As for now, America top pwns everyone else, with Japan and Sweden close behind.

 

After reading most of this thread I remember why I almost never post in the prog music discussion lounge anymore, cause 90% of the people who discuss here are either stuck in the seventies, or have a problem with metal. Honestly, besides Porcupine Tree, The UK is one of the most regressive countries in prog right now, nothing coming out of the UK feels fresh and original compared to any of the Scandinavian countries or America.

 

And back to the matter onto who invented and developed prog - there is no dubbed we use the term "progressive rock" because it is the word that was coined to describe the style of bands like King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Yes and other british bands, who gained the greatest commercial success, also thanks to growing sensibility to more complex music in Europe and USA.

 

The success was also artistical, seeing at the list of most important albums, and we agree that bulk of the first ten or twenty of it was created by British bands. Ando also contemporary british prog is strong, not only Porcupine Tree or The Tangent, but also the great bands of neoprog are at their peak...

 

WRONG

 

This thread is about the UK giving out the best prog output, a year ago I would have said yes without hesitation, now it's the exact opposite.

 

(For all of you who say they were a copy cat band I suggest you pick up an album called Proto-Kaw Early Recordings From Kansas 1971-3 and see how much earlier some of the songs the famous Kansas recorded were actually written and hear how Livgren was using more experimental music with no synths or mellotrons)  

 

I would put up the recordings of Happy the Man against any band from Europe in the 70's as well.  They may well have the most Euro sounding of all the American groups. 

 

No we were not well represented in the 70's on record but the current wave of bands are as good or better than anything out there now. I put IZZ, Echolyn, Helmet of Gnats, Frogg Cafe, Umphreys McGee up as more of progressive band than PT.  The Tanget is an international band with a terrible singer so don't try to get British ownership there.  As for cheese there is nothing cheesier than Neo in my mind.  Galahad (British) anyone? 

 

That said it was the Britsih who popularized the sound.  Whether or not it is the best is entirely subjective. 

 

I am not trying cause a war but at I am least trying to defend and educate what was going on in the US in the 70's

 

 

 

Yes!

 

I wouldn't say that they're explicitly 'Euro' sounding - they created a very unique sound - but anyone who doubts the quality of '70s American prog is recommended to check out their debut.

 

Pavlov's Dog, as well. Pampered Menial, folks.

 

During the 70s the a lot of the music played on late-night radio and shown on The Old Grey Whistle Test tv programme was American - European and British progressive music was only a part of the 'serious' music scene at the time

 

I agree that much of the current prog produced in the UK is weak, but there is still some good music being produced (To-Mera, The Noun, Immune, Thieves' Kitchen, Whimwise, Secret Garden...)

 

Typical response from someone who knows nothing about them.

 

There is enough information on this site about thier "worthiness" look it up I am not wasting my time anymore.

 

EDIT

Here if this doesn't convince you nothing ever will:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCYIiHAhIdo - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCYIiHAhIdo

 

 

 

You're having too much fun. 

 

 

 

You don't need to insult either

 

To bad maybe check this out if that doesn't convince you nothing will:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCYIiHAhIdo - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCYIiHAhIdo

 

 

Best line of the day

 

 

In the progressive electronic branch, Germany has more credits: TD, Klaus Schulze, ...

 

 

Fair enough and thanks for checking it out. 

 

 

BTW what you wrote  is pretty much how I feel about Neo prog in general. 

 

 

I appreciate you took the time to look at the link.  That was from a show they did 6 months before Leftoverture was recorded and released.  I don't expect the rest of the world to like them but don't diminish their influence on people in the US how many people came to prog through them.  That is why they have a legacy here. 

As for the vocals remember this band started in 1974 (they formed in this lineup in 1973)  they pioneered that vocal sound even if you don't like them don't lump them in with others from the later part of the decade that, well, imitated their vocals and watered down the music and had a lot of radio hits. 

 

 

 

 

 

Certainly funner than game 4 of the NBA fianls. 

 

Damn  Celtics

 

 

 

 

Could you at least ONCE try to pretend to be a social human being and not insult a person because they dare not to agree with your superior knowledge?

 

Oh sorry... You said you don't know what to write without being insulting to people who haven't heard what you have heard....

 

I guess who the ignorant is... And not about music, which is just meaningless sh*t in the end, but about HUMAN LIFE.

 

What hegemony?

