How important are lyrics in prog?
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Topic: How important are lyrics in prog?
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Subject: How important are lyrics in prog?
Date Posted: June 21 2008 at 10:33
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As for me, I don't care as much about lyrics as I used to, at least not in prog rock because it's a very instrumentally oriented genre. Lyrics are a very small part of the picture, and even though they do matter I think the letter of the lyrics aren't as important as how they're delivered and how they interact with the rest of the composition. For an example, let's take Deep Purple's Child in Time. The lyrics are extremely vague, but the way Ian Gillan performs them and the song starts with a very fragile serenity that erupts into an atmosphere of total apocalyptic destruction. It all works together so that you have to look at the big picture to really understand it. A lot of Hawkwind numbers (Be Yourself, You Shouldn't Do That) are similar cases - again, really vague lyrics that give some hints in the direction of what the song's about and the instruments filling out the blanks. Better yet, take a look at any cover song that keep almost only the lyrics intact. Of course this depends a bit from band to band and even from song to song, but still the lyrics alone tell you very little about it... a song could be meant sarcastically but you'd have no idea about that if just going by the lyrics. ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Replies:
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: June 21 2008 at 11:25
| I guess you're right. I never really understood what 'Firth of Fifth' or 'Mad Man Moon' were about. I suppose you could give me INTERPRETATIONS, but even then I wouldn't care too much. And still I find the former incredibly exciting, and the latter deeply beautiful and moving. The only problem is when really stupid or irritating lyrics prevent me from enjoying the song - as is often the case with the Flower Kings. |
Posted By: Terria
Date Posted: June 21 2008 at 11:36
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I'm not a lyrics person in general. I'm more into the delivery - the melody, harmonies, rhythm, timbre, and emotion. I could not care less as to what they actually say.
I do have 2 main exceptions though; only 2 people really write lyrics that I actually care about: Roger Waters & Adam Duritz. I also think Kevin Moore and Devin Townsend write decent lyrics.
That's my 0.02 cents...
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Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: June 21 2008 at 12:26
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Au Contraire The importance of lyrics depends on the band (and the album) as much as anything else. Good lyrical content can create a convincing atmosphere and set of ideas, or link an otherwise much less coherent piece. Poor lyrical content rarely makes things unlistenable, but I have to try pretty hard to get past it. For some bands (e.g. Uriah Heep and Camel, I'd have thought) the lyrics are mostly an irrelevance, for others (Van Der Graaf Generator, 'Waters-era' Pink Floyd) they are a huge component. Rarely, lyrics are an entirely crucial part of a piece. See Yes' You And I where the lyrical content combined with the brilliantly stark titles gives a completely different feel to what I feel the piece's conclusion would otherwise have had. More obviously, the entire Still Life album (VDGG) is on a very emotional and personal lyrical theme, searching for meaning. Without its lyrics for direction, I don't think I'd love it as much. Genesis songs such as Supper's Ready, Get 'Em Out By Friday and the entire Lamb album are essentially solidified by the lyrical choices. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: June 21 2008 at 13:06
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I think that lyrics in general are a bit of a blind spot in prog's rear view mirror, and agree with Toaster Mantis that the instrumental focus of the genre overcomes this shortcoming in the majority of cases BUT.... TGM:Orb is right when he mentions that VDGG without Peter Hamill's words would be a lesser experience and is also on the nail with Floyd, whose lyrics I rate much higher than their music post 'Syd'. ALSO... For what it's worth, I feel that it is largely irrelevant if the lyrics themselves are unintelligible to the listener in a literal sense, as their connection with me is limited to a very large extent by my subjectivity and intelligence (or lack of more likely) For example, much of the Italian prog movement's songs move me in an emotional way just by their delivery and texture/timbre and I don't even know a single word of Italian. (well apart from 'bella' maybe...) One band that I am told have fantastic lyrics are France's 'Ange' and it is of course frustrating for me who does not speak French, to be denied a considerably 'richer' experience when sampling their output. ------------- 
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Posted By: Statutory-Mike
Date Posted: June 21 2008 at 13:45
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I enjoy a lot of bands that don't write very deep and meaningful lyrics, like DT's new stuff, the lyrics are garbage compared to those of Images & Words, but the music is still all there and it's great. But at the same time, there are some bands that also write great lyrics like Tool. The lyics are great, some of the best I've ever heard but IMO the music isn't as good as DT.
