly" in this sentence seems not to be quite fitting since unfortunately we don't have any recordings of their improvisations (for obvious reasons, of course). so we don't have evidence of their improvisational skills; all we have is hearsay ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: scummyjob
Date Posted: July 26 2008 at 19:49
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Forgive me, but with all these posts, I have to point out
cdbaby.com/stravinsky
The Rite of Spring, arranged for electric guitar, bass and percussion, done as Prog.
So, Rite of Spring Prog? The evidence speaks for itself.
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Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: July 26 2008 at 22:30
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Bartok is the proggiest composer I have heard , subsequent to a comment by Robert Fripp who said (back in the early 70s) that Bartok's string quartets were some of the most exhilarating pieces of music ever written. I checked it out and I got to say that it can be very dissonant yet highly rich and lush. I saw a live concert of Bartok;s work in Budapest in 2006 and it was a mindblast! ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: October 19 2008 at 22:02
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: October 19 2008 at 22:05
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^He was a man of few words, but the words he chose, he chose carefully.
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Posted By: crimhead
Date Posted: October 19 2008 at 23:56
How short is too short for Prog?
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Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: October 20 2008 at 01:45
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Whenever somebody points to a particularly complex prog tune being undanceable, I invariably point out that The Rite of Spring, perhaps the most complex piece of music ever written (I have the sheet music, its insane), was written as a ballet. Some people just are not good enough dancers. That being said, I am officially in the Stravinsky for Prog Related bandwagon. Besides, the dude said, "My music is best listened to by children and small animals" Now that's prog....or maybe kind of punk, not sure. ------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">  https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: The Whistler
Date Posted: October 20 2008 at 02:01
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I dunno...I like the dude and all, but for something to be prog, doesn't it sorta hafta be...you know, ROCK and all? Isn't that half of it?
My vote for Bach then; that dude was insane. ------------- "There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson |
Posted By: tokenrove
Date Posted: October 20 2008 at 07:36
You should check out Kraanerg by Xenakis; it's a ballet, too. (I think the New Complexity composers take the cake for most complex music every written, but I don't know if they've written any ballets.)
Well, Stravinsky was noted for composing some pieces through juxtaposition of unrelated sections rather than using classical motivic development. His use of development over ostinati (like leads over bass riffs) and static harmony is also more "rock" than other composers before him. Plus, le Sacre is pure death metal -- Golem do a cover as the hidden track on Dreamweaver. (Okay, it's a pretty mediocre cover, but it certainly shows the piece could work as death metal.) |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 20 2008 at 12:16
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Stravinsky: genius, revolutionary, progressive, and 34872346 things more,
BUT,
ROCK????
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Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: October 20 2008 at 12:44
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He's not rock. Yet Tangerine Dream are far from ROCK and they're still classed as PROG. Likewise with many other bands on this site.
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: October 20 2008 at 12:46
Don't think anyone is arguing rock, just prog. But he composed for plenty of heavy metal.  ------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow"> https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: October 20 2008 at 21:10
Well if Stravinsky's going to be in prog related, then I nominate Gershwin for Jazz rock/fusion 
But seriously, I think plenty of composers have influenced prog rock and metal. Especially Bach. That Bach and those exceptionally metallic chords.