 

Have you ever counted how many British Symphonic bands are there and how many Italian?

 

Italian are 3 times more if I'm not weong, the problem is that most English speaking audience only care for music sung in their language and made in their continent, some great bands like PFM, Banco and Le Orme had to translate their albums to even be taken in account.

 

Just imagine Symphonic without:

Or a very prolific scenario as French Theatric Symphonic, with bands as Ange, Mona Lisa or Atoll.

 

So that hegemony is only popularity.I love British Symphonic, but I love Symphonic from othrer countries too, and if I don't get the lirycs, I search for a translation.

 

My 2 cents.

 

Iván

 

 

Most of it happened in the US

 

- Alan Watts album "Is This It", which is probably the first psychedelic album (released in 1962) was released in the US - although, admittedly, Alan was a British expat.

 

- The Holy Modal Rounders (US bizarre folk act) wrote the first song with "psychedelic" in the title, in 1964.

 

- Bob Dylan went electric at the Newport Folk Festival in 1965. This coming together of folk and electric was the kick-start for psychedelia - suddenly, anything was possible.

 

- The Warlocks (later the Grateful Dead) were the house band at the Electric Kool-Aid Acid Tests later in 1965, and set up in Haight Asbury.

 

- Jefferson Airplane opened the "Matrix" club in 1966, around which a huge underground psychedelic scene evolved.

 

- In 1966, the Byrds released 8 Miles High, arguably the first psychedelic single.

 

- The Byrds, Dylan and the Beatles met up, in the US and the Beatles released Revolver on their return to England. The influence from the US is unmistakable, even though Revolver is indisputably a Beatles album through and through, with a strong psychedelic edge.

 

- Also in 1966, Delia Derbyshire helped organise the first Million Volts Sound and Light Rave in Newbury, Berkshire. At a later event in this series (early in 1967), Paul McCartney unveiled the legendary "Carnival of Light" - his subsequently unheard electronic piece. Some of these electronic pieces were extraordinarily psychedelic, and made synths very much the things to have in bands.

 

- I'm still trying to find a decent British "pure" psychedelic album that predates "Hapshash and the Coloured Coat featuring The Human Host and the Heavy Metal Kids" (1967). 

 

British rockers Art were the behind the scenes force, and came from the legendary scene that, without doubt, was at the very root of Prog Rock.

 

Pink Floyd's "Piper..." doesn't really fit the bill - or any bill, come to that. It's psychedelic, in a big way, but it's progressive too - and pop and rock music to boot.

 

But the latter dates from 1967 - the height of psychedelia, not its inception.

 

 

It seems quite clear that UK Prog arose from UK Psychedelia/Underground, which in turn arose from US Psych - and the Folk, Blues and Jazz scenes before that. Most of these musical types originated in the US - or Africa, if you want to be pedantic about it.

 

1.- Kansas

2.- Anglagard

3.- PFM

4.- Focus

5.- Banco del Mutuio Soccorso

6.- Le Orme

7.- Triana

8.- Bacamarte

9.- Petrus Castrus

10.- Par Lindh Project

 

Against any almost British band except Genesis, and they are in exactly the same level, the problem ois that many people judge Kansas for Dust in  the Wind, and most of the people who do this, haven't heard Song For America or Leftoverture.

 

Iván

 

You are absolutely correct! I used the term "motored" and not "created" because american blues, jazz, gospel, rhythm 'n blues and soul were the sparkplug that fueled (that's the word) the Beatles, Who, Stones, Zeppelin, Cream, Kinks etc..... like you stated.  I also made the point that the rock explosion was worldwide and that prog in particular was borderless. Still is thankfully. We must also sadly remember that when corporations ran the industry , the US market was considered the Mecca of fame and fortune.  The US also provided the original synthesizer technology that would later be taken over by Japan. Best, no such thing , most prominent , perhaps the Brits have a slight claim there. But very wee, as they say.

 

I'd tentatively put it down to the Garage/Beat bands of the time, again, we're talking about the UK and US primarily, but there was a strong European scene too, of course.

 

A whole new area to explore - the Beatles were just the most popular band - not strictly Garage, but their fusion of skiffle (brought to the UK from the US by Lonnie Donegan) with Mersey Beat, and highly individual interpretations of classics really did put them in a league of their own in the early 1960s, and, of course, they toured extensively, especially (famously) in Germany.