Just my perspective from a prog-metal point of view. ------------- 
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Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: June 21 2008 at 13:57
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If they are good, poetic lyrics? Very very very important, especially in VDGG, Tool and Genesis. They also make the rhythm of vocal melodies more punctual, e.g. The Mars Volta. Their lyrics don't necessarily mean anything on their own, but seriously, they portray a melody perfectly. ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: June 21 2008 at 13:58
I disagree on the last one... Mastodon and Nevermore are why. I like their lyrics, but when taken as a whole neither band's music does anything for me. The fact that their lyrics are well-written but the rest of the music isn't actually means those two bands frustrate me more than a boring band with unexceptional or badly written lyrics ever could.
I happen to quite like Uriah Heep's lyrics, especially the song Rainbow Demon - psychedelic fantasy/SF is one of my favourite lyrical topics.  ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
TGM: Orb wrote:Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 21 2008 at 14:06
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nope... not at all.. .if I want good lyrics.. I sure as hell wouldn't listen to prog... the lyrics are often.. and most effective when they augment the music.. the best example being Yes.. and who gives a hell what Jon is singing.. but it fits the music to a T. If I want good lyrics.. I'll listen to something else... prog is about the music.. the lyrics are window dressing ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: 33rpm
Date Posted: June 21 2008 at 14:07
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For me certain songs I love I know and love the lyrics. Other songs I love I couldn't tell you one word that is sung. All in all I would say that for me the lyrics are only mildly important. ------------- Vinyl just sounds better!! |
Posted By: Terria
Date Posted: June 21 2008 at 14:08
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For me, this is what it comes down too.
Bad lyrics with good delivery and good music is tolerable and almost always enjoyable.
Great lyrics with bad delivery and bad music is un-listenable (I made that word up
 ).Therefore, the lyrics themselves are not as important as the delivery and the music.
IMHO
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 21 2008 at 14:10
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^ good opinion.. and the right one... it's all about the music and delivery... most of the sh*t that makes up prog lyrics is silly and complete rubbish anyway.. .Rush anyone?
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: June 21 2008 at 14:18
I've heard that word lots of time. Pretty sure you didn't make it up. ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: June 21 2008 at 14:24
| But let's not dismiss how good some of the lyrics from the classic era are. KC, Procol, even Yes at times, had great lyrics. As for more recent material, I have no idea what Mars Volta is singing about, which is fine because that continues in the fine tradition started with Yes' Tales. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 21 2008 at 14:26
oh sure... throw the Moodies and ELO in that as well...  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: June 21 2008 at 14:26
| Though I am partial to good lyrics, I recognise that they are not that important in prog, or rock in general. What really counts is the way the lyrics are delivered. Jon Anderson's lyrics, meaningless as they may be, are delivered so effectively that they become a perfect complement to the music, and his voice another instrument. Same could be said about the much-reviled Cedric Bixler-Zavala... I don't listen to TMV in order to hear wonderful poetry, but because I love their music, and in my very humble opinion their zany lyrics fit it to a T. |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: June 21 2008 at 14:37
Yeah actually I think the indecipherable lyrics are part of what makes them so good.