And for all those people who think that Shostakovich was a metal composer, I have a story for you. I've been learning a Polka from the Golden Age Ballet, and as I was playing it in my school's band room, one of my friends who is a huge heavy metaller said he found it interesting and wanted to learn how to play it. And it's not like I haven't played any music at all that isn't the least atonal, but that Polka is just something else. I think if I practiced it too much, I would probably go mad. ------------- 
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Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: October 22 2008 at 16:12
| Proto-Prog, definitely. Along with most other known composers in the western tradition from the renaissance onwards. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 22 2008 at 16:16
this site is not a prog ROCK site my friend.. you are well aware of that...*emoticon for wagging finger* metal ... electronica... RIO/avant... this is probably an addition that should happen... other site's have him.. it is about time this site does. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: October 22 2008 at 16:19
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The day I'll see classical music getting added in PA, I'll put my hat on and never come back... BTW, classical music composers wrote compositions...works...opuses...every artist currently in PA (and I bet my life those to come as well), whether prog ROCK or just Prog has albums. I suppose the persons who suggest classical composers to be added have found the perfect solution to add their opuses, especially since, unlike the albums, these opuses were/are interpreted by 1 million different interprets. Or will we add Bruckner's symphonies directed by Celibidache, Solti, Abbado, Gergiev, Kurt Masur, Mariss Janssons, Gustavo Dudamel, Gheorghe Costin (not to mention the Philarmonicas) and every single other altogether....? ------------- 
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: October 22 2008 at 16:21
You got a good point. If there is more than just Prog Rock, why not Classical Prog? |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 22 2008 at 16:28
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not classical music Vic.... but the progressive movement within classical... I know it isn't going to happen... so keep your hat on I think a section here on ...say.. the Russian nationalist composers of of the early 20th century, which had such a influence on what came to be be prog, would be a great addition for the site.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: October 22 2008 at 16:34
That's Better |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: October 22 2008 at 16:35
I fail to understand. "the progressive movement within classical"...have we lost sight of the classical music that influenced Prog Rock...are we now going into the "prog of classical"...and isn't the "prog of classical" still classical?! Even so, let's say we completely isolate the 'progressive movement within classical'. What is it made of? Is it made of some artists that formed a band? Is it made of specific albums that those grouped artists (officially) made? Or are we talking exactly about the classical music composer(s), who wroter opuses, whose music was played by numerous interprets, from the composer himself to three years old Chinese kids these days... Writing articles about "the progressive movement within classical" is perfectly fine...I could do it...Cert could do it...you could do it...but I believe we were talking about adding composers/classical music to PA! I'll let aside my idea of this being abberant, I'm just interested, for the moment, to know HOW we're gonna (or we could - or we would be able to) do that, exactly? -------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 22 2008 at 16:46
oh hell Vic... those are questions to be asked and answered IF this was ever to be seriously considered... by those who know that music best. My passion and interest...along with knowledge is on the jazz side.. not as much classical. The question at first is a simple one... should highly influential classical composers be kept out of the archives simply because they are not rock.... when as we all know.... prog... is MUCH more.. and not limited TO rock. If the site is open to that... THEN those kind of questions can be addressed... and not by people like me.. who outside of a few artists.. really have little interest in classical..but what I do have an interest in is the educational side of the site... and to me it stunts that when you ignore something that was such a big influence on prog. If M@X or the admins were open to it... then we could proceed discussing what it is made of. No one is propoing Beethoven or Mozart... but a narrow range of composers that directly influenced and inspired 'classic' prog. That is something this site has been a bit lax in promoting... the minute the site expresses an interest... we can toss out ideas. Mine... is not like a standard artist addition... but a clear written sub-section more for informational purposes.. maybe with some samples.. for those that are curious about the roots of prog.. the inspirations of those that made prog. Anyhow.. not sure if I'm making sense.. and have the feeling of beating a dead horse anyway. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: October 22 2008 at 16:58
| Let's just keep full-on western art music off this site.. to keep things simple |
Posted By: jimidom
Date Posted: October 22 2008 at 17:03
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Wait... Yes! I can see it now. Would it look something like this? Symphonic Prog Classical: Rachmaninoff, Hindemith, Ravel, Falla
Extreme Symphonic Prog Classical: Mahler, Stravinsky, Debussy, Faure
CIO (Classical In Opposition): Schoenberg, Webern, Berg
Experimental Prog Classical: Cage, Varese, Reich
Minimalist Prog Classical: Glass, Riley, Young, Adams
I am being facetious of course.  ------------- "The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - HST |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: October 22 2008 at 19:16
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I think it would be hard to put in a discography, though I think there are some Gershwin and Stravinsky recordings if I'm correct because they were around in an era where there were records.