 

As to synthesisers, the Brits and Europeans were deeply involved too - I mentioned http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7365120.stm - Delia Derbyshire above - and they weren't a particularly new thing; The Clavecin Électrique, built in France in 1761 has the honour of being the first documented synth, and a Swiss guy made a kind of electronic piano in 1867, 9 years before Elisha Grey created the musical telegraph in the US, and nearly 40 years before Cahill's instrument (the first significant electronic instrument) was unveiled.

 

It's true, though, that the real development of the synth was in the US in the mid 1960s - and it's also true that The Monkees were among, if not the first to use a Moog, on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pisces%2C_Aquarius%2C_Capricorn_%26_Jones_Ltd. - Pisces, Aquarius, Capricorn & Jones Ltd.

 

As for Prog, I agree that the Brits were most prominent, and undoubtedly first (it's difficult to hear the influence of, say, "Freak Out" on Prog in general) - although it's a close call;

 

It's a Beautiful Day and Eclection (both 1968) share many musical similarities (in terms of progressive techniques and approaches), but only Eclection branded themselves as Progressive Rock on the album blurb.

 

Interestingly, Ecelection got their name because the band members were from all over Europe, and had different musical backgrounds. A fitting line-up for the (arguably) first Prog Rock band, and a strong indication that Prog was a European thing from its inception.

 

 

As for the best...

 

Well, without wanting to appear biased, it has to be us Brits - the sheer quantity of quality Prog albums we put out there in the early 1970s - the top 50 on this site kinda speaks for itself, as it's dominated by British Prog from that time - 90% of the top 10, as I write.

 

My first taste of prog came through the great Italian bands of the Seventies, and I discovered British prog only a few years later, through some friends of mine. After a number of years spent listening almost exclusively to music performed in the English language, in recent times I have rediscovered Italian prog bands thanks to their # 1 fan here (not to mention future husband). Since he has a vast collection of RPI CDs, in the future I will very probably review at least some of them.

 

 

It can be objectively proven, as long as you have set criteria in advance.

 

 

Example statement, "Gentle Giant are the best at using contrapuntal styles of writing".

 

 

Here, I've set the criteria being measured as contrapuntal writing - which can be objectively proven by identifying the different contrapuntal styles and devices, and how they are used.

 

To do this, obviously, requires a working knowledge of Counterpoint - http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterpoint - here's a start . It's a simple concept, with complex possibilities and ways to measure it, especially when it comes to the "how they are used" bit.

 

For counterpoint, Bach is widely held to be one of the best benchmarks, and through a thorough understanding of what Bach did, we can assess other examples of counterpoint on the same terms - ie, we're not particularly interested to see someone rehashing Bach, but if the principles are used in a new way, then that can be interesting.

 

We can infer from this single measurement that, if complexity is a prized attribute of Prog, then Gentle Giant exceed and are therefore a suitable candidate for "Best" from this perspective, since counterpoint can be horrendously complex.

 

 

We can use other ways of measuring complexity too, of course - depending on what aspect of the music we are examining - and using a suitable benchmark. There's no point in restricting yourself, since music is limitless, but benchmarks are as good a way as any.

 

You can't measure objectively unless you have some degree of objective understanding in the first place - and you cannot truly understand how it is done (you might even believe that it is not possible) until you've truly explored and understood the principles.

 

But you can get ideas through simple study.

 

 

Sorry but it's the other way around... ask any of the British "Invaders"  who their influences were and you will find Little Richard,  Chuck Berry , Bill Haley,  Carl Perkins,  even Elvis.  These ROCK artists were the ones they were listening to in their early teens.  What the Brits did to good ol' rock n' roll  was to "Civilise" it by bringing schooled musical training into the equation,  more intelligent and introspective lyrics, even "STRINGS" for crying out loud.  The Brits took rock and prettied it up quite a bit. Made it better IMO.

Dylan... Folk 

Chuck Berry ...Rock and roll (i'll give ya that one... "My Ding-a-ling ... everybody sing!")

 

Peter Hammill / Van Der Graaf Generator

Genesis

Yes

Pink Floyd

King Crimson

 

Marillion

Arena

Fish

 

Then I have all of Rush and Neil Young, too.

After all most of us are descended from Brits not much more than 200 years ago.  Fuxi could be my cousin.

 

I'm sure it was the industry and the economy and the "Accents".