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Posted By: Kestrel
Date Posted: June 21 2008 at 15:22
| I'll never undestand the bashing of prog rock lyrics. To me, it seems the density of good lyrics within the genre surpasses most other genres (pop, country, rock, etc.). Genesis, King Crimson (perhaps only the first couple of albums), Jethro Tull, Van der Graaf Generator, Pink Floyd, Comus, Marillion, Pain of Salvation, Rush, Tool, and Yes all have incredible lyrics. I can't think of many other bands that surpass these guys (except for the obligatory Bob Dylan reference, I guess). Of course, the delivery and how it complements the music is also important (Genesis and VDGG being masters at this, imo), but these guys had important things to say and it seems to largely go ignored by their own fans who go along with prog critics saying that prog lyrics are sci-fi/fantasy rubbish and cold. |
Posted By: limeyrob
Date Posted: June 21 2008 at 15:26
| Good music is more important than the lyrics. To me the sound of the lyrics matters most which, I guess, is why I am equally happy listening to any language. Just as long as it sounds right! |
Posted By: Sacred 22
Date Posted: June 21 2008 at 15:33
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Many many years ago we had traveling minstrels and their job was to pass the news from town to town. I'm not sure how they could have done that without words. Lyrics are used for many reasons in music and they are very important in conveying a message or a mood etc etc.
If you listen to the words of much of the prog of today you get a very clear message that we as a species are in big trouble. Listen to IQ or the Flower Kings, Dream Theater or even some of YES's later stuff. Porcupine Tree also gives us warnings and I hope the words don't fall upon deaf ears. |
Posted By: Statutory-Mike
Date Posted: June 21 2008 at 15:49
I can see where you're coming from, but Rush's lyrics are not all that bad. I mean sure, there are quite a few that are ridiculous (ie: "I Think I'm Going Bald", "Tom Sawyer", "Working Man", "The Trees  ") But, still there are quite a few of their lyrics that really stand out like "Limelight" portraying living life on a stage, "2112", tells a great story, "A Farwell to Kings" is about corruption of our leaders, "Cygnus X-1" tells another great story as well. Just an opinion. -------------
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Posted By: Kestrel
Date Posted: June 21 2008 at 16:48
What's wrong with Tom Sawyer? |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: June 21 2008 at 16:48
You've answered your own question, kinda... lots of people think of sci-fi and fantasy as "not real literature", and because lots of prog rock (not all of it, of course, but more than in ordinary rock) has SF/F lyrics, they dismiss it out of hand prematurely.  ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: June 21 2008 at 17:35
If what these people mean is that scifi/fantasy isn't literary, they're mostly right. Apart from a few literary works, which get filed in the 'literature' and not the 'scifi/fantasy' shelves, the genre exists primarily as entertainment, not art. Nothing to be ashamed of: I'd rather move someone than impress them. That's why I laugh at the 'prog-snobs' (of whom there are, happily, only a few here) who argue that they are more intelligent than other music lovers because they like prog rock. The lyrics to most prog rock aren't exactly literary: we don't have an equivalent to Dylan or even Bruce Cockburn. And some of the fantasy/scifi stuff is appalling (RHAPSODY, for example). Lyrics in prog-rock are best when they are enigmatic, allowing the listener to use them as part of the soundscape. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 21 2008 at 17:40
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Sometimes the lyrics are just another instrument, sometimes they are incidental the music and other times they are the key to the music. In Prog we don't really have singer/songwriters where lyrics are the whole raison d'être and it is the music that is incidental, but we do have some good lyricists - people who can pen an interesting and though provoking lyric that don't sound as if it was lifted from the pages of a comic book or written by a love-sick 14yo adolescent searching for the rhyme for 'broken-hearted'. ------------- What? |
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: June 21 2008 at 19:30
| In most cases, they are not very important to me. There are some important exceptions, though. |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: June 21 2008 at 21:24
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Lyrics aren't especially important to me most of the time. Usually I can't even understand what they're saying anyway without reading them at the same time. If they're bad, they make me angry, such as Yes (although Jon's voice has much to do with that too), and if they're good, then that's helpful, such as Pink Floyd, but mediocre lyrics are no problem. Mediocre music is.
