Tendency to 5 star rate....?
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Topic: Tendency to 5 star rate....?
Posted By: PinkPangolin
Subject: Tendency to 5 star rate....?
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 18:35
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I know the website pushes hard not to rate albums as Masterpieces (5 stars).... However.... Don't you find you have a tendency to review albums you like the most (because you want others to enjoy them too)? Hence, there is a tendency to have a larger number of 5 star reviews than it might be expected. This is especially true if you don't do many reviews (eg less than 50)?? I mean - why listen to albums you hate loads of times in the vain hope they might grow on you? pp |
Replies:
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 19:08
| I've wondered about this - am I giving too many five-star reviews - but I think it's what you say in your review that matters most, not how many stars you give an album. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 19:11
Absolutely PERFECT comment, dead on. Er... 5 stars  ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
russellk wrote:Posted By: micky
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 19:15
I have no problem giving out 5 clappies.. for excellence in Prog Archives posting..  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Darklord55
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 19:16
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Well, I'm very glad that I gave Opeth a chance and didn't dismiss them after first listen. There was a time I hated growling, screaming, grunting etc. etc. I started with Ghost Reveries and thought if they would just quit the death growls they would be a great band. But, I listened a few more times, got used to the growls, then started liking the growls. Complete turnaround!! They grew on me and now I'm an offical Opeth fan boy. The same goes for Porcupine Tree, Dream Theater, The Flower Kings and a few other bands. So there is always hope of a change given enough time to get what the band is trying to do. At least with me. I don't write reviews though. I would probably give out too many 5 star ratings. Like those listed above, I would not give any of their albums less than 4 stars and most would get 5. Just because I like them and completely satisfied after listening to their music. And really, compared to the mainstream crap that's out there, a "prog" band, any genre, deserves 3 stars just because it's leaps and bounds ahead of any mainstream music out there. Just my 0.02 worth humbly submitted. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 19:18
same here, liked the music on Still Life but not the growls.. now I love that record and let Akerfeldt do his thing |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 19:21
yep have a clappie for recognizing this stuff isn't pop music and you can't dismiss it after a listen or two.. and a bonus clappie for being an Opeth fanboy ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 19:33
    I give up on this topic. 5 away, all. Make us Amazon. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sQD8uhpWXCw" rel="nofollow - It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...Road Rage Edition |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 19:40
Because sometimes an album just clicks, and that is probably the single most satisfying feeling I get from all my musical explorations. I don't find an album I really hate and simply put it on time and time again until I decide I can't listen any more, but every now and then I do try and give something I haven't heard for a while and wasn't too impressed by, and occasionally this has surprisingly great results. Some albums have just needed to be listened to with the right amount of listening experience or focus to really produce results. Otherwise, russelk was dead on. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 19:55
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The charm can be very subtle and choose to seduce very slowly while at other times, its love at first hearing! Which is why prog is very much like courtship (Hence the Crimson King) , you need a couple a dates to see if you are headed towards Heaven or Hell. (Heavy Choir Mellotron background ) ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 20:11
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That was a swift capitulation, Finnforest! But you are an excellent case in point: I barely notice what you award an album as I'm always taken by what you have to say. Some reviewers only review what they love, and they will issue a preponderance of five-star ratings. Others will review a wide range and their ratings will be more balanced. I think we're a long way from Amazon. |
Posted By: febus
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 20:15
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Yes, too many 5 stars given by fanboys/girls including myself....Just checked my reviews,,,, there are a few albums i gave 5 stars...should only be 4!!! i guess i will ask PA if i can do something about it!
The problem for me is when i see a CD just released getting its 5stars by fanboy after just a few spins.....i think time is the essence of a good objective review , but who is objective here anyway
 I noticed fanboys/girls giving their favorite band automatically 5 stars for their good/great CDs and 4 stars for their crappy ones,....as long as it makes everybody happy
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Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 20:21
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Though not paranoid , I have always felt more generous in my ratings because I am one of those old timers who genuinely thought that the glory days were over and done with and that there never would be a prog renaissance. I spent a lot of time roaming thirsty in the arid Sinai of music waiting for the promised sound. A lot of younger fans never witnessed the near demise and hence judge with less historical perspective. I cannot help heaping 5 whatevers because I am reminded every day how intrinsically good most prog is. Just turn on the radio ...... ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: *frinspar*
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 20:35
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I was around a few years ago. But I stopped coming for no particular reason. Lost my password and my original user name in that time (same as now but without the * on either end) . I think the star ratings here are a little out of sync with the usual meaning of star ratings. At Amazon (since it was brought up), a toaster is going to be the same toaster in each household. A star rating system makes plenty of sense there. Prog is very subjective stuff to almost all listeners. An example is, I'm not really a YES fan. I recognize their talent and their contributions and their importance. But I wouldn't necessarily describe them - from my position - as essential listening. I'd suggest them as an important stepping stone for a new listener and let them make their own mind up as to the album's appeal. But I wouldn't give them a 5-star because I'm not a fan. I'd give them high praise for their accomplishments, but not what they do for me, if that makes sense. The star system on PA is something I pay little attention to. It really is what listeners say that makes a difference to me. I don't really see a 2-star rating (for fans only) as a bad thing. I'd see that as bearing the potential for high praise depending on what words follow to describe the album. There should be a random and meaningless ratings system implemented  I give 'Darwin!' 2 hamsters and a frozen waffle!  |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 20:35
I could have said it first and therfore that I would receive clappies from my dad. 