How we're going to get around putting in a Bach or Beethoven discography is going to be a tough fish to fry. -------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 22 2008 at 19:21
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one option..which I mentioned.. is to not handle it like a standard artist addition... this is a reviews driven site... don't see many reviews... it would be more for educational purposes... more for the info... and streaming samples for those who really don't know the artists... discographies would be.. .daunting....
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: October 22 2008 at 19:56
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Either that, or Opusographies No, seriously, opi are very similar to albums, some longer than albums and some shorter. It doesn't really matter, because we're not actually reviewing the EPs/LPs, but the content within, and both opi and albums have musical content that is up for review. I think drawing the line at Pre-Modernism would be a good idea though. The site would quite literally be rammed packed and start getting utterly ridiculous. However, if Miles Davis is on the lists now, then so should Stravinsky. They both helped develop two sides of prog, Miles Davis for jazz and Stravinsky for the classical side. ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 22 2008 at 19:59
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and the other that really should be here.... Stockhausen...
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 22 2008 at 23:29
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Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: October 24 2008 at 15:30
Isn't it already? |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: October 28 2008 at 12:37
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: cmbs
Date Posted: May 06 2009 at 18:42
| I would have to agree, you can hear a lot of Stravinsky in Frank Zappa... who obviously had a huge influence on the direction of prog rock. I think it would be interesting if Stravinsky's work was to be placed in the prog-related section. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 06 2009 at 19:12
Why do we stop here?
Why not Bach, he's a huge influence for early Prog bands
Or Mussorgsky, Night in the Bald Mountain must be one of the musical pieces re-interpreted more by Prog bands like Aether, Fireballet, Par Lindh Project, and maybe more i can't remember now, not counting Pictures at an Exhibition recreated almost fully by ELP and Mekong Delta.
Or Copland, Fanfare for the Common man was re-created by STYX and 5 years later by ELP.
Or Peer Gynt, you can listen it everywhere, from Beggars Opera Act One to Rick Wakeman's Journey to the Centre of the Earth.
Please, we are talking about Progressive Rock, Classical artists have their own sites and charts, most of this guys are 100 years older than Prog.
Would be absurd to add them.
Iván
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: May 06 2009 at 22:47
This is true. -------------
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Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: May 07 2009 at 00:29
It's proto-proto-prog. -------------
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Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: May 07 2009 at 07:31
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I thought this thread died a long time ago... as for the Bach thing, I cannot name a single genre of modern music that he didn't influence. I mean, come on. He invented major and minor keys, all the cadences, blah blah blah... Before him all composers were just using modes and nothing but. ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 07 2009 at 09:35
 Iván -------------
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 07 2009 at 13:58
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Hi,
SWEETTTTTT ....
I keep posting and talking about things like this and how they show "progression" in music history ... and Stravinsky is really fine ... really fine.
Also very nice, if you get the chance ... grab Tomita's version ... it is amazingly good adn well done ... and it captures the trippy side a wee bit better for my ears.
Thanks so much ... this is appreciated and then some ...
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Posted By: himtroy
Date Posted: May 10 2009 at 19:38
| Rite Of Spring is very progressive and has provided with me some of the best musical journey's I've ever had |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 11 2009 at 05:08
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Ah, prog classical. Let's not leave out Holst and Debussy.
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: May 11 2009 at 05:37
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The main problem that I see with classical music is that it isn't published in the form of albums. For example, if we added Stravinsky then there wouldn't be a studio album entry for Rite of Spring ... instead we would have to select one of the various recordings of live performances of the piece. Apart from that, I think it would make a lot of sense to compile a list of classical influences and list them somewhere ... probably outside of the database, without the possibility to rate them. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 11 2009 at 05:46
You know that's rather interesting when you think about it. The recorded album is rather recent invention in the history of music... ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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