Er, what? ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: agProgger
Date Posted: June 21 2008 at 22:59
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Here's my take on lyrics: - Really bad delivery regardless of lyrics: I won't listen - Really bad lyrics regardless of delivery: I won't listen unless the lyrics are unintelligible - Mediocre lyrics, mediocre delivery: I probably won't listen - Good lyrics, mediocre delivery: I'll listen to it if I can actually understand the lyrics - Mediocre lyrics, good delivery: I'll listen to it - Good lyrics and delivery: probably one of my favorite bands Lyrics are moderately important to me, because I enjoy thinking about the music I hear not just from a musical perspective, but I still enjoy things like the Liquid Tension Experiment albums or extended KC instrumental songs. I think it comes from my affinity for also enjoying writing lyrics/poetry/literature myself. It's strange, because my major is kind of the polar opposite (computer science), but I'm kind of full of paradoxes -- for example, I needed a rest from what I was doing, so I turned on Catch 33 to relax, and it's working  Speaking of Meshuggah, I actually like their lyrics. You can find a lot of truth in observing the workings of chaos.I digress... So anyhow, it's no surprise that Tool, Rush (they DO have good lyrics -- I don't know what you guys are talking about), early Dream Theater, Porcupine Tree, and Pain of Salvation are among my favorite bands, but then you have some power metal cheese like Symphony X, Kamelot (4th Legacy is pretty hilariously cheesy, but still tolerable), and Sonata Arctica. I suppose Opeth's lyrics have never been their strong point either, but they're not bad. (I think it sticks out quite heavily that I'm more of a prog metal fan than older prog) ------------- Friend of the honest; enemy of the arrogant and closed-minded. |
Posted By: MonkeyphoneAlex
Date Posted: June 21 2008 at 23:27
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To me, music will always matter most. I see vocals as another instrument. If they fit with the sound you are going for or you have a message to get across to the audience, by all means use them, but they are certainly not neccessary. ------------- "Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom is not truth. Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music. Music is THE BEST." -FZ |
Posted By: T.Rox
Date Posted: June 22 2008 at 00:57
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I'm not all that fussed on what is going on with the lyrics in prog. It is all about the delivery of the complete package.
Many of the bands we hold high would not be there without the singer, but I sure don't know a lot of the prog lyrics off by heart as I do with much of the pop music from "the day". Every now and then I catch one of the messages in the lyrics and think, "I didn't realise he was singing about that". I rarely sit and study the lyrics that come with the album ... and they are getting a bit hard to read with CD's as I get older!
A singer who I feel is a little underrated and really added his voice as another instrument in the ensemble is David Byron from early Uriah Heep. Brilliant IMHO
 ------------- "Without prog, life would be a mistake." ...with apologies to Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: June 22 2008 at 03:40
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I'd like to expand this a bit: Are lyrics important for music at all? Let's take for example Bob Dylan: He may write great lyrics, but his music is, to be honest, very bland, and it hardly reflects the lyrics, or very superficially only. He should in my opinion stop making music and stick to poetry instead. This can be said for most songwriters. How about classical music? Are the lyrics important there? Well, I would say in opera they obviously are; that's what an opera is all about. Let's go to another art form, the lied. Are the lyrics important there? The answer again has to be "yes". Take Schubert's "Winterreise", for example; it is impossible to fully understand the music without the lyrics; they are a perfect fit. So what about prog then? Are lyrics important there? Indeed they are. Can you honestly imagine a song like "House with no Door" by VdGG as an up-tempo prog metal number? Well, perhaps you can, but only as an extremely weird parody. It is, however, also true that most lyricists in prog are not exactly poets. But nevertheless the meaning of the lyrics should go along with the composition, else the result is not enjoyable at all. Some bands like Hatfield and the North often wrote silly lyrics, which was a perfect match for their music. The same can be said for Guru Guru, though in their case you usually have to understand German (or even the German dialect Bavarian, in which drummer Mani Neumeier sometimes sings). -------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Kestrel
Date Posted: June 22 2008 at 03:57
| Another thing about prog lyrics that I like a lot is that they often tackle subjects that pop music won't, or I feel they do a much better job of it. Also, prog rarely has a love song, which I find to be a usually boring cliche of most pop music. |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: June 22 2008 at 05:23
I could name thousands of prog love songs. ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: June 22 2008 at 05:27
Lyrics are something you discover on the internet 30 years after listening to an album and getting them wrong - and go "Ahhhh - so that's what he was saying.." 