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Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 20:40
Which is exactly why I never use the term "stars" , I try to be humorous and give five "spinning tops" to a Wobbler album, for example ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 21:00
Russ, this topic just makes me so g'damn angry which is why I need to stay out of threads about it. I disagree so profoundly with this advancing disregard of the ratings. If they truly mean nothing to the majority of folks, then lets have Admin disable it and be done with it. Just have reviews without ratings. Maybe that would really be the way to go in the future. All reviews, no more ratings. I for one put much thought into the ratings because I take the site seriously and because i consider the average ratings useful in future purchasing. Guess what...the star ratings averages are only relevant if people make a good faith effort to follow the guidelines and consider things beyond their own self. Good reviewers consider a wide range of things beyond "i like this" when writing for a quality magazine, history, other bands, other comparable albums, etc. As mentioned, the star ratings on Amazon are useless because of 5 star syndrome. They will be here too if we don't have common parameters,and continuing the drum beat of "stars don't matter, only the review does" gets us there quicker. Do you guys really mean this honestly? . If people don't care about ratings then I've wasted a lot of precious time pondering them. Let's get rid of them if that's the case. My blood pressure can go back down then as this won't be an issue anymore. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sQD8uhpWXCw" rel="nofollow - It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...Road Rage Edition |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 21:03
hahahha. don't worry about that James... I proposed that.. and was laughed out of the collab area ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 21:27
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Humour & Laughter, James, are the greatest gifts AFTER prog ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 21:29
ahhhhh... no! ...  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 21:45
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my $0.25 (adjusted for inflation)
I would favor the "normal curve" approach, and maybe for those who want it, some statistical analysis of personal ratings...simply because I know that when I start putting up more reviews, it will be almost a competition to be stingy. In other words, to have a lower average rating than most reviewers. So I agree with Finnforest. With the normal curve, 5-star and 1-star ratings are quite rare, and 3-star reviews are the most common which makes sense once you've heard a lot of albums. I understand perfectly the tendency to rate/review albums you LIKE, naturally...but after some time it should level off, and some criteria should be established to level off the ratings. If you find yourself giving 5 stars to half of your reviews, then I think you need to become more tight-fisted and analytical.
edit: I'm also a big fan of the half-star rating (I believe Ivan was shot down repeatedly...?). That 4.5 option could relieve a lot of pressure from the full 5 and encourage people to give more thought to their rating as Jim said.
------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 21:49
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that is really the way to do it... of course my .25 cents is worth half that since I do my ratings differently than many.. and if I don't want to have too many 5 star reviews.. I review the albums that are not essential in my opinion.. and review stuff that people might find interesting rather than the same old sh*t that has been reviewed to death.. as most true 5 star albums usually are.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 21:52
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^ I like that approach too, and I can see myself doing that just looking at my "project list" of reviews... a lot of stuff with under 15-20 ratings that will get 3 well deserved stars from me. ------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 22:00
No, I don't mean to say stars don't matter, just that they are less important than the meat of the review. This is precisely because of the differences in approach even between the prog reviewers - one scatters five-star reviews liberally about the place, another is stingy. Also, the overall rating of an album reflects a great deal more than its merit. Some albums are denigrated because the're 'not prog' ("I'd give this album four stars on a metal site but only two stars on this site" is a common example) or are slapped with one-star ratings to 'counter the fanboys' (DT's 'Train of Thought' for example). In the end you have to read the review and take the overall rating of many albums with a grain of salt. That said, it's great when people think carefully about how to rate an album. I try hard to come up with a meaningful rating for each review I do. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 22:10
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I actually may be giving too many 4 starts these days. But I absolutely don't waste my reviewing something I'd consider 1 star. I have seen some falling into a trap of writing a little too much about their rating rather than more about the music. Something I've been guilty of, too. But then there's my pet peeve, people who give something half a star and round down. .5 rounds up mathematically, dagnabbit!