-------------  Prog Archives Tour Van 
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Posted By: Harry Hood
Date Posted: June 22 2008 at 10:18
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It depends on the artist really. In the early days, prog lyricists could be seperated into threee catgories. there were the storytellers (Peter Gabriel, Neil Peart), who combined mythology and literature with their own ideas to convey some sort of moral or message, then you had lyricists like Roger Waters and Peter Hamill, who wrote lyrics that were very introspective and personal. In these cases the the lyrics were oftten written before the music, as the message was just as important or sometimes even more important than the music. Then you had the third category, artists like Gentle Giant, who generally wrote the lyrics after the melody, and more often than not chose words that were the easiest to rhyme and/or sing. If you're doing a four part vocal polyrythm, you don't want to be singing words that slip off the tounge awkwardly, which is why we have lyrics like "all man in each man/she can see she can". I think modern prog has some of the best lyrics, because they more often than not combine elements of all three styles. On the Spock's Beard "Making Of" documentaries, when Neal Morse is writing lyrics, he usually has a general idea of what the songs about, but when he has a few ideas for what line should come next, he'll sometimes pick the lyrics that make sense, or he'll drop those in favor of something that's easier to sing. ------------- 
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: June 22 2008 at 10:24
you are definitely wrong on Gentle Giant, as examples like "Knots" or "Black Cat" show. those lyrics were clearly written before the music ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Weston
Date Posted: June 22 2008 at 10:39
?? I really enjoy "The Trees" lyrics. They seem to predict our (the US' anyway) current politically correct insanity of holding back achievers so that no one gets left behind.
I find Neil Peart one of the best lyricists in music today with memorable lines like "Pin the donkeys on her tail . . ." from Superconducter about the state of the entertainment industry. Or "Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled" from Territories. Then there's Losing It which never fails to make me tear up a bit.
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Posted By: Yorkie X
Date Posted: June 22 2008 at 11:02
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I'm into poetry my idea of a good prog band must value the lyrical aspects as much as the music, if the lyrics are flawed it will affect my over all view of things.
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Posted By: Yorkie X
Date Posted: June 22 2008 at 11:04
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Posted By: MonkeyphoneAlex
Date Posted: June 22 2008 at 11:10
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I'm going to try to streamlne this debate a bit and pose the question - Do lyrics accompany music, or does music accompany lyrics? ------------- "Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom is not truth. Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music. Music is THE BEST." -FZ |
Posted By: Weston
Date Posted: June 22 2008 at 11:26
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Ideally the lyrics are inseparable from the music and the concept. For example, I always felt that in Tull's "From a Deadbeat to an Old Greaser" the first 2/3 of the song is one long run on sentence similar to the cliche' beatnik writing it is referencing. At the very end Ray, the protagonist, rejects the reminiscing old beatnik as being before his time even though Ray himself is out of date. It's a brilliant concise storytelling moment that few mainstream pop songs can rival. Of course there's nothing overtly prog about the song other than it's run-on structure without the usual verse / chorus.
I think many prog lyrics play with words, making intricate verbal acrobatics the same way the music makes rhythmic and motif acrobatics. Gentle Giant did this a lot, and more recently King Crimson as in "You have to be happy with what you have to be happy with," or "The world's my oyster soup kitchen floor wax museum." These word games fit perfectly with the music and I wouldn't want it any other way.
Forgive me for being a prog snob and finding these lyirics more interesting than pop hits like the current Katy Perry hit "I kissed a girl and I liked it . . ." or even hits from 250 years ago when Handel's most famous lyric went something like, "Halleluja, halleluja - halleluja - halleluja - halleluja - halleluja - . . .etc."
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: June 22 2008 at 11:30
I recommend to listen Richard Strauss' opera "Capriccio"; it is all about trying to answer the age-old question if "prima la musica, poi le parole" ("first the music, then the lyrics"; title of an opera by Salieri)) is correct or not ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: June 22 2008 at 11:33
Very good question ! As I said in my post of yesterday evening, I think in the case of most prog bands or artists it is the lyrics that accompany the music (with some notable exceptions, like VDGG, but they are admittedly quite rare). Conversely, in the case of singer-songwriters (a great Italian tradition btw) it is the music that accompanies the lyrics, so unobtrusive as to be almost non-existent. |
Posted By: Weston
Date Posted: June 22 2008 at 11:40
Granted this is a false rhyme with "fled." Rush does have the embarrassing habit of using false rhymes. It doesn't bother me to anthropomorph the trees though.
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Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: June 22 2008 at 11:59
Great point there, and it's also why I no longer evaluate lyrics outside the context of the music. (with a couple of exceptions)
That is pretty much self-explanatory, because prog is already by definition (as a Platonic ideal, at least) higher-concept than pop so it's not surprising that the lyrics usually follow suit. ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: June 22 2008 at 12:07
or Peter Hammill's "You Can't Want what You always Get" instead of "You Can't always Get what You Want" by< the Rolling Stones ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: sean
Date Posted: June 22 2008 at 17:56
| depends on the band: for bands like Van der Graaf Generator or Rush, I think that the meaning of the lyrics is very important. However, for bands like The Mars Volta or Yes, the most important thing may not necessarily be the meaning of the words, but how they sound. Sometimes I find it better to ignore lyrics completely (newer Dream Theater for example). |
Posted By: agProgger
Date Posted: June 22 2008 at 22:05
Yes. Err... what I mean to say is, both. I think a big part of enjoying music is understanding what the person set out to do with it. With Dream Theater's later material, they didn't work on the lyrics at all (or so it seems) -- they just wanted to rock out, save for on Repentance, which is great, and Prophets of War, which I loathe. The number one thing that gets me with lyrics is this: Bad lyrics that were written in such a way as to make you think that the author thought they were great or thought provoking. This annoys me to no end, and it's why I hate Prophets of War so much. Also, there are some parts of Pain of Salvation lyrics that annoy the crap out of me because they're so pompous, arrogant, and mislead, yet they think they're so smart. They're usually pretty good, though. ------------- Friend of the honest; enemy of the arrogant and closed-minded. |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: June 22 2008 at 23:15
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It depends. If the lyrics are important for the plot or something, then great, but if there are just random songs, it depends of the song. Usually i only REALLY dig song sung in portuguese, since i can't REALLY find THAT beautiful poetry in other languages, except mine, with notable exceptions.
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Posted By: Jozef
Date Posted: June 22 2008 at 23:57
| Although I agree that prog is very much based on musicianship, I do think lyrics help due to the fact that many prog artists tell a story through their lyrics and music together. Especially on the longer pieces, we end up having epic surreal lyrics which are just as enjoyable. Although Atom Heart Mother can prove that point wrong as well... |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 04:14
I quite agree with this... in my experience, bands (and people  ) who try way too hard to cultivate an intellectual image usually end up looking much more stupid than those who don't give a damn. I know it sounds a bit ridiculous for a prog fan to say this, but this is what turns me off most newer prog bands. (as in, formed in the nineties or later) This is one of the things I meant when I said in another thread that music has gotten way too self-conscious for its own good within the last 20 years. ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 11:11
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I must also add... if lyrics have a very explicit message I strongly disagree with and they're not meant ironically, then I of course can't bring myself to like them in more than a detached academic sense.