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 22:14
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I always wanted to just rate whatever you know to create a difference between the good and the bad, but unfortunatly the importance of written text and therefor reviews is regarded more important than opinions on what's there.
so I stopped carring about reviews and ratings as it's only a small fraction of albums that are known get reviewed and rating only is not appreciated.
I would love to just rate what I know, but if I do I get accussed of being lazy, while in fact I can rate 20 albums a day and can only review 10 albums a month, and I know 3k albums, so I can't review them all in this lifetime, but I can rate them all within a year.
choices. ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: May 30 2008 at 02:46
| I have been 'guilty' of giving a lot of 5-star ratings to the albums I have reviewed, though the majority my ratings are actually 4-star ones. However, in defense of my choice, I could say that in giving the top rating to an album I don't necessarily take my own taste into account (though of course it factors in, and very relevantly too), but also the album's importance in the grand scheme of prog things, or (in the case of PP/PR albums) its influentiality and/or likelihood to appeal to a prog fan. This is why, for instance, I gave 5 stars to albums I don't consider perfect such as Selling England by the Pound or Pawn Hearts. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 30 2008 at 02:58
You're very welcome to rate 3k albums on my website ... there the ratings and tags are equally important as the reviews.  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: May 30 2008 at 10:03
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To second Mike's post, I have about 500 ratings on his site, but they are mostly just ratings, with some with quick comments, versus full scale reviews. Granted most of my ratings are good or better, I do throw in a mediocre or worse on occasion. While on PA, I have only done 20+ reviews, because I try to do these as full scale reviews, which takes more time and effort, and more "intimacy" with an album. The one thing that I have tried to be fairly consistent with on my reviews on PA is to base my star ratings on this site's guidelines and I generally explain that in my conclusion paragraph. I suppose this probably shouldn't be necessary since the star rating should say exactly that, but I find in reading the reviews that sometimes the ratings seem to conform more to a 1 to 5 scale with one being the worst and 5 being the best, rather than what the stars are designated to mean on this site. Based on my interpretation of the site guidelines, a prog related album should never have a 5 star rating because how can a non prog album be a prog rock masterpiece. On Mike's site, I can give Led Zeppelin albums 10 ratings, but on PA, the best I can give would be a 4 star. This doesn't mean I don't think it is a masterpiece, but it is not a prog rock masterpiece. If it were a prog rock masterpiece, then the band should not be included in the prog related category. On the flipside, the same thing applies to 1 and 2 star ratings. 2 star ratings are for collectors and fans only. With my reviews, depending on the words this could be a good thing or a bad thing. For example, I gave Rush's Feedback 2 stars here, but a 9.0 on Mike's site. Yes, I am a Rush fanboy, and I love that album. It is a fun album. But as good as I think it is, it still is only something that I feel would appeal to fans of Rush and collectors of Rush. I suppose I could have given it 3 stars for good, but not essential but it just didn't feel like it applied. On the other hand, I have given both Opeth's Blackwater Park and Meshuggah's Catch 33, 2 stars. I really can't stand either of them, because of the growls, etc., but I can't say that they are poor and for completionists only, but to me I think that they are definitely for fans only. (Which again is kind of a catchall for most acts, since obviously if you are a fan than yes, their albums will probably appeal to you.) My point being that both what I consider a good album and what I consider bad albums both received 2 star designations, but the meaning of these 2 star ratings was differentiated by what I had to say within my reviews. On the other hand, the Fantomas album just got 1 star because I found it to be the most awful rubbish that I ever laid ears on, but I suppose technically I am contradicting myself because based on what I just said, it does appear to appeal to fans of that band, so I should have gave it 2 stars. I'm not going to change it though, because it was just that horrible for me. ------------- 
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Posted By: Gamemako
Date Posted: May 30 2008 at 20:45
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I was actually about to make a new thread about this problem when I saw this one. I think we should have an average rating and a normalized rating so we can really compare (because the average rating overall is probably about 4). ------------- Hail Eris! 
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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: May 31 2008 at 01:17
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Yeah, the easy answer - don't rate albums you love at 5 stars. Think of what others might think, where they might situate it, what your friends rate it as ; then write th review that others would. Hey, it's a personal thing. Who am I to tell you, for whatever reason, that you are wrong ? I make it a game to insert inane comments as to how Klaatu & Ange are underrated. Do I complain/whine/execrate menacing posts because most of PAers don't agree (yet). Not yet, any way. The true beauty in a review, or true truth (what a whatever you call something that uses the same sounds , blah blah) is in the words, the experience, the enthusiasim, or lack of, in the writing. Heck, read a fanboy's review, and do you go " I gotta get that Sepultura's album" automatically ? NO, you (hopefully) have more self control (and self-esteem) than that. So don't worry about the grades, man. Could it be that most here have enough of a smidgen of intelligence to read between the lines ???? ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 31 2008 at 05:30
What exactly do you mean by "normalized" - a rating which does not regard the prog status and/or genre? ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Gamemako
Date Posted: May 31 2008 at 08:29
As in, normalized such that the average rating is 3.0 and it is all moved along the average. Thus, the highest-rated album will become a 5.0 and the lowest a 1.0 and the vast majority of albums will be between 2 and 4. To me, ratings as a whole should fall in a bell curve -- 70% between 2 and 4. Only the notably good or notably poor get above 4 or below 2, and only the rare exceptions achieve 5 (See: Perfect Element Part 1) and the utter sh*t obtain the coveted 1s (see: Beyond Sanctorum). //EDIT: Out of curiosity, what is the absolute average of ratings at PA now? ------------- Hail Eris!