------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: Real Paradox
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 11:41
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If you ask me, I would certainly have to respond that lyrics are a crucial part in every music genre, although in some genres they're less predictable to be more involved in uncanny, intellectual, slightly philosophical and self-reasoned components. But in Progressive musical genres, since they tend to be more experimental and turned on by the complexity of the composition, those who make the music tend to think that the complexity and intelligence of the lyrics need to correspond to the same complex structure of the composition in hand but end up making non-sense. But in some specific prog cases, that does not happen at all... For instance, when we talk about; Dream Theater, Fates Warning, Symphony X, or even a more complex math prog band called The Dillinger Escape Plan; we think of high technical performance/epic traits and low lyricisms and/or low criticism/controversy level. But when we talk about bands like; Pain Of Salvation, Porcupine Tree, King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Uriah Heep, Van Der Graff Generator, The Flower Kings, Gentle Giant, Radiohead, The Moody Blues and The Mars Volta; we perhaps make a more plausible assumption of their lyrics, just for the reason that they are casual yet extraordinary, or they have the ambiance and the poetic touch the non-lyrical bands lack, furthermore, they may have political, social, philosophical, compensative and sometimes containing big fantasies(reminiscent mainly from Power Metal bands). And to conclude this, I must say that each case has its own functionalities, qualities and flaws, and we must not restrain the prog lyrics and consequently say that they are not as accomplished as the lyrics that the other bands make... ------------- What is This? It is what keeps us going... |
Posted By: darksideof
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 15:51
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I say Yes and no! YES because growing up and becoming a prog fan as a young teenager I was interested to learn and know what he heck the bands "that i love "were talking about
 . I was born in the Caribbean where Spanish is the only spoken language and prog fans are hard to find, but once I came to America I was forced to learn the language and my urge to the bands lyrics urged , it took about 4 years to really getting anI dea.No! because once I knew the language I still couldn't figure out what they were taking about ( Yes for example)an some were dumb and nonsense, ( the mars Volta, Zappa,)
also, I would say no because I still have friends back home that are huge prog fans and don't speak a word of English. ------------- http://darksideofcollages.blogspot.com/ http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/ https://www.facebook.com/pages/Darksideof-Collages/ |
Posted By: Astrodomine
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 16:23
| I don't really care for the lyrics, they add a great dimension for the concept, but English is not my first language and very often I don't take the time to understand the lyrics of a song. Even when I listen to a french (my native language) song, I don't put many attention into the lyrics. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 17:11
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Generally, I find lyrics to be an important part of the music. I can only listen to music which is all instrumental in small doses. Maybe that is a part of being a Rush fanboy, or maybe that is why I am a Rush fanboy. That being, I love all of Rush's instrumentals, but there is generally only one per album, except for the 3 on Snakes and Arrows.
It is generally the quality of lyrics that make me prefer prog over other forms of music. But also as a general rule, when listening to non-prog bands I prefer those with good lyrics over non-prog bands with poor lyrics. Neil Peart is my favorite, but other good examples would be Arjen Anthony Luccassen of Ayreon and Neal Morse with and without Spock's Beard.
Do I listen to all of the lyrics all of the time? No. Do I understand what they are singing all of the time? No. But when I can sit down with the lyrics and read along while listening, it is definitely far more enjoyable when the lyrics are good compared to when they are not.
There are exceptions to all of these thoughts however. There are certainly bands with wonderful lyrics that I don't like, and bands with horrible lyrics that I do like. This is either because I like/don't like the music to go with the lyrics, or most likely, I don't like the vocal delivery of the lyrics.
I find that most of my thoughts and answers apply because I am not a musician, but see Ghost Rider's answers above and although she is also not a musician, her answer is completely the opposite of mine. (Although since she is also a Rush junkie, I imagine that there must be at least some interest in what Neil has to say, despite what Micky has to say about it). Therefore, I guess that it just comes down to personal taste.
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Posted By: Guitar1Jesse
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 17:23
| In my own songs I often find the lyrics and vocals sometimes hinder the music and I end up dropping them out and making an instrumental. I would say that if the song needs lyrics, then they better be well written, otherwise why are they there? try omitting them... I hear a lot of songs that are vocally driven with poor lyrics, mostly from the last decade or so. A prog band with amazing lyrics is Magellan. |
Posted By: darksideof
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 18:28
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an Excellent none Prog band that lyrics are waht make them important is U2 bono is poet that write beautiful lyrics. ------------- http://darksideofcollages.blogspot.com/ http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/ https://www.facebook.com/pages/Darksideof-Collages/ |
Posted By: khammer99
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 23:28
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One benefit of lyrics, at least to me, is during the course of the day, someone will say something that matches a particular song phrase, causing me to remember the song itself. Not too many people are humming prog songs causing the same reaction. Seriously, I believe the music and the lyrics go hand in hand, in conveying the feeling or tone, emotion of the song. I think this particularly true with metal. ------------- Genius is always allowed some leeway, once the hammer has been pried from its hands and the blood has been cleaned up. - Terry Pratchett |
Posted By: Fleetway
Date Posted: July 17 2008 at 23:34
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What ive always liked with progressive rock is that it can tell a story without words.
So no, i dont find lyrics that important. especialy not in this genre of music.
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Posted By: soggybomb
Date Posted: July 22 2008 at 22:59
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it really varies, but in general they just have to be delivered well and not cheesy enough for the listener to be unable to look beyond them.
------------- Without music life would be a mistake. ~Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche |
Posted By: OzzProg
Date Posted: July 26 2008 at 17:31
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My brain doesn't even bother picking up lyrics, even if it is A Capella, i just hear the melody.
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Posted By: The Cracked Sky
Date Posted: July 26 2008 at 20:06
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I don't listen to the lyrics. I'm a HUGE prog fan, i can't think of one song that i know all the lyrics to.
BUT! i go ape for vocal harmonies. listen to Moon Safari, you'll know what i'm talkin' about~ 
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Posted By: Cactus Choir
Date Posted: July 27 2008 at 06:14
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Music is much more important than lyrics to me, so long as the lyrics aren't actually embarrassing. I love Yes even though I haven't a clue what Jon Anderson is on about most of the time. ------------- "And now...on the drums...Mick Underwooooooooood!!!" "He's up the pub" |
Posted By: Big Ears
Date Posted: July 31 2008 at 05:59
| I didn't think I listened to lyrics and then I remembered that I don't like Sigur Ros. |
Posted By: Dr. Occulator
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 20:55
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Lyrics are as important as a band's fan needs them to be. If they're important to you than you pick a band that does it for you, if they're not important you still pick a band that does it for you too.
------------- My Doc Told Me I Have Doggie Head. |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: August 08 2008 at 03:11
A question: How objective or subjective do you think matters of taste are? Just curious. ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: Dr. Occulator
Date Posted: August 08 2008 at 14:11
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That question covers a wide gamut of possible responses. I think taste
is a fleeting entity that is in constant re-assessment as time goes on.
In other words I may be more 'sympathetic' to a point of view on one
day and more 'cynical' on another based on conscious and unconscious
reactions to everyday stimulus.
------------- My Doc Told Me I Have Doggie Head. |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 04:16
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Interesting idea, this thing about not having much control over one's tastes and preferences, or at least that some of it is up to outside stimuli. It also reminds me: I remember reading a newspaper article referencing a scientific finding that the biggest factor in people's musical preferences is their first language.... no, not as much what language we prefer lyrics in, as in that the scales and rhythms we prefer are those most common in the everyday speech patterns of our respective first languages. So there might be something to it. However... is it possible that tastes and standards could react to outside influences both conscious and unconscious, but still follow the rules of this internally consistent set of principles? I mean, just because you sometimes are in the mood for upbeat music and sometimes in the mood for downbeat music (to pick just one set of opposite traits) does not mean that you change your mind about whether one is objectively better than the other. ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 07:49
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I value bands which write good lyrics beside their good music, but bad music can't be saved by nice lyrics.
If the music is actually good only very offensive/primitive lyrics can turn me off.
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Posted By: Dr. Occulator
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 07:51
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i concur.
------------- My Doc Told Me I Have Doggie Head. |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 11:05
I guess you're no fan of Frank Zappa, then. ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: YesFan72
Date Posted: August 11 2008 at 22:43
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I don't pay attention to lyrics most of the time, unless something odd stands out at me. It just all blends in for me. Lyrics that can be offending don't offend me. It's the music that matters.
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