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 31 2008 at 08:32
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^ I agree on the bell curve - *if* all users would rate all albums there are. In reality users tend to rate the albums they like best, so the bell curve will gravitate towards 4/5. It's unavoidable ... after all, we can only rate albums we know well, and we don't spend a lot of time listening to stuff we don't like. Still don't understand what you mean by normalized though ... maybe what is done currently at PA with the weighted average calculation? ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: May 31 2008 at 08:45
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This is an old topic here, so I'll briefly make my old point:
Remember, our reviewers are music fans, not professionals, so we are reviewing albums from our own collections. Since most folks like most of the CDs they own (we tend to buy albums we already know we like, or can expect to like), highly favourable reviews will naturally predominate.
Plus, as noted in the first post, there is the understandable human tendency to want to share that which gives us great pleasure.
it will always be this way. When you really like an album, the only real choice in rating it is four or five stars.
Of course, i have long wanted PA to drop the numeric ratings altogether, but that's not going to happen (the vast majority find ratings useful), and it's really another issue in any case. ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: May 31 2008 at 09:53
To someone else's point that people can read between the lines and spot faulty rating....good point. I hope its true the majority of time but I think many people have been tricked by inflated ratings. I know I have...so I guess I'm stupid. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sQD8uhpWXCw" rel="nofollow - It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...Road Rage Edition |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: May 31 2008 at 10:20
Wow -- I really didn't think my post was so far off the mark, or so contentious!
   BTW, Finny, I have NEVER liked those "one size -- or five -- fits all" textual descriptors which accompany the ratings. They are just too limiting, and too open to interpretation. Effectively, they force me to use someone else's description in MY review. I have always been more inclined to view the ratings as percentages, or A - F "grades" (though I still tried to work within them, in most cases -- unless I specified otherwise, in my review).  ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: May 31 2008 at 10:49
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Pete, no need for the blackeye smiley, I wasn't rude to you. Just countering/debating where needed. As long as someone is trying to follow the descriptions in good faith and recognizes the importance, which you say you do, I have no problem.
------------- https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sQD8uhpWXCw" rel="nofollow - It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...Road Rage Edition |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: May 31 2008 at 10:59
^ No sweat, FF -- consider it replaced. 
I thought, though, that you were a trifle -over-analytical about some of my points, which still seem to me to be broadly applicable, and pretty much common sense. Fan site = lots of high ratings. Predictable, & unavoidable.
If I worked for a music magazine, I'd be sent lots of crap albums for free (and PAID to listen to them, & review them), and of course I'd rate them accordingly.
I simply don't own very many CDs I don't like. My music purchases are almost always informed ones.
And again, i have always had problems with trying to work within those ratings descriptors -- I find them to be much too prog-specific, and too limiting. I really dislike them (though I know why they are there).
Take care, pal. ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: May 31 2008 at 11:24
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I think you hit on an important point there. I do take this more seriously than perhaps I should, or than others do. I'm not here to simply rate my favorites that sit on my shelf. I buy, borrow, and steal (kidding) lots of other sh*t to review that I will never own, for the purpose of being a widely versed reviewer and music afficianado. I am certainly not interested in reviewing only titles that I like and I find that premise very stagnant and counter-productive. While Italy is a clear favorite, one look at my pie chart will show I make some attempt to be diverse. I may not be professional in the sense of being paid, but I'd like to think I provide professional quality content all the same (as do many of our fine Collabs). So when people are flippant or disregarding of the site's core importance (which to me rating recklessly certainly is), I take it more personally than I should. If we don't maintain high quality reviewing and rating, why would we be here, and why would others read us with so many other choices out there. Many of you say we're in no danger of that happening, but it starts by the casual diminishing of the importance of standards. I still maintain that "loose" reviewing and rating lowers our quality and relevance, so I'll have to push back on this as long as I remain here. If this makes me an elitist ass to some, I'll have to live with that tag My intention is only a better site. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sQD8uhpWXCw" rel="nofollow - It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...Road Rage Edition |